>> james patterson, his most recent nonfiction called "the house of kennedy" it's available now in bookstores reopen or online. thanks for spending a few minutes. >> this is great it was really nice. thank you very much. >> starting now it's our summer series features programs with well-known authors from our archives. tonight best-selling historian margaret macmillan talks about the lead up to world war i and ways in her favorite historical subjects. but first, in 2007 she appeared on c-span interview program q&a to discuss the relationship between resident richard nixon and chinese communist leader mao ã this week on q&a, our guest is margaret macmillan.

author of "nixon and mao: the week that changed the world". >> margaret macmillan, woody deep ãbwhat did you think "nixon and mao" would sell? >> of course i was thinking of sales but i also thought it was a good subject. i love the good juicy stories in history i thought, here you have two extraordinary personalities with great flaws and great talents. i thought he was also very interesting moment that ended that long period between the united states and china and started something else. i thought for my next book i wanted to do something manageable but has a good really strong story to it.>> who did you rely on in that moment of meeting was like? >> it's a very full record all the transcripts plus memoirs

nixon and henry kissinger wrote them. there's lots of interviews. i gathered whatever i could from those being there. >> did you learn anything we don't already know? >> i learned something that i didn't know i think. i think i learned a great deal more about richard nixon, which i had to do. i learned a lot more about his capacity as a statesman which i think i had never fully grasped. a number of things that surprised me i was surprised to about how anxious the americans work for the meeting with mao and to have that opening to china. i was surprised how far they were preparing to go to reassure the chinese. with the material the americans handed over the meeting was february 21, 1972. >> right at the 31st anniversary.

>> what was the world like then? >> it was a troubled world. i think united states was still embroiled in vietnam that was overshadowing the nixon presidency and nixon was very concerned about it he wanted to get u.s. out of vietnam. he was dealing with the north vietnamese government sent to victory and not prepared to go should negotiate the united states has been very valuable badly hurt by vietnam and very badly divided. inflation was running high. nixon was very conscious he was very concerned about relations with his allies. he was also, this was always one of his main concern she was very concerned about the soviet

union. for the united states the early 70s is a very troubled time. nixon was very concerned for this. that's one of the reasons he thought an opening to china would help build the position of united states. >> what was the relationship in 1972 between the united states and china but actually jumping back a little bit before that 71 when, i assume, the liaison started and how did it start? >> basically it was no relationship to speak of before 1971. from 1949 up until the end of the 60s there was virtually no contact between americans and chinese. >> and eátrade? >> no trade. in fact, americans have the huge establishment in hong kong which is british colony to make sure the goods coming in from hong kong was no trade, no

tourism, no american journalists were allowed to go to china, no chinese came to the united states because even at the un the chinese are accreditation was withheld by the government city of taiwan. virtually no contact occasionally they would talk usually in ãband talk of the ambassadorial level. it's a very interesting question because it was a very bad relationship. they have a complicated relationship it fallen out and split very visibly in the 1960s and i always think it was something like height within a family. they will in the same family and each of the soviet union and the people public of china

accuse the other of being bad communists. they became rivals of supremacy in the third world. in the end of the 1960s was more than uncomfortable, it was conflict. the soviet started moving troops out to the far east with china and they moved bombers out which are capable of carrying warheads and armed clashes between soviet and chinese troops in 1969 there were rumors and i think well-founded rumors the soviet union moves very seriously contemplating nuclear strike on china to not get back with the few decades. >> did china have nuclear power? >> china did have nuclear weapons exploited their own nuclear bomb in 1954. the soviet union was much it was during the revolution and had left china badly prepared

to fight off a potential invasion. the armed forces were occupied most of them and trying to keep order in the cities. china was friendless. it is very dangerous position at the end of the 1960s. >> when we bought things in 1971 and 72 that said made in china, it was made in taiwan? >> it would've been made in taiwan. >> what was the relationship then between taiwan and china, china and hong kong? those three entities? >> hong kong and taiwan had a relationship but taiwan had no relationship with china the government in taiwan which was the remnants of the nationalist government which went through china 1930s up until 1949 and its leaders stop in taiwan claiming to be the real government of china and refusing to recognize the government actually held power in beijing in the united states for a combination of reasons had supported that position and supported taiwan. taiwan held the un seat reserved for china every so

