that i think it been winning for the past decade. >> hi everybody. welcome to this live broadcasts. i'm sorry we had a little delay. one of our speakers to the goldman has had trouble with his computer so we are doing a little improvisation here but we will have him just on audio. we hope that you can hear well enough to do it this way and let us know in the chat box. hello to all of you. i'm so happy to see there are so many of you. my name is olivia and i'm one of the owners of labyrinth books.

i want to start by thanking our speaker david marwell and david goldman for agreeing to switch to this new medium. it's the medium of livestream and we are presenting that tonight in partnership with their very good friends at the princeton public library. i think we are all gripped by the precarious and frightening reality of this moment but there are so many of us in this is one of those antidotes. we are sharing the next hour tonight. briefly before i introduce our speakers i just want to say

quickly that david marwell's book "mengele" unmasking the "angel of death" available at labyrinth or your nearest and dearest local bookstore. all of us in the independent bookselling world are trying to find a way to find your support if you want to buy this book at labyrinth that will be shipped for free. if you place your order over the phone we have phone numbers in the chat box and also on our web site. that is the easiest way for you to get a book. and the logistics i want to make sure that you can ask a question and the best ways to go to that

asked the question button at the bottom and ask questions in the chat logs and a few see a section that interests you there's an arrow and click on the arrow and i will see there is a cumulative interest and a question and can focus on those a little bit. now i will turn to what critics are considering a definitive account of a war criminal josef mengele. david marwell's hook is a biography and a detective story really and he is uniquely prepared to tell the story. he is and historian and former director of the heritage museum in new york city. before that he was director of the berlin center.

david marwell also worked at the justice department office of special investigations were together with israel and germany helped the u.s. identify mengele. it's unfortunately not in view of the audio that many -- to talk about the many sides of the story is david goldman. the two david's our friends in they have a deeply shared interest in helping us learn from the past in order to not past the wars -- repeat the worst kinds of atrocities. david is a distinguished lawyer and the founder and chairman of

the fellowship at auschwitz for the studies of ethics. this is a special nonprofit organization and students are brought together and brought to auschwitz to examine moral and ethical issues that arise from their professions. and the fundamental premise of their work there, the reality that moral code governing can break down and have devastating consequences. i think that with this principle and insight blair put squarely inside of the story of josef mengele and i will let david and david take it from here. >> thank you. i'm hoping that people can hear me.

i am disappointed that my inept as makes it impossible to see my i am disappointed to die should say that david and i have known each other for many years and a problem with that as is we often finish each other's sentences. one note of warning and that is if david answers the questions that i have not yet asked that might happen or i might have skipped a question that i may have heard david answer. i do want to say again by way of preface that i am fascinated by the perpetrators. the organization that i work with in the program where we began by studying the perpetrators of germany asking

what we can learn from them so again prefacing my question to david that my focus will be on mengele as perpetrator and who he was. david if i could start in a different place than many would and i'd love to start with asking who he was. who was josef mengele and i understand we could merely say that he was born with horns on his head and he was the evil incarnate that we know that is not what your book is saying. i'd like to learn a little bit more about him. what kind of child was he, david? what was he like as a kid? >> i don't really know what he was like as a kid and i don't

have tremendously good sources on that are the best source of his childhood actually is writing about himself. mengele wrote in autobiography for his family which was written in the beginning of the 60s and completed to the extent that it was finished in the 1970s. he wrote it as a novel, as a fiction believing that if you were freed from the rigorous telling of facts he could make of his life something perhaps more illustrative than more important as a means of teaching an important message. when he talks about his childhood he spends 100 pages about his birth which says something about how important he thought he was. there's nothing in his childhood that gave any hint that of the

murder that mengele was to become. there's nothing about his childhood that fills our notion of what an incubator for that kind of future would have been. there was no stories of murdering pets in the backyard or being a bully. he grew up in a prosperous family, loving family and with household help and with parents who cared for him and his two younger brothers but there's nothing in his childhood that suggests or the points to even the policies he would later adopt. >> what did he study and what kind of a student was he? >> he went the academic route in germany. he was a middling student. i have his report card. he was not outstanding in the classroom for a part of that was

because he had serious illnesses as a child which played a role later on in being able to identify his body but it wasn't until he got to the university when he became a passionate student and his passion was devoted to science and to medicine in anthropology. he had an elite education. he studied at munich and frankfurt. he had not only a medical degree but also a ph.d. in anthropology. he studied nobel prizewinners those who were laureates or those who would become prizewinners in the future. he was considered an extremely able students and had extremely,

