>> my job is to model risk for a living and we keep coming back to the same eight or nine companies that control the lion share patents with extraordinary amount of money because they have the best

food and that have the relationships of universities and it doesn't mean there aren't other companies like salesforce or huber that are doing amazing things for through these nine companies the entire ecosystem touches them in addition to all the things i just mentioned they are building the framework and the silicone chips. all roads lead to these nine companies on the challenge that i have is the case the artificial intelligence is not just bill to create better microwave although that school to optimize our lives using data as current see what does it mean when we relegate that to a handful of companies and those working at these companies? that don't look like us and

don't have the same worldviews as us what are the longer-term downstream implications? >> three of those companies are in china. they are publicly traded companies but have lived in china and anybody who watches china knows that publicly traded companies are still under the thumb of beijing so there is no escape if you are an incredibly successful ceo so to be in lockstep with the chinese government and that matters because china currently has a brilliant person at the helm. president xi is very smart. a very effective leader and a very good long-term plan are. china has a culture of long-term planning. if you go through history looking at their initiatives

and five year plans to see how it never amounted to anything but these are different this time because we ever person power and that really understand technology so you probably heard of the belgian road initiative. this seems like the infrastructure initiative to build bridges and roads in exchange for that diplomacy all around the world the silk road route deep into latin america and africa. but what most people don't realize, this isn't just building physical bridges or roads so 58 countries are part of the digital side they get chinese 5g. also with the social credit court one - - score system.

if you are at an intersection and you jaywalk which is illegal smart camera on - - cameras will recognize who you are. you could have your face covered or be obscured but the system is very smart they can recognize you by gait, posture , how you are walking. if you cause the infraction your face is thrown up on the digital billboard at the intersection along with your name and where you work that is transmitted to your employer's, your family members come if you have done it more than once maybe you are told to report to a local report precinct to the local police precinct. you can be knocked down a couple of notches as a citizen you can do good things and get good work maybe get a few points up.

a program intended to be national that has not yet rolled out nationally maybe you say that's china. i live there so that's very interesting but who cares. let me tell you why this matters to you. first of all this system already has seven.5 million people from buying airplane tickets more than 17 million last year could not fly. five.5million couldn't buy a train ticket and really great jobs and their scores were too low and as a result were disqualified from ascending to management positions these are just ethnic minorities to be discriminated against this is huge social control that may be say to yourself may be a

talking microwave i don't know why this matters to me so if that is the case it is aligning itself with these countries around the world, many are economically vulnerable for any number of reasons because of climate change with authoritarian leaders the social credit score system is a good option to keep the populace and control in china is already exporting this to various different places. this matters because while we are facts on --dash fixated on future wars and missiles in the sky will we have forgotten to look at is what happens if china wages and economic war that blocks us out or forces us on terms we don't like or

understand? and we have reshaped the world in a new world order the militaristic threat to become a formidable global threat to all of us. that is china. with the antagonistic relationship a transactional relationship on good days but that antagonistic between the valley and dc so it winds up happening the valley does what it once until somebody gets upset and then they apologize over and over again. until one day you have somebody like elizabeth warren starts demanding they are broken up. you cannot break them up. and then to do that strategy

but this is when remember it was broken up into baby bell? these companies have multiple divisions and are intertwined and complicated and then to define science and with that education system and technology then who will build out the future of ai so you can't just break these apart it doesn't work that way in the process of arguing back and forth in the process they are competing against each other rather than collaborating so it that sets up one - - sets us up inch by inch, little by little the permissions are taken away. i longer have the ability with

the radio on full volume somebody in a small group and a small tribe decided they would optimize my best and healthiest life i was probably unsafe like you are even though we've never been in a car accident i no longer have control over the volume in my car. that seems insignificant but it is a compounding effect over time. we are all part of the process that is unfolding in slow motion you heard the analogy of the frog in the pot with overtime boiling i don't want to be the dead frog in the pot i know that sounds like hyperbole but there are so many things that are happening we have turned a blind eye to that at some point and there is no switch in a single person in charge.

and with that leadership of the issue president trump signed the executive order on artificial intelligence is not self-executing. we do not have a singular department in charge or institutional knowledge throughout the federal government but they are not in the right places we have incredibly smart people that want to do good by and for society and with market demands so let me be clear i think those big nine companies or the edgy mafia i don't think they are evil little think they intend to harm but they got themselves into a situation where the system is broken.

