it's a pleasure speaking with you. the book is quote out the thick," and i wish you all the best. >> guest: thank you so much. this program is available as a podcast. all "after words" programs can be viewed on the website, booktv.org. ..

>> thank you very much for coming. [applause] thank you everyone we are delighted you could come this afternoon i am delighted to be here in san francisco where the most beautiful cities in the world particularly to talk about jeffrey and john fremont to had so much do with the creation of california's we know it and so much do with the creation of san francisco as we know it. i got into san francisco to 30 this morning from a delayed flight from los angeles a couple of sleep in the airport hotel and then woke up again because i was to be picked up by a car and driven to do a live radio thing. the thing about live radio it

begins at the very exact time going through san francisco traffic. [laughter] is you really will not make your exact time. so's to be 8:00 a.m. pacific to be there for the national radio at 8:00 a.m. i am still on the road in the back of the car creeping up the freeway at seven or 9 miles per hour. but i'm looking out the right side of the car and san francisco bay is out there. and i missing my deadline which is horrifying for a journalist to do. but i'm thinking this is the world of fremont. [laughter] for better or for worse and to seize any opportunity to get here and delighted to research the book it would give me

excuse to do some research in and around san francisco. the story of the marriage and they are ambitions and adventures when the united states was deeply divided and in danger of coming apart. teethree refers to when some had outlawed slavery and others embraced it it also refers to the marriage of the very unusual couple who strove to accomplish and achieve all that they could in that very divisive time and they played a vital role. john charles fremont was and explore, man who the 18 forties and fifties with a series of expeditions started in st. louis missouri the city that has no consequence as a us army officer women to maps

the oregon trail and went out route one - - west again and again and ended up by chance in california to be intrigued and then with the mexican control territory to begin the process and to make it a part of the united states. >> as and explore he did not discover what was new traveling across the land traversed by native nations for centuries that are explored by spaniards and for trappers. he didn't find much that was new but codified he made that accessible but more important

coming back east to washington where he was based in washington dc to write accounts of his adventures. his job not really to explore the west but to promote the west to entice settlers to move to the west because that was part of the process to take over the territory to ensure part of the united states. in the process of promoting the american west the 18 forties and fifties he also promoted himself to write these accounts of the avengers us official army reports describe the landscape of the rocky mountains in the oregon trail in the basin that he that and compasses several other states.

also to describe california very beautifully and he became such an extraordinarily famous and admired individual through his writings and apparent achievements there was a magazine that name john fremont is one of the three most important world historical figures since jesus christ. it's kind of the american centric list the first was christopher columbus who discovered america and to establish european contacts would be a better way to phrase it the second was george washington the founder of this country and then john c fremont who got on the list and his role in reputation as the conqueror of california

and to the union and the united states. to have real talent encourage and fortitude and real accomplishments but the most important factor may have been the person who makes it possible for him to take full advantage and jesse benton fremont his wife to make a few choices for themselves jesse found a way to chart their own course the daughter of a senator to provide her previously unknown husband entrée to the highest levels of government it is no coincidence a few months after they eloped 28 and 17. i thought as many others did that jesse benton fremont was

the better man of the two. she helped to write those famous reports serving as secretary in ghostwriter and to amplify the talents to working with news editors to publicize the journeys and then to promote friends and lash out at enemies and carrying on was senators twice her age and then you want a political force in her own right. and her timing was as perfect as her husband's and pushing the boundaries of women's assigned roles just as they were beginning to demand a larger place in national life. and those four voting rights

and slavery. and then to fight the expansion of slavery to capture some of their energy. in 1856 the republicans for the first time nominated presidential candidate and in seeking someone heroic with the short political record to bind their party together to nominate john charles fremont the first nominee ever to run for president on the republican party ticket the anti- slavery candidate. and jesse became part of the campaign the has-beens campaign literature was song of praise for jesse women attended campaign rallies even though they couldn't vote

republicans flocked for a glimpse of john on the balcony and then refused to leave until they saw jesse also. madame fremont, jesse, give us jesse a newspaper said she could've been elected queen. she achieved the celebrity much like her husband's with the same out of proportion to her, schmitz unless we kill her husband's fame so with our modern story with a rugged wilderness challenges but also stream of fame the time when the news media was expanding when it was flourishing and then the fremont's put themselves in the center of it all. so the first thing that had to happen for them was the actual

