page and will be free to the public. next month the bronx book festival will take place online on june 6th . in their market library association annual conference goes virtual from june 24th - 26. book tv, will continue to review new programs and publishing news. he also watch over archive programs anytime, apple tv .org. host: hi everybody and welcome to this live broadcast. i'm sorry that we had a little delay rated one of our speakers is have trouble with his computer so we are doing a little improv and working on it. so we will just have him on audio. we'll see how that goes. you can hear well enough if we do at this point let us know in the chat box if that is working

for you. so a warm hello to all of you. i am so happy to see that there are so many of you. i am one of the owners of labyrinth books. i do want to start by thanking david marwell to be able to switch for this event. and to go to live stream. we are presenting that tonight. and that partnership with the public library. we are all gripped by the frightening reality of the moment but there's many book second and deserve attention. and certainly this one of those antidotes. and i think we are sharing the next 45 minutes or one hour or so tonight.

and briefly, before i introduce our speakers, then i will step aside and whatever it is that we do these days. i just want to say, that david marwell, his book "mengele". an masking angel . it's available here. or you can get it at your bookstore. we are trying to find the weight through to the other side of this crisis. if you do want to buy out this book, it will be 10 percent off rated and will ship for free. if you order over the phone. we will cost the phone numbers to the chat box and also on the website. that will be the easiest way for us to get to that book for you. i want to make sure that you can

ask a question. you can do that the best ways to go to the ask the question buttoned at the bottom middle of your screen. and then if you seen it question that's interesting, a little arrow next to the question, and that you can upload them and i will see but there is an accumulative interest in in a question. then we can focus on those. so now let's turn to what critics are considering this account of the north the nazi war criminal. david marwell is both the biography and he is prepared to tell the story. he is an american historian

rated and a former director of the jewish museum in new york city. and director of the center. he also will be at the justice department office of special investigations where together with israel and germany the u.s. identified in the 80s. dorothea: and, on the audio, we interviewed david marwell about many parts of the story. so hello to you david on audio. the two david's our friends. inevitably shared interest in helping us learn from the past in order to hopefully not repeat

those atrocities. david is a distinguished lawyer in the number and chairman of the fellowship for the study of professional ethics. this a very special nonprofit organization. and through it, graduate students are brought together to examine moral and ethical issues that arise from the profession. some of the work there, the reality the moral codes governing can write down and be distorted with devastating consequences. i think that with this principle and inside, we are squarely inside of the story. and i will let david and david

take it from here read. david: thank you. i'm hoping that people can hear me. i am disappointed that my netflix makes it impossible to see me. although i did have it and i am disappointed. david: i thought you had a radio david. david: thank you. i should say the david and i have known each other for many years. the problem with that is we often finish each other's sentences. so one octave morning. david answers a question that i did not get asked, that can happen or i might skip a question that i have in mind that i've already heard david answered. so the q&a session will you be imported i interpreted i do want to say again by way of preface that i am fascinated by the

perpetrators. the organization that i work with south is the program that we begin to study the perpetrators and nothing germany. in asking what we can learn from them. so again preference and to david, that my focus will be on "mengele" as the perpetrator and who he was. so david, i would like to go to a different place in many would. i would like to start with just asking who he was who was josef mengele. i understand that we can merely say that he was born with horns on his head. he was evil incarnate but we know that is not what your book is saying. so i would to learn a little bit more about him. what kind of child was he david.

what was he like as a kid. david: i don't really know what he was like as a kid. and they're not tremendously good sources on that. the best source of his childhood is actually his own writings about himself read "mengele" running autobiography with his family rated david marwell read and begin in the 60s and then was finished in the 1970s. he wrote today as a novel, as a fiction. believing that if he would have the rigorous telling of facts, he could make up his life something more important. as of means of teaching an important lesson. so when he talks about his childhood, he spends about a hundred pages which says something about important he thought he was ice in the book,

there is nothing in his childhood that gives any hint of the man or the murder that he was to become read there's nothing about his childhood the fulfills our notion that what an incubator for that kind of future would have been rude there's no stories of him murdering pets in the backyard or being a bully or in kind. he grew up in a prosperous family. loving family with household help. parents who cared for him. with three younger brothers. there's nothing in his childhood the points you even the politics that he talks and went into. david: what did he study, kind of student was he. david: came with written

