notebooks and a pen because my goal was to see what could be shown to me. >> this is all i've got. >> hello, everyone, welcome and thank you for joining us from around the world. we've got people from st. louis and harlem and chicago, from albuquerque, from dallas, from the bronx and melbourne. we are pleased to have you here, my name is maya marshal, editor of haymarket books. before i introduce dr. glaude

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captions click cc on the bottom of the video. if you're having problems with closed caption they'll be a feed, thank you to maggie rumfelt for caption this event. thank you very much. what we will do we will have a conversation with the brilliant humans for about 40 minutes and ask a question, interview about events and then we we will have a q&action section and now when you have questions you will put them in the chat. it's my pleasure to introduce dr. glaude and dr. west. most well-known, democracy in black, how race still enslave it is american soul and shade of blue and african american

studies and the share of african american studies at princeton university. if anything of that has changed, you will have to tell us. [laughter] >> dr. west, professor of practice of philosophy at harvard school, best known for democracy matters and memoir brother west living out loud. here is the host of new podcast. we will be discussing dr. glau dr. glaude's book that was released yesterday. the book is beautiful. it's hopeful in in a moment whee we need that. i'm going to read just a little bit of where this book gets its name from and then we will start now. it begins -- the beginning in

encouraging space. all of the love and labor seem to come to nothing was scattered. we knew where we had been, what we had tried to do, who had cracked, gone mad, died or been murdered around us. not everything is lost. responsibility cannot be lost. it can only be abdictated, if one refuses abdicatio, in one begins again. >> thank you, i'm so delighted to be here. thank you, maya. >> i'm so happy to have you, why baldwin and why now? >> well, you know, we saw, first of all, let me thank everybody for making this possible, all of the folks at haymarket press, i want to specifically thank

dr. west who has within so important in my life who has exhibited the kind of love that developed me and made me possible, and so this is make -- this is making my heart smile just to be with you in this moment, so it's exciting and, yeah, i'm 51 year's old and i'm still getty. it's hilarious. [laughter] >> why baldwin, why now? in some ways we saw baldwin emerge in the context of 2014 and even before as black lives matter was the beginning to give voice to its own desire for more just america. they were reaching for jimmy's voice, clear black man who spoke kind of truth, straight, no chaser who carried rage and love, who queered african-american politics, who queered african politics who

offered different kind of understanding of what it meant to reach for a different way of being in the world but i wanted to turn to baldwin because i was trying to grapple with my own despair and allusion in this moment, so after the extraordinary moment of 2008, the election of barack obama, we saw for 8 years what that meant and then we witnessed police murdering our brothers and sisters, and we saw these young folks in the streets risking life and limb and then what did we see in response, voter id law s and voter suppression and the country vomited donald trump. and this is the moment of betrayal and profound betrayal. the country had did it again, and so what i wanted to do was to return to jimmy who had been

invoked so much in this moment to figure out how he dealt with his moment of betrayal. he's one of the most insightful critics. >> that makes perfect sense. you pointed again to the notion of hope and practice of constant rebuilding, i wonder if each of you can take a moment and our

responsibilities to care for the witness. right, we have seen so many nasty things happen to witnesses like ramsey or frasier who witnessed the murder of george floyd for us and shared that information and how do we practice hope and responsibility of witnessing. how do we take care of our witnesses? >> i would love to hear what you think, doc. >> oh, first i want to say sister maya, her work, haymarket, poetry section and manuscript section, they are blessed to have you my dear sister. >> thank you, sr. this brother right here, lord have mercy, just looking in his eyes and remembering 30 years ago i was fairly convinced that sitting next to my brother lewis, jr., brother, you see

that brother talking about afro centrist, i say he's going to be one of the great example -- ex exemplars in our tradition. love is a beauty, love is a goodness and love is truth and love of god, and those 30 years have been such a magnificent journey for me. this is a joy us occasion in the grim days in the decay of american empire. see what you have in this text. what you have in this text the way you attempt to regenerate and revitalize the greatness of a tradition of plaque