often the relationship between taiwan the chinese and taiwan and the mainland chinese threatened to boil over into war. the taiwan is about 100 miles off the shore of china fairly well protected from a possible seaborne invasion. but taiwan had taken few of the islands most famous ones which are read off the coast of china. one sits right in the arbor at him way. it was heavily fortified. occasionally lobbing shells of the chinese mainland and high insults over the loudspeakers. saying things about mao. chinese would retaliate. there would be very serious crisis and 54 and again at the end of the 50s when the chinese government started ãare starting to occupy them. relations between taiwan and china was a dreadful one. always had the potential to really flare up to a very nasty

war. >> you are canadian, did canada have relations with the people's republic of china? >> we were moving to establish relations. as canadians we always had to be very careful about what the united states thought. it's always been very difficult for canada to take a path that's too divergent from the united states and on the whole we tend to agree during the united states. i think we never felt as committed to taiwan as the united states stood and we never felt as viscerally anti-communist as the united states it. the chinese came to the canadian government and said we would like to buy your week and were prepared to fight a higher currency. we started trading with the people's republic of china. not to the pleasure of the united states, the united states was not pleased about this.we established a trading

relationship at the end of 1960s our new prime minister trudeau reviewed all foreign policies and came to the conclusion, as he was right, it was absurd for canada to not recognize the people's republic of china in 1970 we established a diplomatic liaison office in beijing in the chinese established one and we moved forward to full recognition. >> bring us up-to-date on your own career. i see on the jacket of the book you moving to oxford. >> was very happily ensconced at the university of toronto where i teach history and the head of the college there i wasn't thinking about what when i do in my term ended. i got a phone call about a year and and a half ago from a place called saint anthony's college in oxford saying would i be interested in being warden, which is not quite what it sounds like it just means ãbi did my graduate work there. >> saint anthony park. how big of a college is that? >> it's about 250 all graduate students and 50 fellows. they do international

relations. it's right up my street. i thought this would be too good an opportunity to miss. moving over there for a few years. >> you are at oxford to get your masters or doctorate? >> i went there and did something called be fellow which is a two-year degree. i scuttled back to history i think that's really my field. and ãboxford has how many? 33. i should know this but i think it's 33. >> what's the biggest? >> you got me, i think it might be new college, which instead of its name is one of the oldest ones. >> is saint anthony one of the smallest? >> saint anthony's is one of the smallest and exclusively graduate which makes it different from most of the other colleges. >> when you start? >> june, end of june. >> will you be able to either teach or continue to write?

>> i hope both. going over i'm going to see ãb i hope they will let me do some teaching. and working to keep writing. i like writing. i got a few projects in mind. i'm gonna keep going. >> back to the book on "nixon and mao", what was the first moment you could remember where you thought this was even a book. or even an article. >> i guess it was one my paris book much to my surprise my publisher's surprise did well. i think they had not expected it to do as well as it did and it came out in england and then won a prize in the day after he won a prize my publisher said was your next book to be would really like to know. i thought quickly i hadn't really thought about it much. i thought, a possibility is the nixon trip to china because it was a good incident. i felt it would be a fairly contained story and not too big of a book which made sense because i was taking on a new job. to my amazement they came back and said great, here's an offer. i began saying, actually my spur of the moment idea was a

good one because it taught chinese history so i knew quite a bit of background. i also taught in a still teach the history of the cold war. i thought at least i have some of the feeling for the period. >> to bring people up to date, i have the paperback version in 1919. originally 2001 and great britain 2002 and the united states 2003 with the paperback and i want to talk to you more about paris 1990. how many copies did it sell? i've checked i think it must be around 245. >> how often is the history book sell? >> i don't think that often. were not in the same league as da vinci code or cookbook. and very pleased about it actually. >> so you thought about the idea for this book. wars the first place you went to study up on what happened? >> started with reading nixon's memoirs and reading the stephen ambrose biography but i don't know enough about him.

