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>> good evening everybody and welcome, i direct event here, we are so happy to have everyone here, before we launch into a session of strange rights, unlike tissue history, this is a 1927 by benjamin over fourth avenue, stretching from union square, from an original or the eight stores until after 93 years the sole survivor and now run by third-generation owner, we want to thank all of you for your support without her whole community of authors, booklovers and friends we would not be here today. tonight we are excited to have with this tar isabella burton celebrating the release of her new book, strange rights in the religions for a world, she's a tribute editor at the american

interest. the former staff reporter at fox.com. she's written religion and secular religion for national geographic, the washington post, the new york times and more in the doctrine and theology in oxford, she's the author of the novel social creature. joining her to discuss her new book is ross, a columnist for the new york times op-ed page, he is the author to change a church and privilege, and co-author, brand-new party, before joining the new york times uses senior editor for the atlantic in the critic for the national review, he lives in new haven with his wife and three children, without further ado join me in welcoming tar and ross. >> thank you so much, thank you

to all of you for joining us in this exciting virtual experien experience, slightly disembodied way of talking about a book that may be appropriate to the subject matter and tar are, thank you for letting me and being here. >> thank you so much for being here. >> just another thursday night in america. i just want to make two comments before we start, the first is in our era of covid i have done enough zoom events to know that sometimes people are more hesitant to ask questions when they are typing in questions than they would be at a real event where you can stand up and tell the author why she's wrong about everything in the world. >> otherwise will have to listen

to the questions for the entire hour and will get 50 or 20 minutes of your questions and at the end, the second one which i'll reiterate is that this is a challenging time for everybody and authors are among the least challenge in many ways but putting out a book at a moment like this is a difficult thing, i had a book, and i was lucky enough to squeeze in a couple weeks of promotions before the books closed and i just want to encourage you, if you are listening and enjoying this, don't just buy the book from the strand obviously, encourage your friends to buy the book and making the best selling that it deserves to be. without further ado, let's start with a big dumb question, this is a book about new religions for a godless world. these are -- if not or if so

what religions are filling a void. >> spoiler of work under alert, we don't live in a godless world, that's argument that i make, i want to draw a distinction of when we talk about of what we want to do and world without religion, what are we really talking about in a couple of background statistics, about 22224% of americans are religiously unaffiliated and often referred to as a religious and no mes nuns. about 36% of people born in america after 1985 identify as religious nuns, huge increase but of the nuns unaffiliated, 72% say they believe in some sort of higher power and 20% say they believe in the god of the

bible, were not necessarily talking about people about 6% but we are talking about people, for whatever reason are alienated by institutional religion, organized religion who feel has nothing to offer them, who may as in a case believe in the traditional judeo christian god and still have some form but are unwilling to identify, participate and as a religion of itself, were talking about the spiritual but not religious but were talking about a broader category and i call it the religious, not just a spiritual but not religious, it's a most visible but also people who do the internet a identify with a

particular religious tradition but whose personal practices believe our work suspected. in a statistic i like to bring up to give how widespread, about 30% of self identified christians say they believe in realitreincarnation. it is not something one would associate with christian orthodoxy so we are living in an age that i would argue were religious life, the components of a religious life meaning purpose, community, ritual and were relating in a different way and were mixing and matching and unbundling with the term, there is a sense in which we are the endpoint of this and were all making our own religion, these can include not just elements of the traditional religion but things like wellness culture,

fandom, political activism, the vast array of witchcraft and wicca are the among the fastest growing in america and so on and so forth. >> i think one initial response to the description of your thesis that someone will diverse in working history might have how new is all of this, after all there certainly is nothing more american than being entrepreneurial in setting up a church of one that every kid in high school english back when i went to high school was assigned and you get a certain kind of individualized religion in the larger history of 19th century american spirituality is what you and the book call into into law religion. can you talk a little bit about

what is the same and what is different, what do we have in common with 19th century america and what is changed in the last 30 or 40 years. >> what i call in to is the religious practices in the leaps that focus and words, the gut, the individual, the feelings versus institutionalism, a productive term but your church, your external forces. . . . the birth of movements like news fox it was huge in the 1860s onward that was the