intellectuals or any intellectuals concerned about black doings and sufferings so she begins with baldwin talking about the end of his life. this is where hope comes from. i tried to do my work he says, i hope somebody will find when they dig in wreckage and rubble and the ruins something that could be of use to them to find best of me, this is what we have in this text. that's why it brings tears to one's eyes. like hear the sister aretha, she start taking a whole new level. listening to mary lewis on the piano and take mary lou, eddy glaude is exemplary failure as well. we have jonathan out there, we

have mark, we have william hart and old brother dyson, he's part of that too. imani terry, griffin, we have a whole cloud of witnesses to keep tradition alive so eddy glaude represents the voices of a cloud of witnesses, custodian of a rich inheritance. this is why engage with somebody like baldwin, highest levels of greatness not just in terms of sales but the greatness of the text is not just number, what went into it, the courage, the courage to love and the courage to generate hope and to practice hope is to be connected to the

best of one's tradition to understand what is going to do the making and molding that my point of love down in gut-bucket magnificent mississippi. you see, that's what is in it. look at the smile. that's what's in it and to make that tradition available to the whole world, the whole world dealing with different level capacity. so that's what you actually get in begin again and let's be honest about it, it's the blood-soaked and yet soulful tradition. that's what you get in the text. >> absolutely. you know, doc, first of all, i hope my momma is listening. that's what i want -- i'm afraid that she heard that because you

will bring me to tears, but there's a line -- there's so many lines that will plow you away but a moment in istanbul being interviewed by ebony and he uses begin again and baldwin as sitting there and it's 1970, i think, and -- and the interview e asks him was it about hope? baldwin retreats, this is on page 145 in the text. >> i remember, i remember that. will be right, baldwin -- >> i remember exactly what it says. >> what did he say? >> hope must be invented every day, every day. invented every day. is that right? >> that's right. >> you see, that's our tradition, brother. >> that's our tradition. >> that's our tradition. now hope is not abstract, it's

verb, motion, it's deep and you have to be blues like about it, you better reinvent that thing every day, good morning heartache, i have to reinvent my resources to deal with the heartache that's going to come back the next day. >> exactly. >> it's going to come back the next day, you have billy holiday echoing through with baldwin right there. he understands the musicians mean the world to him. >> absolutely. so i was thinking about that line as an answer to maya. can the face of the assassination of dr. king, where they murdered apostle of love and jimmy collapses could barely pick up the pieces, tries to commit suicide in '69, has to find relationships around him.

still thinks he's this loveless child who is ugly because his daddy told him he was so ugly that he didn't believe that nobody could love that ugly little boy. find himself in istanbul and there he gives line of what doc layed out, hope is invented every day. >> every day. that's real, brother. that's real. >> a necessary practice that we, in fact, are the hope, you know, it is our commitment to showing up, that is the hope, that's the practice of witness and he was just so right so often. >> sister maya, all the courage and risk and willingness to be

crushed is misunderstood, misconstrued and thoroughly pushed through the fringes and still had the kind of bounce-back, you see. you see what i mean? so, you know, what we have in book here in the middle of a blues like the situation in the u.s. empire, he's saying, you know, this ain't new for us. we have before -- before. it's not a human thing. not just black thing. human beings. plaque people don't have to prove nothing to nobody and have to learn how to love and find hope and laugh in our families

and momma, synagogues, surges, in your universities. eddy working that out in prison. you know princeton didn't have in mind mississippi. [laughter] >> to be distinguished university professor. now, just not surprised, he's a fellow colleague, i'm not surprised, we have teachers and those who see us as we continue to grow and mature. we are not surprised but then the fact that he's like baldwin connected to the best of his tradition. >> right. >> that's the thing about it that, you know, the other moment, when he tells the students. i won't. no, you tell the story, brother. >> gorgeous moment.