>> when i joined the company i was 25. and the commentator it's incredibly hard thing to do to run a company many have independence i do not envy anyone and then to self select in that position if you are lucky. and really at the same time they are learning how to be a ceo. and the reason i don't name executives because i feel that behavior institutionally is individually was more of a result of a structural

position rather than individual failure and that call but tory narrative and framework. >>. >> and not to be coy or to offer a puzzle. >> but what i think is a common leadership style than with the business model and then to illustrate this add another reading i feel like i

go to these with my own book like i'm the american girl doll. here i am with my book. [laughter] >> so someone came up to me that had read my book how early members of my team and the manager asked for the five smartest people that you know? write their names down. so why don't they work here? >> one of them was abraham lincoln? >> and there are so many other things to do. and then graduate school. of they are smart and talented

i don't know my purpose in life. and then with that idea and with that economic value. >>. >> yes. i totally get that. and that i should have one line answer. and then she said the same thing happened to my company but another who works in texted me to say this was déjà vu for me.

because i was also to write down the names of the people that i know a totally different company. there is something that happens that of the intellectual culture of which i call anti- intellectuals. and with those business advice that you have a ten of money and accountability and a ton of responsibility to the employees so they read the blog post. and then get to set the tone for the rest of the company and who the smart people they are and then to say we'll pay you five or $8000 per recruit. i tried so hard to recruit

those that were the smartest people that i know. [laughter] >> you can speak to this as well maybe have seen this in that investigation of hoover - - huber. it is available at this bookstore and i think that company culture is shaped by the business model and of that venture capital with that prior to relations bead and scale with that libertarian spirit that has been incubating for 25 years.

>> and you get this weird cultural product and that has that reiterated of complex. >> and were on c-span? [laughter] >> so i am wondering and what you take with you? generally to think about reading from a lot of tech folks. and then to question that.

but i guess we are wondering. and then to appreciate that you take that away from you. >>. >> and then to be ambivalence there is a lot that know if you're my thirties if i would go back and appreciate i happen to be the right age and right yearnings to be the ideal and yes in my twenties and when that mattered. and not knowing anyone.

so what i admired and appreciated is the camaraderie and commitment to a common project or collective project if you will. i like that people have for a little while but that's also part of the problem that don't have that authority. and should be necessary in like that gross autonomy to replicate of that structure that exist externally. and i think that and i really did enjoy it and that culture. some of that is detached

mockery i don't know if you can relate. they might be wrong but then to see if they are doing good for the world and to trust them so what is missing for that individual i don't know if you can legally answer this question but do you feel like someone?

that it went not exist if we didn't have this crazy culture but should uber exist? that shouldn't exist and if you don't. >>. >> are you trying to extrapolate? [laughter] >> and with those incentives. and that to be forgiving with someone like that? >>. >> and then to boil down how this works. and with that revenue. and for most companies and now

it's just baked into how this works but i also think the people who are already on the face like the incumbents are protected and i'm not saying this is wrong there's reasons for doing this stuff. >> not to go back on my own argument that people are in the same structural position and not ass holes. >> do you have to be a jerk?

so that will be called online and off-line platform services. and with that same mechanism and the api interface to put out a request for somebody to pick up the food and deliver it to this address participating in that exchange what is picked up and delivered executing a payment and scheduling so that portion of the work is automated but that delivery to deliver the food as part of the equation we are considering but are they aware to see those folks if we said content moderation i think anybody would have known what i was talking about.

>> so we all know content moderation is providing another service but importantly the people and that are performing very important service. so to focus on the business startups and the services anybody that would see. and with that might be familiar many of these have artificial intelligence innovation with that data set. but increasingly to see the number of jobs is actually

quite hard to nail that we would just keep a person with those service requests so any time you go on to a website it is a mixture of script and a person assisting you. >> and the person who was doing something on the spot. and with those points of reference that come to mind this is not new there is continuity here so it'll just be moment and that might look like piecework or manufacturing a knockout a shirt but for quite some time it is a matter of decades and that's important thing to take

away and that makes it possible for textiles in some cases but also the reality and then to be too sophisticated for a textile missionary to consume through automation and then a person was kept around. and so those that are the most you could at the time to serve as computers it's the people not the machines then the need for them and dazzles confrontational experts and then to be let go and then to have unemployment to see these

women as viable simply because with that idea of what it was to value work and also particular bodies embodied in the profession when white men of privilege had very specific roles to play so they seemed expendable of not playing by the rules. so by the 19 sixties and pointing to the beautiful book to the economy quite literally brokered on the id valuing as a resource because they are college-educated and a gray office girl. and also expendable. keeping that moving by the

time we get to the 1980s through two thousands with the our sharing of knowledge, it becomes much harder to make the case people are doing something precisely it's also by workers in the united states. it becomes much more obvious it is arbitrage, find cheap labor that's just as educated as anyone. and i also with my colleagues the settlement of the case against microsoft or that involved microsoft so what do you do in the case of employmen employment? that is necessary for a period of time that is project drive driven, somebody with that specific expertise coding expertise and you will not need them for more than 12 months or 12 weeks or 12 days.

and what you have to value that worker. so post 2000 silicon valley and 2001 and then to be settled without case law. and not necessary and then we come up with and the settlement to treat contract labor and beyond that 12 month contract to say unemployed and the benefits come with unemployment and it is an argument and a historical

trajectory that it is setting in place of laws around labor protection with that valuable work that it can't be automated without much projection that would one day become a target of automation. and beyond the touch of automation and that is with the growth of the service industry that serves people's request for need than the need to build something. . . . .