exploration the mapmaking of the west. john c fremont had a reputation as a fearless adventure that surmounted one difficulty after another. although in reality and erratic leader. a couple dozen may be more in st. louis to head out into the wilderness and in 1842 the first expedition went up the oregon trail that is now wyoming and the count one - - continental divide and at that point his mission was effectively done to go back home to do mapmaking along the way. but reaching the continental divide turned out to be anti- climatic a little boring

trying to figure out the continental divide and to climb the tallest mountain. and to go of the highest non- that he could see and decided the mules they were taking it was just right there so they left behind with the mules for most of the other supplies and even their coats. it was summer and it didn't take long to understand they had misread the ground ahead of them. and those that they needed to navigate and reaching altitudes and one of the men went off the slope with that precipice to his death only dropping flat on the surface

and exhausted the panting the party stopped and 10000 feet above sea level to hunt a mountain goat for dinner and failed. and tried to sleep without their blankets on a slab of granite lieutenant fremont began to experience severe headaches and vomit. the leadership grew erratic the next day i met his party lose cohesion as they clambered up a broken ground and split into ones and twos to the rocks in the snow that meant they cannot easily help one another. the mapmaker a german immigrant was walking alone at the top of the snowy slope when he lost footing and began sliding. there was no way to stop he continued 200 feet before he crashed into rocks at the bottom and lucky to somersault

over the first rock in a way that broke no bones. after a black man a member of the expedition that he was vomiting again as were others they sent word and the message to try to reach the summit the barometer that they could use to measure the altitude of the mountain. not being an idiot, he refused and he assumed this meant the effort to reach the summit was done. and then manage to bring up a little bit of food for the first meal in two days and had a nice sleep and then woke expecting everyone would to send the mountain but discovered otherwise. john reminded him they brought along a bottle of brandy.

well, after all to empty glass on top of the mountain which was sick and dehydrated to say keep climbing. so fremont took extraordinary risks well beyond what seemed necessary for the mission at hand and then to gain certain rewards by the way they did reach the top of the mountain to the top of the american flag and ended brilliant bit of public relations and to climb the highest peak in all of north america. is not among the top 100 peaks

in the rocky mountains but it took a long time to realize thi this. 1842 from there were still images that were surmounting the highest part of the rocky mountains part of his fame in campaign biography and why he was nominated for president. so jesse was crucial. the first person to hear a story when he came back to take dictation of the stories he had to tell and the letters by various means by out west and take them to newspaper editors and have them published to publicize these achievements seeming to know it would be the case and they read like a press release. her letters read like love

letters his red like of press release. teethree but they took advantage of the fact of the conversation and the phone just rang so don't feel embarrassed. so this is. when weekly newspapers have been around america for a long time become daily newspapers but there are more and more daily newspapers and it was being accelerated more and more because of the invention of the telegraph and in 1844 to succeed in stringing copper wires from washington dc from united states capital all the way to baltimore where the dnc was hold on - - held send word

of each development at the convention back to washington and was deciphering his own code that bears his name and to read aloud to a crowd of hundreds of people at the capital the latest news development. like he was the first news anchor. there are remarkable accounts of people marveling at this idea of instant communication the annihilation of space imagine the possibility any event anywhere instantly. the correspondent for the new york herald said originating in the mind a new species of consciousness nobody was ever certain passing in a distant city. 500 miles off. and in reading that paragraph

we realize that we are witnessing is the dawn of the era we are living in today. that we are swamped by today. that we are struggling with today and to see how people struggle with it at the very beginning. there was a development and to hold out the possibility to bring the world closer together to improve the understanding of each other and there was also many ways to grow the world apart in a campaign that which john charles fremont was nominated by the republicans as the anti- slavery in the first election were there was a major party meaningful opposed always before then it was

necessary for any national party to appeal to have any chance of winning and then to be actively proslavery. this party was different northerners realize there was a demographic change going on the northern population had grown much more rapidly than the south to create an opportunity to elect the president with northern votes alone. that made it a very dangerous time because the south uses that as profoundly threatening the institution to instruct their economy and society and many southerners said that if republicans were ever to win the election they would secede from the union. there was a battle going on whether slavery should be

allowed to spread in the western states. there was violence in kansas that was supposed to be and new territory and disputing over kansas with political violence in washington itself republican senator sumner from massachusetts with a crime of kansas and especially a south carolina senator for his incoherent phrases and the expiration --dash expectoration of speech meant to say no possible deviations from truth can you imagine?