nonviolent action group. they produced the radical cohort in the group, they all come out of that group so they invite him to come to camp, she's supposed to be on stage with ross, who couldn't make it and was too sick, ivy davis and others, he lays bear and they retreat after panel discussion. malcolm was in the audience too. they get the liquor and they are talking into the late midnight hour till the sun begins to come up and baldwin has the last word and jimmy, said if you promise

your elder brother that you would not believe, i will promise you that i will never betray you. jimmy never betrayed us no matter what they said about it. never betrayed us. >> that's powerful. i was sitting next to carmichael at the funeral december 1987 st. john cathedral and a genius and started crying like a baby. i've traveled with stokely and he's not the crying kind of brother because he -- [laughter] >> given all of us as human

beings, baldwin never sold out. he was never fake, he was never phoney, he was never fraud, he was never a coward given all ups and downs. two suicide attempts, right. >> 55 and 69. >> he's wrestling with despair. that's true for all of us. wrestling with despair but he never betrayed every day black people, really everyday people, you see, that's a rare thing. it's a beautiful thing. it's majestic, it's sublime actually. you're able to use that. this is why this is the most important text ever written on baldwin in terms of genius and relevance. now, you know, brother, ed probably check brother in blues and connection with music but in terms of the relevance of this

particular historical moment politically, morally and spiritualty, this is the text, this is the one, absolutely. >> made it abundantly clear that james baldwin was a man who was facing demons because he was a person who believed from your experiences, your reality and maybe you can give some distance to give perspective because you had to show up for your people and for yourself and that's abundantly clear throughout the text. >> yeah, you know, maya, such a great point. i barely survived writing the book because, you know, i wanted to come in and i'm reading, you know, jimmy, i've always had this kind of -- i knew -- i knew what i decided to start reading and that he was going to ask things of me that i wasn't quite ready for when i was younger,

right, and the sense which baldwin always assumes this as precondition to say anything about the messiness of the world. you to deal with your own mess. you have to deal with interior wounds and pains as precondition to say anything about the world because baldwin thinks that the messiness of the world is a reflection of the lives and dishonesty that we tell ourselves and so i'm sitting here want to go write about trumpism and the moment and i'm grappling with the fact that i'm a vulnerable little boy. still dealing with my daddy issues, still grappling with the fact that he could just -- that's why i began this way, my father -- i love my father, black love. he made me possible. woke up every day in the mississippi heat used to take sweat his belts rotten in the mississippi heat, delivering mail, but he could look at me and scare me to death.

i would shutter and i've been grappling with what it means to have that fear put inside of me so early, and i was -- as i was writing the sentences came out, right, about me dealing with my daddy and, you know, by the time i get to the end of the novel, end of the book, my father is with me as i visit jimmy's grave and i'm talking about how us telling each other how we love each other, how he's calling me to tell me what to say on television and how proud he is and when you read jimmy, you read baldwin notes of a native son, his critique of stepfather is scathing but you read baldwin by the time he's about to die in

december, the later writing about his father, he understands what the world did to him. it's not so much him, but the context of his living. so i think this -- the writing of begin again is a kind of writing that i've never done in public before. i'm taking risks because jimmy demanded it of me and i -- and i should say this really quickly. he forced me to deal with the scaffolding of my own lives. >> and asking that of our country as well. those of us who are trying to pull the nation back from the near fascist moment to be honest with ourselves because the narratives are important so take a moment to speak of your definition of both lie and as you talk in the book and notion

of value gap resolving those things. i would love to hear the two of you discuss that. >> well, you know, the best way to talk about the lies, to quote a passage from page 9, jimmy's essay, 1964 essay the white problem. he wrote it for goodwin's edited emancipation. the people who settled the country had law and they could recognize man when they saw one. they knew he wasn't anything else but a man but since they were christian and since they had already decided that they came here to establish a free country, the only way to justify the role this was playing in one's life was to say that he was not a man or if he wasn't, then no crime had been committed. that lie is the basis of our president trump. and so what baldwin is saying here, the heart of it, there have been lies told about black

people, capacities of character and passions all to justify right, this system of exploitation, this system, barbaric system of slavery that is at the heart of the founding to have modern world, right, at the heart of the founding of the country and so not only do you have lies about black people, you have lies about what white americans have done to black people and then you have the lie that is so -- this is the key point. there's a way in which the lie works that it malforms, i use that, anything that comes to reveal the truth of what the -- of what the nation has done, what it has done to the native people, what it has done in haiti and cuba and the