i thought i knew about him it is always going up when nixon was president and i remember watching it but when you're a historian you've got to study it in more depth than ãbi found a wonderful archive here in washington gave a declassification of the other documents including transcripts of the conversation between nixon and mao and ãbstarted reading all of that and gradually stuff would be classified because of the foreign relations series of the united states is just doing the nixon ãa whole bunch of stuff was coming out so i began to collect whatever i could in north america i don't read chinese so i got a couple of chinese graduate students to start going to the chinese ã and translating those for me. >> did that make a difference? >> the chinese have still not released nearly as much as the

united states. the united states is very open. it was a tremendous amount on the record. the chinese still i think have habits of secrecy which come from the old communist party days and they were underground organization. they don't like to release stuff. particularly i think it's a sensitive area of more recent history. taiwan is still a sensitive the union and now russia is memoirs biographies and if you authorize histories of u.s. chinese relations with have interesting stuff. >> do you have evidence of who between henry kissinger and richard dixon or somebody else possibly thought about this idea first? >> there is conflicting evidence because this is a good news story and i think everyone involved would like to take credit for being the one who pushed it through. i think it was richard nixon who got the idea. he'd been talking about it before he became president of

where he won the election in 1968 he'd written an article if it in which he said sooner or later china must become part of the community of nations he'd given talk and i had a very interesting conversation who said he remembers talking to nixon about this in 1968 and nixon said, i'm going to go to peking. the record at the time is that henry kissinger was surprised when nixon said it, kissinger now says and has said in his memoirs that he and nixon were always at one on this. and it's absolutely true when kissinger realized this was an nixon thinking he saw the possibilities and saw the advantage of an opening to china and worked very hard on it. my sense that it was nixon who was there pushing it.

>> you say in the back of your interviews and oral histories the interview henry kissinger in paris may 15 2003 and may 18, 2003, what were the circumstances? >> was at a conference, i've been invited to the conference by a friend who knew henry kissinger would be there and knew henry kissinger and very kindly said to kissinger, this historian would like to interview you, don't worry, she won't ask you impossible questions. she vouched for me. i met him the very first day of the conference and he said, will talk at the end come he said i won't tell you anything and started telling me wonderful stories. i rushed back to my room then we had lunch at the end of this particular session with a very interesting conversation i will think he told me anything he hadn't already said in his memoirs or other interviews but what was so helpful was the flavor. it's wonderful to be able to say that to someone you were

there what was it really like? what was richard nixon really like? what did you feel when you are in china? that was fascinating. >> what's the moment like when they met mao and richard nixon? >> it's a funny moment. i felt when i started writing book that that one hour when they met it was nixon's first day in beijing 21 february 35 years ago and i thought the meeting was going to be fascinating. i thought, this is clearly one of those shaky meetings rather than fdr or franklin delano roosevelt ãbi read the transcript and it's not what i would call a very fascinating conversation. nixon had come very well-prepared. nixon like to be really well-prepared for these very important occasions but he had all sorts of things he wanted to say ac at the beginning of the meeting nixon says a little bit of chitchat nice to see you, thank you for coming. how's your trip then nixon starts a number of things i

want to say and go through this and that. he doesn't get very far and mao says no, let's not talk about this stuff. it really deal with those things. that's too general for me. let's just chat. you see nixon trying to get onto the stuff like relations with the soviet union he wants to talk about dc mao avoiding it. it's rather insubstantial and inconclusive and meandering conversation and ãbapparently kept checking his watch the chinese ãbhe said i think we had enough. i think chairman mao has had enough for today they agree and they go out and they were really depressed they said the student really go anywhere and it wasn't much of a conversation. then they all began to think about it and they decided or