[laughter] senator was not present for this tirade but learned after the speech and consider it an insult to his family and then as a member of the house of representatives to work on - - walk across the senate hall and found him riding at his desk again and again with a cane until somebody was unconscious even until broke into pieces and now that the conflict had wrenched on - - reached the centers and the telegraph and daily newspapers with those vast distances almost simultaneously to read daily updates. nothing like this would be possible a decade earlier. of course filtered through

northern and southern editors that they were reading different versions of the event and to say that sumner was ambushed and then that great effort and to be insensible on the floor the correspondent of north carolina all but rolled his eyes. 1001 stories about this transaction sumner was beaten it was true but is not seriously hurt his whole speech was out of character very irritating to southern men. but to celebrate and for the

congressman but then something else happened in spreading the news of the caning everywhere with that southern reaction to the north readers of the new york herald with extended excerpts the chivalrous congressman brooks to the senator of massachusetts this is a new phenomenon of itself. and not only more rapidly than ever before and to celebrate that horrified them. and a change the political calculus became the way the

americans were driven apart rather than together. for the speed and force of this information. and what they learned about one another. and they struggled with it then and struggle with that phenomenon now it is one of the great challenges of our time the campaign of 1856 is to be profoundly revealing and speaks again and again because of the media environment and the questions americans face in 1856 included who gets to be america american? who gets to be equal that only slavery but a debate over immigration and that had arisen in the country the

people at the heart of this movement refer to themselves as native americans by which they met nativeborn white people and the immigrants could sway elections and they would often organize rallies and provocative rallies knowing this would provoke violence and a reaction of irish immigrants and then i got the reaction that they wanted. and then they were pushing against a dangerous and alien religion, catholicism. the pope was described as a sinister plot or to use immigrants to take control

that is a protestant nation. and then to be born the illegitimate son of an immigrant a french immigrant named fremont falling in love with the virginia aristocrat and they had children even though the divorce was never granted so the son of an immigrant but in the newspapers in 1856 campaign they change from the son of an immigrant to an immigrant born outside of the united states and then to be ineligible for the presidency and then in

1856 and even worse they began producing evidence that john charles fremont was catholic. that he was a foreigner born somewhere else and that incredibly bitter and nasty election with a great deal at stake and to restrict slavery in the united states over who got to be counted as an american a threat to break up the union if they came the long way threat to destroy the system. and no public opinion polls so you look through the documents at the time and historians who see politicians try to calculate different bits of

evidence. who would win or lose and then they start to look desperate for the republican side against james buchanan in late october but on friday night octobe october 31, republicans planned a mass gathering in new york city. renting the performance all the academy of music the new york tribune call that one of the largest and most enthusiastic gatherings the large number of ladies with their presence and women were involved in the presidential campaign because they were involved in the campaign against slavery the new party captured some of their energy and then to hear that symbol jesse benton fremont made her as famous as him and they are

gracing the meeting by their presence and to call themselves the rocky mountain glee club there should still be a rocky mount glee club. and when they looked at one of those private boxes this is a time when they did not campaign by the way and they did not go into public that was not considered undignified if they had to make a speech to say anything meaningful if they did they would ride in a letter to a friend that would be leaked to the newspapers. they stayed out of sight there is no record of a single tweet by either presidential candidate 1856 not a single

record but then they speed of those that attend the event with his wife and john charles fremont inventor of his own name survivors snowstorms and hunger wounded by his experience and then granted one evening to take up the applause in the theater box set jesse benton fremont chose her husband and eloped with him born and his children and then exalted him and wanted nothing more to be her father's assistant even when it was denied and then stood up for what she believed was

right and they would not support the campaign for president. stanton with mutton chop whiskers and the abolitionist married to elizabeth cady stanton a few months earlier attended a convention with women's right to vote mr. stanton offered his vision whether or not western territories would be ruined but by what he calls the curse of human slavery that it was protestant and also said it didn't matter. would rather be ruled over for the next four years by liberty loving catholic and then free

soil. and when election day arrived to say those which will vibrate and sees to reverberate. and then wrote his best he remains so certain those pat postmasters were reading her mail like a hack at the dnc that she facetiously wrote on the inside postmaster please send as soon as red. to the lady she said i don't dare say anything more that we made these successful telegraphs will do the rest. 1845 congress passed a law

sweeping away an old practice were they voted over a series of weeks and then two days later telegraph wires would bring results across the country and to be collected and counted. we know the end of the story because fremont did not become president but to stand the man who was defeated for the worst president according to many historians in the history of the united states james buchanan won the presidency and declare the union had been saved he was a northerner with those southern connections having one even manipulated the court piece of plied the