philippines, what it has done in hiroshima, america is not the shining constituent of the hill or example on the hill, everything that attempts to reveal the reality is dismissed as hearsay. >> exactly. >> from the beginning. anyway, that's what i mean by the lie and the lie is the architecture with which the value gap and white people more than others and it's at the heart of social arrangements, political arrangements, it's valuation of black folks and white folks and lead to disadvantage that distorts character and they can't become kind of people that conception of democracy requires. >> absolutely. sounds to me what you're saying the key tool, the foundational

fear that we are born with is to have a true reality, sense of who we actually are, that we, in fact, are human without having to ask that we are equal that we are as important that we are deserving of love, crucial truth that we have to hold in our hearts in order to fight the fear that enters immediately at the beginning of our breath. .. .. a story we have told about america being a sanctioned nation called to be a beacon of light in the world force in the world is a lot.

the of a lost cause is an honest assessment, full rights movement and racial progress and doctor king's moral vision culminating in the election of barack obama all too often lies. i wonder what do we gain if we disabuse ourselves of the notion of innocence as it relates to the citizenry and the state? >> we could leave behind the swaddling clothing. [laughter]. like it is never never land, perpetual state of adolescence so you don't have to be responsible for anything.

and talks about what happened, not just in line but echoed. what is that, they don't know and they don't show. john singleton, and they don't -- they willfully don't want to acknowledge what they are doing to their fellows and baldwin says it is not enough and they claim innocence. innocence was the crime, they are stepping into maturity.

>> how thick white supremacy is in the souls of black. the lie has been something they have consented to a few believe less intelligent, running around scared, intimidated, laughing when it is not funny or scratching when it don't itch, the only thing that can break the back of here is love. for that third part of the love supreme, takes so long.

that is the stuff that can break the back of fear, something all human beings have to come to terms with. people are fearful, they grow into maturity, a sense of memory and empowers you to break the anxiety that allows you to be the person it ought to be. here we cannot live without, got to break it out. mohammed of free -- mohammed ali was free, part of that end

run, more responsibility on himself because baldwin was chewed up and spit out by the liberal establishment. we love skip, brother hilton, that is to say, by next time, he lost his literary power, bitter and raise sites. state baldwin after that, the genius of baldwin where the only thing to fall back on, close to death which is the thing that really really really mattered. that is what you fall back on.

kids and friends and partners and intellectuals that we get involved with. >> baldwin never stopped telling the truth even when he was fully disheartened. a reading or a passage in the first couple sections, baldwin gave up. for old age, something introduced to young activists or talk at school about subversives in this, having that movement, doing more in order to show the beauty and the destruction.

that sort of thing comes out. it didn't stop seeing the same effect but had a different perspective that comes with age and devastation. >> the scholarship around jimmy is more articulated. it is amazing to see the work james baldwin does with mcbride and others. for late, that bias, a biography by james campbell has been displaced by others working in jimmy's work but i

want onto this, there is a continuity. that he is grappling with ideas of the different material conditions the change how he is thinking about love, identity, history, white supremacy and the like. it is not that he goes bad in the teeth or succumbs to the propaganda of the black power or seeks only a kind of continued relevance after falling out of celebrity but grappling with the conditions under which black folks have to live and conditions under which love has to be expressed. somebody has to grapple with the evidence seen by seen but when writing about child murders and what we are dealing with when black babies are

being killed, how to grapple with this, it needed good editing but is a brilliant text that requires a different kind of reading. trauma is at the heart of how we think about this in the latter phase. there is a line in the witness chapter, trying to figure out, i poured myself a fifth drink because i knew something that just happened and it goes something like this, narrating trauma fragments how we remember, what we need to keep ourselves together, threatening

to rend the soul and if that happens nothing else matters, telling a story of trauma in fits and starts is a way traumatic memory works in the pitch of battle between remembering and forgetting. on behalf of much-needed truths to keep heads above water and tell a story that keeps legs and arms moving and then i go on page 43. >> we want everybody to know page 43 and 44. >> don't have a glass. >> i will take it out too. >> i quote this passage, tara cannot be remembered. one blots it out.