mary: that is completely done with software printed at the time we paid quite a bit of money and you will pay a bit of money to build this website. there was my first work is a 1099 pretty so keep that in mind as you thinking about can be automated and what is in the work of an remaining the creative or complex communication that goes beyond automation. that is really in question. what is it that will be constantly on the horizon. and requires human touch. elise for some amount of time and we can see going into a career predict and how we need and distributed the work is not the most obviously from an

anthropologist. we often had to figure out where to begin pretty and we have more businesses this case studies where we identify groups of workers with these companies to show us the inside of their blackbox printed how how did they organize this work printed what does the workflow look like. and the companies that really stand in this world of the mechanisms they can both build out like artificial intelligence but also keep in the loop loop. it. >> deputy chief technology officer for new york city, she spoke kramer books, in washington dc. about the power dynamic between big tech companies and governments around the world. >> i think the best way to describe is to talk about how i came upon the idea to write this book in first place. so the look in 2015, there were a number of terrorist attacks across france. and in november of 2015, large terrorist attacks which over

hundred 30 people and it was found out after the fact that a lot of these attacks were carried on to organize on the social media. so social media companies really got involved in working with these agencies to try to figure out how to stop the corporation of terrorism on platforms and how we keep them from organizing them and attacks like these on these platforms. it was kind of a rough start in the beginning. one of the people who was responsible for the attacks was captured about six months later. despite the fact that human actively on facebook for the entire time. so there wasn't a lot of cooperation between governments and tech companies at the time. a few days later, facebook, google, youtube, amazon and a few others, came together for a global forum to talk about how to fight terrorism.

this is something that was really organized by the ticking industry and for the tech industry. so again, a lot of cooperation with the government pretty cisco forward a few months. we saw a series of hurricanes in the u.s. her can maria it american and wiped out cell phone coverage printed and they really did not show up. initiative, tesla. they came forward to rebuild their electric grid. will showed up with project which provided internet and telecommunication coverage. at this time, i thought okay, what is going on with the tech industry. they're not just making spreadsheets and calendars and apps but they're getting involved in areas that are outside of the core mission. and used to be the sole responsibility of the government. with diplomacy, counterterrorism, infrastructure building, and i thought there has to be some better way to

talk about them. they seem to have a role to play in geopolitics. so the problem was the nonstate actor term which kind of had already involved to beat the bad guy. soy study where the stern happened. [inaudible]. and are simply some people think of tech companies is a bad guy. so it looked into this research and is recently in 2010, the dictionary defines actors as for examples like the un and nato. so even than they were not considered terrorists predict and it was sometime around 2012 or 2013, he started seeing the stern are term used as qaeda. and eventually, the names printed so the nonstate actor was taken with bad guys. and clearly these tech companies were not nationstate either. so i thought that maybe there needs to be in of the way to them. so introduce this concept of net space. so the internet companies, who

are working outside of their core technology missions in areas that used to be the domain of nationstates. like the fence and infrastructure. i wrote the article in 2015. people who run it said, i think this is a little bit of a stretch. and put on a show for two years. and after hurricane maria, thought actually, i really feel like there is something to this nest when i put the article out there. wired published it and then it turned into this book. >> what is the difference between net space of the big tech companies might have philosophic concerns like donating tensor money are voluntary or whatever pretty cisco are over or any of those, that also major. >> it's a really good question. and i actually put them in that category. i do put tesla in this category.

might seem surprising in some ways. the reason is the number of really looking at how tech companies are standing outside of the digital services and into these domains used to be the territory of government. you know see over really getting involved in counterterrorism yet. or at the moment. microsoft is very deeply involved in diplomacy. we don't see cisco having a really good steak and national treaties. between these two and all the people me what about international companies. coca-cola that operates globally and mcdonald's. another one of those are opening a counterterrorism department pretty facebook has larger counterterrorism department then the government. so this is one of the reasons other thought that we should pay attention to it. >> so they qualify, is google and amazon and facebook and

apple, and microsoft and you anticipated my question tesla. maybe why tesla printed. >> so one of the things that i looked in the book is not just how tech companies expanding into governmental domain, the other expanding into what i call just in real life, and physical infrastructure and services. this is something that tesla anyone musk has many sister companies tesla, is really doing in some ways more than anyone else pretty. alexis: this operations, their pursuing partnerships with governments through electricity. he's now moving into space. there's a lot of endeavors where that no longer looking at just products and services like ours. there really changing the way that we about public infrastructure. what about the morning company, high-speed rail in chicago.

>> inland objects to that. alexis: one of the question since we can now have private sector companies who are in charge of public infrastructure what happens when they decide they don't necessarily want to make it available for all. this is one of the reasons that attacked a lot about in the book about their work in puerto rico. they stepped in at a time when puerto rico needed somebody to step in. tesla printed the federal government did not predict but they're not under any obligation to stay. they don't have the responsibilities the government has to a for instance providing fully and fairly access to services. >> you right in the but the net states do have the least, what do you mean by that. alexis: one of the things that often distinguishes these companies is that i'm number of people that work there, a large enough contingent to make a difference with say. they are driven in some ways by

the technology that it should be used for good printed we see this with google, they worked with the department of defense on a very small project called project ramen looking at how to apply ai to their technologies. this is a very small contract. but a handful of people googled the empire are working on the sprint when people found out inside of google that this was happening, there were people, resigned in protest printed there was a companywide letter circulated saying we did not believe that google should be in the defense system and google backed out. and let go of the con part contract, they let it expire. it's the drive and people who work in the organization. they want to be testing to do good. it. >> so sought totally unlike a government is a constituted on the constituent parts. alexis: this is something that i think one of the interesting features

