he also started translating stuff such as the book of jihad. the justification for physical violence jihad at that era. it is not considered a very important tax. it is important for jihadists jihadist but not something that has a much wider intellectual or academic value. yet he chooses at that time to translate this.

speak to the people that attended the event. it would gone and attended the event. that is the kind of people who were already attracted to him back then. so the decision to translate was very different. a lot of those at the time in the uk were worried about the meetings. that is the first big find but taking another step not just make sense and giving them a reference but they are assessable in english. he translates that in the uk

and really it's all audio by the way. the vast majority of the work was a/v. and soon after that he goes to yemen. we can go on about it. if you have any questions about that. >> i wonder when he left the uk my recollection as he have money problems. he have a profession has been paid for in the uk. his father was a very prominent member of society.

sort of a prominent family. he was getting back to that. but do you have any sense that he was headed to yemen and part because of the branch that was there? there was certainly a friend of his in the uk. he said those are some things in yemen. i couldn't really get more than that. moved closely then. i think it was a couple of years before they actually ended up joining them. other major things happen. 2005 in yemen key translates the jihad. that was never -- that was the next step from the book of jihad.

very important one. and one which they take it on himself to translate. it is an attempt to say you have to read and understand what is so important. and how it will never end until the day of judgment. it wasn't just translating it it was re- packaging it. references were for westerners not for the middle eastern audience. again, one of the things were talking about early on was his adoption of technology throughout. now it seems like a weird thing to say.

the audio translation recorded and then disseminated. i don't know how the original one came out. i think it was just an audio follow-up. we do to leave some time for questions here. fast forwarding a bit. they connected with al qaeda and the peninsula. and finds his spiritual home is the provenance of the's that his family is originally from. moves out to the boondocks to the family homes. and connects with al qaeda. from denouncing 911 from the

pulpit so to speak in the u.s. to becoming more and more openly extremist the u.s. invades afghanistan after september 11. and there is running of evidence for what is important as they've talked about it. he ends up literally a spokesman for al qaeda. a leader of a sort. in the al qaeda branch becomes extremely influential and you say in the book by your account you found that his inspiration or influence could be found in at least 66 of 212 people accused of jihadist crimes in the united states.

that is really remarkable to what you attribute. here is the guy often in the wilds of the yemen. in terms of luring them into jihadist violence. >> one of the things i put in the book. i present it along with the western jihadist creatures. he wasn't the first but he's not the last. he is most important. we have others in the uk. there are a lot of others. the one that al-awlaki did that the others didn't. aims to be a mainstream

preacher. an important organization. unlike other jihadists speakers. those guys only spoke about jihad. that's all they did. al-awlaki did a huge of a work that he did not talk about at all. when he started talking about. as part of the wider islamic project. the other guy could be dismissed. that wasn't the same in him. he was talking about a lot of other things. and then he brings it into the conversation. just a natural part.

no others have a wider the wider mainstream credibility. based on social movement. how and why people get involved in clinic -- collective action. anytime of collective action that can all the way up. if you look at how he presented ideas and created meaning he did so using methods that are very tried and tested. that's what they wanted to do to move beyond al qaeda as an organization to say there is a wider movement out here. it may collapse.

we were not in the social movement at that time. it explains how they follow a very similar method. the kind of refer to the social movement. he was very effective. and doing that. it is a very key step. the big part of that or any social media is a collective identity. and to relegate individual identity is something. it was presented as a waste of time. and also the fastest fastest movements do this a lot. an introduction i noticed the

true believer and when she says is for people for whom the self has given up on. >> he is storytelling particularly. once you do that. once you get people to have that shared collective identity it's one of the first steps to getting them to act on behalf of that collective nest. i'm sorry we have to speed along. you do a terrific job of enlightening three particular cases muslims in the west to in america and one in nigeria. who were deeply influenced by this guy and lured into jihadist them. by him. maybe we will do them in order

of the depth that they went to in the movement. i think he stands for a lot of people. once it goes over a moves on to trying to get a sense of how he impacted people when and why. there is three chapters. it's a very well-known case. i think he chose three case studies on the basis of each of them represented. he represented the classic example of someone who started online took on the role of becoming an online propaganda and someone who is basically taking it on as a job. for whom then that started feeling like it wasn't enough. maybe they wanted to upgrade to the real world and become an activist. he was influenced heavily.