you create a personality or a person of but meet the accumulation, bringing hopes to sleep, the terror that is repudiated in the cruel irony is terror moves us about to redirect the memories and get them to flow away from us, the memories always return flooding everything no matter how high we build, baldwin is trying to tell the story of what happens to offer a language that will allow us to move forward. you cannot understand what is going on without understanding what baldwin is doing. structurally they are echoing

each other in extraordinarily beautiful ways. anything triggering the return, the mind is a strange thing. dealing with, on the verge of madness. >> that is rich. back to my meeting in the beginning of dialogue when you talk about beginning again, what is not lost. the ability to respond, accountability, one community, one society and - - we are able

to answer one another and baldwin gets this, musicians must take responsibility for the notes they play, right or wrong. responsibility for the sound and impact on the audience. will you enable them in such a way that they can be agents of love and hope. baldwin understood have weighed this out so magnificently, black musicians, they say that is somebody who will empower me and they don't have that staff. looking down on every day, so on and so on. the same status, looking for us or we are hungry for more poetry.

we want gwendolyn or the last poet and we go on and on. >> black intellectuals. >> absolutely that is true. >> the gap, in the academy, musicians, still a gap. >> moving with music. >> absolutely, part of my critique -- with baldwin. we appreciate baldwin is unbelievable, very important and so on generated by his

relation to james baldwin. there are very few baldwins but the voice is important. we talk about this with mark and pete and chuck and others, the worst of the update. white liberals devastated because critique of black liberals did not. it is there that he doesn't sustain it to the black bourgeoisie. in the post obama era we live in we've got to have a bulls pretty of the worst of the black bourgeoisie that has too often turn to the working class.

can be reluctant. >> this is why we need to return -- >> the atlanta situation. >> precisely the moment you are looking for. >> the representation of the very class you are talking about, with the consideration of that, a wonderful distinction between weight people and people who happen to be white which i love, get us to pay attention to the ideology of whiteness and the object of that critique, the way power functions and capitalism functions and what

happens when we get access and white supremacy still obtained and because the book -- i remember when i interviewed michael stillwell we got to return to evidence of things i have seen, he just wrote that in. probably but that doesn't mean anything for the judgment of text. the general dismissal of that book needs to be -- not in the price of the ticket or the library of the american collection so it dangles. that is where we look for that critique. what happens is you are so disarmed in the age of obama. and of critical voices telling

the truth about connections to wall street, drones, empire, and so forth, black solidarity means primacy on the lease, the working class, the widows, the fathers, not just highly successful ones, the measure of how black people are doing. >> i want to ask, we are about to move to the part where the questions come and they did critique obama. >> still as strong as can be. >> wildly proud of her. one more question with the framework doctor west has provided before we transition to questions from the audience.

speak to the possibility of a multiracial democracy. >> you want to take that? >> i have a whole lot said but you will breakthrough the lesson. >> we have the freedom -- there's a possibility for a multiracial coalition to speak to the contradictions at this moment. there is the view that some people -- it seems to me. racial capitalism is what it is but it doesn't preclude as i understand the question, the possibility of multiracial

coalition but strikes a blow because the contradictions are in full view. one of the interesting things, the last 40 to 50 years of reaganism to be bankrupt. all the contradictions are in full view. part of what we are seeing in the streets, younger folks who come of age and the age of catastrophe, protesting over a police brutality, solidarity and what the pandemic has generated. the technique of the country has broken. we see these different groups and coalitions in the streets within their lives, they are risking their lives.

my short answer is the racial coalitions. >> we have got to have something in the coalition based on integrity people of color. it is not slavery but indigenous peoples with the democratic experiment. predicated on black folks labor and hatred of black people. there is no doubt, making sure those coalitions are unapologetic with the full view and so forth. they talked about the american style, yankee doodleing, got

the act that was young, very much so. glenn ford and all of that who keep the pressure on. america is an empire and predatory capitalists civilization. within the same experiment freedom fighters and love lawyers, culturally and artistically on the vanguard. >> the opposition, all the coalitions must evaluate this critically and honestly, toting

less. thank you. before we make the transition to audience questions either thoughts you want to share? >> i always thought as i wrote the book, i didn't tell you the story but he said i said i talked to reverend barber, in order to give money to the poor people's campaign but reverend barber said you need to write this book and all of the sudden a few weeks later i get a package in the mail, simply a handle.