he writes in his autobiography about the impact of his teachings in these quiet passionate about how he was moved by not only their skilled but also their devotion to the science of medicine in anthropology. >> anything political? anything that gives a hint as to his politics while he was in university? >> so, his university career coincides precisely with the rise of the nazi party and its assumption to power. he began his studies at an april of 1930 and he came from a home that was conservative catholic, probably an element of

anti-semitism but not anything that would affect him on the course that he eventually took. >> tell us more about his studies. what was he studying and what was the medicine that he was focused on? >> 's import to understand that mengele posit interest in medicine and racial hygiene and anthropology came at a time when these disciplines took on a new and important meeting for the state. hitler believed that positions were extremely important in terms of carrying out his worldview and national socialism was simply biology in that good and the fact that mengele began

to study the scientists when they took on a new status is extremely important. one of the new status as deemed that the sciences had a kind of what one was called a symbiotic relationship with the state that nazi science provided fundamental support for the nazi worldview and it also benefited from the kind of thing that science benefits from like funding and from an elevation. that's extremely important. the fact that mengele became go ahead. >> was a rogue science? was a robe that is in? >> the science was mainstream for germany at the time. it was not rogue in any way or unconventional but he certainly,

describe him as the product in the promise of german science and he did two dissertations one in medicine which studied the heritability of the cleft palate which led to support for sterilization laws which meant people who had cleft palate would be subject to forced sterilization. and he had at his mentor in anthropology and extremely famous anthropologist and his medical dissertation adviser was the head of the hygiene institute in frankfurt and later the head of the institute of berlin. he was a promising young

scientists on the cutting-edge of german science and had probably a wonderful academic career in front of him had the war not started and things happen differently. >> i want to get to the war in a minute but was he married, children? >> he married a woman right before the beginning of the war. they had really no real married life together. the war came and he had other things to do. they had one son who was born on mengele's on birthday march 16 in 1943. >> do we know anything about his

faith and how religious he was? >> his mother was a very devout catholic and he writes about that in his memoir. he chose to have a church wedding which was unusual for an ss officer. he had, if that was out of respect for his mother some nostalgic sense of the longing to the catholic church but he was not regularly in-service although it had an impact on him. he writes when his mother died she reflected on his cap the cup ringing. >> let me jump around a little bit and thanks for that background. when did mengele become part of your life? we want to talk about you now. how did you become involved with them? >> i worked with the department of justice in washington as an

historian for the office of special investigations and was involved in the normal work of the office which was investigating and identifying and investigating persecuting nazi war criminals who were living in the united states but i was also responsible for what we called special projects. i worked on the krause case in 1983 when it was alleged that krause barbie had worked for u.s. intelligence and indeed we found that was true and published a report in the summer of 1983 and in 1985 and is too complicated to go into in this conversation mengele became the interest of intense public interest and they asked my office to investigate certain and -- used by the americans so

we were asked to investigate those investigations and that investigation then became an international manhunt when we were joined by another office the u.s. marshal service and the german prosecutor in frankfurt and the israeli government both the justice minister and -- . >> so david josef mengele how did he get out of germany? how did that happen? >> mengele left auschwitz in january of 1945 and was assigned to another camp and by may nguyen camp had been liberated by the soviets he found himself

making his way back to germany and he came upon it a field hospital that was in the area of czechoslovakia. it's so happens that one of the people in this field hospital was a former colleague of his is a student at frankfurt in the asked if he could join the field hospital pretty took off his ss uniform which marked him immediately as someone who would have been of intense interest for anyone who had captured him and donned a uniform. this unit ended up being in an area between the advancing red army in the advancing western allies in the area around in southeastern germany and czechoslovakia and it was an

area that was unoccupied for six weeks between the beginning of may and the middle of june, unoccupied because the front lines of the red army in the east in the western allies in the west had frozen. mengele a chance to join this unit and built the cover story no longer flagged in an ss uniform. this field hospital decided wisely at some point that they needed to surrender and they decided not to surrender to the soviets which would have been unwise and they got in the truck and drove to the american lines near hope in that area and were taken into custody. mengele was in two different u.s. p.o.w. camps. likely under his own name at the