he spent much of the rest of his life in jail in the u.s. the key thing about it. one of the first times you see him is on his blog. he is one of the commenters on the blog. from that young curious he's actually a really great example of strategic what they're trying to do. he was strategic. let's lower it for what it means to be involved in this movement. the way you get involved is that you have to get out travel to some help somewhere. and become a professional. somewhere in east africa.

you can only be legit if that was that you are doing. what he came unsaid was actually no. if you get online [inaudible conversations] you're also part of the movement. you allow a lot more people in. when you create a lot more potential for people to start at that low run. and slowly work their way up. another one of your chapters or case studies as the army psychiatrist who opened fire at fort hood. in 2009. that was the guy who didn't have to go to the afghan order. he was able to carry it out at home. >> the book kind of identifies moments in these people's lives where they were experiencing some kind of vulnerability or questioning of their own identity.

was his conversion to islam. it was the moment that someone could take advantage of that. hassan interestingly it was a death of his mother that first sparked it. he presided over his mother's funeral. that was the first time have come across something like that. all of these. i was lucky enough to be involved. a colleague of mine who published an excellent study based on interviews was very kind and takes a part in it. she shares with me some unpublished interviews in the book. when you ask him what are the words that he's most important. this is a guy who conducted a mass shooting. it's the early stuff. they left him because of all of the other islam stuff he was doing.

if you ask him what his favorite stuff was. he also explains how he helped him understand that the war in islam was not just physical violence. it was an ideological effort happening in the west. it allowed people to identify on their doorstep in their backyard giving that immediate sense of threat. and when you offer that kind of immediate sea. much better chance of getting people involved. even though he never specifically told him to conduct the attack. a lot of it was involved planning wise. it was entirely shaped by his work. famously, right after that shooting he came to most

america's attention when americans attention when he wrote on his blog. and suddenly there was this guy. this guy was a hero. i think it was the first time many of us including me really took an interest on him. before we get to the questions the third case study is the underwear bomber the christmas day bomber in 2009. he actually did not decide they want to go to elsa bob and help them. it is not connected to anyone. influenced by things he is seen online. in directly. and then you have the pro

terrace. the guy who does it the old-fashioned way. he goes to the actual terrorist organization. the chapter covers a lot of his time in the uk. the activism in the uk it looked like looked like at the time. that's how it looked when he was at university. i read that statement from. this is the place he was in. in fact i found part of it where all the chapter i think they documented to you guys. released by the ei.

a lot of it really interesting information and that which help me shape it all together. one of the things he says. when he was in london was all of the islamic society members. were all major fans. cage prisoners who are probably still going on today. and the reason why he decided and the others didn't they are very hard to completely understand he was to some extent. a product of what was going on in the uk at the time. and it was his door and his access to the movement. there are a number of ways i described in the book.

there is a lot in the book that explains how and why he was so important. this was a boy who was very will read up on. he could pretty much recite the quran. he was very religious. when we go to questions now. we had 22 questions including a lot of great questions. we had been given permission to go beyond noon for a while. we will get as many of these questions as we can. some are big and brought some are pretty quick. i will start with a quick one. when the uk if ever did he ever come across the other extreme is character who folks me know about. crazy enough. his time in the uk just about predates the figure.

the organization was itself an offshoot of the career. a political was him. i know that book. in relationship with him. i spoke to a former senior member the organization have preceded him. in the end they have very little to disagree with. this is what it is. in the and they end they were very similar figures. he was slightly more narcissistic. was he ever employed men embassy. embassy. when he was preaching there.

