will offer a series of online events next week. all of the programs will be hosted on books expo facebook page and will be free to the public did not smoke the book festival will take place online on june 6. the american library association's annual conference goes virtual from june 24-26. book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. you can watch all of our archived programs anytime @booktv .org. >> more than four decades working with government agencies, activist groups and ngos on legislation and policy that benefits disabled as well as nondisabled people. raised by hillary clinton for her insights, knowledge, with human served and bill clinton's administration shaping disability policy in the apartment of education and was appointed by barack obama as a special advisor on disability rights for the state department.

she is a former senior fellow with the ford foundation and advisor to the world bank. she joins us tonight to discuss her life, work and new book, being human. she will be in conversation with our very good friend pamela edwards and abc news anchor of the morning addition. duty and pam, the screen is yours. >> andy, this new age of social distancing is great to see we can get it done. duty, it was an honor to read your book. it is a running theme in the book, how often people tell you they should know they had no idea and i'm hopeful that people reading your book and joining in on the conversation tonight will be brought up to speed on what your fight has been about and all the changes you have made. in fact, that's where i want to start, to give people a perspective and i wanted you to compare and contrast what it was like when you are a young person pick you up in the book talk

about your childhood in brooklyn. what it was like to be a person coming into the world then with a disability and what it is like now. the differences you see. >> well, on one hand the difference is they are significant because when i had was born in brooklyn there was just the beginning of television and i think we really need to recognize the important role that television has played and we can discuss that as we go forward but there were no laws that protected the rights of disabled people. there weren't many laws that protected the rights of other minority groups so at that point the disabled people were not protected wasn't as unusual but people are very much looking at this disability as a medical issue and looking at the issue of curing disabilities. they really -- it wasn't a lot of activity going on to look at

discrimination as a component of what was happening to disabled people. so, over the beginning of my life my parents were both german jewish refugees and they came over in the 30s and met in the 40s after my father went to the marines at the end of the war and they lost their parents, grandmother on either side of the relatives so when they got married it was they were looking to set up a family. i was born and then my mother was pregnant with my brother and when i was in 1949 she was eight months pregnant. my father had just started opening up a butcher store with his brothers so everything was thrown up in the air. to my parents credit while they didn't know any other families that had disabled children they had no idea what was about to happen separate from my having

had polio but they really decided they would have me live my life like they wanted me prior to my birth. so my mother took me to school, i was denied the right to go to school because i couldn't walk and it said i was a fire hazard. i didn't finally go to school until i was nine years old and it was of segregated classes. in between the fourth grade i only had a teacher who came three times a week. today we have laws on the books that make what happened to me than illegal. in 1975 there was an important law that came out in the area of education. in 1973 there was something called section 504. i encourage people to look at these -- [inaudible] it gives

you additional information. like today it is different in many ways, i would say, specifically because of all the antidiscrimination laws and affirmative action laws disabled people have more opportunities than they did for sure in the 40s and 50s and 60s. when looking at this cremation against any group and when we have lived in society that has discriminated against people based on their religion and on their race and on their disability it doesn't change that rapidly. and so i think what is been happening is if a immunity is not organizing more we become empowered amongst ourselves and we reach out to the general society basically saying we want to be able to be equal numbers in the community.

there is a movement of disabled people which did not exist at that time the movement itself is moving away from the medical model and really looking at the social justice model. >> it is interesting to say that because i read your book and i watch [inaudible] on netflix and it talked about a place you mentioned in the book, [inaudible], which was the first place where honestly you got to be a person. you got to be a kid and you weren't defined by ability or disability. it was a moment when all the kids were talking and the things they say that they want are just so basic and normal for everyday teenagers and everyday humans and it hit me when one person said i would like my privacy. everyone had a teenager say get out of my room and i want my privacy but they want the ability to be bad and the ability to have a boyfriend or girlfriend and to be seen sexually and exist in the world and made me think about how we look at people with

disabilities. whether they are physical, mental, emotional or otherwise we are very quick to almost try to turn them into children and flatten them and make them simplistic in a way. it reminded me or taught me just like everyone else that there is a really rich and interior life and a person that wants to be heard and deserves to be heard. i would imagine that's at the heart of your arguments where we are no different than you are. >> right. i think you shaved it very well. for me some of the issues are that infrequently it's difficult to talk about that part of themselves. we typically grow up in families that are the only disabled person as opposed to a particular race or gender in your mother, grandmother, aunt

and uncle, friends and in the area of disability i do not know any disabled people until i started going to segregated classes and i was nine years old. then when i went to camp jenness those are times where both school and these other experiences where i could speak about the call of myself so i could talk about what i was beginning to feel as i got older and to articulate things in a way that children can. why couldn't i get on a bus and why did people have to say have the same expectations and why did people stare at me and whatever it might have been an equally important i do not hear people talk to me or my friends about the future so as you grow older and certainly in today's society people are talking and

