nominate joe biden as a presidential candidate on monday and president trump will set his party's nomination the next week. watch c-span at 9:00 p.m. eastern. for live coverage of the democratic convention starting on monday. the republican convention starting next monday august 24th grade live streaming and on-demand at cspan.org. partisan with the free c-span radio app. c-span, mark unfiltered view of politics. >> former u.s. attorney. joining us now to discuss the michael flynn perjury case. that case before the full court of appeals in dc circuit yesterday. can you just start by reminding viewers why it was before that full panel yesterday. >> this is very much a process. prejudge panel in the district court, the district of columbia

a court appeal has granted a motion for mandamus. it is an extraordinary remedy that tells the judge, we must do something or not do something. and they directed the judge flynn or dismiss case. but happen yesterday in the full court, all ten judges to decide this case re- heard it. ... ... the reason this case is being heard, it is an unusual posture and that after pleading guilty, michael flynn, the justice department is dismissing the case. and so for that reason, the

judge is required to give permission. there is a court rule that said in the case to be dismissed with leave of court. so he scheduled a hearing to hear more about it before rendering a decision. and then leapfrogged that decision and led to the court of appeals to say he must dismiss. he has the discretion. so that's what that was about yesterday. i think even if the court also may decide the case it really is proper to go the routine iaroute of having the trial judge make the decision. and then appealed the decision if you don't like it. otherwise they're going to run to court preemptively when they sense a judge is going to rule against the very subject give the viewers a sense of what l it was like in the court yesterday or what it sounded like with the hearing streamed online. we carried it here on c-span parenthesis michael flynn's lawyer sidney powell arguing on behalf in her opening statement yesterday.

>> general flynn, as a defendant without a prosecutor in litigation now without any controversy between the actual case.s to the consider probably granting dismissal that's required on this fax is a matter of law, judge sullivan denied two defense motions opposing any at all.in appointed mr. gleason to usurp the job of ther, prosecutor, racist sort of perjury and contempt charges over flynn's head and impermissibly sallied forth the rights he perceived. the judge noted in the united states the job of united states attorney is otherwise occupied. and adding these unconstitutional burdens of processedn, to michael flynn judge silva discarded any influence of on biased this court extolled in the 2019 chapter of that case saga. as a cornerstone of any system of justice worth the label.

>> barbara mcquade there are some legal terms in there. among the things, general flynn is a defendant without a prosecutor. and our legal system how can a case keep going if the justice department no longer wants to prosecute that case? >> ordinarily it is almost the full decision-maker it's his full discretion. they will know their resources, their priority and many other factors. but the case law was services more the key pieces as they're entitled to a presumption of regularity in the absence of evidence to the contrary. this case is very unusual evidence you have a case you have very strong defense pleads guilty when he starts showing some discomfort with the outcome of the judge asks if he still wants to plead guilty, many months later he says yes hell does. and then when the new attorney general comes along, throws

out the work of special prosecutor and says we're going to dismiss the case. i think the rule that requires permission of the court that the judge should not be rubberstamped but should inquire a little deeper into the reasons for the dismissal. they argued the sole purpose of the rule to grantpo harassment for the defendant. this also another purpose of the judge has to serve is to protect from a corrupt process. that seems to be what judge sullivan is attempting to do by the hearing. should he rule against flynn and the government by refusing to dismiss the case, that could be anan issue. but it's a different posture there's no competition left the only thing left is the sentence. that is within the problem of the court. so it's a little different from all of these cases we seen before. >> barbara mclean with us this morning to talk about the michael flynn perjury case. happyth for you to join the

discussion. your questions, your commons, we would love to hear them. the phone lines are open for you to do separate republicans democrats 20248, 8000, independence and audrey's barbara mcquade's folks are calling in you listen to this you heard the judge's questions and the back-and-forth yesterday. are there any tea leaves to be read here on how you think the larger panel of justice, of judges i guess will come down in this case? i think based on the questioning that most of the hardest questions were for michael flynn's lawyers. the one issue they asked the party to specifically focus on in the argument was the idea that michael flynn had no alternative remedy. that's one of the requirements for granting. it should be used only sparingly and rarely. and i didn't hear a satisfactory answer to that. why can't we just send this case to factor judge sullivan, what him make his ruling and