>> not that i know of. one of the things to keep in mind is one of the things i explain explained in the book. in the former training. he have gone and trained at the saudi university for years. al-awlaki was not a serious scholar he presented as such. very little of his work contained any kind of in network academic discussion. or that reason he was so much more assessable because he was asking very little of his audience other than to settle -- sit and listen. he spent some time in the saudi arabia but no official qualifications. not an employee as far as i know. so tell us about the nature

and the view of the relationship with the september 11 hijackers with him he had contacted both in san diego and later in virginia. there is some speculation that he was in on the plot? >> you addresses in your book also. were of the same mind. it's the one of those big questions. you read the commission report they're not convinced that he have nothing to do with it. i think you can see there. there's still some big question marks. in the end. it's actually in the san diego one is a bit stranger. the mosque he was in at san diego. it was a mosque in a pretty bad part of town. you have a really know it. you have to head someone to tell you to go there. if you are just visiting the city at the time you would've gone to the main mosque there. this is the things that come up. what we told them to go there. and that only there.

he goes across the country of virginia. and it goes there. the end up at the same mosque again. i don't think al-awlaki have involvement in september 11. have he done he would've admitted later on. he was looking to gain credibility. my one thought perhaps is when they were in the united states. it may have a scoped out the sky he's not jihadist. he has not same things that we disagree with. the type of islam that he was preaching was one that would not have swayed the views of those guys when they went. you would have wanted to send them to a preacher.

he was not the guy that was gonna do that. in fact at the very least --dash in the early islamic times. i have a feeling they have a look. and said he is not do any harm. though again. and i think he was actually involved. he was the main plotter of the september 11 attacks. he was a guy that have gone to college in his country as well. he have studied in north carolina. he have a sense of the scene here. it could be that there was a change of connections where they without revealing in the of the plot of course i think the last person that he would have trusted was a guy like

al-awlaki who was an american first for all they knew he was an fbi informer. i don't think they would trust him with the plot. but they may have sensed a hospitable guy who was born in arabic. it could help them out as he seems to have done. at least in terms of their living arrangements and so on. we have a question here how would you characterize his operational role and physically organize rather than inspiring attacks in then of course i should say that this was the crucial distinction when president obama ended up putting them out on the kill list. then he did that because he base that on evidence that he have become an operational terrorist.

including of course sending the underwear bomber to attack the u.s. what was his operational role. not to say that the person asking the question has a misconception. there is a misconception out there that he was killed by the u.s. government because of what he was saying. i think they make this claim about him. he was killed because he was saying things that we didn't like. in fact over all of the book is a very good critique of the use of special forces. he relies heavily on that work. he was also operational. and then they decide not to address that. the fact is yes, he have a

direct path. in terms of target selection. weapon procurement. he connected him with abraham on a series of things. he was the main man behind that. he met the criteria i say whatever you think that he have. the book also lays out a number of lesser-known plots that they were directly involved with. including a young nigerian who went to join him. then he plodded to go back to nigeria and recruit more members. we also know now that he was directly involved with the walkie brothers. he directed his brothers and gave him money. there is still an idea of what he was killed because of what he was saying.

that's what got people's attention. whatever we think of that policy. through his direct operational. i think this has been made a lot in this point. we now see one of the ways that the movement attacks the west. it's kind of accepted as one of the ways. let's not forget. he was really one of the first people behind that idea. he wasn't all that popular for al qaeda at the time. eventually they embrace the model. i think largely thanks to a lucky -- al-awlaki. today i will give you the story when the chapter opens up. in london a couple years ago. on exposition road. the car jumped the curb and

hit a few people and hits the news immediately. and gives everybody's attention. there is a thought of the terrorist attack. the place feel police feel compelled to announce that it's not been treated as terrorism related. there has been a car jumped the curb in the middle of the city. it's not been treated as terrorism related. that somewhere minds went. this is a story i told you. it's one that you probably heard . that is al-awlaki's job. he did that to some extent. yes these events in the tax that did take place were low-impact casualties but they