of these particular companies. they are interested in the bottom line of course and interested in maybe that they can be successful businesses but you do here about internal employee protest when the company does things that do not align with their core beliefs printed they should be used for good. it's one of the challenges in the dynamic is we may cheer from the sidelines and say yay google. go ahead and protest printed you don't think it's right that we don't actually have any role and to directly influence that process which i think is another thing that makes this a unique phenomenon. it. >> we will come back to that in a minute. based on your experience, want to ask you a little bit about the government's relationship to netscape. let me ask you and if you can start by the this episode you have in the book where i had not read about before.

much of the social media companies and tech companies, and the justice department and the fcc and interference before the 2018 election and how that went. alexis: so there has been attend by the tech industry up to about 2018 referencing in the book, to reach out to law enforcement and to reach out to big federal agencies and try to partner with them. and try to figure out how to be meet the challenges that we all face together. it we need government entities they have been a little slow to respond. there is a meeting that was held in which the key players, google facebook and others invited homeland security and offered a lot of information about their own strategy to deal with terrorism on their platform. the emerging disinformation campaign. in response they were sort of met with silence. so the next time the convene, they didn't invite government

people. i think in 2020, it's going to shift a little bit especially from the defense sector, starting to reach out to tech companies very aggressively to get them to work with them. i think the chief security officer at facebook is not stanford. but he put it really well, uncle police department may be really hard-working and strong but we would not ask the local police department to defend against invading army. but that is sort of what is happening in the tech sector. were looking at these tech companies to stand up their own counterterrorism units known defense mechanisms not really giving them the support they need. >> before the cycle, and after that episode is really an interesting parable about the risks of governments standoffish in us. if dc in the federal government if they can't get its act together to participate in the

tech companies are just boy to do whatever they want to do. which i thought was a valid point. at the same time, there's a problem because we know that dc and especially congress, even more than the executive branch does not and cannot keep up with that and we have all of these lawmakers who made their careers and insurance ourselves or even medicine and law. but they showed zero grasp of technology. i remember during the zuckerberg hearing, when he was asked if facebook was the same thing is twitter. and how facebook made money. and clearly not been on the platform at all. these people could be better staffers or whatever but fundamentally i'm wondering if you have something about how the government can be smarter about the relationships with people overseeing agencies have no idea what to ask for. it. alexis: that's a very good question i think there's a couple of different ways to think about it. we can make sure to put people

in congress and do understand the importance of technology. not just as but it is a power player. geopolitically and domestically. and i think we are starting to see an influx of younger, more diverse people running for elected office. so i have to hope that within two years we will see kind of the nature people who are representing us, start to reflect these interest more globally. but i also think though that the people are currently in office, it's not a surprise that technology companies are impacting our daily lives. this is not new in 2020. the 2014 election and disinformation campaign, from foreign actors. that was a few years years ago. i think there is no real excuse for it other than a lack of appetite. lack of understanding and i think that even if the congress people themselves, do not grasp

all of the details of technology, they certainly have access to resources that they can learn our help inform themselves better about what to do. >> it's hard to be passionate about if you cannot grasp it. [inaudible]. >> talk about the work of these netscape to an encounter to chisholm and prejudiced groups. i am wondering, what you think about an imbalance that exists between the work with tech companies and that netscape how they can work with them and what you think about the balance in the playing field is first amendment to them. we can or can we how we can oppose regulations. can you talk about that. alexis:

it's like talking about the fact that they have really robust laws and they're saying that what we have anything like the first amendment. and sort of built this way this was the way would it be great if we were somehow able to find a middle ground and i think that there needs to be some sort of movement from people who are into these things printed there's no mistaking other than what it is for the free-speech credit sort of a crowded theater type of thing. so i think that it's extremely examples of hateful content. if we can't regulate them in some way, we need to put pressure on our tech companies to be more aggressive about the labeling them if not taking them down pretty this is something we see a little bit with cuban and google and labeling the content

that it is problematic. basically they been doing this with information about the coronavirus. and were labeling it as it being potentially and this is one way to get out making sure consumers are more informed. without just ripping it away completely. >> md feel like you have any thoughts about whether that is working or can work. alexis: i think that it is still early days. we need to study its impact. it's a start. it is better than nothing. i remember a few years ago asking the ceo of google at the time, but their thought was at google about church. whether or not it should be something that you have your hand in identifying people with problematic content. and he said we don't censor anything. but we can do you rank that kind of content printed so there sort

of tipping the scale a little bit behind the scenes. and again this comes up to this question of the fact that we don't necessarily have visibility into these actions. so i think one of the things that makes these companies interesting from our citizens perspective is then the active transparency, were not really in the position to say the algorithms show who your d ranking or flagging or not. we just see the results. the doing a good job. it. >> and reminder all of the programs you are saying now are available to watch in their entirety a booktv.org. just like the author's, for the book title in the search box at the top of the page. next enter author programs on technology, joanne mcneil speaking at harvard book store in cambridge, massachusetts she argued that internet use shifted from being individualistic to spontaneous and voluntary to being data and advertising

driven. >> standing in the corner is like a wallflower. but people can't necessarily see and i think it's one of those things that has to do with the elements that make interaction online somewhat usual from the physical world interactions. and sometimes because we take for granted how much our communications is woven into our daily lives, that core difference is difficult and world interactions that i want to make clear in the title. >> so you say you're working with the preferred way of interacting with the internet. other specific place online that you choose like you sort of consider yourself primarily like where are you these days.