end he was probably released under his own name. they are three reasons why he was released by the americans even though he was on wanted list. the wanted list were inefficiently distributed in the camps had not received the wanted list and the second reason is mengele had no longer, he was part of a unit and was well-integrated in the unit that the most important reason is that mengele didn't have the s. s. tattoo under his left arm and the blood type of their soldiers so if they were wounded the medics would know what kind of blood to use for transfusions. mengele did not have a blood type tattoo which removed the most common telltale mark of someone who was in the ss and he passed through what was

extremely effective although prudence to have soldiers take off their shirts and raise their arms and mengele was able to be released by the u.s. without any further interrogation. he then secured the papers under another man's name and lived for about four years on a farm doing manual labor and a small farm in bavaria. and then made his way with the help of this prosperous family over land through the pass into italy to genoa and then by ship to art and tina were he arrived in the summer of 1949. >> is there david, any evidence of complicity with the americans , with any of the allies to get him out? >> no. there is no evidence of any

contact with american forces and the reason for that i explain in the book is the family had choreographed a roost that sub routine had died and if you look in the files of the trials there is a cardfile and in that cardfile is an indication that mengele had died. the family was able to maintain that roost and with their prosperous, with the means they have they were able help mengele out of germany without any official help them purchase the services of experienced guys who were a great practicing getting people over the border in were able to purchase effective false identities for him.

>> the book tells as dorothea said a bit of a detective story and how you with others discovered what happened to him and what his life was like in south america and how he died. i think we have time to come back to that. i want to make sure we spend time on auschwitz. you entrée into this, you and i talked as you were writing the book at one point you said to me that you were quite anxious about how it might be received. you were concerned about how people might take the book. tell us about why you felt that and that might help us understand a bit about how you feel about his work at

auschwitz? >> i should say that when i worked on the case back in the 80s i was, i believe the common picture is mengele is some kind of mad scientist and someone who is motivated by a grotesque interest and interest in not things. he was interested in twins and they came across another case where he had sent the head of the 12-year-old boy to the lab for having supply in formaldehyde. i did have a great curiosity for what his science was about. i accepted this as a caricature which came along with tremendous support from popular culture.

i had seen the marathon man in my head bred the deputy and i had seen a number of these films and a number of books that portray him as this kind of prototype of evil. but i also knew that we didn't really know all that about what he did at auschwitz. there were no records of his, very few that really illustrate the exact nature of his experiments and the goals of the experiments and the procedures to use. all we had was the testimony of his victims who by and large

were young traumatized children at times that their encounter with mengele. we also have the testimony of physicians who had been recruited by mengele and meaning they had been forced to help him with his scientific work trades mengele established at auschwitz or research institute on the pattern of those he associated within frankfurt and berlin, great medical talent from all over europe. he made sure he kept an eye out for physicians and pathologists and pediatricians and medical illustrators and photographers and nurses so that he could assemble a team who could assist him in his work. we have the testimony of these

inmates who are operating with mengele assisting him not because they were interested in the work that he did but because they were essentially forced to do it and offered a different future for them. their testimony by and large, though it describes some of the things that mengele did do not describe the intent of his experiments or the exact nature of his experiments with a couple of exceptions. the only record we have, we have a few reports filed with the german research foundation which funded some of the research that they did and we have a very careful work of german historians of science which had been done in the last 10 to 15 years which was not available to

us. i sat down and i read all of this stuff and a picture emerged that was at odds with the testimony that had become trope about mengele's work. it wasn't clear the testimony that came from survivors, which alleged a particular goal for an experiment or kind of experiment. it simply didn't match up with mengele's career and is trading in his own personal ambition and goals which was to impress his mentors and to pursue his academic work. so i was concerned that when one rejects the testimony of people

who have this tragic encounter that i might he misunderstood somehow and that i might he apologizing are trying to make less horrific what mengele was involved in but in the end i came up with a different answer and that was i think it's somehow it's easier to describe mengele is a monster than to recognize the monstrous things that people who are the product and the promise of enshrined institutions are able to do and to be its more about that than a renegade monster working, working on his own and filling a base of primitive motives.