germany. i have this report card, it was thought outstanding in the classroom. part of that was he had serious illness as a child. template rule later on and able to identify his body. when he became a passionate student and his passion was devoted to science and medicine an anthology. he had an elite education. he studied at vaughn in vienna and prefer to not only the medical degree but also a phd in anthropology. he studied with noble prizewinners either already lawyers of those who become prizewinners in the future he

was considered an extremely able student and had extremely, he writes in his autobiography about the effectiveness teachers on him. his quest passionate about how he was moved by nunnally their skill with the devotion to science. med medicine in anthropology. david: anything political, anything that is a hint as to what his politics while he was in university. david: so his university career, coincides almost decisively precisely with the lives of the nasi party. he became his studies in the summer of 1930.

he came from a home that was conservative, catholic, probably an element of anti- semitism but not anything that would set him on the course that he eventually took. david: tell us more about his study. what was the medicine that he was focused on. david: so is important to understand that josef mengele was interested in the anthropology at a time when he these disciplines to bonnie now an important meaning for the state. his lawyer believed that physicians were extremely important in terms of carrying out his worldview and hitler's

and the national socialism was simply biology enacted. and the fact that he began to study when they took on their study status, was extremely important. it means that these scientists had a part of what one called in a relationship with the state that the science provided a fundamental support for that worldview. and it also benefited from kinds of things that science benefits from the funding, from an elevation of his status. so that's extremely important. in fact that josef mengele went into a position. david: was a roby science, was it rogue medicine. david: know, to was mainstreamed

at the time. not rogue in any way. not unconventional but he certainly was by describing the spoke of the product and the promise of adjournment science. he did two dissertations, when medicine which studied the inherent ability, which led to support for the sterilization laws which but the people, somewhere subject to forced sterilization. in essence mentors in anthropology, an extremely famous anthropologist and his medical dissertation advisor was the head of the hygiene

institute and labor ahead of that in berlin. he was a promising young scientist on the cutting edge of german science. and had probably wonderful academic career in front of him. david: i want to get to the war in a minute. but still about him. was he married or have children. david: yes, he married a woman and right before the beginning of the war. and really know real married life together. since the war came. he had other things to do. they had one son was born on his own birthdate. march 16th.

in 1943. david: do you know anything about is faith. how religious he was rated. david: his mother was a very devout catholic. he talks about that in his memoir. he chose to have a church wedding which was unusual for an officer. so he had some respect for his mother, or some nostalgic sense of belonging to the catholic church but he was not regularly observant. although i did have an impact on him. when his mother died, reflects on the catholic reference. david: image of around a little bit pretty thanks for that background. so when did he become part of your life.

i want to talk about you now. how do you become involved or how did become involved with him. he. david: i was with the department of justice in washington. as a historian the special investigations. i was involved in the normal work which was investigating and identifying and investigating the prosecuting workers who were living in the united states. i was also responsible for what we call special projects. in order to the house party in 1983 when it was alleged that house party and work for the u.s. intelligence and we found that impact was true and reporting the summer of 1983. 1985, probably too complicated to go into this conversation, he became a subject of intense public interest. josef mengele pretty and the

attorney general asked me to and had been turned by the americans annoyingly and actually used by the americans sort of like - so we were asked to investigate those investigations. in those became an international manhunt when we are joined by another office of the justice department and the u.s. justice department and the israeli government. in both justicdavid: so, how die get out of germany. how did that happen. david: so josef mengele, he left in january of 1945. he was assigned to another camp.

and by may, when that camp had been liberated by the soviets, he found himself making his way back towards germany and he came upon a field hospital that was in the area just around rosebud. in czechoslovakia. and so happens that one of the people in the field hospital was a former economist and he asked if he could join the field hospital. it took off his uniform which marked him immediately as someone who would've been of intense interest for anyone who captured him. and he found a different uniform. in this unit, ended up being in an area between the advancing red army in the area in eastern

and southeastern germany and czechoslovakia read and it was in their and. that was unoccupied for about six weeks from the beginning of may in the middle of june. because the front lines of the red army in the starry niece the west had risen. so he had a chance to join this unit. ... ...