joanne: i would say, probably i have never had a profile but ice but a lot of time about it and especially like in the corners are better. the very sweet and unexpected. some are very toxic and have many problems but there also this other place where of printed where people, like homelessness and about extends resources with somewhat of a layer of in the need to be deep. it is a lot about screenings as opposed to being on an internet. i have worked on a lot of communities that i just find useful information wise. in the book go through place the night was very present in how

like on these message boards. before i would leave the post, i would definitely spend possibly months making sure that everything is there. >> i am noting that the title is working at the edge of the room. so you are welcome to sit and if you want to print just like the internet, we won't make you participate in a particular way. i think that point but rather it is so interesting. one of the weird things about it, i'm also admitted that i am a reddit worker. and i do a fair amount of legal advice as a lawyer which like is probably a form of sort of like causing myself pain. an arena fair amount of apple which is i think is funny

because it actually has sort of gotten a lot of people way of interacting with this particular form of the internet is through interpretive like the fact of reddit or someone will post something like very ridiculous like in my gavel post and the somebody will respond. totally departed from the actual content in which the initial post was made. it. joanne: this the classic example of how it can be quite bizarre and he did in some ways but if you take it to another platform like twitter, winners already this and of underlining irony attached to it. you just have to be above the content. i think that's what makes twitter distinctive is that you cannot really be afraid about things. and what i think it's incredible flip funny about that on twitter is that in the book and talk about when i first went on to

twitter, i was told that i was too much of a jerk to be on the social network. and i was looking at all of these nice people sharing and why am i not a nice person. they share these really peaceful moments in my life, why do i have to make my weird jokes. nowadays, i feel like i am overwhelmed with that edge. the content and that everything has to be, almost a given of distancing yourself from the platform that if you can laugh at everything, you are not so inclined newsom layer of personal distance from what you are doing there. >> i think it like in some ways, working can be a way of distancing yourself. the sonatas invested as the others. i will say someone who is also much of a worker online, it is not a lack of like, it's not a

lack of investment. i'm not actually less invested in people posted. in fact some cases i am more invested probably. blessed to be that person distance. so you sort of frame in the book, both in terms of this idea of becoming a user. it's hard to find nothing to, the fairmont in the book is kind of i thought was particularly interesting because of teachers like the off-line profiles. were basically for those who are unfamiliar with facebook, off-line profiles are sort of like renaming because what an off-line profile is if they decide they didn't want a facebook profile and then facebook constructed a profile for them from all of the things to do even though none facebook. so generally, how do you think about what you think about tracking on the web. they lurking horses is

specifically. joanne: the internet is designed to track activity and analytics and those elements that are just part of the function of these social networks, especially something like facebook where his profit is attached to having data on its users. so that's another element where the physical has an advantage because you can leave without a trace. you can walk away. perhaps maybe there will be surveillance cameras in the future like. on facebook. >> sort of lease without a trace. so i'm going to switch topics a little bit. one part of the book i read,

with a lot of interest. a broader chapter entitled crash. so someone at times identify with that label, activism, many of the participants you described my sort of is really appreciating the humility in which you approached it specifically you say, that you're going to resist the urge to have a theory about why women in the tech community are likely than a feminist in new york when address your concerns. i'm not going to ask you to read your narrative but just know that this seems like maybe a little bit horny kind to me. i'll get the period of organizing that you highlighted and actually real activists. it ended up bleeding over into what i would call the white

women focus of diversity box checking. the way in which is a particular, a very different version of white supremacist impaire.the same time, it's a vf white feminism. they were bright spots that you point out, i think there's a lot to be said positive about that. i think and i would be curious about your process about that chapter. the real moment when you are reflecting on how not to just come off as nostalgic. in a way that is historical about the sort of positive parts of the internet. more generally your views on the text feminist. in your reflection on that. joanne: that was an intense moment.

and an eye-opening one. i was based in new york at the time and i remember as elements that came unavoidable on platforms like twitter and facebook, found the professional community at the time is not necessarily addressing some of the intersexual into elements that went into these harassments. and some of the resources that i found that work permanent or deep feminism like wiki, resources that just so much beyond the media presentation of gender equality.

that time, coincided with an activism to write certainly black lives matter. i do remember especially at the women's martin 2016, having feeling like we've really come so far. a lot of basic understandings of inclusion, that would've three years prior are accepted must much more broadly. i am always hesitant to name certain factors more than others. what i do think as problematic as twitter is.

