will have to struggle. and we are better equipped than most to do it so that's all i will say about that. >> thank you very much you can sign the book thank you for a wonderful evening. [applause] >> we are often in denial of that what i discovered in my own research with the meritocracy because everybody is treating in the same way. and with that kind of logic to

deny inequality. >> and with the culture from the new yorker now as a technology reporter winning the award for distinguished the us with other giants that appear often on cs one - - cnbc and msnbc please keep line to the right. [applause]

>> i thought there was going to be 20 people here. [laughter] like a fireside chat. [laughter] >> and with a congressional hearing. >> i will not curse tonight, i think. you should probably start off reading something and if you have read any part of the book. >> thank you guys for coming. i've been too many events at the bookstore and a person

needs to go on a run to hear. [laughter] for thank you for coming. this is very nice. so a section about venture capitalists. [laughter] and then capitalism. [laughter] thank you for your service. [laughter] do you think yourself as a therapist in brooklyn? [laughter] that's a little strong for the intake session but i caught myself following venture

capitalist on the microblogging platform wasn't an act of self care. venture capitalists were discussing universal basic income and i cannot look away. with the economic potential as icebergs melted and with that uninhabited ability and specifically the question if they are china word own it and to see artificial intelligence and then to focus on the art. and if they would inspire a revolution and that is a venture capitalist ruling and pottery classes once they were automated out of a job. talking like nobody we knew

and how to do the enlightenment and those economic theories to's complex social problems and the builders mindset and how to find a generating ideas to have more things to talk about despite the advocacy of open markets and the regulation they cannot be relied upon through the nuance of capitalism. the structural hypocrisy from a smart phone and that they were not protest the kaleidoscope of startups if you want to eliminate economic inequality wrote the founder of the accelerator. every anti- capitalist person

and then like rome or athens or antiquity send your best scholars in the most eminent people in your generation for all the networks that you need. the venture capitalists that may be because of your laughter. and those followers to stay humble and be healthy they said and drink less travel and meditate and find your wife. preach the gospel of 80 hour work weeks whenever they denigrated the idea of work life balance and with that startup of success how many had the executive assistant, a

personal assistant. i couldn't imagine making millions of dollars every year choosing to spend my time through social media there is almost the those to their internet addiction i just thought e-mail each other. [laughter] and the access no way to know which venture capitalist of identity politics and where that was going. and those entrepreneurs that could not scale and perceive themselves as digital how else to look at those identities and ideologies and investment strategies of people transforming society the people i was hoping to make rich.

[applause] >>. >> i don't know how many in the folks have read, and i'm thinking about and the wide-eyed approach so what happened? so from the beginning did you

actually come in as optimistic as we see? >> wide-eyed is definitely a good description. there is 2012 and then i realize people make money in their jobs and this is a revolution to me. [laughter] so for a long time and for a long time i really wanted to believe it. the intricate dance self-delusion. like a game of solitaire. so we think that this isn't funny to me the way people speak and that corporate frailty because it has to be funny or is terribly

depressing. but i didn't think about writing about it in a critical way or to criticize gently i think i read the demesne as part. the venture capitalist do not get a break. [laughter] but they can take it if they can take it is the vc they are just the middleman. [laughter] we are both open-minded individuals just a structural position. >> a lot of the criticism that i hear that new yorkers are coming in and with that approach so if your criticism

is unique to how things work around here? if you are in publishing before like that spinal tap. >> yes. absolutely. i think this is inherently interesting and to necessarily identify that in the workplace. i don't know i necessarily would have written a book about book publishing. >> and then it goes through the chapters.

