creates this innovations back. if you build it they innovation stack your companies will dominate the world, it will run whatever business you are in. .. >>.

>> and by the precarious and frightening government but certainly it is one of those antidotes. and of these agreements and in

detail and for whatever it is that we do these days. and at whichever from the bookstore. and those that are trying to find a way through to this crisis. if you do want to buy the book and that we will add the phone numbers to the chat box. that's easiest way to get you the book. to make sure that you ask a

question and the button at the bottom and then if you see a question to click on those arrows and then to see that cumulative interest and to focus on those a little bit. >> and what critics are considering a definitive that david's book is a biography and a detective story. as a historian and for that

for the new document center. and with that justice department office of investigations and then to be identified. but unfortunately with the audio to interview david with david goldman. the two david's our friends and they have deeply shared interests and with those atrocities and the - - david

is a distinguished lawyer. and chairman of auschwitz for this study. and the graduate students of that together and with that chosen profession. and with that work there and that moral code to breakdown and with devastating consequences. and with that principle and insight with joseph minghella and i will let david and david

take it from here. >> i'm hoping people can hear me. and to have a tuxedo. we have known each other for many years and that we often finish each other's sentences. that i might skip asking a question i have in mind because i heard his answer. but that i am fascinated by the perpetrators.

and then to begin by studying the perpetrators of nazi germany. and to preface the questions to david that my focus would be on mingle as a perpetrator. and then i would like to start with asking who he was. who was joseph mangalore? one - - minghella he was born with horns on his head and evil incarnate but we know that is not what your book is a. so i would like to learn a little bit more about him.

what was he like as a kid? >> i don't really know. there's not a lot of good sources actually is his own writings about himself he wrote an autobiography for his family and was completed in the 1970s that if he were free from free from the facts he could make his life something more illustrative and important. when he talks about his childhood he spends about 100 pages. that says how important he thought he was.

and of what he was to become. and an incubator for that kind of future would have been. there are no stories and to grow up in a prosperous and loving family. and parents and cared for him that even points to the politics. >> what did he study? what kind of student was he? >> in germany he was a little

student. and was not outstanding in the classroom. part of that is because he had a serious illness as a child that played a part to identify his body. and then to become a passionate student and that was devoted to the defiance to medicine and anthropology. he had the elite education and then only a medical degree but a phd and studied with the nobel prize winners.

and extremely able student but that impact of his teachers on him and with that devotion to that medicine and anthropology. >> anything political that gives a hint as to his politics? >> but the university career with the lives of not see party and begetting the studies of 1930s and he came from a home what was the

medicine he was focused on? but josef mengele interest in medicine, hygiene, anthropology came at a time when these disciplines took on a new and important meaning. hitler believed physicians were extremely important to carry out his worldview.

and it was simply biology and the fact that he began to study these it is extremely important. so that means they have this symbiotic relationship with the state that not see science provided fundamental support and it has benefited from what with this elevation of the status so that is extremely important and the fact that josef mengele. >> was it robe medicine or science? >> no.

not unconventional in any way. but i describe him as the product and the promise of german science and then did to dissertations. one in medicine, which led to support of the sterilization laws that meant people who had a cleft palate was subject to sterilization. that as his mentors and anthropology extremely anthropology famous anthropologist and was the head of the hygiene institute university of frankfurt.

he was a promising young scientist on the cutting edge of german science and had probably a wonderful academic career but married and children? >> yes. >> he married her right before the beginning of the war. they had no real married life together since the war came and he had other things to do. and josef mengele in 1943.

>> do we know anything about and was a devout catholic and he writes about that in his memoir. and he chose to have a church wedding and so out of respect with a nostalgic sense of belonging to the catholic church but was not regularly observant. and then reflects on the catholic upbringing. >> let me jump around a little bit. thank you for the background.

with the office of special investigations. and then to identifying and investigating and prosecuting nazi war criminals. and for what we would've called special projects in the office even when it was alleged and in 1985 that josef mengele is intense public interest that to investigate

certain allegations that josef mengele so we are asked to investigate those allegations and then to become the international manhunt with another office of the justice department and the german prosecutor. but how did josef mengele get out of germany? how did that happen? >>. >> he was assigned to another camp and in 1945 by may it had been liberated by the soviets.