then if either parties are not satisfied that can appeal to pp court. there are a majority of the judges that the court got it wrong. i think that combination of factors sesame very strong at this case will go back to judge sullivan. we will be rejected and allowed sullivan to make the hearing very >> and if peoplewh don't like based on this can beast appealed up to the supreme court? stomach this one can. i think you have to seek copermission to have permission to go to the supreme court. excuses cases that it thanks presents interesting legal questions. court splits among the circuit. i don't know this is that kind of case and so perhaps of

michael flynn is dissatisfied with the results here, he would seek permission to the supreme court to hear that case. that would further delay uranthings. at the endt of the day that could be his ultimate strategy pretty songs you can delay things, perhaps past the t election, he get more make it politically palatable which ultimately may be all he wants anyway. because even at the judge dismisses the case. he does it without prejudice some of the new presidential administration of the statute of limitations has not expired, andat it won't until january 2022. a new administration could. [inaudible] michael flynn traits of the delay may be what is in his best interest her. smacked my mcquade joining us to be assumed for what seems to be a lovely morning outside your window in ann arbor, michigan. plenty of college for your already this morning. diane is in livingston new jersey, democrat, good morning.

>> caller: good morning. i would just like to say it's great they're going to review i the details of this case. there's not a lot of a background left out on how the attorney generalay missed. trade mueller's findings. also how flynn will be -- that he just pleaded guilty twice. only until the ar are got appointed. we never got an answer, why did he lie? if they do something innocent and legal why did they do something about it this needs to be looked at. when you touch sullivan or someone like that they said he sold out his country. he really did. they are looking to profit off of this presidency. if you look around he has surrounded himself with tax and opportunists.

stable all-pro lobbying for russia. snacks think of your point let's let barbara mclean jump in. skiper intensity to. i agree there's a lot of things that are irregular about this. if you read the mueller report you will see her during times have the conversation with the russians, he was a freelancer he's going back-and-forth talking to high members of the truck transition team they're going back-and-forth and they were having these conversations. spoke to russia on the same day president obama. [inaudible] that is an effort to retaliate against russia for interfering with ourru election. and so it raise all kinds of questions. not the least of he was undermining the foreign policy of the united states. so to suggest that lying about that was no big deal, is to me

unfathomable. so it was a serious crime. what was stated in the motion to dismiss is that wasn't material to any investigation because there is no crime to allege. i believe there was free but even if there wasn't there was also mission to protect the country against intelligent threat. it had a duty to ask these questions. the idea that this was all just some witch hunt to get michael flynn did not strike me as a crediblee explanation. >> host: on the line for republican this is frank in bayville, new york. good morning. >> caller: good morning how are you, thank you very much for your question and giving me time on the air. my saying is how compression obama said flynn had eight north koreans were the most dangerous things trumka get

into his part party. does not stink to high heaven. i never try think flynn got railroaded by the fbi and i don't think people are looking into that. if an african-american pleads guilty to murder, and he doesn't want to 25 years because he has no money. it's the same idea here i think this is a railroad job. i think the something going on this country h this hiding from obama. flynn hasn't been able to write a book about obama. but there's a lot off stuff in his background. why is obama so afraid of flynn? >> guest: your and my response i don't know what goes in the minds of any of these individuals. we know for the fax michael flynn is working on behalf of the government off turkey. and he failed to notify the united states about that. he wrote an op-ed that was on behalf of of the country of turkey and he failed to disclose that he was lying to the fbi. but all about illegal conduct

in regard to turkey. i thought maybe present obama new michael flynn was dealing with foreign governments for profit without disclosing it to thenn country. andod figured he was not being good public servant on behalf of the united states. especially someone with a very sensitive security clearance. when you buy your contacts with foreign government, they do something our government doesn't know when he someone who susceptible to blackmail. that is up on the highest ends and some in the intelligent community. people are investigated whether they are susceptible because if they argue have the secrets someone could use that as a leverage. so i think that is a serious concern. michael flynn pleading guilty to a crime he did not commit. was directly contradicts the

recordings of his conversations with the ambassador to russia. the idea that he is not guilty is just wrong. it's objectively proven. >> one of the headlines coming out of yesterday's hearing is the front page of, the washington times. evidence being key to flynn according to the oral arguments of jeffrey waltzing the justice department decision to drop theon flynn case based partially on secret evidence.ou what did you take fromgu that yesterday? t>> i don't know what i heard went quite that far pride there is an interesting little nugget that came out. i did not mention the motion went to judge sullivan. all that was based on the conclusion that there was no investigation therefore did not material. what we heard yesterday was they solicited the general to

say there may be other reasons that an attorney general would want to dismiss a case that could not reveal to the court. didn't go so far to say that happen here. he said it could be a scenario in some j cases. it certainly a possibility on what's going on here. some reasons that he could be referring to. we know john durham, the u.s. attorney in connecticut is investigating the origins of the fbi's investigation into russia election interference. that could be less he would have to confirm and deny the existence of that investigation or what he found in that investigation. there could very well be classified information about the technique by which they orerrded the conversation between michael flynn that could be another thing that they would not be able say in the public record.