persuaded themselves that in fact it was a brilliant conversation. kissinger had this wonderful passage in his memoirs we said we realized it was like all the motifs were there, mao was third indirectly to everything we were later going to discuss. my own sense is that they were being a bit optimistic when they read that back into the conversation. i think the really important thing was the conversation is that it happened. that it took place and appeared in the media. >> how long was richard nixon in china? >> about seven days? >> he never saw mao again. >> why did he get a chance to see him again? >> he wanted to see mao again and he had been indicated to him that there would be another meeting and he wanted to see him again to carry on the conversation but also because rather embarrassingly they had it taken the secretary of state william rogers to the first meeting. nixon was hoping for a second meeting so that ãbcould be included and included in the photograph taken. i think they didn't have a second meeting because mao was

too sick. mao looked okay at the meeting with nixon but he had really been at death's door about six weeks previously. he had been resuscitated and he looked okay but he was not a well man. >> that have lou gehrig's disease? >> i don't know. it's not clear when it started but that's what he was gonna die out. he had congestive heart failure, he had emphysema, he was retaining liquid. one of the reasons why mao had a new suit made for nixon's visit as he couldn't get into any of his old ones because it was so bloated. i think also possibly, i might be wrong, mao although a communist had taken on the attributes of an emperor, he accepted his position and emperors always tended to live in splendid isolation and very few people got to see much. the idea that mao would sit down and have long discussions and know she negotiations with

nixon was not something mao it intended to do it didn't fit in with his concept of himself as a leader of china. >> the interesting thing is both mao and ãbboth died within four years at one point ãbwho is he? >> joe ny was also a dedicated communist. he came from a more upper-class family then mao. he had somehow survived not just the chinese nationalist time to kill him and japanese invading but survived the equally vicious and dangerous interparty struggles with the communist party. he was a great survivor. he had a knack for realizing which way the current was going and choosing the site that would win. in early on in the early 19th he saw that mao was a writing figure and allied with mao and became mao's absolutely faithful long serving second secondhand.

he was mao's second in command. he never challenged mao. it was very wise because mao didn't like anyone challenge his authority. >> of understanding to say that ãbget bladder cancer and mao didn't want him treated? >> ever logos cruelty or that mao didn't believe in doctors. that's why it mao himself got himself sick. we have a very interesting memoir mao would it take his medicine. he would take ordinary precautions simply refuse to believe in medicine. when. >> for people anybody else of

importance you mentioned western but in this i think those are the four key figures also the deputy foreign minister who did a lot of the negotiations with henry kissinger of the shanghai communiquc. >> he put that in your book? >> epithet in my book and put the communiquc i also mentioned something about ãbwho is very capable. the foreign minister of china was not he was rather non-entity who came along to the meetings with rogers and the two talked about actually not very important things. the other two figures i think were interesting, pat nixon, richard nixon's wife cut the engine j the wife of trent a. pat nixon was i think actually much controversial figure.

she approved of the model pigs and looked at the model kindergartens. mao's wife is much more controversial. she was terrifying personality. she'd been an actress in shanghai very pretty in her youth. it made her way up to the hills of communists and attracted mao's attention. mao had fallen for her and divorced his other wife his wife at the time. the senior colleagues had said, this is the nature of the chinese communist party we will only give you permission to marry judging this pretty actress from shanghai as long as she stays out of politics. mao accepted to deal ãbwhen she was tried she shouted out ã

ãwhoever he told me to bite a bit. she used the opportunity to call revolution to get revenge on people people who had given people who knew too many details she had affairs commission might possibly work for the nationalist at one point. a lot of people suffer because of her. she became the great mouthpiece of mao and took particular responsibilities of chinese culture she oversaw chinese films they weren't revolutionary enough. the dreadful revolutionary object with the nixon party took off she was a dangerous woman. >> he told us earlier was no

relationship between china and the united states remote started. they want to mention figures just today i'll put them up on the screen and then they are trade figures. from the start with ãbtrade. the us balance of trade with china 2006 at the end of the year we were exporting to china $55 billion they imported last year $288 billion in this country. that means there is a trade in balance in their favor knots hours that's $233 billion. the next slide i want to show is the foreign holders of u.s. treasury security december 2006. china holds 349 billion dollars which is second only to japan. none of that would've happened in 72 would you think all the players what they come up mao,