>> but book publishing that they are socioeconomic to have that set of norms with the social relationships you need to have to maintain certain professional ambitions in this might be what it is. >> like twitter. except your career advancement could be dependent on who you have dinner with on a thursday. [laughter] so that is decentralized. so i think that yes, i just

remember there are people. >> go for it. [laughter] >> but the reason i wrote the book is that i felt there had not been a ten the first person narratives about this particular era. there has been about previous eras that write a similar bench point of entry level employees. and people keep asking me. >> so you work in tech. but with my list and fire your staff there is a lot of

literature about tech to reflect my own experience there is a lot about those common experiences. >> my next book is focused on book publishing. [laughter] >> so then initially it is still a jump from publishing. and i guess i wonder as a skeptic if you buy what they

are selling. and i think a lot of folks , with a certain skill set that a lot of it is what you are trying to do and accomplish. >> and the feeling of being in a mission. >> the first company i went to work for was the e-backs products one - - e-books but it was the e-reading up i think initially for the iphone that was like a library. and i had reach out because i read on the paris review blog that this company raised

$3 million. >> i like that. [laughter] >> that's i get my business sense. [laughter] so $3 million was like oh shit this is the future that looks one - - netflix in books and i want to do that. >> a ton of money so for the venture capitalist i'm sure they are cringing. but we don't know anything. [laughter] so i figured the book expert i wrote a lot of e-mails i love

books i know it's annoying to you i have to keep asking what the backend is but i am a reader and you need someone like me on staff. they didn't. [laughter] but they were kind about it and said there's a company in san francisco you should know about it with this analytics software to see how people were using the app to do very minimal not even analysis just data collection. the people who make the software is a startup fewer than 20 people, and rocketship i was thinking i want to be on a rocketship. [laughter] so i think this could potentially make the list and three years. i know. so then i went and interviewed at this company that makes the and it analytics products and

that is that. sorry if you like it's a job interview. [laughter] >> so i guess you were inspired? and then you get into it and that side i mission. at least in the beginning. >> yes. yes. i was not a journalist at any point and tell like last year. but that skepticism and cynicism i wasn't reading a lot about the tech industry to have that cynical start or

that you won't believe what the young billionaire did on monday. the same thing he wears every day. seventeen of the same outfit. [laughter] but we haven't talked a lot about book publishing but in that industry everything was a dead and now to be a 20 person company and now to matter and feel useful but i was also contributing in a way that kept the momentum going. was doing customer support it wasn't like the geniuses here to build infrastructure. [laughter] but it felt that it was less of the mission of the company that we are doing something with small business people that i really liked and it was working. we have this organization of 20 people run by 24 or 25 -year-olds it just kept getting better and better. this is my pitch for the small

start up so i was really down for that momentum not that this will make the world a better place that this is fascinating that i personally find this product interesting to sort of justify it as my sociology. [laughter] but i don't think i ever thought data collection storage analysis unbeknownst to the user, god knows where it goes that's making the world better. but i think this is an industry that emphasizes the individual so now individually quite useful and great in a way tied to the collective effort but also not that data collection is part of the broader economy.

we weren't having the conversations. >> you don't talk about those larger implications of what you are doing. >> you're working for your customers. and for that flow to achieve whatever goals and everybody makes money and you make money when they make money. but the feedback, the thing that you help to make even though it is helped people use it but it is helping us make money. that feels great and it feels great to be like oh are you having a problem with the software? let me tell you how to fix it. when you have knowledge about something it is amazing. [laughter] i can fix your problems i could never fix anyone's

problems. >> there is a lot and there but the hierarchy of customer support is always very interesting to me. and then to go there. >> so soft scales in hard

scales it is very interesting and that not technical enough and to show more credentials and then used as a cover for the penetration of certain inequities and with that racialized dichotomy. >> so that and then considered soft skill jobs it is incredibly hard if you find someone who can currently

write about data it's harder than for the engineers to find a mid-level engineer. but i think that engineering skills are the primary focus that they are oriented that obviously cannot have a product without it. i get it and with the internal hierarchy that can leave people feeling like second-class citizens. so it can influence the way. >> no. i like to appreciate you

laying that out so now we can compare a little bit like now for what should be the most prized. with that fundamental assumption in the wake of whatever. >> why it is concerning to me it is a confliction you need to value like american capitalism. but this idea that your personal worth is directly correlated to your economic output or contribution and value in the marketplace. and that there is something morally superior of engineers having a certain mindset or

value system. and it resonates. i guess it leads to our hierarchy but also leads to the mindset that is very optimized to the bottom line. is not the humane approach. >> and that and the ceo challenging and interesting.