.. the extent of his crimes and these are crimes that although he didn't believe they were crimes that were crimes he admitted to in his own discussions with his family. was his role and selections at auschwitz, both those who were arriving at the camp and those who were called from the camp and registered in the camp where he made this binary decision about whether they should die immediately or just be exploited from their labor >> i understand the crime of the selection where he was choosing to murder people, if

we go back to the experiment for which he is so known. if we go back to that, what was motivating him? why was he doing the experience? what excited him? what got him up every day? >> part of it was that he found himself in a situation with no moral or ethical boundaries or limitations imposed on him. let's talk about his twin research. one of the inmate traditions, this is one of the exceptions of people who claim to know the purpose of it of those experience. said that "mengele" was involved because he wanted to discover the secret of twin birth so he could use that knowledge to apply it to the

german population and secure an aryan future by increasing the birth rate in germany. this is not true. it ignores, first of all, i think the proposition that if "mengele" was interested in the secret of twin birth he would be equally interested in the parents as the twins themselves. and he showed no interest in the parents of twins, they were often sent to their deaths and twins were sent to the barracks where they were then used as unwilling subjects towards experiments. it also ignores the long tradition of twin experiments within germany. they were 200 dissertations written based on twin research during the nazi period. when research was considered the gold standard of genetic research, i won't go into the theory behind it but it has to do with comparing the incidence of disease or ãbbetween fraternal twins and identical

twins to tease out what was result of nature and what was the result of nurturing and environment. mengele work at auschwitz was an extension of the work he was doing in germany before the war, at that time he didn't have the same supply, so-called supply, of research material. when the war started, twin research ended in germany because of the fact that young children and most twin research was done on children because you need a pair of twins and when they get older they diverge. most children were moved to the countryside. the whole cost of the war in terms of human infrastructure made it very difficult to continue twin research until mengele got to auschwitz. then you have a newly unlimited, at least, an extreme

number of twin subjects. for him, mengele and auschwitz was a kind of cornucopia of possibility because it offered him the opportunity to continue his twin research and the twin research being conducted by the ãwithout any of the safeguards that were even present in germany for research on human beings. for him this was a kind of fantasy and he mentioned to one of his colleagues it would've been a crime against science to not to have been able to hack carry-on the experiment. >> so i know you can answer this but if he would have been asked whether he was complying with the admonition to do no harm, what do you think he

would have said? >> a talk in the book about the medical perfection was able through a kind of moral, ethical, intellectual sleight-of-hand be consistent with their own view of it and also carry-on the kind of racial hygienic work that was required of them as physicians in nazi germany. they simply substituted the patient. no longer was the individual the patient who deserved their care but rather, the racial community, the german term the folk wishes translated ãto english. the racial community was the patient, that you had to do no

harm to the racial community. so in the metaphors a cancerous cell in the body you destroy the cell to save the body to help the body so for ãthe harming jews was not an issue. because he didn't consider them he didn't consider them worthy. >> was he motivated by anti-semitism? would you say his work was motivated by anti-semitism? >> he was motivated by the notion of racial hygiene that racists have inherent qualities in some races are better than others and some deserve to live in some don't. >> david, you see ãcome back on the screen because i'm keeping an eye on the time and

because i see some questions that actually feed into this particular moment of the conversation and then david if you have another set of questions asked that also i just want to make sure we get to some of the questions i see in the queue. ãbis following up on the question of self-deception that you started to talk about here. asking also about his research before and after 45. in the question of his remorseless notice if you can say also something about that. >> ãbtalks about a confrontation that mengele had that had not been available to

his victims or to those who sought him to prosecute him. it was a competition he had with his son who had been was born in 1,944, mengele knew him, saw him once as an infant, once as a toddler or maybe a few times as a toddler and then once again when mengele visited switzerland from south america in 1,956 one rolf was 12 years old. and then ross only knew mengele as his uncle and until the eichmann trial when mengele's name became to be known, especially during the frankfurt auschwitz trial was being conducted. mengele's name became much more well-known in germany and mengele stepfather, rolf's

stepfather decided to let him know who his real father was. at that time rolf mengele began an awkward and from his point of view, forced ãwith his father living in brazil. for many years they would argue and didn't really understand each other. wolf was a student a child of 60s radical progressive politics and didn't have, he had a kind of connection to his father but you an intellectual battle. he would confront the father rather than continue with the labored conventions of written correspondence. he went to brazil, he swiped a friends passport and went to brazil under some security precautions and met his father and had a real competition with

him. he challenged him about auschwitz and challenged him about his racial theories. i don't want a spoil the whole thing but mengele essentially says, gets quite emotional, even weeping, saying that it's so hurtful his own son would believe what was written in the papers about him that people who arrive at auschwitz were already dead when they got there and he was simply helping some people live a bit longer and eventually this very emotional very bitter conversation just ends and they both decide it's no longer useful to keep it up. then mangler rights near the end of his life and says i'm