proto- secret self-help or basically think about hard enough it will happen. but is a hugely influential and led to a whole publishing industry of self-help books. there's spiritualism and the obsessions with ouija boards, contacting the dead, became really on ambiguous on the east coast for there's also an evangelical revival within the christian tradition where the narrative was often something like church has, or christianity has become people go to the motion to go to church on sunday and it doesn't really matter. you need to look for a personal relationship of god. we need to look for something more intense, more intimate. and course in various counterculture's of religions in the 1960s. said that is absently not new part if anything out argue with the pendulum swing back

and forth for however many hundred years. but i think where something is distinct and new about this great awakening is the internet whisper trying to gather in this way at this time. i like to save the printing press rather was the promised reformation. sort of a creation of model of consuming information is many ways intimate and inward you are reading a book you had the direct connection to the text, to internalize in such a way think were seeing these new religions being the religions of the internet age. what we are not all just in sumer's of content we are not just readers but we are also inclined to culturally think of ourselves as creators. think of ourselves as people

who have or want to have ownership over stories to in some ways harkens back to the traditions as well. but with the added disembodiment of the internet itself. this hunger to create, to be involved, to have ownership in our stories had made us all the more resistant to perhaps orthodox ways are traditionally orthodox ways of experiencing, severing doctrine. think as well our particular capitalist moments bestowed in personal branding made us cognizant of the model the

training of what app in my using to meditate? what purchase of my making and my going to a soul cycle class a sweet clean salad. think the wellness culture is perhaps the biggest, most obvious example of this. but i think the way in which our conspicuous and perhaps less conspicuous consumption is seen to define us in the algorithms where they're getting narrower and narrower contribute to this kind of hyper atomized individualization. >> so i want to press you a little bit on the point you made at the end. i think one of the interesting things about the book is that it sort of at the core you are talking about practices and sort of experiments. [inaudible]

they fit some sort of definition of religious or spiritual right. i think the core of the book is certainly a revival of pagan occultist practices in various forms in american life. but then your definition of new religion spreads outward and encompasses as you were just saying consumer culture personalize aspect of consumer culture. everything sort of holistic and personalized wellness culture and so imprint so convince me as someone who may be a little inclined to skepticism that it makes sense to fit the world of brands and that type of self cultivation under the umbrella of religious practice. >> so i would argue there's an implicit theology that shared by so many, particularly wellness movement i talk about.

the idea that is a moral, spiritual demand to be your best self. to improve in a certain way that i would argue it's kind of the collapse of this distinction between effort you put on a soul cycle, the purity you get from having the right green just the minimal amount of toxins. the weight your skin looks after your ten step beauty routine. the way in which these things are sold and talked about is so loaded with this language of self-care, not just as a kind of nice thing to do. even though historically self-care does come for a much more political place in this sort of a wellness which it's now founded. there's a sense in which if we are not taking care of ourselve ourselves, we are not putting in the effort to be the best in this certain way, which is happens to be

making us prettier or extensively more fit and have a doing complexion or what have you. in so doing and that's the elements of that that are taken for example there elements taken from the prosperity gospel position which is adjacent to that. but i think the idea more broadly your job as a human being on this earth is to be your truest self. to be your best self. also to be your most authentic self. to release yourself from oppression, from ways that society is acted upon you, and figure out who you really are. is i would argue coded as their mortal spiritual good.

there's popular in wellness circles, it's popular in various occult broadly conceived circles i think their versions of that much more political the capitalist version does tend to equate personal fulfillment with the kind of vibration on the right frequency of the right energy and are way that i find incredibly interesting. and quite revealing. >> so? [inaudible] with this group has a think it's because the brand of which we buy things doesn't have the community aspect. >> i do all of my shopping. [inaudible] so. i'm sorry go on.