there were these moments, the first biography in 1956, all of these amazing coats in their biography and i remember saying i wish i could find the archives, my writing partner was like why don't you call up and given what doctor perry is, sent these telephone numbers, low and behold, yankman is alive. i went to the apartment in new york and meet a niece and the niece -- i got a transcript and it wasn't like 5, 10 pages or

100 pages of transcription of interviews, baldwin description of witness that doesn't end in serious passage i found in that space that jimmy sent me to or the moment i wanted to visit his grave at the end and tell weinstein who is as popular as david baldwin, carol drives me to the graveyards, and walking all around, millennials, i am dating myself, they get high, throw it down and it was loud and came in strong. you know where james baldwin's

grave is, we don't know but he might be -- malcolm is over there, carol says now. so than a return. i find him right behind the young one. waiting for it. that is the conclusion i draw to see what this history will do. >> digging in. the third american founding that keeps on. the third reconstruction. a democratic awakening, the various forms of domination in

the american empire, this is timely and will be timeless until folks are reading it many years after the worms have our bodies. >> talk about the love this man has loved me to death and without his love and example none of this would be possible. he loved me into understanding, to say something in the world, gave me the authority to believe in myself and understanding i had the capacity, to be a freed black man and understand what it means. and give him all the glory.

not all glory, the glory of god, but -- >> you give me so much joy. the great honor of my life, hugging her virtually, mom and dad in mississippi, just such a blessing to see part of the great tradition knowing you are holding up such a way that self-examination goes hand in hand with fortitude and determination to keep on fighting, keep on swinging. >> what a beautiful exchange. thank you for letting me be witness to that. the best version of your self that you shared with me and us.

i feel bad giving a pitch now but all right. before we begin the audience questions i want to remind everyone about "begin again," free shipping and 10% of those sales go to the campaign so please pick up this booklet is guiding people who need to know about baldwin into the future so do that and also register for upcoming events, another with dorothy roberts on the eighth and the free market associating the socialism conference on the fourth of july.

a perfect time so was voices of color do you recommends to the audience whether historical or present? >> what is in mind for you? >> this was published by kristin carrie, black radical against booker t. washington and wpb du bois, working with a philip randolph, hunting them down in boston. black folks turn their backs. life is exemplary.

carry's book allows, in the same tradition. oh yes. i will let that stand. >> you can go to the next one. >> this jumping off point. how do we deal with this, appropriating or manipulating radical discourses. >> now. we have 2 - a bit too abstract but we have to figure out how to be together differently

under contemporary material conditions was how do we resist the way neoliberalism reduces us to being individuals in pursuit of our own self interests with other individuals in pursuit of their own self interests and because we are individuals in pursuit of our own self interests, basic values assigned us will even if the rain any notion of the public good which is why they can't understand why they cannot wear masks, no conception of a robust understanding of stand in relation with others in genuine community. part of what we have to do is figure out how to build relationships with one another that in some ways hold off that model, that way of being in the

world with communities of love that last, folks who will enable you to reach for a different way of being in the world. i'm not trying to sound like maga doctrine but these little pockets that run away -- i am saying how we forge relationships with one another becomes an active political in this moment. >> the joy to having those relationships have to be deep in the pleasure you get in other corners of the world, of the community. joy is different from pleasure. black people are soulful people because we give joy to people, you can't keep soulful just by

pledging. it is joy and pain, not pleasure. the tradition that we come from. the deeper, spiritual, we have to be honest and realize all of us are already codified in one way or another and that has to be the object of our critical reflection. i know i am the great white hope for the liberal establishment. i want to talk about that. i'm not going to be that hope for them. doesn't mean kowtowing to black folk but it is not just a career. i need to say that in a modified culture. can't wait to have a branch, they are missing the point.