the nature of having something like twitter, we have trending topics someone can create a # and use that to discuss personal appearances of oppression. and having that community element the platform is designed for communities. push forward some of the progressive ideas predestined that with a lot of hesitation because for the most part, i feel that these platforms that are designed for everyone, could also be very dangerous. it's trade off. the because it would twitter account near many types of people, who probably see a few people from backgrounds very different from yours. so saying their experiences a ad

their arguments as part of the conversation and the part of twitter is always having a #. in the white women would be the key turning points for the activism. it is something i don't want to discount but i don't want accredited too much. i don't want to discount twitter's role but i don't want to, they certainly did nothing for that to happen. twitter the company did nothing for that user activism pretty. >> you're watching tv on "c-span2". i want to kill look at some recent other programs about technology. next from april 2019, sociologist julie examines the

divide between digital natives and the generations that succeeded them printed. >> now we have kids growing up or their always this mobility difficult mobile devices pretty are smart phones and internet enabled our ipads laptops and all that stuff. kids are now been given these devices in infancy. in 1979, i don't know if you know these guys a band called the tube. the kind of funky out of san francisco. they had an album cover is called the remote control. album cover was kind of a nod and a wink to think about the evil impacts of help the people thought the television was going to work kids grades and things like that. and tv rights kids face in little grip. i'm going to be a little picture now. now in 2018, and actually zero product that's on amazon when the kid has an ipad right in the

face from day one. there's others like this pretty funny tears who have an ipad right there right at the crib. so we are actually feeding digital technology to children before they acquire language skills. so neuropsychologist no there's something called brain plasticity that children's brains are malleable like plastic. what you put into them, we concluded and the things they are exposed to, should those neural pathways. the shape the reins of children. what is the outcome. what will happen when we have babies like you saw, infants there acquiring digital skills before acquiring language. what will be the outcome of that. we don't know yet. but that stimulation of videos that you see on youtube, all of this input of stimulation happening, most parents also say

that they have the tv on at the same time and must report that they have other things going at the same time. so there's always stimulation. always noise or sound. what is that due to the attention and thinking and those neural pathways that are taking shape by all of that input. we don't know yet. that will be determined on the horizon. that is where we are out now. and really steady diet of that being fed to children. so we can say that this is rewiring the brain's. these children are going to think differently and you do. if that's will rats. i told you that people are coming untethered. one of the reasons is that nationally choices. and you heard christopher say that i had worked as a researcher at army and i help with their products and help

them match people better when it first card started coming onto my dissertation. what is happening now is eharmony sort of a web based matching service. ilia phone snaps, all these things were people are describing. it becomes again. what is happened is, is presented to young people, this idea that you have limited cf choices in front of you in terms of romantic love relationships. so put into think that with this limited cf choices, billing find just the right choice for you. what happens is and we see this in consumer psychology that there's a paradox of choice. the idea is that kind of funny but the more choices to that you have, and makes it more difficult to choose. they did a study of the jam

study. have you been in the store or so market for the giving up samples of food or cheese or something. they set that up to give you samples of jim in the first year they had 24 varieties of jam. here's all of these towns, training when you want printed and they give a coupon to buy of jam after that. the second day they only gave six varieties the same coupon to buy a jar of jam. commonsensical you would think that the more choices you find that jam you would like. you will find it. it turns out that something case. people were only a tenth as likely to buy any juvenile when they have more choices as opposed to when they have less.

so when a situation now there's a paradox of choices. choice overload. the mueller choices that we have, it makes it harder for us to choose anything and also people now are swiping and typing and typing to beat maybe another what someone a little hotter and richer and more interesting. maybe somebody had no fights with. so i keep swiping but they don't end up choosing anyone at all. and he study just came out last week, half of americans are not in a romantic relationship. 65 percent of household kids have never had a romantic relationship now. and if you go back to world war ii, a lot of people married her high school sweetheart. what high school sweetheart now. they don't have that produce really changing the dynamics of everything. one of the reasons are that up, another thing that they do by the way is kind of easy come

easy go. you can get a deep date so easily that people just disappear. i called dusting. they don't ever contact the person, somebody who, but that's what they are doing. and guess what, the same idea of the swiping and the choice overload the gusting, is now happening in the workplace. there's this idea, there's this endless plethora jobs available some people know, our ghosting their employers. aching that they can just get another one and another one. so this idea of this endless sea of choices is changing people's willingness to commit to something because maybe there is something better out there. a job or be at a romantic relationship. it is changing the dynamics of commitment because of this endless sea of choices available.