i think that soul cycle is even better example because it combines metaphysic and the aesthetic and the kind of sense of purpose with a community at a ritual that let's you experience that in the moment. remember i went through a few select cycles i wish i could say they were all for research but they were not. they're fine a few with and with the community or soul, tribe, pack. were occult that's where it says it right there. for energy. effects your neighbors energy like please don't lose do this this is the other thing. that is again moving kind of vague nebulas spiritualize language to talk about her to blend to what could be fitness class to burn some calories

into something with an aura of spiritual attainment. the what you doing is not just good for you it's good for the universe and you're in it. >> one thing that has struck me that i think fits with your argument about the difference between the early 21st century and its gurus, in the 1h century and its gurus is just an absence of institutionalization, right? that the united states has a lot of the same kinds of spiritual entrepreneurs and would be gurus that we had in the victoria air the early 19th century. they don't seem as likely to found things that we call churches purdue just said marianne williamson the presidential campaign. and marianne williamson she is a pre-internet figure original sheet rises to prominence in the 1980s.

but she is a parenting updated news thought kind of figure. if you look in the 19th century there be a church founded by marianne williamson. would be huge but it would have 200,000 people the resort of chapels around the country. that doesn't seem to happen to anything special over the last couple of generations. have a little stuff in the 70s and 80s but especially lately. and how much of that is the internet? how much is that is an ambient skepticism of institutions? why isn't one of paltrow i guess connie west has sunday services wise and third sunday service. [inaudible] >> i'm not sure it would not be successful at least initially. i think the label of church or

making something a church would be met with a degree of suspicion. i think as well the sort of fact that there is such a willingness to admit and try mix and match that we will let it, the broader we hear. >> me personally. so much of contemporary is about that kind of precise individualization breeds of that in the end we can't necessarily get away from the end point being that we are all the end of our church. we trust not only in our religious institutions but in arsenic once color political ones journalistic and media institutions as well unfortunately. i think that there is that

suspicion does just lend itself to such a focus on self. i want to be careful here pretty think there is an easy narrative that we could go to that says kids these days with their selfies, they are so narcissistic preach around religion. i think that the tempting way that one could go about reading the situation. but it actually think that isn't necessarily a story of narcissism but institutional failure. i think it's perfectly reasonable in effect completely understandable that if you're institutions have failed you pretty few don't think you can trust the media, the scientific establishment the political system, the academic system, so on and so forth. it makes perfect sense to turn inward to rely on yourself, to rely on your gut instinct. and desires and affinities and feelings as authoritative.

at least you know that you might be lying to yourself in a broader theological way but you are aware of yourself and other people. >> so i guess to push on that point a tiny bit, is it sustainable? right? this is a book about our whole culture. but it is obviously focused on its a people younger than me. i just turned 40. so millennial's in generations. these are people who are sort of conducting experiments in religion at a time they are conducting experiments in relationships and professional experiments and so on. and i think you can tell a plausible story where these are the children of baby boomers who had their own rebellion and often sort of hung onto an institutional affiliation. obviously talk a little bit about this. [inaudible] >> generational turnover where

they took one step out the door of their institutions but kept 1 foot in the door. and then their kid is taken the other step. but their kids haven't for the most part gone through that 50 to 60 years of life that awaits after your 20s, right? in which the dogma or doctrine of religion the sort of solidarity of a religious institution or community that's not clear that soul cycle provides the role that our bar mitzvah or first communion play plays. and so on to this is the prophecy line. so was it look like in 25 years for the people conducting these experiments now? >> guest: i think the more inward looking of soul cycle it's not just self focus but

present. those are the things i think are on the table. i think we'll see a hunger for collectivity, solidarity, the kind of pure kind of self interested version of these new religion. the well cultures of the world cannot offer. i think what we will see particular social justice as a movement. part of what it does offer is an ideology of community and ideology of solidarity. there is a real hunger for. i'm interested to, more broadly and i talk about this in a chapter on pollyanna re- in kind of the free love is a continuation of ideas of human perfectionism in the 19th century. but ways in which, the term has long been using the clear

community shows and family. people who are marginalized or experienced marginalization from traditional institutions. people who are alienated who is family of origin might not be in touch with in the same way, might be able to find one another pretty think there is a hopeful idea as a result or people find like-minded people were they confined communities, there are options for solidarity for coming together for the creation of ritual in the way that may not look like organized religion that traditionally practice but offers that sense of community. i always room of there's a woman i interviewed before starting this book.