something just ain't right. mama tells walter and a raisin in the sun about freedom. and somebody's money. what is jenny saying? the difference - in the chicago, looking older. and he says she understands the difference between that and making it. you got to have cash. don't live by bread alone. you've got to keep the faith. there has to be a faith bigger than your career or the opportunity for your next pr move. eddie got something in society

that he had before. >> integrity and empathy. >> that is the whole altitude. >> particularly unusual. the moment they are not safe with physical intimacy because of the pandemic? how do we build real closeness. the best forms of the kind of developed relationships the community-based ties -- >> a hard question.

i am thinking about paul taylor's wife. brought it through covid-19. she couldn't go home to say goodbye. couldn't send her home right because she was worried about coronavirus and her children. complicated that relationship. >> and those who get -- >> they couldn't do it. couldn't send him home.

there are ways this current pandemic interrupted - a registry gives an edge because grief comes with regret, is dangerous. i wish i could have said to you i am sorry, resolve xyz. once engaged, trying to get to an answer to your question. there are ways of being to gather.

you and i don't have time. every two weeks, mark jefferson, charles peterson, just talking about global and there might be another lick of slowing but the point is trying to figure out how to maintain each other's all, how to be not a crutch but a shoulder. on the opposite end of this,

under these conditions what it will look like on the other side, might be even deeper. >> that is a real possibility when it comes to making time for one another. >> with this resolution. >> that would resolve onset. nothing will get in the way of love on each other. childhood has been born into houston, texas and never forgot about that. with that little girl. nothing would get in the way of

the love for those people and whatever it takes you've got to be flexible and so on. very much so. there are things that haven't - >> 430 years. >> to be in conversations like these, pleased to talk to you and the time you have given to us. i haven't been a child for a long time but was raised by black people who care for our souls and intellect, how we

raise our black children, our radicalized trauma while trying to given of sense for our children not to get burnt. >> a wonderful moment where jimmy rejects a description of the negro problem. don't know what people mean. what we mean, we've got to keep whatever we are saying, trying to keep whatever the world is saying about him from taking root in it. 1000 cuts daily. the interesting thing, we have to be honest. i tried to be honest with myself. my own wounds showed up and how i tried to raise my baby

because you bring the baggage to the moment, love the best way you can, vulnerable and full of fault as it may be, as crazy as he may be, as broken as he seems, that negro loves me to death. it doesn't come out there. they have the armor, something else, to deal with the world but got to keep -- the detritus of the world from taking root in their spirits, that is an ongoing battle.

does that make sense? >> so powerful. so true. >> one of the great moments, the letter to the nephew, don't come, the afraid, don't come - and another one is the same. the negro is not afraid. >> that's right. >> martin luther king said i would rather be dead. my sister and my daughter, two little questions. i say you are so precious and priceless that the world might not understand that but don't be afraid to take a stand, the best of who you are, the best

of your mom and dad and grandparents. hold off the other side, that is what you stand for. don't be afraid. don't sell out, don't you ever cave in, don't you ever give up. he is still himself, not afraid. see what i mean, part of the community, but collegiality that cuts across coast. we have close brothers and sisters who are as vanilla as a stereo typical norwegian. keep the love flowing. it is real.

look what it did to his people, if that is the caravan of love -- >> really quickly. reach back and grab right there. to be loved is hard and forever against the loveless world. your love is too hard and he says remember that, we were term limits, we had not stopped trembling yet but if we had not loved each other, none of us would have survived and you must survive because we love you and for the sake of your children and your children's children. that is what we are talking

about. >> tony takes it off. >> this is not love of blackness and black people. the ones that will cuss you out and worthy of being loved. for deep profound -- crucified by black people. from martin to marcus to baker, but can't love in any way, it is quid pro quo, i help you you help me, you left me i left you.