glad i was able to meet you it's a long letter and in the end he said, i don't need to just the justify myself to you or anyone else already explained what i did in my limit is where i feel a threat to my family or, then he uses really nazi term, my racial community. which is exactly the same language he might've used in the summer of 1944. there is absolutely no remorse on the part of mengele he's kind of frozen in time in the way he looks at the world. >> yes. with connect to a question that other people are also having about other aspects of his life in argentina whether he continued his medical experiment at all in any way or

in the ultimate form. >> he spent four years on the farm very hard physical labor and when he got argentina the brontosaurus which had rich cultural libraries he could go to libraries and bookstores in theater. he became involved with the german community some of which were right wing some nazis ãa few times. he did publish an article, i believe there is good evidence for it, on genetics and a german language journal published in bouradis and is in 1953. he then later invested in the pharmaceutical company and what it says which produced medicine for tuberculosis that shortly identified because the time it really got going, he had to

leave argentina and went to paraguay. he did satisfy his interest in science a bit in terms of his work in the pharmaceutical company where he was kind of the chief scientist but he didn't carry on as far as we know on any medical stance. by the time he got to brazil he was finished. >> i think some of that part of his life. there are two questions here you got the question of ãand one being whether our summons capture hurt ãbthe relationship there might be. the question of whether mengele new iceman in south america or whether there is anything you can say about whether he's part of iceman.

they met apparently three times they really came from different social backgrounds. it's an interesting contest when mengele was waiting to make his way to genoa to take a ship to argentina he stayed in a hotel. when iceman at a different time in similar circumstances he stayed in a monastery because he didn't have the money to stay in a hotel. in that kind of illustrates their differences. also mangler was intellectual in the sense and iceman was not. they were not friends. it's a common misconception that mengele was still in oneness areas when eichmann was captured.

eichmann left argentina at the summer of 1958 he got word that the german justice were interested in him. at that moment he began to find a new place to live and he sold his interest in the pharmaceutical company. he gave his power of attorney and to his wife. he went to paraguay and probably the late fall of 1958 he then moved to paraguay for good in 1959 for the spring. in 1960 when eichmann was captured mengele was long gone. the team that captured eichmann believed mengele was still in buenos aires. they interrogated him about about mengele. they went to former addresses

they knew of for mengele and couldn't find him but he could not have been captured. because he wasn't there. >> i wish we had time for all the questions. i don't think we will. there was another one here that asked a little bit about his legacy whether there is a scientific legacy in terms of the experiments he did or his research or his writing having been taken up by any country in any way in the scientific community whether there is an afterlife of that at all. >> we don't know, we don't have any of his medical files, we don't know what is experiments really were. we know one series of experiments he did which there is a disease called ãban oral cancer where the face is eaten away by a gang green.

that had been kind of disappeared in the developing world. they still thought it was some people with immune systems that were jeopardized but this disease came back with great force in the gypsy camp at auschwitz in 1943. mengele sought to find a cure for this disease and he found world-famous check jewish physician name ãand had him brought over the gypsy camp and epstein began a series of experiments and new treatment protocols and found the treatment that cure disease. this was written up by a inmate physician who work with him in london in 1946 when luciano's

burger, who wrote what the inmate physician, she wrote about what epstein had did and successful treatments for no more. the irony of all this, the grotesque irony, that noma was a product of the camp itself a poor sanitary. the second grotesque irony is none of the children whom assured of the disease survived the camp because they were murdered. that's one part of the experiment in mengele scientific work that did find its way out into the scientific community through the writings of one of the inmates. >> interesting. >> david ã >> i was just gonna give you less question david goldman. >> that's a lot of pressure. >> then we will wrap up. >> david, why did mengele

become mengele? why did he become the trope? do you have theories? >> why did he become the symbol of the holocaust of auschwitz? >> yes.>> i don't know. i think a lot of it has to do with the way the fact that he became such and attractive figure for people who create popular culture. i have a google alert on my phone which gives me a message several times a day every time mengele as mentioned in the world press or any tv show. i got one this morning that one of the great german actors who betrayed him and some crazy film died yesterday. every single day mengele is promoted as either in historical sense sometimes mostly inaccurately but he's