joe, richard nixon, if they were back here and saw these kind of numbers today? >> i think mao and joe would be spinning in their graves. not so much because of the trade, although i don't think they would've understood it, but the way that china moved on. the way in which shanghai throwing up all these office buildings the private enterprise the fact that capitalists can join the comet's party. that was antithetical to everything they thought was important. kissinger said at the time in the negotiations we talked about trade and cultural change. nixon lived to see, nixon lived onto the 1990s and he was very pleased by it. he said on one of his last trip to china i like to help think i made this possible meaning the extraordinary versioning of the

chinese economy but whether nixon would be pleased today at the trade imbalance in the fact that so much american debt is held by china, i don't know. it can be seen as a real weakness or point of our vulnerability. the fact that china holds so much american debt china has an interest in maintaining a healthy relationship the united states. >> what's the downside of those figures? >> the downside of the trade figures is loss of jobs in the united states. that's really hitting american workers quite hard. american workers are also ãb american workers are ãb walmart is the single biggest trading partner with china. >> i think 60% at least comes from china. >> the trade relations between walmart and china is bigger than most trade relationships in most countries. there is a downside, the other downside is of course the chinese will continue to try to

get into the american market and continue to try to protect their own and trade imbalance that size will always leave political tension. >> what about them only $349 billion of our debt? >> effective field so much of our debt means in a way they have a vested interest in seeing a healthy united states they don't want is they don't want that debt to become more stressed if the american dollar begins to collapse or begin to lose value that would hurt the chinese. you could argue that the nature of the relationship actually makes each country have to pick about the prosperity of the other. >> is a picture in the book probably had a bigger impact on me than you although you gave it dominance in the book. some of them have passed on i will mention some of them.

stan carnell, forced boys used to be mutual network, david croswell was knight ridder, don folsom with upi scally ended up un ambassador bill small ran the washington bureau of cbs and became nbc news president. jerry traversed with the detroit news went on to be the spokesman for gerald ford in the white house at least remote. i think i see diane sawyer in this picture. bill buckley is at the back. john chancellor i think, barbib walters, ãbnot only this picture but other pictures you have, where did you find that picture? did you know any of those

names? did you know those folks when he saw them in the picture? >> a new very few of them. i think it's in the national archives in washington because of the record of the nixon trip. i have a list of the journalists but didn't know enough of them. i did recognize diane sawyer and a few others. this is the cromwell diagram of americanãb imagine they are all there because they tended all to go. max frankel from the times is there. it's interesting in the picture there's all kinds of valuable

people mainly technicians, lighting people and camera people in this picture. the whole american press was there. >> i suspect the network for vice presidents because they couldn't get visas to go permission to go they said they would come along as lighting experts. so they got themselves in as technicians. it was an amazing crew. the chinese didn't know what hit them. when negotiating the details for the trip before the trip took place and kissinger said we would like to bring some press and joann light coming from society where there wasn't a free press said sure, were you thinking of? two or three journalists and kissinger said, no, we are thinking 700. they had to negotiate and may find finally got an agreement to talk about 100. the ã >> want to ask you about pakistan, pakistan was the gateway to ãbto go secretly into china. how did that come about? >> the americans once nixon

decided because the mistrust and suspicion and hostility was so great. the americans could not simply say publicly to the chinese want to talk. nor did they have a way to get to the chinese.what nixon did was talk to people and he had good relations with the chinese. paris already had a relationship with china saying would you let the chinese know we want to talk. he finally found a route to pakistan. it was on very good terms with china but because china was an enemy of india which pakistan was also very hostile to pakistan was one of the few countries who have direct flights into china and pakistan had the further advantage at least being dictatorship.

that ãbthat's the channel that was established. the americans send a message to the chinese saying would like to talk, the chinese would send someone back saying possibly, would you want to talk about an event message would go back. no direct communications, no pieces of paper went from washington to beijing or beijing to washington. it went through this intermediary. it was a very important room. that's where the invitation then how kissinger came. >> what kind of i assume you're looking for press, what kind of press did richard nixon get overall event watergate hadn't happened. it was in june of the same year. what kind of press was getting back here? >> he got really good press. nixon always had this view that the press hated him.