kept the movement in our minds. at the forefront of our minds in fact. if you are a terrorist and you're using it as propaganda. the main thing you want to do is kill a lot of people. is not usually the main goal. the loan actor model that al-awlaki developed to the point where now we are doing the propaganda for them. by having to address the fact it reminds us of al qaeda all over again. every time that happens they've have a success. the root of terrorism i always like to remember is to cause to tremble. and with attacks in many cases in the post- 911 years these groups have managed to keep people on and into see them as

major players so here is a quick one. we are past noon now but we are allowed to go on for a while. will gone for another 15 to 20 minutes at least. we've a lot of great questions to tackle here. a quick one. what evidence is there that inspire a magazine. and for those that don't know was extremely influential. what evidence is there. that he was the editor. he was basically an american saudi. who went over to join him. probably doesn't get enough credit. it's probably a book to be written about him.

he was more important to inspire. i cover this in the book. in america. in the 2000's. there is a predecessor magazine to inspire. it was written and you can look it up. and looks exactly the same it's a little bit rough around the edges. it was developed in the united states al-awlaki was actually involved with jihad recollection. he was getting instructed to some. what it should contain. it was the brainchild of people like he was the guy that made it.

i think a lot of the strategic thinking. either way it was very involved with it. he was the patron at least at that time. the honorary said the elect recollection. he wrote a article is saying that we should re- shift our focus. for the near enemy. we should stop attacking america to attacking the secular leaders in the arab world. he says no no no. even then. he was very keen to keep the focus there. they circle around the transformation from the

mainstream acceptable american mom. you don't get a whole lot more mainstream than that. what was the key factor in driving that change do you point to any external event. in his life do you think it was an unveiling of views that he have all along but kept to himself. what drives him to change at least an x eternal appearance so radically. i don't have a definitive answer. part of it was how i derived it from the analysis. one of the first things i've noted.

that is not the vast majority of people most of them don't become jihadists. what it means is that before the war on terror he have a view of the world that was pretty straightforward. the presents us with a great threat. that was already the view. he have a very romantic view. he have this glorified vision. i place them somewhere in the spectrum. the views and methodologies in particular is impacted by that geopolitical shift.

on the basis of invasion or political moment in a way that is needed. when 911 happened. the frame to which they viewed the real world. it allowed him to take steps towards more open support without a huge break from the previous way. if you look at his work in 2010 there's actually not a huge difference. what's really important is the view on how they should react to these threats. relax react through peaceful protest. in his words. i began with activism. and i got to the point where i believe the situation was so dire that activism was not in

and violence had to go. they started with lower form and lower risk activism and they move to higher risk. they thought it wasn't working. it was a big part of the changing of the events. it cannot be ignored. it was certainly threatened by the fbi. they have a dirt on him. they may have threatened him with and said look, if you don't cooperate with us. they asked to become an informant. a lot of people put that moment down. all his options reduced down. yes there is a component of that. a lot of others try to put in imprisonment in yemen.

he became much more hard-core because of imprison. i don't want to discount it. let's not forget. before he went to prison. it was slightly more strident support. again, i think throughout the announcement of the early work. it really suggests that this guy was already playing with some ideas. it was certainly sympathetic. anyone who wants to give you a straightforward answer. i would advise you to be careful. there is a reason they are usually doing that. and they combine they combined in the spirit unique moment. he was where he was at the

time. they have a role to play in all this as well. a couple of questions. why is he so prominent in the propaganda. in a slightly different question can you please comment on the incongruity. with that medium wing. some of the other people have been broadly condemned. this is kind of the post reputation and use. both related and very good questions you have a sophisticated audience here. there is a whole chapter.