then he made his way back toward germany and came upon a field hospital and in of the slovakia. and one in the field hospital was a former colleague. and then he took off the ss uniform that was intense interest. and that this unit ended up being in an area and in the

southeastern germany and czechoslovakia. it was unoccupied for six weeks with the beginning of may and middle of june because the frontlines of the red army in the least and the allies on the west had frozen. and then to build a convincing cover story and then they decided widely wisely at some point that they decided not to surrender to the soviets and then go to those american lines and then taking into custody with us pow camps

likely under his own name at the end was probably released under his own name. there are three reasons why he was released by the americans he was on the wanted list created by them. but then they in turn but then the second reason that josef mengele had no longer had that part of the unit. but to have the ss tattoo under his arm that they would use for transfusion but he did not have that with someone who

is in the ss. and those and then to be released without any further interrogation. and then filed false papers under another man's name. and a small farm and then made his way with the help of his family into italy and then to argentina where he arrived the summer of 1949. >> is there any evidence of

complicity with any of the allies to get him out? >> no. there is no evidence of any contact with american forces. and in the files

that josef mengele had died and with any official help with the experience guides and were able to purchase those false identities for him very. >> and how you discovered what had happened and to have time to come back to that. want to make time we spend time at auschwitz. you and i talked and at one point you said to me you are quite anxious about how it might be received to help us understand the cultural

so these physicians were operating and assisting him not because they were interested but essentially forced in a different feature for him. their testimony by a large describing what he did does not describe the intent of his experiments are the exact nature

the only records we have to be filed with that research he was engaged in it with german historians with the last ten or 15 years so i sat down and read this stuff with the testimony of his work and that came from survivors to go for that experiment did not match up with josef mengele training and his own personal ambition and goals to impress his mentors and pursue academic work.

so rejecting the testimony of this trip magic and traumatic encounter that somehow that i would be apologizing or make less of what josef mengele was involved in but a different answer and to describe him as a monster and people that are the product and the promise of enshrined institutions are able to do and a more unsettling picture than some monster of that fulfilling base of that primitive motive.

>> so he was doing experiments. >> the other thing about josef mengele work at auschwitz when it comes to criminality and there's no question in terms of scale and the extent of his crimes and crimes that he admitted to in his own discussions with his family was his goal of selection those arriving at the camp and those to have this binary decision if they should die immediately or be exploited.

>> i understand the crime of the selection choosing to murder people if we go back to the experiment what is motivating him. what woke them up every day? >> he found himself in a situation with no and those that claim to know the purpose of it so that josef mengele was involved and then to discover the secret so he

could use that knowledge to apply that to the german population and from birth to be as fully interested in the parents as the twins himself. he showed no interest and the twins were sent to. >> and with those twin experiments there were 200 x or one - - experiments in the not see. and that is the gold standard of genetic research the theory has to do with comparing the incidence and with those

radical twins. of nurture an environment and for what he was doing and before the war because at that time to have the same supply when the war started because you needed a pair of twins. and because of the cost of the war and human infrastructure made it difficult and then to

get to auschwitz before him an extreme number of twin subjects. for him josef mengele, auschwitz was a cornucopia of possibility because it offered the opportunity to continue that when research without any of the safeguards that were present in germany for human beings. and to mention it would have been a crime against science if you cannot carry on these experiments. >>host: whether he was

complying with the admonition what would he have said? talk about the medical profession and to be consistent with that racial hygienic work that was required and then to be substituted. no longer was the individual

the racial community that you had to. and if there is a cell in the body you had to see the body and it was not an issue. >> was by anti-semitism. >> but motivated by racial hygiene. that some deserve to live in some don't.

>> to and the conversations and this important questions. >> and self-deception. that was before and after 45. >> i and the book which talks

about that is not available to his victims and in 1944. and as a toddler and south america in 1956. and then to know josef mengele and to know with that trial that josef mengele's name

became much more well-known in germany and then the stepfather let him know who his stepfather was. and to argue that was the student out of the sixties personal personally and then the conventions and then to

have that confrontation. and then challenge about auschwitz and these and essentially says it is so hurtful but they were dead when they got there. and then in this very emotional conversation and useful to keep it up.

but then welcome back to germany near the end of his life so i was glad. 's it's a long letter and in the end he says i don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else but to explain in clear terms my patients has a limit where i have a threat to my family or racial community in the summer of 1944. and the way that he looks at the world.