what is happening to is the qualities of adulthood bringing it changes what adulthood means. sociologists study the markets of adulthood. the markers and this is they are. completing school, leaving home, becoming financially independent with all-time job. bearing and having a child. now if we go back to 1960, by age 30, 77 percent of women as 65 percent of men, had achieved all five of those markers by early 30s. but if you fast-forward to know, less than half of 30 old women and third one third of men. in a sense we are living in a period of extended adolescence. that is part of the qualities of tethering from all of these traditional markers of adulthood. now some people say, maybe we

should just unhook from these devices and things like that but it's becoming harder and harder because in one sense their addictive which i didn't you select that word but we are now, once we have mobile phones available to us, they are making in qualities that are similar to our one arm bandit slot machine and we talk about gambling. we talk about gambling as an addiction. you pull the arm and maybe win, maybe not. i will try to get it i will try again. soon you hear all this ding ding ding in the lights are going in the sirens because you have one. well that's exactly how instagram works. facebook works, your scrolling just like those things are scrolling in front of you. sometimes the content is interesting and sometimes it is kind of boring. and nevertheless, he keeps

drawing you back in for more. the same behavioral drivers are the most predicted people coming back for more, are baked into our social media now. it becomes harder to put those things down. even a message, have you ever seen ding often for people check their phones around you. sometimes people are even feeling the vibration when it's not even vibrating. maybe there was message. they just want to keep checking in checking in checking. people are checking their phones thousands of times a day. so the problem becomes this. i'm not trying to be amish. going back to the horse and buggy days what i am saying is that the combination of our devices, and a conductivity to that in hooking from these social structures, have left particularly younger people on

board. were seeing the risk like anxiety, depression, we have seen in 30 years. i work at the university so i'm right at the front lines of this. i seen up close. i don't know if you realize this, but colleges now, but one quarter of students are on some kind of medication now for some kind of mental disorder. the key here is coming untethered. it means coming on board in some ways. we don't have the stabilizing social structures there stabilizing people's mental and physical health. so many to sort of reinvent that. now can we do that. and as we pull away from these social structures like churches for example, how can we create instructors to provide stability for young people. obviously we have a little bit of a problem on her hands. >> technology books with maureen pratt two in january of this year discuss the next level of

artificial intelligence that involves decision-making. >> i was lucky that i went to the computer revolution spread nobody can use them in my mom had know the difference between software and hardware. i had to expand that to her. the going through a massive democritus cetacean of commuter technology. we are in the same place today with ai and data in that new technology stuff. ai is brought to us but we do not have control over it. it's overwhelming, and abets we get a data vision. but had the honor of interviewing hundreds of people at the technology analyst for a few years asking them, but you're frustrated about previous technology can solve one problem, what would it be. over and over and over again, heard similar answer. it looks sort of like this.

this is why, i am pretty sure i know what i'm doing. i have been building machine learning systems a really long time. over 30 years. so i'm responding and i went to graduate school, hundred million dollar budget for the government. i have built thousands of machine models. who would have known that i would've done that. it was many years later. now might machine learning friends know what i'm talking about. so i believe that this background has giving and insight. there is something that is been missing all these years. and that something that is missing as we been coming up from a technology and instead of putting humans at the center of the equation. i am honored to sit in this and they were closely with them.

i like that she called it intelligence augmentation because like ai, go down to ia. is putting you at the center of the equation again. when i interviewed all of these people, i found what i thought for a while the decision of this political decision. it is an action is arson thought process. in that action, let's do some stuff. and i don't know what buying that scarf or card will do in the world. it is going to have some impact pretty loosely, i don't know because i can't see that impact pretty is not so impressive for me. it doesn't grab my primate brain that makes me think that gosh, i really need to buy the hybrid cup. i can't see it. in the data stack today, ai stack today is not giving that to me. this is my dog, i am treating

him to be a service dog. i have had him much his whole, is about 11 months old. and i have this awesome thing happened to me. i had a trainer who teach me how to train the dog. and had my head exploded. i have been interviewing humans that have been always talking about this which is the context, the behavior in my dog since when is a set printed the consequence, he gets a key. so this is a universal archetype. it's not just one way to take about how we might view ai and data. and it was a you a little bit about that in a moment. what i think, i am pretty certain this is a new way to think about it. it has the lowest friction to how humans speak. lorien: the lowest friction to how humans naturally think. people live in complex

environments. they don't have much brainpower for optimization or methodology or any of those fancy things. the fact that we are not, has created a giant cultural barrier. between people at the head of governments, at the head of businesses, even me. as they try to make decisions and try to make data and ai to help make sure that those decisions have a digital effect that is good. so farmers i am working with, on a proposal they have to decide what consequence down the road, they don't know if that will make it productive. what happens if they have fewer migrant workers. the situation has changed. businesses might decide to acquire a company a price to change, and as they took the throne, you hear much but when my dog hears. as a situation, there's a behavior, who can get this

product at this price. in general, my dog gets and he's a dog. but for us, we can think through long chains of consequences. but it is limited. we need computer help. so again, a decision is an imaginative process in our heads, as we think through the actions in some context that will lead to some result. if you remember nothing else, remember this template. and what's cool about decision intelligence which is what the book is about, is because we start with humans, i can teach her some information dated today that you can take on the news immediately. if that is promise if you stick with the top. how to make decisions today. i am sorry to say, in a complex world, going back to human evolution, we don't really think through the consequences of our

decisions very deeply. we are much more likely, not to think through rationally and instead to look for someone who looks successful in our society. it was dominant or prestigious legal physical link copied them. it turns out effective. it has been hugely successful. it separates us from any other species. the cultural theory says that we develop behaviors and patterns. genetic evolution, we need cultural evolution to come up with these behaviors. the program to work to look at some prestigious dominant person and with the do. and they can teach you the consequences. that was great for a few millennia. the situation is changed. personal, is a bad actor here,

and here, and they tell us what to do based on our stars, they can divert behavior. it influences to make decisions that benefit them without us. if they are smart about the situation. the hunt kept just multiply changing. we need to be developing new ways of coping with his big ocean that is fundamentally different. because he keeps changing. we always are thinking through problems that are societal and they are most of the pain. we have complex systems. we see winner take all. winners take all where large companies or large artists of 9s inequality. anybody who has data, we tend to focus on something we can measure easily pretty funny.