invoked or lately with the coronavirus there's lots of metaphors or comparisons of mengele, will there we needed mengele there to help find a solution or whether trump will replace dr. fauci with a mengele like advisor. more often than not also has become the benchmark for, if there's a bad manager in a bank that he is the mengele of the bank. he certainly has as one scholar has said, been separated, his name is been separated from his person and part of what i try to do in this book was explain who that person really was. i hope i've done that. >> you most definitely have,

david. it has this double notice of it biography and it'd tick detective story but also such a thorough research history book. it's an amazing book. i encourage all of you to get a hold of it. let me just think david and david. i'm so sorry david goldman we could have the on screen but i'm very happy that somehow his improvisation worked anyway. thank you.>> i admire your calm. you are a good guide to all of this. >> and i believe it was everybody's good fortune so it worked out perfectly. >> it did. and all good conversations are ones that could continue on and i feel a will that way about this one. maybe i could say a couple more

practical things in wrapping up. just to remind you that this is one of many events that life ends is hosting both together and with the public library. we do separate events, we do joint events. you can find those either by signing up for our respective newsletters on our website or following us on facebook, which ever way you can also follow us on this platform and get notifications when we have the next thing. also i want to take a second dimension something that david goldman organization office whether or not the topics very much related to tonight's conversation. you can find out more about them and register for those on the ãbthese will be explored

in particular the ways in which ethical leadership also in the current pandemic are relevant and important questions to consider. don't forget to buy david marwell's book from an independent bookstore. the phone number is on the website tuesdays through saturday 11:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.. maybe i will end by saying that we have been so moved and heartened by the response from so many right now who are really recognizing that the

local businesses are businesses that value in their lives and supporting them. in closing by thinking all of you and by thinking particularly david and david. goodbye, be well, be healthy and until next time. >> thank you. >> this weekend on booktv. >> about consumers and the problems they face it's about consumer finance and how it's changed and it's about new consumer effect financial protection in the role and importance of the work engages

and protects people across america. >> sunday at 12:30 pm eastern hr mcmaster former trump administration national security advisor. >> the united states and the free and open society to do everything we can to protect ourselves against the efforts of the chinese communist party, the free-market economic systems, and democratic home governance. >> at 6:20 pm, ruth gilmore, author and city university of new york professor on mass incarceration in the u.s. >> the fact that most people leave prison do a little bit of analysis to see that we could be closing prisons already and jails already if we get caught by two weeks, three weeks, four weeks much, much less years the kinds of sentences people are serving.>> march booktv this weekend on c-span2. >> our author interview program "after words" jim mckelvey cofounder of square offered his thoughts about innovation.

>> emma glass blower. i make stuff that nobody needs. i make art, stuff that nobody needs. in dc i used to teach glassblowing at ãbfor local c-span viewers, if you been to glencoe park 20 years ago i was the guy that taught you how to make a paperweight. the point is, i was in my studio, trying to sell a piece of glass and i lost the sale because i couldn't take an american express card. i was angry. i just lost this great windfall and i was talking to the lady, i was talking to her about one of these devices and i have this attitude toward devices like this which this device is a magic device. it turns into anything i want. if i wanted to turn into a television becomes a television. it will turn into that book. it will literally tomorrow i guess turn into that book.

if you want.it didn't turn into a credit card machine. so i was like, so angry but also motivated to fix that so i called up jack on that device and i said, let's make our iphones turning to credit cards. that's what became square. >> the name of the book is the innovation stack. what is an innovation stack and how you learn about that from square? >> and innovation stack is not something we knew about when we started square but it's probably the most powerful phenomenon i've seen in business. and we stumbled across it. the innovation stack is simply a way of interweaving inventions together. sometimes very simple inventions. but put enough together they start to take on their own life and they create new industries. if you look throughout history at the great industries that have started almost always an

innovation stack at the beginning. i wrote this book and having people reviewed. he has a painting on the wall that's worth more than my house. i'm all intimidated and he's asking me about the book and he finally said,, i wish i had known this when i was 20 years old. i was like me too. it turns out there's this thing that happens, this process that can happen when you start to solve a perfect problem. some thing that has not been solved before. most of what we do is copying and most of our tools and

training and comfort is with solutions that exist, when you get on the world of copying you can build something that's truly different but the process is different and it creates this thing called innovation set. if you build innovation stack, at least in my studies your company will dominate the world. it will run whatever business you are in. >> to watch the rest of his talk and find more episodes of afterwards visit our website booktv.org and click on the "after words" at the top of the