>> and in argentina? >> and i talk about his life in argentina and when he got there with that rich cultural life with libraries and bookstores and became involved with german immigration that were right wing not sees - - not see but he did publish an article in 1953. and implement a serious with

tuberculosis. so he did satisfy his interest in science and with the pharmaceutical company in many standards. >> so two questions, that concern and one being with the relationship might be. and a question if josef mengele.

>> but really they came from different social backgrounds. and the remainder to go to argentina he stayed in a hotel. but at a different time under similar circumstances he stayed in a monastery because he didn't have the money. and that illustrates the differences. and with that josef mengele was still in buenos aires when

he was captured. it turns out josef mengele left argentina with the german justice was interested in him and at that moment, he began to find a new place in the pharmaceutical place to begin his life. and went to paraguay. and then in the spring so by 1960 when eichmann was captured and when a series and that they were in that safely.

>> but because he wasn't there. >> and about his life and in terms of the experiments and his writings and by. >> so with those medical files. so in which there is a disease

that face was eaten away by gangrene. and with those immune system and with auschwitz and in 1943 but josef mengele but then there was another part of that auschwitz complex and had him brought over but he began a series of experiments that cure the disease. and with that doctor epstein

in london 1946. and with that stein had did but the irony of all of this is that noma was a product of the camp itself with poor sanitary conditions. none of the children were cured of the disease survive the camp. >> and to find its way out. >> that's interesting.

>> so why did josef mengele become josef mengele? and so why did he become a symbol? >> and for that attractive figure i have the google alert on my phone that gives me a message every time. those german actors that portrayed yesterday. every single day josef mengele

is promoted in a historical sense but invoked with the coronavirus a lot of metaphors and comparisons whether we need josef mengele there to find a solution. and fauci was the josef mengele advisor and as a benchmark for evil a bad manager in a bank so certainly his name has been separated and what i try to do in this book is explain who that person really was.

>> and you most definitely have. and of that biography and a detective story but also such a thoroughly researched history book and encourage all of you to get a hold of it let me just think david and david i'm so sorry we couldn't have you but somehow that this is able to happen anyway. >> you were a good guide through all of this. >> i believe it was everybody's good fortune so it worked out perfect. >> yes. all of those conversations and

i feel that way about this one and to say's of the practical things it is the reminder that is hosting and with those joint events even by signing up on the website which ever way we can follow up on the podcast platform i also want to take a second with those topics that are very much related to tonight's conversation and we can register for those on the

website. and those that will explore professional ethics and with that pandemic to allow those important questions. so don't forget to buy the book from the independent bookstore. and labyrinth books ideally but get it from labyrinth give us a call. the phone number is on the website.

we will end by saying we have been so moved by the response by so many right now of local businesses so i'm closing by thinking all of you once again david and david. goodbye. until next time. thank you. >>. >> classical diseases think about smallpox , measles, started on the agricultural revolution when

people came together. spreading disease from person to person that is my story of infectious disease everybody has their own story but that's when the world starts as a carried a version of smallpox and the virus made the jump in the same thing for measles or classic diseases. fast-forward to the industrial revolution, the germ theory and it's due to infectious agent spreading from person to person and a lot of enthusiasm. and that we are done with this whole disease we just have to put a shot in someone's arm and give them some pills.

so what is happening is with the scourges we have these emerging infectious diseases of there is a lot of factors that drive this emergence so some of those key factors are just collectively on someone that thinks they are smart collectively to have multiple generations in a single day on the humans a generation and 35 years before we can swap out our genetic material? no problem at all they swap genetic material all the time hearing about the drug-resistant microbes because they move around with a good set of genes this will protect me from this set of antibiotics and then you have a superbug. humans change their behaviors. 200 years ago nobody had a

kidney transplant. so they change at our risks to infections change. the other thing that happens is we change our environment. this is a big driver why we have infectious diseases it should not be surprising that somehow very quickly the animal connection comes into play with mosquitoes and evil love with the bats the original of how they spread out the chain of transmission and humans. 75 percent of diseases that you hear about of these emerging diseases are zoonotic with an animal connection. so put people into the environment or the jungle , they get infected and that has potential to cause person to person transmission as we see with murders that comes from bats and camels.

so then it is not a surprise with these emerging infections they don't come from parts of southeast asia with connections with animals. bird flu is another good example where people in china and other parts of southeast asia live very close to their pigs and birds or foul, chickens and it's a great opportunity for viruses to swap genes and attack human and then there is a global pandemic. . . . .