who lost her husband unexpectedly quite young. wanted with his friends to celebrate and commemorate his wife that was specific to him. so the friends got together and they played music from his favorite videogame. there is sort of service that was very much design, not around religious minds but who this person was, what his life was like. he'd wanted to play a video game they played together pretty was it able to do that. with the people she met online through this game played this game sorted in his memory. she was reported import entrance usually important to her. i'm gotten example of how these communal bonds and our desire for these communal bonds can survive this sort of reshaping.

even as i think haps the purely selfish part the inwardness of a certain kind of wellness culture shall we say. i think as an example. >> then let's roll down on the question of belief, right? were community. but you know, the core of what we think of as religion has always been belief. there's a lot of sociological debate about how important or actual creedal statements and don't people really take their religious identity from community rather than creeds. i think there is truth to that. i think it's also true the major world religions are structured on the metaphysical claims about the universe. one question, we've had these conversations before and i always ask this question. i'll ask it again because i think it radiates through a lot of the more supernaturally

oriented experiments that you are writing about which is how much do people really believe in what they're doing? on specifically when you are talking about the neopaganism, the occult, people who are reaching back or reinventing pre-christian or non-christian traditions invoking god, they are invoking for their doing witchcraft. some of it seems like play. some of it seems like experiment. some seems to have real belief. how do you see the question of belief playing out there? >> i think as you say belief is very difficult to quantify. it's very difficult to disentangle from these other practices. i think as you say in his argue in the book, many definitions of religious scholars and the certainly definitions i would say it doesn't matter doll to spout the communities. are the medical and physical

truth claims yes or no? i think the truth is something a little more complicated. which is if you affirm something to be true and you act as if it were true or you act in accordance with the values that you create and espouse you kind of reaffirm the truth of that within a community such that there is a social reality that is something a little more complex. i would argue inward that model were everybody's doing something and no one believes that they're all pretending to get along. which is i think the strong man version of what community model would look like. practice the acts of faith a faithful come. i think that ritual and community can indeed be a precursor to faith or spiritual awareness. rather than simply being kind of an either or.

or saying belief has to perceive virtual community. >> so, i mean, to sort of take that, there is also then the ways these things sort of feedback into political life, right? i think one of the more interesting aspects of the sort of neopagan scene that's happening in american culture it has this left wing and white turned right-wing manifestations. their chapters in the book that sort of follow-up what we might call pagan threads to very different political and cultural destinations for joint talk a little bit about that? >> perhaps most prominent example of neopaganism is again the terms are a bit fluid here there is the religion of wickedness itself, people self identifies winking

but may not covid et cetera. it is the rough umbrella of progressives -- progressive which culture which i think is huge significant phenomenon. already in 2014 identified about a million self identified which is in the country and said at the time i was the fastest growing tradition. that was before 2016. which is where i argue where it all changed. so i think in the wake of donald trump selection, the wake of the women's march in particular any sort of feminist movement around that. there is a real interest on the part of virtually interested progressives, young progressives young women also clear people who found within the imagery of witchcraft the conscious transgression of the nasty woma woman.

the difficult woman. the woman who is sexually found these images they were posted to the way of evangelical trump alliance. he would have taxing trump mass symbolic spiritually real outpourings of anger, of grief. i say spiritually real i would be fair to say that is a language people were able to used to process their anger. but also their hope for a different world rather than a being like convenience. but then if you say sort of going completely across the political spectrum, there's also the rise of what i call a certain kind of reactionary

desire. and you find this and fans of jordan peterson will on the one hand the men's right group or generally this neo watered down of let's return to the good old days when sort of the hybrid of ancient greece as seen through hercules legendary journeys in the 1950s have seen through pleasantville. the men were men and women were women we all had a place and this kind of obsession with physical strength, with the primordial truth of the blood. there sort of implicit blood and soil here that i will let hang in the air here. i think this kind of reactionary which is itself

response, codes itself as a response to the defecated modern world and the corrupt modern world. in a civilization which feminism and pc culture have destroyed is a kind of desire to reclaim and imagine primal past. are this a strong interest that what nature says goes. i would find it a kind of nature worship. that's a very different form of paganism that takes very different things from our pagan past shall we say. >> so just enlisting to describe it in the figures you reference. it seems to be impart you can see that as a and gender polarization, right in religion. what there are mail which is, mail pagans on the left.