it is about the influence. and once i place a lot of influence on. i would give a lot of credit for this. i think some of you had written about it as well. when i have that. in 2006. when they set it up. they were not entirely sure about it. there was all of these discussions. in 2006. the predecessor of isis. and one of the reasons he praise them. he finally has a great example of the returning to practice. they are implementing them. and they're setting up an

islamic state. the other thing he says and that is really important is that he knows this is the first step towards the end of days. where this is happening geographically is a sign that we've taken another major step of the fulfilling the prophecy. happening in this part of the world. that might sound familiar. that was one of the key messages. they talk about this apocalyptic nature. saying things. you can just wait around. if you want to make the right steps you can't wait anymore. it's here. you have to protect it and you have to be involved with the next phase and it was leaving the station now.

it was very attractive partly because of the added immediacy. if you die anytime soon in your ask what did you do and you take the chance. part of the most important moment in history of islam. the history of islam. you're not to go to heaven. before they really braced it. they weren't big on the whole end of day staff. with the final battle between good and evil. a couple of others not many were part of the recruitment value in that message. when it was founded. one of the very first videos that they do is a voice over of al-awlaki and given given this 2006 speech.

and then saying things that were basically exactly the same as what i was saying. very important in that way. one of the only heat is mentioned in ways that people are not. we can't throw the baby out of the bath water. and all the outreach they do is influenced by them. it's a concept that they use. in the united states and the west. the era between right and wrong. it's a clear war taking place. they are sitting on the fence. our job as a terrorist group

is the force that decision on that. to make it possible to no longer make their minds up. they don't care what side you choose. they just need you to choose a side. he was very much saying this stuff back then. the term gray zone which for the kreis zones. and something like 2008. there is no gray area here. there is no gray area for you. you cannot occupy that anymore. it is the exact language same. a component of at the outreach. george w bush saying you are either with us where you are

with the terrorists. muslims were getting the same message from two sides they have to pick sides. we could go on for another two hours but let me ask you a couple of big questions to wrap up here. one would be a bunch of people to ask do you see anyone out there either in the jihadist brown or the activist realm and he heading in the direction. as is it just a huge vacuum that he left. that is a very common question i get. i don't think we can replicate that work. as i said. he is a product of all of these.

you and i can get a guy who was a senior member of one of the most important mosques in the west. go from that to be coming ahead of al qaeda. that move is probably not can happen again. build a huge base of mainstream muslim support and then move. then you take a lot of that base with you. having said all of that they have certainly tried. then i have anywhere don't have anywhere near the charisma or the credibility. he is a mainstream scholar.

they come up and a lot of cases. other things i've written. it is the report i wrote. it covers bro. and probably the closest. he was a jihadist in the late '90s. a supporter of the early al qaeda operations. he got only a narrow scope of support. you can't re-create the circumstances but you will have people like that who well had that ability to take what they know about american culture and use it to create an attractive jihadist narrative. privilege to ask a question myself. it's the last one. it was one that i was often asked and one without a

clear-cut answer i think. in addition to becoming the leading spokesperson voice for al qaeda in english al-awlaki have another historic distinction which was of course to become the first u.s. citizen deliberately hunted down and killed without criminal charges. without a trial executed by the u.s. on september 30, 2011 he caught up with him in yemen was that a good idea or a bad idea. i should just preface it by saying as i was writing about the sky at the time i saw his youtube videos and tributes to him flourish and grow at a

very rapid pace after his death and of course there were many attacks in the west after his death where the attackers specifically it turned out have been strongly influenced by him. was it a good idea to take him off the field. was a bad idea for the status in the murdered and the murder dome. >> al-awlaki famously said that. our influence or our work is written in our blood. and speaking of that. mark is him is what gave him strength. he has some similar belief in that. his second attempt to kill him as well. i fear towards is it a good idea. i was not putting it in those terms.