if that is what he was saying lord have mercy. >> thank you for that answer. joyous answer to this question. a part of an idea. james baldwin hated his father the reasons people hate their parents because of something you point out. he had let go of the hatred because he needed to but also because what we are afraid of,

to feel the pain, real valuable human beings that we give to ourselves. they choose to. thank you for that. one more question. this, what do you think baldwin would have to offer those facing a deeply militarized police department. >> that is an interesting question. i wouldn't dare suggests to

anticipate baldwin's work. to the wreckage. to speak to the moment. what would you say to folks in the streets. i wouldn't tell them not to fight. if you are going to blow his brains out, the hatred would

corrode the soul. at the heart of the project is a moral concern about who we take ourselves to be and who we aspire to be. how do we not allow the people the world to this form and disfigure? as we engage in self creation under these captive positions, what do you say, fight to your last breath? that is what he said but don't do it in the name of love, not in the name of hate. >> is wisdom is speaking, when he went to the heart of

american apartheid, terrorism and trauma called jim crow, that is what he was up against when he got off that plane and that bus and walked into this militarized zone, vicious attacks and what have you. how is it black folks are able to keep their souls intact? he has a moral and spiritual question and richness breath of something cultural, moral and spiritual making them morally superior not because they were born under tremendous blood, sweat and tears in that way. the black version of ethnicity,

with rural mississippi, we have different circumstances. and a lot of other things going on and what his mind, such a great people spiritually and morally under militarized conditions, a very difficult thing though we experience because of the commercialization and white supremacy extricated as it were but as long as we try to denuclearize ourselves in the name of love were white people are not the point of reference they steal your point of

reference. loving white folks and not black folks you are sick and pathological and path analogy in healthcare in different ways. by means of the access to tradition, that is what synagogues ought to be doing you see what i mean. you never get that in such a way and parting with a great tradition. >> let us end there. i will bring up the name of jericho brown who in response to james baldwin said let's begin and end there, that is

the last question. we've just spoken to the notion of radical law to shape this movement. thanks to both for coming to speak to us. thank you all for the haymarket reading and see you at the next one. >> thank you so much. >> what a love warrior you are at the deepest level. we made a covenant. i go down before him with a smile on my face. >> thank you both.

>> tonight on booktv in prime time, david scheiber and john brennan discuss the history of russian interference in us elections and how to prevent it in the future. journalist lisa knapp only with a history of cable news and the rise of the 24 hour news cycle. princeton's julian l is or describes the political ascendancy of former speaker of the house newt gingrich. environmental progress founder michael schonberg are offered his thoughts on what he calls apocalyptic environmentalism. benjamin and dorothy roberts offered a thoughts on how some new technologies reinforce racial discrimination. that starts tonight at 7:00 pm eastern, for more information visit booktv.org or check your program guide.

>> during a virtual event by the manhattan institute douglas murray, associate editor of the spectator talks about the impact of covid-19 on political discourse. here's a portion. >> my only expectation with this virus is it makes people double down on what they already thought. doesn't mean they will get much reach with it but as for instance there have been figures in the eu who always wants to pull sovereignty more that the coronavirus is evidence for why we need to pull sovereignty more, advocating tighter borders, this is a justification so everybody can do this from every angle and the identity of movements and social justice movements are no exception to that.

it is slightly longer following the social justice identity warrior game by saying women suffer more than men disproportionately likely to die of the virus if a double down, for those suffering and the endless debates which ethnic minorities may or may not be suffering for it and presentation of those questions instead of questions about how that might be, with the racism of the society we live in so we can't even get a virus from china without it justifying the view that america is a racial

society and so on. all of that has been going on. my prediction is what will happen is these people double down because that's the only game they know how to play, they don't know how to work without spectacle. and intelligent person or more subtle person, what you never thought about before, all the existing views may not be justified and vindicated by the arrival of this virus. you might have something else. this is the one lens through which we see everything. what i expect is there would be less wider public sympathy for the claims being made because of weeks of the spectator and force a lot of people in the country with a declining living

standard but have seen unemployment come through their families and their own homes but not a lot of people get real grievances, it is fairly unlikely they would want to spend much time listening to people with made-up reasons. >> what the rest of this discussion, booktv.org, search douglas mary with the title of his book the madness of crowds. ..