and i guess all wife neopagan women. but there does seem to be a sense in which the sort of larger polarization of the sexism in our culture which manifests in politics and other areas seems to play out a little bit in this religious landscape. i knew could come closer to the center and say well it's oprah winfrey jule o scene are the yang and yang of the american religious center. and the gang and yang of the religious extremes are the which is hex and kavanaugh. in supporting donald trump or something. but in certain ways reflect the kind of religious failure in the sense that you would expect successful community to sort of socialize men and women together in certain ways. which is maybe not happening? would he think about that?

>> i think it's a much broader failure than religion. i look at the wide range and i don't think they are exactly comparable. i still have a lot more on the nation that i do for the which is. that said, i think that what we are seeing what i find so fascinating is so many of the subjects as certain newspapers, for example feminist the horrible age or. [inaudible] white supremacist patriarchal field not way. they're often both charges that against institutions more

broadly. i think that whatever they have to say the civic have failed us more broadly. thinking more broadly there is a sense in which the center but petitions make up our lives have lost our trust. however we may understand or give voice to those failings. i would argue a, something interesting to me in how widespread the distrust is institutional part of it. >> host: i like to thank everyone is followed my instructions and had some questions. so if 15 or 20 minutes now. going to take some questions out of the queue. may be adapt them slightly is in the moderator's

prerogative. we will start with a question, he cites a catholic philosopher charles taylor the canadian author of a secular age, the largest book you can possibly by and may be possibly read. and he says taylor suggests some version of what you are describing is inevitable the of the history of the last 500 years right. and religion has been decoupled from the state and north atlantic societies but humans are still on a quest to find fullness and meeting which can only be understood in religious terms. so taylor calls this a kind of nova effect. an explosion of religious options. and he defends his puller religion against charges that it's too individualistic or too narcissistic and so on. and so, i think that dovetails, that obviously doesn't dovetail with some of what you have been saying for

it i want to take it though and link it to it we briefly mention the social justice movements. and black lives matter sort of protest politics that are sort of dominating discussion right now. one thing that struck me about those protests is it seems like there is the nova effect in sort of the desire for individualism. then there is still a for religious unity, right question rick kind striking to see the corporate bs. but the sense that we want to live in a society where every institution, high and low, corporate and governmental is on board with this cause. that seems almost to push against the nova effect and it's all going to be individualism. that there is some desire to have a unified church of social justice. you see that? >> absolutely. think of anything i think

speaking somewhat productively as we having the conversation but the social justice that works so well and it is so powerful it is so active is in part because on the one hand and so far current version is version of our times. it's in degree of inwardness. it also offers that vision of solidarity of unity. and as a common good. a common good that can be shared of a better world. i think there is something vita vital. there is a hunger for something vital that i see more broadly. which is that our tuitions should just work in this sort of functional way. they should be for something, for something good. i think it is often the case

with social justice culture as a religion there's a version of that i read a lot basically using that as an thing holt rosales persona and so forth. i think a better way is yes it works because it is a religion. it works because it can harness a real sense of meaning, purpose of community and ritual that points beyond itself. gives an eschatology that sort of other iterations of more purely or both institutionalist that's hard to say. and focused on religious phenomena don't. i do want to draw a distinction here between social justice movement as a kind of organic phenomenon and the corporatization of it as indeed pre-much everything that one could think of debt

assumed by corporations to sell products. and so i do -- want to draw the distinction between a movement in and of itself and the way in which it kind of gets it sent through the shredder of brands that are going to say the right thing at the right time and push the right instagram light candle genders pepsi black lives matter pepsi added 2017. and that's its own thing. >> but isn't that sort of how a religion wins? i mean like if you go back to the fourth century roman world , you have the zealots of christianity. and then you had the roman aristocrats who didn't really care one way or another about the doctrine of the trinity. but decided.