supreme court known as the dred scott decision that african-american were not citizens the declaration of independence all men are created equal did not actually mean that an effort to codify slavery for all time for something happened i told you about that demographic change in america that they were more populist and to win the presidency with northern votes alone that fell nearly short for four years later they tried it again with a candidate named abraham lincoln who had campaigned for fremont in 1856 they succeeded and then the south followed through on the threat to destroy the system they

seceded from the union and fire the first shot of the civil war. so lincoln in the last phase of his life pushed through a constitutional amendment outlawing slavery. which was a leap in human progress that no one or those that contemplate the story in 1856. and a leap of human progress that builds on the story of the imperfect union of this imperfect couple struggling pursuing their own ambitions often biased and bigoted themselves and harmful to others. helpful to each other but

ultimately thrashing as we all try to do toward the light so thank you for taking a little time to listen the book is called teethree i am happy to take questions. >> are there women here? what a woman like to ask the first question. >> thank you for your talk and i am curious how you think california's history shaped

the union overall sometimes the more progressive stay is diverse. >> it was amazingly diverse state up until the gold rush of the population a few thousand americans and settlers and those that are chinese here although not those that would come later there are a lot of different kinds of people and those that are the reactionary political leadership california became a state in 1851 of the first two elected was john charles fremont and one of the first things he did in the senate term was to regulate the gold

rush. and in silicon valley at the time people making a ridiculous amount of money in transforming the economy and to come back to california in 1849 and two that required land and then to seek their fortune and that prospect made them fantastic on his part so he benefited from the gold rush and benefited from mexicans in the united states center provide one - - provided a gold-mining you must have a permit and they should be limited to the united states. on the us citizen i'm in favor

is the next and then to make that explicit the purpose of this legislation is to do those nationalities that but fremont himself wanting to get reelected with those constituents said the mexicans that are attracted are class of people didn't want any more of that and those that made him ridiculously rich. and then those immigrants that are good the european women's and not purely a matter of racism but practicality that were settled by european

immigrants wisconsin and iowa brand-new states that were residents were allowed to vote in a surprising turn of events the senators who depended on the votes of immigrants became pro- immigrant. and then to decided to amend the bill for us citizens and those of good character while still agreeing that there are a lot of things a limited number two just take over the area from another country. and then when it more than a handful of indians. and california approved the constitution as a free state

and the reason and then with a bunch of african slaves. and then to be so moral and right that come close to banning black people at all and from coming to california it was profoundly racist and yet a profoundly diverse place and time that was a vital thing to understand about our history about who is included in who participates in his story is that we are telling and it's a wonderful moment with the perspective of slaves and from immigrants so what i want to do in a narrative like

this to we've all of that to gather you hear from his wife and african-american that is very influential at the time and encounter the indians of these characters encountered and you have the opportunity to see the different perspective how different kinds of people push and pull between them in the democracy make the nation that we have today. california was hugely significant in that process. >> how do you think things would have developed had fremont defeated buchanan for president? >> one possibility was a civil war would have come then.

the south said that they were not bluffing it could've happened then in fremont could've been the president instead of abraham lincoln and i want to note when the civil war did come fremont was a general on the union side. and then that concluded that favored his election passionately and thank god he had not actually one thinking that the results could be much more terrible in the way they had been president. >> my name is julie while all of these significant things

were going on was jesse working with the groups of women to earn the vote? >> no. and to be picked up as a symbol and i don't know that jesse ever would have embraced the word feminist i think of her in the way like dolly parton. i don't know if you have heard the amazing series of podcast the last few months that there is a lot of discussion which includes and as a hero to feminist and not only saying but to chart her own course as a talented songwriter and businessperson as well as a singer and performer but the feminist is not a label that dolly parton wanted to embrace

but did not want to ideologically be there she grew up with the boys name her grandfather's name and got herself educated like a boy ultimately put back into gender roles and did not reject them as a wife and the mother and with losing children in infancy which was common then and did all those things while her husband was across the world and also wanted to be politically engaged and then to have something to see to the president of the united states and was the manager of the husband's presidential campaign and was a feminist and some years after 1856 and then to say we are very rich would you mind making a

contribution and the initial response is i'm not sure i want to do that i think women in their present condition management better. [laughter] >> she later changed her mind but that's another that is profoundly modern to think about the complicated relationship that the great number of people and you see jesse without that word and wrestling with those very same issues more than a century ago. >> disclosure moment. >> and they all say that i