size and price. we come to our we tend to overlook happiness. and yet i've never built the decision model didn't at least have one feedback loop that involved something intelligible. a soft factor. the cultural revolution us that all of those other disciplines that we talk about the soft actors pretty they create a roadmap for how to do that. anything i didn't say is the future is unlike the past. and so you know the work, we solve the problem. if we assume that the past and the future the same and based on the past, the situations change printed what do i do. i believe, that ai, which i'm going to tell you about can solve this problem. i grew up with technology

optimism printed we were all sharing and internet was going to democratize reality. it we had a dream. i don't think we realize the dream. i think decision intelligence will help us go there. i think we have created a number of change, collaboration, internet, social media and one more recent move. start to make a big difference, to have a long impact pretty sdi which we will start to talk a little bit practically right now. we start with people rated it is and where is the data. we don't say we cannot do this thing that data. there's a huge amount of human knowledge that is in no data set whatsoever. we are good and knowing how actions lead to outcomes.

we go home, ask a friend who did not come to the talk about what he think about a complex decision. i promise you will talk about actions and that ultimately only to outcome in the top of the context print is what i do, as i sit down with a group of exper experts. i old and young and gender and race and i say, or the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. they come to me with these massively big upon project but never sat down and brainstorm through the outcomes. i consult a 17 -year-old essay, what are you trying to achieve. in the outcomes, is different for each person. you don't need technology to get better. you just need to have a start brainstorming process with income of one of the outcomes that we are trying to achieve. the higher revenue, is it some

kind of a advantage military leave. maybe one that doesn't create a backlash that will hit us ten years later in terms of reputation of our country. one of the outcomes were trying to achieve. make sure you ask that question. second, brainstorm through the action. many people don't take the time to have an open brainstorming session. and they have funny ideas about ideas and the actions that might've changed is outcomes. to do that, go to the creative side of the brain because when you go there, you don't have room for the other to suffer the two. spend time being creative and then spend time being analytical. these triangles here where ai

fits in most decision models i believe we democratize ai this is the pattern. this is how we do it. so we talk about the decision on facing today. i thought greta on tv. she was so compelling. she said we have a climate crisis and the way we solve this is really simple. stop worrying about analysis. papers and trees. there are organizations all over the world though take your money and buy trees in the streets will grow and so there will be more things that will and if most people do this, perhaps on its own, it will make a big difference. i have not sent money to a tree organization because i can't visualize that event to some outcome. if i avoid using i to benefit

me, i want to be interactive and fun experience so this is what i think is the future of ai pretty is a videogame, i hope you do some of this. we can do this and walk through the spaces. and when we do in the spaces. actions we might take and were learning the computer help us understand the chain of events that set in motion to lead to the consequences. valuable in a personal level, and highly bioavailable and it is asian. >> you can watch all of the programs using here and many other author discussions about technology online at booktv.org. access our archives by using the search box at the top of the page, and search technology and books. this weekend on book tv, sunday

and 9:00 p.m. eastern on afterwards, former fbi director andrew mccabe with his book, the threat. how the fbi protect america in the age of terror and trump. >> really concerned what what he felt was kind of corrosive impact of these false narratives about the fbi. the corrosive impact that those narratives are happening on the people at the fbi in their ability to do the work. in affiliate people understood more about the organization and who we are and how we work with ten people are drawn to the fbi. most importantly we make the decisions. the based on specific legal authorities and priorities and policies given to us by the department of justice. not politics and preferences. that sort of thing. >> cspan two. as the coronavirus continues to impact the country, here's a look at what the publishing industry is doing to address the

ongoing pandemic. former first lady michelle obama has announced a weekly children's story time. it will stream every monday at 12:00 p.m. eastern until may 20th. it's available to watch online at pbs kids youtube channel or penguin random house facebook page. must american large expo has canceled this year show. scheduled to take place in new york city. the conference was originally set for the spring. then move back to july before we ultimately was handled canceled british the american booksellers association independent bookstore day has been rescheduled for august 29th printed in the aba has announced a virtual bookstore party to be held from april 19th, through the 25th and will include online events and promotions with participating stars pretty also the news, books and reports book sales were up 2.9 percent for early april from the year prior. led by holiday educational and kids books. however adult nonfiction cells are decline of 28 percent from

the same time in 2019. and book festivals and conferences continue to be canceled or rescheduled. the market library association canceled their conference this summer in chicago printed the cities were rescheduled for june will now be placed in september. los angeles times books has also designed to push back their 25th annual festival to october. from tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. it also watch our archived programs anytime at booktv.org. [background sounds]. >> good evening everyone. welcome to politics and prose pretty my name is matthew and i am part of the events team here printed each year we host close