saying what do you want to do when you're an they rarely talk to me and my friends but we did want to do something when we grew up and so it was a discussion that we would have and you know, the comment you made about treating people as children that i think is a very powerful statement because for me even today when we were able to [inaudible] it would not be uncommon to go to an airport and i would go to give a speech in another part of the worlds or whatever and people don't talk to me, they talk to the people and with who are there to assist to be they will say what does she want like that happens all the time and i would say in getting back to the earlier question about how things are different things are different and vary the same because the

absence of disability in television and in advertising and in journalism and in media broadly continues to marginalize us. ... what we still find, although it's improving, is that many disabled people do not want to identify, even if they have visible disability. because of the stigma, because of how they're treated. they don't necessarily want to hang out with other disabled people.

but as we are doing more together we are learning the commonality of experiences and the differences of experiences. so now you know with the pandemic one of the big issues that being discussed has to do with african-americans and latinos who are dying at a higher rate. and they talk about underlying conditions, which are diabetes, hypertension, obesity, all of these are disabilities. and so people are in some cases at greater risk, and in many cases they are not getting the services that they need along the way because they are poor or other reasons. but i do hope one of the outcomes of this tragedy is that we really are able to have more in-depth discussions about why

it's so important that our disability community, which according to the federal government in the u.s., numbers 96 million people. >> wow. >> and according to the world health organization and the world bank, at least 15% of the population of the world, 1 billion people, have disabilities. my book is really trying to do a combination of things. one is, reflect me as i was growing up and how i experienced life as things move forward. but also i hope to really get people to start thinking more about giving have a disability that may be they know they have disability but they don't know how to discuss it? do they have people in the family or friends, and one kind of a dialogue do we really need to be having to ensure that

disability across our community is something that i'm learning more about, and looking at what we can do to really help break down the barriers and look at what discrimination is and what role we are playing in fostering that. >> it's interesting because part of what people know is what's in the culture. it's what's talked about. it's what is taught. as an african-american, the civil rights movement is clear to something i up learning about, and not just in the family but in pipe of a culture, in school. when you think about other movements, the gay rights movement, the movement, these are stories that even if you're not paying attention, if you don't care, you know the basic pinpoints of what's happened here. you point out in the book as crypt camp came out or other documentaries of people who you thought should be in the know we take you i had to idea and honestly until image of book i had no idea. your fight was not a fight the

lasted for weeks or four months. you lay out a fight that last for decades. that being the case why are we not aware of the fight around disability rights and civil rights the same way we are the other movements? >> why do you think? >> i don't know. there's the decision obviously not to teach in schools. there's the decision not to talk about it as much and it feels as though whatever reason people do not put people in the disability group in that same protected class or concerned the class. hulu has something on right now about mrs. america, going back to phyllis schlafly and the fight over the era. i can't think of the last time that i've seen on major television the story about disability rights. you point out when reducing the disabled they are the building or the tragic antihero. it are never the romantic lead, they are never the best person in the movie. >> or if they are they don't have a disability.

a few good to go coming home with jon john voight, undated myself, i'm 72. 72. this was in the '70s. he was a positive character playing a paraplegic. however, he doesn't really have a disability. and my left foot, all these movies with our positive messages, forrest gump, they are played by nondisabled people. that's a whole nother issue. one of the basic issues around why not, why are we not seeing more is a combination. one is i think people are afraid of acquiring a disability themselves. they look at people like myself or whomever and they say, i don't know how they do it. i couldn't do it. they don't really know what it is, and you don't really know -- not only what it is that we are doing, but they don't really also think about themselves and

the future. reason i say that is, this is little bit of the discussion i had when i student the show, is he used the word able-bodied and i said no, no, i don't use thed able-bodied because i use the word nondisabled. i'd use it for a couple of reasons. i don't like using the word able because it implies i'm not able. i don't want to have to use the word to tell some i have abilities because that should be something that they understand. i think like with the terminology of people using like the able, disabled or whatever it may be, it may be not intentional but i think the term we use like racist is ablest. that's an issue. i also think as you are discussing, not seeing and learning about disability and the way disabled people are characterized, and infrequently

even what are characterized, i think that also leads people who have questions, afraid of asking them. things have gotten a little better in the following way. going down the street, i use a motorized wheelchair. children will frequently be curious, right? they haven't seen one. in some cases they want to ask the question. we used to call it the potato chip issue. so a child wanted to ask your ya question. the parents would pull the child away, distract them so they didn't ask the question. for me, and this is not true of everybody, some people do not like to be asked what your disability. for me i really don't mind if somebody asks here and for children i really want to engage them. first of all, when i'm going down the street and there are