[inaudible] i'm going endow a church over here. i'm going to act the christian part. seems to me that kind of corporate virtual signaling is itself inseparable from the ascent and triumphs of a new world being. >> guest: i think that's definitely fair. there is one topic and way through victory is through this corporatization. i can't help but wonder though, whether another path might actually be through politics? i was rather excited about the bernie sanders campaign. so something i may have wondered about was slightly more hope a few months ago than now. but i do wonder where these religious nuns and these progressive nuns do vote. they are actually, i think in

20 states they are the single biggest religious demographic. if you think about the jungles who are the ones that turned out decently for trump come everybody knows that. there were 13, 14% of the population? they vote in an outside way there turn out as i was great. they are 30% of the population is declining. were talking about nuns. coursers a lot of crossover. retirement 23% of americans for your time 6% of young americans. and so i do wonder if one way in which this might kind of make us a culture is in the ballot box. we might at some point the apolitical experiment that takes these values and puts them in to practice and sees how they work. i would certainly be curious.

>> this is actually one of our questions asking how do you these new religions will sort? factor two parties. suggest the sort of darker scenario, right, which is to the extent one of our political coalitions become sort of defined by and dominated by some version of these new religions. and our other political coalition is still defined and dominated by whatever remains in christianity. that creates a much bigger political divide that america has had in the past. even our civil war was an inter- christian theological conflict with people having huge arguments but they were still arguing about the interpretation of the same bible, right? the vision you just set up does seem to set up a version of the culture war certainly more profound and divisive

than the ones we have had for the last 30 or 40 years as christianity slowly retreated. >> one can certainly say a danger. think another way to look at it as we are kind of a vacuum moment. we went to reiterate this is not just eight purely new phenomenon as tail end of a multi generational phenomenon. talk about the boomers with a 1 foot out the door in terms of disillusionment in this case religious but more broadly way of doing things. i think just as a sidebar here, i think most of -- most people who leave this tradition actually do so, one of the biggest predictors and indicators how much religion is spoken of in the home. savior tail end of nuns who are leaving the faith are doing so in part, kinda having

witnessed a certain apathy in their own parents. so yes i think there is sort of a bleakness or potential bleakness to this coming vacuum her but i don't feel like it's been a long time coming. >> live a question from maxine that drills down what you're just talking about. which is that you find there was anything -- any real specific patterns and their religious backgrounds of people who were involved in these new movements beyond just their religion in the home tend to be more attenuated. whether lapsed evangelicals, lapsed catholics, mainline versus you know go on. >> the mainlines in terms of churches have empty than evangelical particular white evangelical churches. just as a side note historically black churches

and white evangelical churches are pulling data differently which is why making that distinction. but at the same time, at this point the nuns come from everywhere at this point. there are actually. they are relatively reflective of the united states as a whole. a little whiter but not by much. only one actually very big predictor. and that is 46% of queer people. rather than 24% of the national average are religious affiliate affiliates. that is one of the only really big notable expected have been marginalized institutions. that's kind of the big one. >> is there any gender commissary big gender breakdown breakdowns?

there is slightly more women are unaffiliated overall, slightly more men are likely to say they are full on atheist or agnostic. it's pretty slight. >> and they were for dorms? >> [laughter] art with got about six minutes left. let me try to squeeze in a couple more questions read one question someone brings up when i mentions were the religious coming-of-age ceremonies the idea that colleges in college admissions and graduations fill that role. one thing we haven't talked about is the harry potter phenomenon. so maybe this would be a chance to talk about the peculiar role that the school playing in a certain kind of quasireligious. anyway talk for three minutes about harry potter. >> alright go. i think it is true that is the