>> at least at the end there are three reasons why he was released by the americans he

was on a lot of list created by them but they were very inefficiently distributed but most importantly the reason is that he did not have the ss tattoo on his left arm. the blood type of their soldiers so that medics would know what kind of blood to use for transfusion. he did not have that which removes the most common telltale mark of someone in the ss and he passed through that way is the extremely overlap in terms of takeoff the shirts and wave their arms and he was able to be released without any further interrogation. and then under another man's name and then lived for years on a farm doing manual labor.

in bavaria and then made his way with the help of his family overland through the past into italy to genoa and then shipped to argentina he arrived in the summer of 1949. >> any evidence of complicity there is no evidence of any contact with american force forces, and the reason for that the family had choreographed a ruse that mangalore had died. women there was a card file that josef mengele had died. and then to help josef mengele out of germany without any

official hell. and those surfaces of experience guides were very practice getting people over the border and were able to purchase false identities. >> the book tells a detective story on others and what the life was like do we have time to come back to that quick. >> and went to makes talk one - - make sure we spent time in auschwitz. >> you and i talked and at one point said you were quite anxious about how it might be received and concerned tell us

why you felt that how you feel about his work at auschwitz. >> i worked in the case back in the eighties, i believe the common picture of mad scientist of a grotesque and sadistic interest and coming across the document of the head he sent to the lab after being put into formaldehyde.

what exactly what the science was all about i accepted this caricature which came along with tremendous support from popular culture. and i said and those of the books that portrayed him as this as a prototype of evil. but we didn't know all that much there are no records of his or the very few with the exact nature and the goals of the experiments and the

procedures that he used. all we have is the testimony of his victims who by a large were traumatized children at the time that would encounter josef mengele and also the testimony of physicians who were recruited by josef mengele meeting they were forced to help him with his scientific work. so those that he was associated with with great medical talent from all over europe and make sure he kept an eye out for talented physicians and pathologist and

pediatricians and then photographers and nurses so he could assemble a team so we have the testimony of these physicians assisting him because essentially they were forced to do it. their testimony by and large some of the things that josef mengele did does not describe the intent of his experiments. the only records we have filing with the german research foundation that founded some of these and we

have the very careful work of would be the last ten or 15 years so i sat down and read all of this stuff and the picture emerged that was at odds of the testimony that was trope about josef mengele. it wasn't clear that testimony that alleged a particular goal, they simply didn't match up with his career or his training and his own personal ambition and goals to impress the academic work so with this

tragic and dramatic encounter that i could be apologizing to make less horrific and to come up with a different answer that it is somehow easier to describe josef mengele as a monster than to recognize the monstrous things of those of those enshrined institutions

more than a renegade monster from working on its own and with those primitive motives. >> we don't want to paint too pretty of a picture. >> the other thing about his work at auschwitz is when it comes to criminality in terms of the scale and the extent and these are crimes that he admitted to in his own discussions with his family was his role in selection at auschwitz. those logging at the camp or those that were called where he made a binary decision if

they should die immediately your be exploited first for their labor. >> i understand crime of the selection he was choosing to murder people. so we go back to that experiment that he is known, what was motivating him? why was he doing the experiments? what excited him and got him up every day? >> he found himself in a situation with no moral or ethical boundaries or limitations imposed on him. one of the positions on - - positions the people who

claims to know the purpose of his experiment said he was involved working with twins because he wanted to discover the secret of twin births so he could use that knowledge to apply it to the german population insecurity area and future to increase germany. this is not true and ignores the proposition that he was interested in the secret to when birth and you would also be interested in the twins themselves and he showed no interest in the appearance of twins they were often sent to the barracks for they were used as unwilling subjects for experiments also a long tradition of twin experiments within germany 200 dissertations written based on twin research during the not see. that was considered the gold standard of genetic research