kids and a baby carriage, we are more on the same eye level. [laughing] i am definitely drawn to them because i watch their eyes, and a look at my wheels and little boys look at the wheels all the time for little girls not so much. but talking to them and giving the parents engaged, some of the parents are like totally there. they are kind of cool about it and they will kneel down and will discuss the wheelchair, point out where the batteries are, where the chair gets plugged in and all these others, and begin others are just like please, stop embarrassing me. don't ask any more questions. you can just see it. but i think the absence means people have logical questions. we're not the majority of people in society. whether we're blind or deaf or hard of hearing or have physical disability or an invisible disability. people need to understand.

children and adults need to understand. and i think when one of the biggest issue is, people don't see themselves acquiring a disability. people break limbs all the time. it's a temporary disability. but as people get older, their site, their hearing, their ability to communicate, their ability to ambulate as independently as before, they may have other kinds of memory issues. we tend to look at marginalizing people. i mean, if you look at what's going on right now with the pandemic, both in the u.s. and around the world, some of the highest areas of death as result of people acquiring the virus are in these institutions. the question is why are people in the institution? people are in the institutions because their homes are not

accessible. people buying homes that are not accessible. they don't want to buy homes that are accessible. we don't look at the need for personal assistance. like i can't go to bed myself. i can't get up, can't get dressed, i can't go to the bathroom. i can't do all these things, but when i'm able to have someone who can help me, i can do all those things. if people become invested in their future, not even in my future, but in your own future, what do you need to be comparing -- preparing for an event these berries things happen? not in a negative way but in a positive way. what does one need to do in order to stay in their community? and really be willing to look at some of the more difficult questions. so that you were in charge. i think that's really important. as long as you can be charged or you have a good system set up

for other people you know who respect and could be helping those in many of the issues but i think ultimately people don't want to think about it. people are really afraid. and i think -- >> another thing that stood up to me that i didn't learn until watching this, you talk and book your parents being told he should put an institution. they said absolutely not. that's not what we do with our daughter, but encrypt camp there's a moment when geraldo rivero goes to place called willowbrook. i don't think i've ever seen anything more upsetting and dehumanizing, barely any workers, disabled children, less naked, covered in their own feces, not being allowed to eat. no time to see figure just sort of a storehouse. it looked like something that charles dickens could not have imagined. the fact this existed in the

last century and that it was allowed was shocking to me. >> so in pennsylvania there was an institution called -- [inaudible] i believe it was in the philadelphia area. it was very equivalent to willowbrook. these types of institutions, while their closing and most of the big institutions are close, one of the things you can also see happening now is people that are living in the nursing homes and other congregants living programs, some of them are quite large. not as large as willowbrook, not in the thousands, but 20, 30, 40, 50 people. and not only are those programs that for the individual person, but they're bad for the community. because they continue to accentuate this image that disabled people need to be out of sight out of mind.

and then people are not, they are not treated as people, as individuals. now during the pandemic, as i said earlier, we we're lookingt this issue of higher rates of death both among the people living in these facilities and among the workers. the workers are also not treated appropriately. the right model is people need to be able to live in their own home that they were in, or any to be able to live in apartments and other places with one or two people. it shouldn't be this larger congregate living program which a really bad models. i visited willowbrook after geraldo rivera had been given the keys by two of the doctors at willowbrook. i went with a nine and a reporter. when we got there -- a nun.

they would not let me in. they wanted me to sign a paper that if i got injured i would not sue them. and, of course, i would not sign any kind of a paper like that. it was a horrifying experience. when i worked in the state department, i was in mexico and i got some of the employees of the state department to come and visit an institution with me in mexico city. because there's an organization called disability rights international, and they do work around the world on issues affecting people with mental health and psychosocial and intellectual disability. they had been doing reporting a conditions in mexico in many other countries. it was the first time that staff from the state department had ever gone in visited an institution like this.