with those issues for our leaders here. at least at the time was he an avatar for problems in leadership and tech and how do you perceive that? >> so that second company i was 24 when i joined and then 25. i think it's incredibly hard thing to do to run a company

if you have dependents or whatever. i do not any new one - - envy anyone in that position. and those that are growing up at the same time that they are learning how to be a ceo. and the reason i don't name companies or executives is that i feel that behavior institutionally was the structural position more than any other failure within that framework. >> so not to be corny, offer a

puzzle for people to solve. but it is a common leadership style with those incentives of the business model and then to illustrate this if you like i'm walking around of these readings with my own book like an american girl doll. [laughter] here i am with my book. [laughter] so i think it was in new york someone came up to me after reading where i talk about how early members of my team went to conference room who are the

five smartest people that you know? write their names down. and then why don't they work here? [laughter] why would they work here? it doesn't make sense there's so many other useful things to do in the world why would my friends who are in graduate school actually they probably would make their way to check but why these people who are smart and talented why should they work at this analytics company? i guess i don't know my compass in life i'm trying to figure this out and get health insurance. [laughter] but those that work here has economic value. so. >> but that can go on.

>> this is the anecdote that i am telling. [laughter] >> i totally do. i feel like i should have a one line answer for everything. somebody came up to me after this and say the same thing happened to my company and that you need to say this was déjà vu for me i can't believe it is happening in must've been on the blog post because then to write down the names of the people that i know totally unrelated. so i feel like there is a thing that happens in the culture with the intellectual culture that i would call

anti-intellectual. and that people read business advice with the turn of accountability and attend of responsibility to their employees and here is how you can scale to get good people for the core team to set the tone for the rest of your company and now asking for the smartest people they know are we will pay between five and $8000 to recruit i tried so hard to get those supportive people. [laughter] so yes, the industry has values and you can speak to this as well. maybe you have seen this it's called super punk available at

this bookstore and signing afterwards. [laughter] i think those cultures are shaped by the business model and with the venture capital see a privatization of scale and whatever coupled with that libertarian spirit of the industry that has been incubating for 30 or 40 years or 50 years and you get this weird cultural product with over consideration and research i don't know what i'm talking about i'm so sorry i could just go anywhere. [laughter] what is the question? i'm so sorry c-span. [laughter] >> so it's fair to say if

there are parts of that experience that you take with you and i appreciate that. and and to do good for the road. and then to take way from the time in the book.

there was a lot i appreciated working about tech i'm not sure in my thirties i word appreciate the same things and to have the right yearnings but yes in my twenties and when it meant. and then in my twenties not knowing anyone and what i admired and appreciated the camaraderie and the commitment that people seem to have autonomy that's part of the

problem that they don't necessarily have the authority. but there seems to just replicate those structures that exist externally. i think that there was one more thing i really did enjoy. i think it is very earnest was someone vacillating with the detached mockery and deep pain for earnestness. [laughter] i don't know if you can relate. they might be wrong but i genuinely believe that they

are doing good for the world and what is missing and that the problems are systemic and curious what you make of that with you reporting on huber one - - huber but i don't actually know do you feel that other people say to have this crazy culture and that it should exist. but if you don't have that culture then that's fine. >> do you see that as your strategy? [laughter] do you see that structural

explanation it with the industry that could potentially be forgiving but then to boil down how all of this works and then invest in the company, and whether that is revenue or something so then you have to start doing things. [laughter] and how this works. and then the incumbents and

the reasons for doing that stuff. >> just to go back to my own argument. people are in the same structural position that are not assholes. >> but you have to be a jerk? >> i am sweating right now. and then this phenomenon and with that disillusionment.