there's always the ability for the government to tell the in chambers or file a document. it would not have to publicly disclose that. there is some valid legitimate reason not simply some arbitrary reason to benefit juncture call answered in this segment will continue to the discussion next half hour as well. kathleen is in indianola, mississippi. a democrat. good morning. >> caller: good morning. >> >> caller: anchor for my call. votes by their publican, vice president pence made the votes. the president and the white house signed executive order. roger stone said someone

interceded check me if i'm wrong. thank you. sue went barbara mcquade, the role of faisal lawrence here? >> guest: there has been an investigation into phis awards in the russia investigation brady inspector general about inconsistencies. looks like multiple sloppiness on the part of the fbi is a real drop of obligations the most egregious was the fbi lawyers to alternate e-mail to gives the opposite meaning of what carter hate was an aide, an advisor to the trump campaign, was or was not the asset of the cia. these could be innocent mistakes was done and a sloppy fashion to get it done.

but when the stakes were so high that expect the very best of the fbi. instead they got a very shoddy job brady inspector general went back later and investigated 26 separate applications for it and find problems in all 56 of them. it wasn't necessary will they were getting the rights sloppiness is being done. it should have the ability to collect intelligence against people and the united states with contacts with foreign agents. the government is required to be scrupulously careful. now what does that mean for the clinton investigation? nothing at all. that was with carter page. what that means by robert mueller and his investigation. so it was a small peace of a much larger investigation. as a very serious problem in the investigation that makes

the whole investigation somehow invalid that's not the case is very small peace of it. think of it is a small house with a strong foundation and someone had very small sunroom that was on a shaky foundation. but theoom is bad rest of the house is good. >> host: outside what it means for michael flynn. q talk about the larger implications here. and why we are tracking this case, american joseph on twitter why are we supposed to care about this dead horse? is a really good question, it is not a dead horse and is not one single case because it's problematic of william bart's efforts to e un- do all the work robert mueller did in his investigation on russia interference in the investigation. if this case gets a pass this invites russia and other adversaries to interfere in

our elections they future bread we have seen william barr do a number of things that only dismissing the flynn case but also intervene in the case we saw his deputy getting special treatment to paul manafort in his place of confinement. we sell the justice department dismiss a case against russia entities that were finding the joint 16 election. if all that goes to pass and we say that's not a big deal that would suggest it's open season for election interference. this was imposed disabled to russia don't mess with us moment comes to elections. but then say forget about it. songs you pick the winner everything's going to be okay. regardless of who russia likes , we want americans choosing american presidents.

>> question from jimbo in bakersfield, california. can the president parted michael flynn before the judge sullivan passes that? two yes he could do that at any time. with roger stone it's most likely the president wants to do politically is to wait as long as he has to before expanding that political capital. because it grants a pardon of michael flynn, there'll be those who cry out with the political cronyism. and we reduce wait until the dateas michael flynn asks and then give him a pardon. and that could be many, many months now. it could even be after the election on november 4 with president trump wins or loses. he had the power to pardon all the way through the end of his term on generate 20. stick on the lines will be joined u.s. attorney bret tolman next to discuss the

samehi topic. assist tony out of fort lauderdale. >> good morning how are you doing. i want to take three different tax burden want to correct the record.ar michael flynn was not charged with perjury. please stop saying about his perjury trial. he was not charged withi perjury. i also wanted to address this gas comment that is facing serious charges. and yet he was facing no jail time. the plea-bargain has gone down to no jail time. i would like to now address what was the lie? flynn said hed couldn't remember. at that point if i am looking at the completely destroyed my son put in jail i'm going to ngplead guilty. and then i'm going to. [inaudible] what happened to come or have