when we drove to the institution, personnel of urine was so overpowering even before we got onto the ground. and while people were not laying around naked like in willowbrook, there were one or two people who were. there was no activity going on, and you had many, many people living there. but these models still exist in other countries, and people are afraid in this country that because of what's going on right now, instead of looking at moving people into the community more where expeditious reason, they may be look at putting people in more restrictive environment. which of course the community will really fight against. >> in the book, what i took away from it on so many levels, are so many of the stories you tell, that people should understand is that being disabled is

exhausting. not because of a disability but because of other people. the unnecessary hardships they bring to it, you talk about going through a medical review with a doctor who is completely off point in trying to understand if you are a teacher or you're going to get on a plane and they won't let you on the plane, or 1 million times over you have a conversation you try advocate for the people to participate in programs or were afraid something would happen to the are you not afraid something that everybody? they will be fine. you have to almost heard yourself for battle every day. >> but don't you find, tamala, if you go back yourself or listen to your family grandparents stories, that this issue regarding yourself, and may be different types of scenarios, but really as a woman, as a black woman, it's something that you really want

to go away and i think your story like my story, things have gotten better but things will just pop up and hit you in the face and you didn't expect it and you don't know how to answer it. for me, you're in different situations. by that i mean sometimes it's okay, i'm going to completely come back and carry you up, -- tear you up. but in other situations you're really needing to measure how you say what you say, you say it too. so i think what gets challengin challenging, it makes me angry and sad, is how much it still happens. so if you get to see the film camp, -- crip camp. i kind of cry a lot and

sometimes i cry when i'm angry. i defended my the other day who doesn't have a disability, a woman who also said the same thing, having nothing to do with disability but sometimes when she's really angry she goes to cry. there's two places in the movie, one a group of 150 people taken over a federal building in san francisco because a set of regulations on the law, section section 504 against -- to scrimmage against disabled people, comparable to a portion of the civil rights act of 1964. we had been in the building. it was really exhausting the people were really fighting hard to get these regulations aside. two congressman came to the building to hold hearings, and they had a representative from the health, education, and welfare office, under the carter administration.

and the gentleman sat in the front and and i was testifying. he kept shaking his head. and there's something about what happened. while he was doing that when i completely lost it. i was giving my talk and then at the end i said, i wish you would stop shaking your head like you understand what i'm saying, because you don't. and then i didn't cry cry but i was like kerry, and the audience applauded it. we've shown when he worked at the state department, we should all over the world. that particular part, people applaud all the time. the reason why i think they applaud is not because of what i did but because what i did is what they want to do. the number of times when we confront what people are saying or doing something, or we understand and we don't mean it,

whatever it may be, we do understand, get out of here, whatever it may be, your skin, your orientation or whatever it is, that's what people need to really understand not just about disability, but in my view about discrimination over all. discrimination hurts. discrimination can result in death. discrimination can result in not equal treatment, lack of education, lack of employment opportunities, income, on and on. but we all need to have a better understanding of what as a society our vision is. and so for me one of the parts of the book that was important was trying to be, trying to really remember how i felt in these different incidences, to

try to make it as real as possible. one of the things that i hear from disabled people around the world is how reading the book is a story, and that is very powerful, and like, it you are making about the book and many of the people who don't have disability saying we didn't know this story. and i think the question of why didn't we know this story, i think it's because people really haven't wanted to. i think what's great about crip camp and the book is that if you're willing to take the time to read the book, if you're willing to take time to watch the movie, you get a better understanding. but, of course, reading the book and watching the film is not going to change the world. so if reading other peoples books, the more people with disabilities are writing the books, a great woman,

28-year-old black lesbian, a woman with cerebral palsy in upstate new york, she's funny, smart. she's written a great book that out. and other people like that. and so reading and saying to our local television stations and producers of movies, why are we not seeing more? why are we not seeing disability with people from all different backgrounds? >> it's an important question. at the end of the book you talk but we are now because there's so many administrations. it takes three or four presidents before 504 finally makes it way through. the talk about where we are today. do you find yourself after all these years of being in the fight hopeful to the things you fought for will remain? fearful that the would be stripped away?

they often say we invest on a pendulum. things go back and forth. you feel we will swing back towards protecting the rights or you are afraid we're swing away from do anything for them? >> i think our movement has really gotten stronger. obviously when the book was written and went to print, none of the situation that we're living in had occurred yet. and i am very afraid about the lasting impact of the pandemic. i'm not just -- but across the board. what i know our community is going to be fighting for is making sure that laws which protect our rights and which protects the rights of others, i think that's one very important part of the changes that occurred over the years, that leadership conference of civil

rights which is very broad national organization includes disability and disabled organizations in their work. there's an organization called the international disability alliance which is siding on an international level. it's an important convention that came out of the united states after a united nations called the convention of the rights of persons with disabilities which is modeled after the americans with disabilities act. and has been ratified and 176177 countries. that particular treaty and the americans with disabilities act and others, we must fight for like all the other civil rights acts. we must not allow government to push back against these protections. and i think our community is more at the table than it was in the past. we are right now playing an