the theory has to do with comparing the incidence of disease between fraternal twin ten medical twins. as a result of nature and nurture and environment. josef mengele work at auschwitz was the extension of work from germany before the war. of course at that time he didn't have the same so-called supply of research material. when that ended in german germany, young children you needed a pair of twins and then they diverge. that most children were moved to the countryside with the

whole cost of the war in terms of human infrastructure made it difficult to continue to when research until he got to auschwitz then it was the extreme number of twin subjects. for him josef mengele thought auschwitz was a cornucopia of possibilities because it offered the opportunity to continue his twin research conducted by the institute without any of the safeguards present in germany for research on human beings. so for him it was a fantasy that it would have been a crime against science to carry on the experiments.

>> i know you can't answer this but if he would have been aske asked, whether he was complying with the admonition to do no harm, what do you think he would have said? >> i talk in the book about how the medical profession was able with morally ethical intellectual sleight-of-hand be consistent with their own view of the hippocratic oath and also carry on the racial hygienic work required of those physicians in nazi germany. they simply substituted the

patient who deserves their care but rather the racial community, the german term but the location that you have to do no harm to the community so if there is a cancerous cell in the body you destroy the cell to save the body. so for josef mengele the harming jews was not an issue because he did not consider them to be worthy of that consideration. >> what is he motivated by anti- semitism? and those that have qualities from others some deserve to

live in some don't. >> keeping an eye on the time and there are questions that actually go into this particular one as the conversation continues if you have another important question by means ask that i want to make sure that we get to some of the questions that i see in a queue. so the question of self-deception and i just started to talk about also asking about and with those that are featured in the book and say something about that

quick. >> sure. in the book i and with an epilogue which talks about a confrontation that josef mengele had that had not been available to his victims were those two sought him to prosecute. there was a conversation with his son who had was there in 1944 once knew him as an infant once as a toddler. or maybe a few times but and then once again one josef mengele basically and in 1956 when when rolf was and until there is i.c.e. in the when his name becomes a memory this

is much more well known within germany and his stepfather decided to let him know his real father was and at that time rolf began an awkward and forced to say he was living in brazil so for many years they were argue and they didn't really understand each other. roth was a child of the sixties radical progressive politics and had a connection to his father but an intellectual battle. so he decided he would confront the father rather than continue with belabored conventions of written

correspondence so he wiped a friends passport under the security precautions with the challenge of auschwitz and his racial theories and josef mengele essentially says it's quite emotional even with the weeping to say it so hard to please his own son would believe what was written in the papers about him that the people alive were already dead when he got there in fact he was just helping some people live a bit longer. and then eventually this is very emotional and a better conversation it just ends and

they both decided is no longer to keep it up and then rolf comes back to germany and josef mengele writes a letter later and says i'm glad i was able to meet you but in the end he says i don't need to justify myself to you or anybody else in my patient has a limit where i feel are threats to my family or racial community which is the racial turn the same way he would have used it in 44. so there's actually no remorse on the part of josef mengele he is frozen in time in a sense in the way he looks at the world. >> let's connect to a question

other people are having about his life. he continued medical experiments in other form? >> in argentina first he spent four years on the farm with very hard physical labor when he got to buenos aires he go to libraries and bookstores in theater and became involved with the german immigration some were right wing and some not seize he met a few times. he did publish an article i believe on genetics and the german language journal published 1953 and then later invested in a pharmaceutical company in buenos aires which

produced medicines for tuberculosis. and then he had to leave argentina went to paraguay by the time it was up and running. he didn't like that she did satisfy his interest a bit with his work in the pharmaceutical company as the chief scientist. but he didn't carry on the experiments medically and then in brazil he was finished. >> that is part of it. >> there are two questions here that concern the question that the capture hurts efforts also to capture josef mengele and then whether josef mengele

in south america if there is anything you can say? >> so to come from different social backgrounds josef mengele was from prosperous middle class family and the wife is not there is an interesting contest when josef mengele was waiting to make his way to genoa to go to argentina he stayed at a hotel under similar circumstances he stayed in a monastery. so that illustrates their differences.