the press on the whole are certainly pretty favorable to him and the china trip got amazing coverage. 8:00 a.m. beijing is 8:00 p.m. in the u.s. quite often as they were having supper you would see the actual live footage from beijing where they could see it in the morning. at the banquet for example showing live on prime time television. nixon got the press report every day in china what role did he play? >> i think it was frankel from the new york times it was john chancellor actually from cbs, nbc said the nixon trip was a masterpiece. i think he was planted

meticulously. he would send advanced parties out there's been technicians in beijing for months before nixon arrived and the reporters went on the day ahead. he plans the camera angles, the plan where the plane would stop in beijing airport. they planted is much as i possibly could. the chinese didn't have the facility to feed up to satellite. >> did anything go wrong? >> with d? >> with the whole trip? >> some details minor things the chinese have done a lot of burnishing and polishing getting ready for the american visit and the hotel the journalists staying in had all been redone. the chinese had varnished them with a very shiny varnish made of sumac.

some people are very allergic to sumac. they had a very unpleasant set of boils and very comfortable place. there is no major things that went wrong. the chinese really fearlessly did stage management. when nixon went to the main tombs in the great historic monuments of china it's february it's pretty cold in beijing. here so-called average chinese family sitting having picnics. they're all listening to shiny new transistor radios. one of the press can't notice that the end of the nixon walk by someone came up and collected all the transistors and so-called average families gutted to buses and were taken away. i think sometimes the american ãsee the same average chinese families at different stops. this was someone pointed out ã ãthere were minor hitches. the big hitch the real thing that nearly took the whole thing off the rails was the row over the shanghai communiquc. >> one small note in the back

under the interviews and all the history section you list everybody, i can't count one, two, three, four, five people you talk to from canada john small in ottawa clear seaboard in ottawa robert edmonds in toronto. john frazier in ottawa, what was those folks had been able to tell you about this trip. >> what they told me about was the canadian negotiations the canadian recognition. it preceded the american one. what they could also tell me number them being on the in foreign affairs bureau in auschwitz. he could tell me the reaction of the americans because the state department didn't know that nixon and kissinger with the opening to china in the official american reaction to china beginning open relations with china they said we were she wouldn't do it. what a couple of them could

tell was in beijing he gave me an eyewitness account he also knows chinese so he could tell me he told me a wonderful story the night nixon arrived the chinese give a very cool reception because they didn't want to look excited by it. they also didn't know what yet know whether mao would give his approval and the night that the nixon party arrived in beijing along news broadcast john brazier from said it was all about it did really well and woman workers one province hit a new high in the last item on the news he said was by the way, president nixon paid us a visit today. i thought some really nice colors from the canadian. >> the book paris 1919 which i also have here is a bigger book you tell us that it sold well. there's a lot in there about the ottomans and the independence of the arabs in

palestine. for those who didn't read this book ended here our first chat a few years ago, what's in it. >> it's about the paris peace conference at the end of the first world war. it looks at the various issues which those three men lloyd george of britain on the left with the middle man is george clements of and then the tall man on the right is woodrow wilson of the united states. those three men had a huge range of issues to settle. ãbthe man on the far left of this picture is your great grandfather who i never knew but it is my great grandfather. the world was in a mess. what they had to try to do is figure out what to do with it. he spent a lot of time worrying about europe and what to do with germany but you mentioned the ottomans.

what happened is the argument turks had controlled a huge empire which included turkey included parts of europe in the balkan and included most of the suddenly the ottomans fell into pieces. this conference and those three men began to try to work out what to do with the arab world not really taking much account of what the arabs themselves happened or maybe not happen to want what they in the end did and still with us they do the borders there in the middle east. >> relaxed this war was going on if you watch this war what can be from your book about what has happened over there. >> what could have been learned is about the problems that iraq can be posed. there is an uncanny and rather disturbing parallel between the british experience and iraq. the british essentially created a rock.