important role in senator casey's office, for example, he's doing an amazing job and has been his entire term in office really fighting for the rights of disabled individuals including people with intellectual and developmental and mental health disabilities. he is, from my perspective, a champion that is making sure that the voices of the disabled people are engaged all the time, having weekly telephone calls, to greet people, to engage people. while i am concerned very much for the country and the world, i do believe that we have a better ability to fight again againste kinds of changes that some people may want, and i'm really hoping in the fall with election that we can make some changes so that we have to be less fearful. because we are not represented by someone who is disrespectful to us. >> you know, as i was watching

crip camp and the show pictures of you being a teenage girl sitting there with your friend, and that we can see the arc arf what you want to do with your life. do you ever, uis wonder when somebody steps into moment when a rosa parks or a martin luther king or laurie stein or somebody come up all the people in the world, chose to step in that moment and you truly have been the person we comes to disability rights. what did you think it was about judith heumann that made you the person who was at the forefront of some of these fights? >> you know, i'm really thankful to my parents. because in their own way, the big advocacy was come they learned about it. my mother with the support of my father would step-by-step try to address what was happening.

other friends of mine we redo the experience and can't camp talk about it. but something was in the and always, i was born in philadelphia but i grew up in brooklyn and i do actually always talk about if i wasn't born in brooklyn i probably wouldn't be the person i am today. i really do believe you can make it in new york, you can make it anywhere. at a think i learned really early on that i had to say something. there was things going on but i felt was wrong, i had to say something. i had to try to do something. i've never been a person to want to do things by myself. i've always wanted to work with other people here and so for me with each play a different role. i think i'm a reasonably good strategist and a reasonably decent mouth to speak, then i have other friends who are great

writers and all these things. when we come together we make a great team, and i think that's really why any movement moves slower. because the people who are adversely affected by discrimination or whatever the issue may be, there's a bond between enough people to be able to really not only complaint about the problem but really look at solutions. for me it's recognizing that solutions don't happen overnight, even when you make big gains like with legislation, getting that legislation implemented, and getting people to understand what is wrong with racism, what is wrong with anti-semitism, what is wrong with navalism, what is wrong with all these different things. i think that to me is, it's a challenge and on the with people to try to make change.

>> well, judy, we are all, all of us, whatever categories we're in, with all the beneficiaries of the work that you've done and it's been an honor to get to spend some time socially distant as we have to be these days so you have to spend some time with you. i think andy will come again and of the people are part of the crowd cast looking to ask you questions, but from a bet i just want to say thank you for what you have done, and a glad to be aware of it. i've learned so much that hopefully will shape my behavior going forward. >> hopefully, i'll get to see in philadelphia someday. >> i will buy a cheesesteak and a pretzel. >> okay. >> thank you very much. >> i appreciate you doing this. we will see you soon in real life, i hope. >> absolutely these days will and as always, it's been a joy.

>> i want to meet your children. >> you say that, judy. be careful what you ask for. >> no, no, i do. >> it's been a pleasure meeting you. enjoy the rest of the night, guys. good night. >> hi, , judy. >> high. >> so we have a ton of questions that have come in. unfortunately only going to be able to get to a handful of them some going to just jump right in here. the first question that people seem to want to ask is how do you wrestle with the urge to advocate can educate, and change the world with just trying to live your life? either time to get exhausted by teachable moment? >> -- are there times. >> my husband says the same thing all the time. he's always complaining that it worked too much but i'm kind of driven. yeah, i mean, sometimes i get very frustrated by how long it

takes to make change, and a people really in many cases still don't get it and, therefore, are not fighting with us. they're not even fighting but just don't understand why it's important for disabled people to have jobs and look at what needs to be done in the business to ensure that someone who was ise to do the job can get the accommodations that they may need. you know, i'm jewish as i have set a number of times, and one thing the jewish community has over the last 20 years but really more, in the last ten years in part because of our foundation boston called -- but the ruderman foundation has taken a number of issues, one of which has really been to look in the jewish community, conservator come on and on and

help you develop discussions that allow us within our community to look at what we need to learn and what types of specific changes need to be going on within our institution. that to me has been hard and painful in many ways because of some of things i said earlier. sometimes it's difficult to tell someone that you sit next to and you go to services that you are really upset with some other thinking and to be able to be strategic about how you talk with people to get some of these issues moved forward. i tried to be a change agent. and sometimes i just checked out. not for very long because -- >> what is checking out for judy human? >> i try to spend more time with my husband.