remnant, there are civil institutions that we still have a cultural about harry potter specifically especially with jk rowling has elevated quite a big fan base. it's a facet harry potter is been a canary in the coal mines for so much of these cultural shifts, since the publication between 19 a7 when the first and was published in 2007 when the forethought was published but at home internet in america increase of 19 million to 100 million's of 500 million increase. that dovetailed version and the way in which fan culture developed around it, dovetailed so completely with the rise of very particular internet cultur culture. whether it's fanfiction, creation, memes, but the idea that you can have ownership of your text for you can have ownership of the things that you love that was not a model or someone came down from on high the powers that be, the

show runners want to be called and have the final word of what a property was barely certainly see that in the media now parade the fan service that are designed for the fans that are being much bigger back and forth between consumer information creators of information. i think it reaches the fascinating the idea that jk rowling and stormer creation because is not seen as hers. seen as everyone's. often the response to rally has not been let's ever read harry potter again it's well hogwarts is bigger than she is great we can still write fiction in this community we can still love these characters they belong to us. i think that tendency kind of written large can tell us so much about the wider questions of institutionalism inwardness

and individualization we are seeing in the book. >> the last question. as to a post covered world question right? part one of one person says do you think it a post covered world or people are looking to find meaning and purpose and community that these sort of newer stranger face will be fast-track? and do you think there is a sense in which they can be more likely to form communities or cults which is a word we haven't used as much. in the way. one way to put this earlier seeing it as a 1968 moment in politics right now. will the 1970s were high tide of weird communal experiments, strange religious cults. when you first see after covid? and after donald trump? >> i think the combination of

our increased appear itemizatio itemization. experiences simultaneously both is itself gathering digitally. and perhaps it not only are able to not. much more interested in forming intentional communities. especially if we get to the point of thinking about our pods, who are our bubbles. i wonder if that tendency will lend itself out and maybe even

eight intentional community. [inaudible] i'm >> this has been fantastic, but it's really not the same as doing a panel in the flesh righ right? and that goes double and triple for a lot of religious practice practices. could there be an anti- internet religion backlash that sort of manifests itself in a desire for an flesh communities or communes with large vegetable gardens and weird polyamorous living arrangements? specs of the things are very tempting. i would personally like a vest board right now. but i think that is certainly possible. however i think if these communities do come about in the flesh ultimately inveigh and jump me welby we use the internet to get their pride will find each other online 40% of americans find their partner online doesn't mean

they never beaten real life which they may not under covid. so since the digital space and the promise will be a launching pad for people to seek out and find communities that may then manifest themselves. >> alright it is 8:00 p.m. i want to apologize for everyone who asked questions weeding get to. you were terrific and there been many even more wonderful questions for they're down the queue. thank you all for joining us. again, to repeat what i said at the outset. i hope you found this illuminating experience that you will buy tara as a book. by other books support strands support local bookstore. and as my final word since i didn't say anything in my capacity as a practitioner for the ancient institutional of the roman catholics, while you are dabbling in the strange

new rights that tara describes, stay safe out there. so with that, think you also much for joining us. >> guest: thank you. >> week nights this month were featuring book tv programs is a preview what's available every weekend on cspan2. thursday, starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern, former defense secretary robert gates and james mattis take a look at the u.s. power around the world since the end of world war ii. in christian brose former staff director of the senate armed services committee talks about the future of high-tech warfare. and later former defense secretary william perry and plowshares of policy talk about the nuclear arms race with the end of world war ii and the threat of nuclear war today. enjoy book tv on cspan2.

>> the president come available in paperback, hardcover and e-book from public affairs. presents biographies of every president. inspired by conversations with noted historians about the leadership skills that make for a successful presidency. this presidential election year, as americans decide who should lead our country, this collection offers perspective into the lives and events that forged each president's leadership style. to learn more about all our presidents in the books featured historians visit cspan2.org/the president. available in paperback, hardcover and e-book at wherever books are sold. scenic >> we thank you all for tuning in. but we can describes interesting times are grateful for the opportunity to invite virtual audience together in dialogue even when we are not exactly together in space. i liked especially