obviously any assassination can be taken very seriously. not necessarily celebrated. it's a very important decision that is not an easy one to make. i think with his assassination he have in a couple things that they lost. what they last was the fact that he was us magnet. they weren't talking about people that were just looking for the opportunity. talking about people who work looking for al-awlaki. there is a case of the british employees. where they discuss what they're talking about. offering to help him. it is just their engagement with him i'm ready to commit

this attack. he was a magnet for anybody that was interested. it didn't really ever get replaced. it was probably a lot of people who threw in the towel after that. i can only speculate. he lost the person that was a direct influence for people to go from sympathizer too actual jihadists. through his online speech. was he able to constantly offer the spin or narrative on new events. this is a very important resource that they provided. the news is saying this about 2008 financial crisis. was saying this. what is and he was providing

that for the western europe. he was able to weave in the usual narratives. but take advantages of new moments. they lost that too. i think on balance they lost more than they gained. but it is counterfactual. when he was alive he was a magnet for a lot of westerners who were looking for him specifically in order to complete that attack. they lost that. in terms of what they gained. you murdered one of our most important preachers and they were able to say as soon as you call it. this was a not very convincing part they made. that is kind of the key.

as far as justifying it. to an extent. everything he was saying up until he died. it was just every packing of stuff he artie said. in that sense maybe it wasn't a huge loss. but it's very hard to say. you have a guy who was actively involved. if you would've put this on the table and said look. there is a guy if it was connected to other parts right now. he lives in a part of yemen where has no control. we can ask the police to

arrest him. there is no military who is going to go do that. he is living in the lawless part of the world. at that point we had two options we can go and arrest them. or are we leave them. and given how the operation. it was incredibly risky. and actually nearly goes horrifically wrong. the blackhawks went down. they could've gone horribly wrong. there is a lot of huge amount of risk. it ended up killing al-awlaki's young daughter. in a way a precision strike and a bunch of known terrorist operators. it was actually the lowest response.

there's also the legal question. they can tell them is an illegal act. because of international law can be interpreted in many ways. that is a great answer. i think working to get kicked off of zoom here in a minute. i will just say if you still had questions and alex is not hard to find at george washington. you can find my e-mail on my twitter page. this has been a real pleasure hosting alex if you have not already done it, order the book incitement on his western jihad. and thank you again for inviting me. thank you for giving us a terrific talk here. any questions, anything else

please feel free. here's a look at some publishing industry news. the former assistant to president trump. it will be released on september 8. by sky horse publishing. with a print run of 500,000 copies. they had released some specifics about his forthcoming book about the president. it publishes on september 15 well be entitled to rage. it will have details about the quote early national security decisions. as well as personal correspondence. between the president and north korea leader. president trump has dismissed the book as fake. in recognition of the 25th anniversary of the women's prize for fiction. twenty-five books written by women.

will be released for the first time under their real names. the list includes middlemarch written by marianne evans. the e-book version. will be available for free download. also in the news. they report that it will up be up nearly 25 percent for the weekend. they saw another positive week up to 23%. and were led by the latest book. stay free or die. another upcoming book festival has decided to go virtual. it was then rescheduled for the fall. will now take place online starting october 18. but tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. all of the archive programs anytime.

former chicago mayor president obama. recently discussed his new book the nation city which argues that innovation is taking place in cities across the country. here is a portion of the program. >> the center of gravity is moving out of washington to local. part of it is dysfunction all of the weaknesses you see matchup against all of the strengths you see local. intimate, immediate, impactful. we had been here before. what is interesting about this moment is not only are things returning locally but then local governments are now taking up more and more of the real estate that you see.

>> the local governments are leading the charge and climate change. local governments are leading the charge on immigration. to watch the rest of this talk visit the website. use the search box at the top of the page to look at rahm emanuel. .. .. you are watching c-span2, your unfiltered view of government. created by america's cable-television companies as a public service and brought you today by your television provider. >> and this week on "the communicators" our guest is jeff moss, the founder of