i like to go to movie theaters, so come because i'm not going -- could've just been idle or still when i'm here. i can go to a movie, theater, ballet, whatever and then you are there so you have to focus on it. but otherwise it's a problem for me. >> let's see. more questions. i found it very interesting that the black panthers helped you out during the crucial sit in. did the relationship indore afterward? >> one of the -- it depends into organizing of the 504 demonstration was a member of the black panthers and his assistant also, and brad lomax, unfortunately passed away, but the relationship continued, i

would say they were supportive of the work that was going on within the disability community, and that was always important. i think that's one thing in the bay area, temper cisco bay area, berkeley, that the center for independent living which started in the early '70s very much worked with all types of organizations addressing issues of discrimination. we got support from different groups when we needed them, and they could come to us and we would participate within on different issues. it was at that time a really important. of learning, and when we had the demonstration in 1977 which lasted for about 28 days, there

was daily support outside the building of people demonstrating. it wasn't just a black panther that support us but actually the gray panthers was one of the groups that was involved, and the memorial church, their ministry is a great activist and a real social justice person. cesar chavez and others supported our work, eleanor smeal, now at other labor unions, very supportive when we took a group of 20 people and went to washington. we could not have done that by ourselves. no movement, in my view, and get what they need unless they can eventually get more people supporting what needs to happen. so i think that's a principal that we always worked on and

continue to work on. >> here's another question. i understand that the camp was disbanded due to financial constraints. were there no offers to buy the camp and keep its good work going? did you know? >> i have no idea. i would and should know because otherwise it would have been sustained. and i think it's very interesting that the camp had like many, there were many different camps around the united states for disabled children. there were camps for disabled children because the regular camps didn't access disabled children. that is another interesting point. today, there are all kinds of camps the kids go to to study about technology or theater on this, that, or the other thing. my brothers went to a jewish summer camp, and they went to have fun but also one of the

things they were learning there was about culture and chavez and songs to different things of that nature. when we went to the camp for disabled kids, none of that was considered like a part of the camp. people were not thinking about well, this is a great opportunity for disabled kids to get together and start talking about how they feel as disabled people. what other problems, what are the solutions? but that's what happened. then people will say sometimes what should we do? one thing i always tell people is don't wait to get permission from older people. what do you want to do? let's try to work together. like the way you believe in and before with that. that's exactly what we did and we didn't know about. we were looking at television and learning about the civil rights movement. we were learning about the marchers, earning about the

boycotts. we were learning about rosa parks. we were learning about martin luther king. and so many other leaders. what we were learning was that people believe in what they were doing. and that they would fight as long as they had to in this way and other ways to be able to make changes that could positively affect community. those are very important things that we were learning and trying to emulate in our own way. i feel like we are very thankful for lessons we learned over the years, and now working more collaboratively with of the movements i think is really off for us, not just for us but for others. >> throughout the course of the book that the support your family plays an essential role. what advice would you get your advocates with disabilities that lack the support of the

families? and how do you overcome the fear in order to advocate? >> i appreciate the fact that you acknowledge the issue here at adult think i use that word much but it's completely appropriate word. i believe i did discuss it in some way with tamala, because one can be afraid legitimately depending on the situation that you're in. so i think it's very important to try to speak with other disabled people, to talk with them about situations or other people, it doesn't message have to be someone with a disability, but someone who is experienced discrimination to try to learn from them about what does it mean to be fearful and what do you need to do to try to overcome it? i don't mean overcome their fear. i mean try to address the

problem. for me an example, i was in new york. i was going to a restaurant, a chinese restaurant, and i had a couple of other friends who have disabilities to . we decide to go into this restaurant because it had enough space for more than one wheelchair. when we cut in we were told we couldn't stay. the manager, owner, whatever, said we had to leave. that was one of these moments where, at first i was afraid, like, oh, my god, this guy is saying that because we have disabilities we can't be here. and that it was well, i'm likely to leave? no way. so what am i going to do? i said, call the police. he didn't call the police. so we stayed and we had dinner there.

we wanted to prove a point. was i afraid? i definitely was. was good i was with other people and i could talk about it and we could talk about together? yes, absolutely. continue to talk about it today because these incidents are still happening in spite of the fact that we have lost. now, the point that you made about having a family that is supportive. one, understanding why they are not, but on the other hand, you need to do what's right for you. i'm sure you've had discussions with them, a finding of the people maybe other adults who have children with disabilities where there being more supportive of their children and just learning on the other parents. but i think at the end of the day it's finding other people

that you can relate to and talk to. you are going to grow up, and keep fighting for what you believe in and get support from people who help you move along the way and be the person you want to be. >> thank you. a number of people have written in to thank you and they say they were moved by the film and they were moved by the book, so i just want to acknowledge that there are number of people with disabilities varies communities you are saying that, and just thanking thank you from the bottom of their hearts. let me move on to maybe one or two more questions. you sort of addressed this already, but i think this person is looking for a specific moment in some direction. this is from my son, nonspeaking adult use spelling on the door to communicate. you are an inspiration to me. when did you start to realize that if change was going to