it is a common misconception that josef mengele was still in but a series when eichmann was is captured it turns out he left argentina at the end of the summer of 1958 he got word the german justice authorities were interested in him and at that moment he began to find a new place to live and sold his interest in the pharmaceutical company, he gave his wife power of attorney and went to paraguay and probably the fall 1958. he moved there for good in the spring so by 1960 when everything was captured but

then input a series they made the attempt after he was safely in the safe house and interrogated him about auschwitz and josef mengele, they went and could not find deputy can i have because he was not they are. >> i wish we had time for all the questions. i don't think we will but there's another one here that asks about his legacy and so in terms of his research having been taken up as an afterlife and so we don't have any of his medical files and those experiments that he did

with the oral count on - - the oral cancer and from gangrene that disappeared into developing in the developed world. and with those immune systems and this disease came back with great force and in 1943 josef mengele found a cure for this disease and a world-famous check / jewish man and began a series of experiments and new treatment protocols and found a treatment that cure the

disease. this was written up by an inmate position in the lancet journal whoever was the inmate position and she wrote about and then for those sanitary conditions that number on --dash but then they survived. >> this is one part of the experiment to find its way out. >> i was just going to give you the last question, david.

>> so why did josef mengele become josef mengele or the trope as you say? >> and with that symbol of the holocaust of auschwitz. and the fact to become such an attractive figure for people to create popular culture. i have a google alert on my phone that gives me a message several times a day every time josef mengele is mentioned for any tv show. and some crazy film. every single day josef mengele

is promoted either in a historical sense but has invoked with the coronavirus and those comparisons that trump would replace doctor fauci. and more often than not as a bad manager so as one has been separated from his person and part of what i tried to do in this book was to explain who

that person really was. >> it's like a biography and a detective story with the research is to rebook it is an amazing book i encourage everyone to get a hold of it. let me just think david and david i'm so sorry david we cannot have you on screen and with that improvisation. >> you were a good guide through all of this. >> i believe it was everybody's good fortune so it worked out perfect.

>> and all good conversations and and so either by a signing up on the website or following us on facebook and also on the crowd cast platform and then get notifications. also just take a second that david goldman has offered very much related to tonight's conversation and to register

for those so to explore and particular the professional ethics and ethical leadership with the pandemic a lot of important questions to consider. don't forget to buy the books from the independent bookstore and labyrinth books. the best way to get it from labyrinth is to give us the call the phone numbers on the website tuesday through saturday 11:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. we have been

heartened by this from so many right now but the local businesses and that is no exception. thank you once again david and david. be healthy and until next time. >> thank you >> substantially and credit

markets that they people are so uncertain what the cash implications would be and since the crisis began many credit markets were disrupted and as glenn said to borrow from the fed's playbook from 2000 a and added quite a few really it is three things first commercial paper facility to corporations for their inventories and working capital that so we did and 2008. second there is a money market liquidity fund to allow money

markets to sell securities and reduce pressure on the money markets and the money market mutual funds and this has been helping there as well and also planning to introduce and with that facility with packages of consumer credit and then to make those markets more effective those announcements together with the treasury of mortgage-backed securities already improved credit market functioning considerably. with those emergency powers to remove use for the first time since the depression and then

the ability to make loans but and with the treasury secretary it can then be anybody and with that power and based on that with those lending facilities who will try to ensure that businesses can borrow cheaply and effectively to survive to this. and to corporations making loans to help them survive

the. there is a secondary facility that buys existing bonds to improve the functioning of the credit markets and the corporate bond markets and this is an important and difficult run substantially from past experience also it will be introducing mainstream business lending program. this is a misnomer because it is between 510,000 employees and what the fed will be doing to ask banks to make the loans and the fed would buy cheap liquidity and provide protection against risk so banks to be incentivized to make those terms now the smallest institutions and businesses are eligible for loans from the sba. and logistics is so important

and then i guess they will get straightened out and then provide the sba program and then these are at least partially forgivable. and those to maintain the payroll. >> i associate director of nyu institute for public knowledge and for this virtual event celebrating warren sandler's book. thank you all for taking the time to tune in with us tonight i would also like to thank a few key people have made