>> they are all eating from that trough. [laughter] you can wallow in the this gnarly. and then in the next part of this. and then tech is back so where we going? >> this is great leverage for me in my future career as a futurist. i said working for google. [laughter] >> so that is a gentler

narrative for me right now not that tach is bad but boring and unimaginative. and what i mean by that is there could be so much more. and then to be a much more interesting and vibrant and creative industry. and to be more experimental. >> have you not heard this? it is it hard. and that some are bad and they are doing bad things. but i feel there is so much we haven't tried yet. so this generation is so rooted in the past.

i want to say it is exceptional in any way and then those that are related like privatization. in data collection and the reliance of ad networks that is hyper customize and the obsession was scale. likes modify to one - - spot if i to wipe out. >> we are getting an emergency alert. [laughter] i'm sorry. so i guess i just feel we have to shift the structural of

every incentive. for those that that highest and with that society i also feel that there is a lot that is happening in industry that is very cynical and with that spirit of circumvention that i don't mean to pick this out but what a friend of mine say says, sorry i'm choosing the two path. it is hugely useful to me is constantly running late. and to take public transportation. and then to circumvent

participation. but then it has marketed itself as the alternative to a college degree. part of that rationale is you can get a job very quickly that pay is extremely well. and that too will occur in getting a degree for him english. >> and that's the chip on my shoulder but that crisis here makes it so hard to live you have to orient your entire life toward having your

education to get you a job and that is a social failure that is not what education should be necessarily in the functional and enriched society with a student debt crisis that a person would want to launch themselves into a different career track to avoid debt and pay off their debt but that is to circumvent those who privatize but i do think things have to change and to be less exciting. >> it is hard because salaries will be way bigger so is just

part of the illusions and then maybe they are just content with the status quo. >> you work add a newspaper. [laughter] . . . . [laughter] , but i do think that the value scale in actually some things are better experienced at least

given on a spiritual level but also on the social level as processes, something that builds over time that is a collective effort that is reliant on i guess to the earlier question about technical versus publishing like this is an example if used before and i feel like i'm becoming a windup doll. continuously changing the idea you push your product whatever you iterate. i'm not in the industry anymore -- when your book is done is done and there is a reason it takes so long and you have the two copy editors go through it and send it to friends and you have eyes on the prize because

when it's done that's it. you don't want to rush back and expedite certain things so i don't know where i'm going with this. i guess this is my sense of the book in a bookstore. [laughter] but the product presents certain they'll use of the industry and our culture doesn't necessarily value slowness or small-scale small businesses. look at your cities, look around. it's not just a tech. i think it is an amplification of a social moment. >> there are a lot of people here and i would like to get a few questions and start thinking of a few last ones.

[inaudible] why are all tech people [inaudible] >> not all tech people. [laughter] >> i have a section in the book like when i need to stay awake and i can't drink any more caffeine i need to get pumped before doing anything that needs me to be. [laughter] you can tell when i was really blasting it.

i think edm there's an energy and i think it can be made quickly. there is someone in the audience i would love to ask [inaudible] >> it is much easier if you live in the city and i feel like that is happening all over but it exploded in 2008. that also coincides. speed to [laughter] there is an amazing profile that

i could be wrong. it's incredible that explains someone that's never been to a concert and probably couldn't withstand the drugs required to have fun. [laughter] anyway, i'd recommend reading that. >> another question for a friend what would it take to get them to question the techno- solutions and philosophies that really undergird meaning the technological determinism which i think about it in the solution

to the problems. >> he has problems for the solutions he created. [laughter] but even if i don't beat up on him i think the largest thing is the answer to the problem is more of what we were doing and the underlining assumption here is that is not true and i guess i'm just wondering if that will change worries that direction where we are going? >> if i knew what could change their minds i would be so wealthy i wouldn't be here. i would be rolling in money. [laughter]