happen you would have to be leading it, you would have to be leaving it? >> so i never saw myself as a leader. i see myself as a leader with a group. my mother was a leader. my mother worked with other mothers. one of the situations that was going on when i was growing up is, i finally got to go to school when i was nine years old but it was only in segregated classes. in a school for nondisabled kids. we went to classes in the basement. then my mother learned that because i was in a wheelchair, all students who use wheelchairs and could walk up and down steps were going back onto home instruction for high school. so my mother organize this other mother. i'm sure she was afraid. she didn't know really what she was doing, except that she began to realize that working together, things could happen. so for me my model as typically

been, even if i am doing something on the spot like an issue with the airplane when they arrested me on an airplane for flying without someone else, i was there by myself. but i always would talk to people. i really appreciate the fact that people are resonating to my story, but at the end of the day what's really important is that people recognize that it does take a village to make change, that we all play a different role, and that it's really important for us to stay in touch with each other, to be supportive of each other, and to play the role that feels right for us at that moment. people evolve and move forward and can take on more and more responsibility if they choose.

>> someone asks this sort of circle back to the beginning of the book in the beginning of your talk this evening, if you have any experiences with children your age before the age of nine? if not, how do you think that impacted you? >> so i had polio when i was 18 months old. obviously i don't really remember anything about that, and then when i was about four years old i went to a rehab center in manhattan. my father would bring me there on monday morning and picked me up friday afternoon. these are some of the areas were my parents became advocates. they wanted the kids to stay over the weekend, and my parents said no, i wasn't going to stay over the weekend because nothing happened over the weekend and they wanted me to be home with the family. some of father would pick up on friday. i would get the early on monday

morning. now, i remember at that time meeting other disabled people, particularly older people. so that had a little bit of an impact on me because that was really the only time that i was seeing other adults with disabilities who were productive. they were there for a reason. some of the people at the hospital also worked there. so that might've been the first time that i ever saw disabled people working. but -- what was the question again? >> the last part, but they go back in c. it went right out of my head right after i asked it. >> sorry. >> no, that's okay. >> all, how did influence me. so that period of time from when i was five years old until i was nine years old was very, i was with my brothers and my

neighbors, all of whom didn't have disabilities. i went to hebrew school with my family because it was a small synagogue and we went every sunday. and then i started going to another hebrew school, and i was the only disabled kid. there's an incident in the book where i caught out when i was about eight years old, remember, at that time there were no such things as motorized wheelchairs. all of the houses in the neighborhood that of the din, except for hours, my parents had a ramp built in the back, none of them were accessible. so it always had people pushing my wheelchair because i wasn't really strong enough to push my own. as a went into neighbors houses i always had to be carried in and out. so the issue of independence was something that didn't really

come into play later on because i was so dependent on other people. when i had polio, my parents built a bedroom and bathroom on the back of the house, but it was, wasn't very big and for example, i couldn't get to the closet. my mother had to go to the closet. there wasn't enough room. so even things like out my clothes, making choice, was difficult because ship to other kids. she was my mother so she knew what i wanted. she knew what she wanted me to wear. i didn't have the basic experiences of go to the closet, i get what you want to wear. if your mother says no, , take t off, i don't like it, bring it back in and argue about it i didn't have that ability. i think one of the issues around camp and special classes, but camp in particular, was it was a time when we are able to begin

to make more decisions on our own. we would either go get our own clothes out or counsel's would ask what did you want to wear? they would pick things up for you. things like that are very important because kids are learning how to make choice, how to make decisions, even how to argue with an adult and try to move the decision forward, those are all important things. one of the points that was discussed earlier about in crip camp when you watch it you will see there's this group discussion and part of the discussion that's focused on nancy rosenblum in particular others who don't have the level of independence, and it's not just the physical independence. it's also -- you know, one of the reasons why i think it's important for parents with disabled children to know adults with a disability is to be able

to talk about some of these issues, to be able to talk about what can be done so that you are not all encompassing in your child's life. how do you help ensure your child is age-appropriate being able to make decisions? those are all very important things here because someone like myself and others, there is a degree of dependence that we have on other people, but choosing who we want to help us, when we want to develop us, how we want them to help us, , those are all things that we need to be able to learn in some way how to deal with. and people need, , depending on the type of disability some has, people need to be really conscious of how people may express dissatisfaction if they can't necessarily articulate it clearly. we know, for example, that sexual violence and other forms of violence are much higher in

the disability community. for many, many reasons. but it's a very important issue that we need to recognize this is a problem, we need to look at what is being done to address it, and one thing that frequent happens is we are not looking at the deity, not looking at the causes. and institutions are another cause of violence against disabled individuals. we read about in the paper when things are really, really bad, that the daily things that come when we don't even hear about. >> and i would assume in this smaller homes were people living on their own, it's not as much of an issue where in the carpeted homes with are just one or two people? >> yes, especially if people are getting the support that they need -- congregant homes. >> we've got, there's so many questions and we just don't have time, unfortunately.