never figure out why but the intrigue is with the public expressions with the persona to understand them so can you close the gap in your presentation with many political or social interest from feminism to suffrage with that representation to be primarily published in those appreciation for wild animals like my grizzly bear for example with the great outdoors and there does seem to be a space for what remains of her presentation of self

and how could that be narrow just a little bit. >> you have to go through their writings and finding information to understand what she is saying. the epigraph of the book it is a quote from jesse benton fremont that it will hardly do to tell the whole truth about everything. one of the ways she shaped her husband's image was by suppressing an embarrassing information as well as to be positive and she wrote the same way and a year of

american travel and then as this collection that's rapidly growing up the hill and people finally got the ownership through panama and up the other way and then see san francisco but then she writes this book at the beginning of the book and is filled with references to her depression and to her despair into the nightmare she was having it is that provocative material that if you just pick up the book you really wouldn't know what she was saying and that is

just days before the story began her infants had died. and days after the infant son dies her husband left on one of the expeditions. she doesn't mention but once you understand that that what she said with those references and descriptions to understand her frame of maine on - - a frame of mind out of privacy. with that sense of propriety women of lost children and then you had to steal yourself from that. and left out the vital fact that there's enough in those writings to understand what is going on and at the very end of her life she wrote a

fascinating unpublished memoir which is full of anecdotes, strange anecdotes about her life and in some instances definitely untrue but even where she got the wron wrong, the way she got the wrong is revealing. and then lots of people's tweets. >> so you alluded at the beginning of your talk to those conversations with presidents and that famous confrontation at the white house between abraham lincoln. and with lincoln. >> focusing on 18 forties and

fifties. as some of the most fascinating parts of the lives. and then to be appointed a union general and with insufficient military force seen as the extreme measure to free the slaves of those that were disloyal. president lincoln there were those that were part of the union and did not want to directly order fremont to change his policy because that would be embarrassing but he wanted fremont himself to resolve the order and to that persistent guy which is a good thing a southern guy which could be bad with their circumstance. to refuse lincoln's order and

it's been for weeks and weeks and lincoln repeated what he wanted done and finally to send just one - - jesse back to washington to set abraham lincoln straight. she gets on a and checks into a hotel and sends a note to the white house that she would like to see the president at any time is convenient and then a note comes back that has the single word no. so she goes on and starts talking to lincoln was very little to say and explaining why the freedom of slaves is good to help keep control of missouri and will play really well in europe and lincoln finally says you are quite a female politician.

and she felt that lincoln wasn't listening and lincoln felt he understood the strategic situation what was necessary at the time and one of the slave states in the union and does not need to lose those slave states and the way that would cause him to free any slaves with a different point of view and ultimately he fired general fremont he was still very famous so lincoln gave him a second assignment as a general in another part of the country where he quickly lost the battle and not a very good general at all and was sidelined again. in 1864 john charles fremont

against abraham lincoln the more radical version of abraham lincoln and ultimately he backed off but not until september 1864 there was a danger he may have split the republican vote causing him to lose reelection this is why they are not as well known today as they might be. nobody is gone up against lincoln and fared well in history. so lincoln douglas. and the fremont's also by that experience it's a fascinating story and it is really amazing

there is the in account of the speech that lincoln gave and it is a deeply moving speech which includes the line come to the rescue. >> and what i found fascinating about your talk and answering questions is parallel and wondering are there any more you want to share with us? >> those demographic change are a big one. we are at a time of great demographic change when they see a change in power and younger people and people of color and immigrants we could name a bunch of different kinds of people from one party to the other and then to think

confidently they can win elections without compromising so much with conservatives and then to feel that they are unfairly shut out of power. republicans have always spoken explicitly about this for president trump is known about speaking explicitly and in the 2016 campaign he told supporters this is your last chance. to save the country the last chance for your side to win. and was suggesting that as the country continue to change of his side did not do something now they would be out of power forever. and now we have democrats that are concerned about being

forever shut out of power by a president who was appointing conservative judges and is constantly as a way to encourage to limit voting participation has the right to do whatever he wants as president and democrats look at all that and see someone who was poised to wipe out the system. and this is such a tense time people are not nearly fearful to lose an election that we will need as citizens to keep our heads and perspective during the election year are there women who have questions? >> thank you for the presentation the story of both

of these people can you give a quick timeline to the time in california with this controversial during the mexican-american war so at one point i believe he was court-martialed for his role in his activities to help navigate that and how he will ultimately be viewed by californians. >> first arrived in 1844 arrived by mistake they needed supplies so they went over the sierra nevada is in the snow.