i think in facebook defends they have unprecedented problems to deal with. it does exist and will continue to and he will continue to lead the company. what does that mean for facebook to ethically and responsibly deal with itself and for me it has to be a question about content moderation and just because you can offer to a video doesn't mean you should be able to come up the same with youtube. what would it mean if you had your content moderators full-time staff of full-time benefits and mental health benefits if necessary if you pay

them a living salary and invest in research to the repercussions are the experts for all of the places where facebook exists. if you are taking those steps and i don't really have a diagnosis. to invest in the solution i think there would be the total collapse but for the consumer business side to discourage participating to get in option for who the data is shared with i suspect a lot of people wouldn't care and people would also care and this could lead to the erosion of facebook and he would get a sort of nice social platform where people post

articles. but i think that it would mean the collapse. this sort of solution mindset of the question that comes to mind is to whom and what kind and at what cost. but there is no incentive for people to behave differently and for mark to be like it would be great if we spend all of our money making our contractors full-time hires so then the question becomes what are the letters that still exist and i think they are incredibly minimal we have the regulations and then the collective of people inside of the companies who might say we don't want to work on something or push for

whatever policy. to organize them in any way then it becomes a question of what are the things with health insurance or something to do with facebook paying them a fat salary so i think that these are all bigger questions than any one company or industry. >> [inaudible] does anyone have any questions from the audience? i would love to hear what you all are thinking about. i was curious if you had any

response to [inaudible] into some sort of a bridge does anybody reach out to you in a way that married the sort of views that people were not expecting? >> people that i've worked with or -- >> anyone. >> a lo >> a lot of people have reached out and that's been interesting and exciting. i've heard from people nothing has surprised me actually, i guess i'm just sort of surprised i think whenever you write about

its two political but i think it surprises me when people reach out and think i have the same situation except i worked on a different company in a different year and that's to me underscores my point that these are systemic issues but i still remain surprised by that because it is a personal buck. you want to believe that these things only happen to you. >> i don't know if that is a satisfying answer to.

>> a big part that you stressed about in the book is the use of experience and how it's not going well and [inaudible] [laughter] i don't think that age has much to do with it. i think it has more to do with the values attached to it. technology moves quickly.

it's surrendering itself obsolete and people are always excited about the youth but i think that the industry also has a sort of ahistorical slant that if you are working in politics or the industry you would probably want to do the resear research. it's for different reasons, it is anti-institutional and such. obviously we can get into different things. people that behave in certain ways that are 18 and indistinguishable, we know someone that is a millennial or acts like a baby boomer, but i think that people will respond to that environment in a lot of ways, so it's complicated. i don't think there is an answer.

>> it amplifies that quality for sure but that has more to do with the business side is my guess. >> can you talk about the time when the functioning of the book and changed? >> the book comes out of an essay that i wrote that started out as a book review and antidotes to my wife and i wrote to entertain my friend. when i came out, i enjoyed writing it to have a bigger project i had been taking notes and how to approach my work like that as an object of the literary inquiry.

it got more attention than i thought it would and that is when the e-mail started so that was gratifying and then the e-mails started saying you've articulated something that was unsettling to me. i figured i would write about it in ten to 20 years. it was a running joke that you're going to write a novel. so then i put it on the back burner writing over about the technical industry and reflecting on the news as one does and then after about 2016 election i had a feeling that i had been experiencing was going to change.

i had been operating under the assumption that this is what it was and it was going to continue forever. people would be there and the same values would be there and this was sort of inevitable forever, super articulate. and then after it felt things were going to change and it felt more urgent to write about it because i felt i could no longer take for granted what was there and i think my own feeling about the industry started to shift and coincided with feelings about my job shifting and i was doing my content moderation at the time when a lot of right-wing material surfaced in the game sort of felt like it was over for me. i don't know where it is going or if i believe in the endgame.