>> we will do it again. >> okay. we will see you here tomorrow night, 7:30. [laughing] one last question. somebody says what would be different today if the history of disability rights were incorporated into the curriculum, and how do you think it would affect disabled and not disabled children in the years going forward and into adulthood? >> well, i would say that it would be positive. we would have more knowledge. we would have a greater ability to have discussions and ask questions, not be afraid of asking questions as much. i think people are afraid of asking questions. we would be able to really look at problems and look at solutions. we would be able to learn from what has gone on in other movements, what are some of the comment solutions, what are different solutions. -- common solutions.

for example, let's talk about rosa parks. so rosa parks was arrested because she refused to go to the back of the bus. there was a boycott and then the result of the boycott was people could sit anyplace in the bus they wanted. the equipment in the area of disability really isn't there. wasn't there. because i couldn't get on on te bus and other people with physical disabilities couldn't get on the bus because they were not accessible. people didn't want to make them accessible. that's why, people are not going to use. white why am going to put rampsn streets? people are not going to use it. why do we need accessible bathrooms? people are not going to use. why do we need braille, sign language, caption, why do we need any of these things? when people don't understand both the benefits to us as disabled people but also the universality, i love to talk about, i live in washington,

d.c. and we have a metro system which has trains and buses. the way the trains became accessible in the 1970s when they were being constructed was a lawsuit against the city and the company that was contracted to make the train. if that had not happened we wouldn't have had accessible trains. okay, fast-forward into the '80s, '90s, the 2000s. when i go to an elevator in the metro, it is very common that there are one to five baby carriages lined up at the elevator because they can't use the escalator. people have no idea that the reason for the elevator is because disabled people spot for them. we didn't fight for them just for ourselves.

we fought for them for ourselves and because we clearly understand that the vast majority of things that we need benefit of the people. if people were really learning from when they were younger, if disabled and nondisabled children are going to gather schools, two camps, early childhood, the high school, if in gender studies and black studies and lacuna come on and on, if disability was a part of the work those going on there, that people learned about disability in the context of study areas come i don't think things would be perfect but i think we would be much further ahead if people understood the link between disability and poverty because of lack of education or because people who are poor are at higher rates of acquiring the response of disability.

a robust intentional inclusion and really looking at where we are and what we need to do i think would really have a profound impact on our country, and the world. >> it sounds like you blessed us with a lot of work to do. you are quite the model for us to follow. judy, thank you so much for all your time tonight and sharing your wisdom with us and thank you for making the world a better place for everyone. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. be sure to follow us on outcast and visit us online at free library.org/author events to access our digital archives and updated events schedule which seems to be changing every day. judy, thanks again. folks, keep reading and have a good night. judy, inc. is a much. take care. we will talk soon. >> during an another program hd by haymarket books professor ruth wilson gilmore offered her thoughts on in the mass

incarceration in the u.s. here's a portion of her talk. >> in los angeles county decades ago the aclu brought a conditions of confinement case against the county for the horrendous condition in the jails. over the years the aclu was in charge of taking care of, keeping an eye on what the county did to remedy the horrific conditions. about 18 years ago the aclu invited a few abolitionists to come and talk to them about something they had never imagined, which was perhaps the way the remedy the problem with the l.a. county jail was not to have a jail at all rather than to build a better jail. slowly but surely this way of

understanding became central to the struggle in los angeles county over those jails. 16 years later, abolitionists who joined forces with the forces of reform, managed to persuade the los angeles county board of supervisors, one of the biggest governments by number of people in the united states, not to build new jails, but rather to put the billions of dollars that would of got into that, in the housing, healthcare, and other life-affirming projects. so abolitionists -- abolition is how we connect with form, grow

from and multiply organizations that have the capacity to lift the movement. i learned this many years ago that our mean work, we who are talking heads sometime on skype, our main work is to lift the movement. not to leave it, to lift it. to lift it by showing up at the domestic violence people are central to the formation of abolition, as a movement. that mutual aid organizations which are now flourishing everywhere because of the emergency of covid-19, the unions, food, healthcare care, nurses, holding trade, all of these organizations have become in one way or another connected with the movement in the direction of abolition, because abolition is about abolishing the condition under which prison

became the solution to problem, rather than abolishing the buildings we call prison. >> to watch the rest of this program visit our website, booktv.org and search ruth wilson gilmore. .. here's a portion of that interview