there's some justification for it. you can't argue iraq is geographic unit what they did was create a country with great many different peoples we now know about the she is sunnis people with different historical traditions. people tend to be more influenced by iran or persia in the north and be influenced by turkey. they created a country which was a tricky country in the british thought after the first world war they could run it cheaply they thought it would pay for itself i thought they would have much chocolate that they could find a local who would rule it for them or if few locals who could rule it for them and they had no trouble dealing with any opposition. i do think, history never repeats itself but you do sometimes see rather disturbing analogies and i think we can say that i know in retrospect it's always easy but for us

united states and the coalition would be easier to control it. and perhaps they should have been a little bit more weary because of the precedents. >> what impacted what happened at the peace conference in paris meeting in 1980 had on what led to the world as it was in 1972 nixon and mao met. >> at the paris peace conference that so interesting was that the paris peace conference among other things marked the emergence onto the world stage of the united states a really significant player. the united states was a powerful country but it was only at the beginning to realize its power as the first world war went on. think united states moves onto the world stage in 1919 really determined to make a difference. really determined that it should use its power to make a difference in the world so you're seeing i think in paris the emergence of this new power of the united states which then

become superpower after the second world war. in the case of china what happens the paris peace conference gate a real spur to communism because the chinese were an ally in the first world war had joined the war and contributed a fair amount mainly in the form of labor which had gone to help build the trenches in europe.the chinese had hoped they would get back german territories for germany taken from china in the years before the first world war and they didn't get them back. most territories were given to japan which was also an ally of the west in 1914 1918 war who chinese felt this was a cynical betrayal they filled the west which they had looked to with some hope thinking possibly the west was there to be a friend and that included the united states had turned on them and betrayed them. a number of the young and more radical chinese now look to the direction for inspiration friendship that was to the new revolution in russia.

the bolshevik revolution what became the communist revolution in russia. i think you can argue that the chinese communist party really has its origins in the paris peace conference of 1819.>> on the cover of your book about paris 1990 david george who is over here on this side would be britain in the ãbfrance and woodrow wilson. if you put the current people that run those three countries in the spot which and relate that to what happened in our relationships between france and great britain and the essays over the iraq war help me out here, any relationship to what happened of britain creating a rock, were they against it or for it the americans didn't want to see france and britain behaving in the middle east like colonial powers. woodrow wilson said we do not

fight this war to hand over people to the colonies of one european empire or another. he insisted that whatever settlement was made in the middle east with the mandate of the league of nations his idea was legally very much is in the world. in the institution he really brought into existence. his idea was league of nations would civilize britain and france running of middle east or anyone else is running of the middle east for the benefit of the people who middle east. woodrow wilson i think he had some reason to think newton there were parts of the middle east that had no experience with self-government. and how you subtly to limited countries? you can't create nothing. woodrow wilson insisted that if the run for the benefit of the people in middle east. the british and the french

really wanted to make sure their interest in the middle east was safeguarded. an existing interest in the eastern end of the mediterranean. what they were also considering was oil because it was become more fuel and for industry and for the british. it was very important because they were now running the navy. sources of oil which everybody knew there were some in the middle east they didn't know how much they certainly do it was something that had become very important. the british and the french go along with woodrow wilson but really what they wanted to do was run the middle east to suit themselves. i'm trying to think of the present day. i think britain and france have a different attitude toward middle east today i think certainly the british and french publics are very

critical. you do see great britain with the united states in iraq today. think lloyd george tried hard to develop a special relationship with the united states. the united states was more suspicious. >> we also see britain pulling out now they have 40,000 troops in their it won't be too long before they have 5000 troops and end up being there by ourselves. the french really never supported our efforts there. you say in 1919 they got syria and lebanon? >> the french got syria and lebanon. the british got iraq and palestine which then they divided into palestine and jordan or transjordan as it was called. palestine part of palestine became israel palestinian territories. eventually jordan transjordan