this so intent on getting michael flynn we had thoroughly all the protections. just one thing. miranda was guilty, his conviction got overturned and we have warnings as a result. i don't care about michael flynn and turkey. that is immaterial. this needs to stop now. thank you. >> host: barbara mcquade? >> guest: michael flynn was under oath twice admitting that he lied. it wasn't perjury is false statements. he was interviewed by the fbi and told them wise for he said he simply forgot. when he was asked about that he had discussed sanctions is not a life he said to do discussed sanctions with russia know they just discuss pleasantries but is implausible that he would forget the conversation which incurred only about ten days earlier. and, when the record shows that something that would come

up in cabinet with they had numerous conversations about it. they spoke, they talked and consulted with the people mar-a-lago. he came back and spoke again. it was the day of the basanctions. they came back and spoke again for this aey congratulation. as a result of your conversation and appears you were successful. in russia has agreed not to retaliate. the idea that he didn't remember thatme conversation went said all he talks or pleasantries or holidays icgreetings. that's absolutely implausible. he admitted twice under oath he did remember that conversation and he did lie to the fbi prayed so the suggestion he was railroaded is false. and the idea that this is immaterialrt unimportance also false but it's about the united states security. sending a strong message to russia that they should not and cannot enter our elections without extreme consequences. and michael flynn said it's a position of the trump administration not getting power and that's okay.

i think what's not okay is also not okay to lie about it. because that means is that much harder to the fbi to find out what really happened and it took robert mueller 18 months at the bottom of that story.er >> to chris and weston, virginia. democrat, good morning. >> caller: good morning. i came to this country basically for the first time i feel like we don't have a system of law. it's like a third world country. it is in prosecution. the present has surrounded himself with criminals that are together. michael flynn admitted he was an agent for turkey for he lied to the fbi. it's even it's a small i you would be charged -- would be dismissed and probably prosecuted. i feel like the president is

doing whatever he wants. where is the law that restrains him from our attorney general from restraining being politically motivated to prosecute a dismissed cases. we still have a lot in this country? what's going on? i don't understand certain it's like a third worldy country. people can do whatever they wan want. fixed fromm the pentagon there is going to debate the election. he (steve got the point, once against father mcquade the final point of tracy mack i think it's very damaging when the president does not act within the bounds of the law currently are the country down by the rule of law. i think the attorney general is facilitating this. it's important we not only follow the law but we have the parents of following the law. when president trump tweets about his enemies and his allies and then to the attorney general acting in

concert with those wishes, it does suggest that the present is punishing people for politics and helping his friends like roger stone andon michael flynn for political reasons. and that undermines the trust the public has in a criminal justice system makes it harder forev fbi agents to be believed on the witness stand when they went to interview people in neighborhoods with crime. as a result of that people will be less likely to cooperate with law enforcement in our country will be less safeul. >> host: will have to end it there. barbara mcquade is at the university of michigan law school former u.s. attorney. and we do appreciate your time this morning. it's teaching thanks very much. >> the contenders, about the men who ran for the presidency and loss.

the change political history, all week at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. tonight the 1916 residential canon chief justice of the supreme court, charles hughes. >> weeknights this month we are featuring book tv programs as a preview of what is available every week and on c-span2. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern book tv looks at several programs with best-selling author malcolm gladwell. enjoy book tv on c-span2. >> binge watch book tv this summer, saturday evenings at 8:00 p.m. eastern settle and watch several hours of your favorite authors. saturday we are featuring programs with the late award-winning author toni morrison whose books include song of sullivan, and beloved. watch next saturday august 22

sp feature programs with award-winning biographer robert caro. binge watch book tv, all summer on c-span2. ♪ ♪ >> book tv on c-span2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. coming up saturday at 5:30 p.m. eastern, author elizabeth hinton, robin kelly, taylor, and cornell west talk about the black lives matter movement. on sunday, at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "after words", university of california berkeley law professor and former deputy assistant journey general the george w. bush administration. john you with his book defender and chief looks at presidential powers in the u.s. constitution. he is interviewed by mark roselle, author george mason university founding dean of the school of policy and government. watch book tv this weekend on c-span2.

>> sunday night on q and a, journalist and author on her book the woman valor about the ratification of the 19th amendment which granted women the right to vote. >> it's very small and it comes with the senate with only two vote margin. there are senators who are sitting on half of it actually in 1918 and it sticks until june of 1919 before it passes both houses. and the senate they were sending it out for ratification in the states was called an off year when most state legislatures were not going to be in session. and that was sort of person of a drum to make it more difficult. they had to convince 30 governors to call their