and i don't know if it is worth it. probably i should go to law school. it's not that they were not attainable. not to be too arrogant but i think this is an industry that if you believe that you try and give arthey were a white woman a college degree and in a liberal arts university you are rewarded for nothing. my personal feelings shifted shifted in ways i didn't

anticipate. >> i was wondering if it was a conscious decision they depict this industry and this is my experience. the others say this was all based on real people so i wonder if it is a complex decision. the other one was the fear of silicon valley and savage news. this is a what he just industry

they really don't like criticism and they are not used to it either. i thought about writing a novel and my feelings was nothing is coming to me here in if they and any fiction no one would believe me and coming from that positi position, people would ignore it or undermine it in some way so it was important to me that it not be misread as satire because there's a lot of stuff that is funny but its documentation just saying how things were and how they speak could be misread

kerrserious, nonfiction don't le the new and i wanted it to be a personal story and reported knowing my own strengths into staying in my own lane kind of thing. but yes. i'm just ready to talk for an hour or a lot of those books i am curious as you were recalling the stories do you remember some of these things are nostalgic?

that's an interesting question. it's kind of sad. they useful document for me was my e-mail and this thing happened afterwards like what do you think this means, should i be worried or excited about this. the conversation has happened over two drinks. am i about to become an executive? i felt like i was reading a book about my excitement and enthusiasm for the industry and increasingly reading my own disillusionment and frustration and anger and a lot of ways.

in 2017 and 2018 in the world and of the industry and friends of mine i knew i was so close to it but i have to try to be detached and was the most emotionally honest it would take a while for me to understand for the insight into position. so, i guess i feel great affection and frustration.

we have to treat it like a research project and we will see it wasn't until he interviewed some former colleagues that i got really mad and that is just who i am as an ambivalent potentially cowardly person that i'm trying to get a benefit of the doubt even in the conversation protecting people were protective of people who don't deserve it and wouldn't do the same for me, not that they have to be reciprocal. talking to other people about shared experiences were institutions into their experience was enraging but again these are not my stories. i hope at some point in my journalistic work it's not necessarily the specific stories

but it's what i can highlight as a journalist. but i think that it was more sorting through the emotional stress of being in my 20s. >> let's get one last one. i'm wondering if you find more meaning in your work now as a journalist and if so, why? >> that is a good question. >> i do. i think that, but i don't want to say not that journalism is a more meaningful career than being a product manager, i think that for me i have found work that feels like something that makes sense for me that's

interesting and exciting and i think a lot of what was exciting in the first place to meet me interested in being a constant state of play, and play into staying in the industry it's like a stay in your own lane kind of thing. that is meaningful to me, that i don't think that there's any sort of empirical value to one or the other. but yes, i don't know. >> that's good. >> do you ever wish that you were? [laughter] >> i feel lucky to have found a

place that makes sense right now. i don't want to take it for granted. >> everyone please give another round of applause. [applause] thank you for coming

it would be profoundly wrong that the united states was founded on slavery. no, it was founded on other principles and high yearly, principles of liberty and self-rule that have been discovered and defined and enshrined in the efforts of several centuries of european and british and american history. these foundational principles would win out in the end but not without much struggling and striving and bloodshed. the united states enjoyed the miraculous birth articles and product of an untroubled delivery. few things are. i wrote these words before the publication of the project but i suspect you are all somewhat familiar with that sits on the idea that america was founded on

slavery and a project that we are told we will be producing and distributing materials for use in american schools to promote the idea. absent the countervailing argument from the books like mine there is now a genuine danger that part of the education will be the teaching into slavery of makeup and dna as a metaphor they use a. in less then that would not only be false, but pernicious. book tv in prime time.

now we would like to highlight programs from the archives that focus on pandemics. in 20001 booknotes, science journalist talked about the history of influenza specifically the 1918 outbreak. here is a portion of that interview. >> i never really tho