became jordan. i think the political circumstances are very different today the british i think pulling out of iraq. i think the americans are saying very pleased about it. did cheney was on television the other night saying we see this is a very necessary move into victory. i don't know. i suspect it's british public opinion. an opinion party is i think turning very much against the occupation in iraq.>> in your book you discuss ãband the need that they wanted to place the place to go. >> ãbwas very powerful movement among the jews of the world. american jews really became as a result of hitler and the second world war. there was a lot of pressure among the jewish communities in britain and france and elsewhere to have a homeland of their own. europe still had very unpleasant anti-semitic and parts of the world and europe and russia where jews didn't

feel safe and were very badly treated. understandably looking for homeland. >> who was interested in uganda for a jewish state? >> ãbthe founder of the movement was interested because it was in the 1880s was the heydays of western imperialism. like why not take a bit. there is also talk of mozambique.some talk i think at one point of buying a bit of latin america. the religious ties and the ties of memory back to what was in those days the providence of the empire back to palestine which contained all the holy places in jerusalem and elsewhere. >> to the brits want israel? >> it was divided. but majority very much for it

so his foreign secretary. i think is real maybe not but they want a jewish homeland in palestine. i think the reason was partly sentimental. a lot of them grew up in the bible. the idea of the jews returning to their homeland was something i think was tremendous emotional for them and they they also felt that a jewish presence there would help safeguard the suez canal which is a very important link for the british to the empire in india. they didn't think and nor did the zionists think that the local population of what was very back part of the empire was massive they didn't think they had an opinion. very few of them foresaw a problem. the british also thought during the first world war that they could promise the jewish homeland they would win over what they saw is very important influential jewish bankers for example the united states it would help to make german jews

who were very important in the community in germany critical of their own governments. they did it for a whole variety of reasons.>> what was french his attitude about israel? >> the french went along with the british when the british said we approve in the declaration we approve the jewish homeland. >> who is belford? >> the british foreign secretary. he came in the form of ãbone a leader the british jewish community. he said his majesty's government looked with favor upon the wrist establishment of the jewish homeland in palestine. that i think about the point leader of one of the leaders of the world zionist movement who got the letter written and for a lot of the supporters of the jewish presence in palestine that was really a promise of the state and they knew it. they knew that a jewish homeland had the potential to grow into a state and for a lot of it this lot of the jews in europe and american jews this

was the beginning of the return to the homeland and the possibility of the jewish state with jewish in the majority and say. the british i think foolishly didn't recognize some of the difficulties they were getting to and also at the same time promised arab leaders if they ã ãwere fighting with the germans if they went up against the ottomans there would be independent arab state. from the airport and you british were promising arab independence but at the same time promising a piece of arab territory to this group coming in from outside. that leads to the feeling that the arabs have a being betrayed and it's poisoned relations between jews and arabs in the middle east ever since. and poisoned relations between the west. ask what's your sense based on what you know what would happen in a place like iraq or the middle east, more broadly or israel? >> israel seems to be such a deeply divided society and they've also got a huge

demographic problem that their population the population arabs in israel and the occupied territories of the west bank is growing. i think israel is gonna have to make very hard decisions in the near future but it's difficult because i think is really politics is complex it's very hard to get clear decisions. i think the middle east is very prospect. i see iraq sliding steps further into anarchy. we can't forget 17 words of civil war, vast destruction. and the awful prospect for a rocket can take that long to play itself out. were always seeing a transfer the population. we are already seeing ethnic cleansing. sunni being driven out of she areas and she is being driven out of sunni areas.

it's very hard to see what will happen. one prospect might be is if a major regional players including the united states clearly to iran and turkey and the could work a political solution for rock but i don't see that happening. i don't see united states and iran talking anytime soon. that seems to me as a great problem. >> when you start again at saint anthony in oxford? >> i start technically the beginning of july. i will spend the summer moving. >> with the average age of the student to come to that 250 person graduate school. >> it would be ãb21, 22, 23. >> what's the next book? >> and get into little bit of uses and abuses in history because i think history by

national leaders creating histories where people have always been right everyone else's always been wrong they always had a right to the land nobody else has it. two religious leaders who create histories of potential enemies ...... >> guest: ten years. c-span: she was in school the

great granddaughter of the prime minister of britain and the author of nixon and mao in the bookstores now. a >> guest: thank you.