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on the bottom of your screen we have been observing and reporting in washington for half a century and decades with the "washington post" covering nine presidents and sharon to pulitzer prize from the coverage of the watergate scandal and in 2003 and the 9/11 terrorist attacks. also making big news to draw many readers his newest book rage and all have been national bestsellers. we are accustomed to bob's books going behind the scenes into the minds of those making critical policy decisions. what is extraordinary is this time donald trump himself spoke to bob 17 times while the book was being written giving a remarkable series of . into the president during

key moments. the conversation is another prize-winning journalist jane meyer chief correspondent for the new yorker magazine where she has been 25 years she is also the author of four books to help deepen our understanding of such important topics such as the money behind the minds of the radical right the war on terror the clarence thomas hearings in the iran-contra affair. jane and bob, take it away. >> hello bob it's good to be with you. i just want to start that there has been so much news to get your thoughts on the court and i wonder if your book on trump if you had got any insights into his relationship with mitch mcconnell and if they are coordinated closely and if they have the same interest when it comes to

filling the vacancy by ruth bader ginsburg's death. >> yes what your piece said and your ideas that mcconnell wants to make sure that he retains control of the senate over getting another justice. is that correct? >> my guess is he is very canny he surprises people with the fine print but i know who i have interviewed about mitch mcconnell and nothing matters more to him than staying majority leader put it that way but at this point trump wants another justice this will be his third on the court

we think mitch would like it but not at the expense of losing his majority in the senate and it is they see politics right now so what do you think is going on? >> i will release some audio and transcripts of trump talking about this very issue and it shows that trump and mcconnell work in tandem much more than we thought trump has wrapped his mind around this issue with the ruth bader ginsburg seat he sees it as a political plus because what this does it takes the focus off of the virus with the performance i think quite

frankly is abysmal and it goes to the issue if we put another justice on the court and it fits his idea on that decorum is very much a style and people are criticizing him to say it's not fair but appear political power play and then to say wait a minute care one - - garlanded and get a hearing or a vote and the senate majority leader controls these things.

so i think this is one of the conversations i had a couple of months ago, he said in 2016 he won the election and the last four weeks of the campaign and i thank you can see that and argue that anything he is hoping to duplicate that. >>host: you have a conversation with lindsey graham and you say chief justice john roberts talk a lot which is news to me as he's chairman of the judiciary committee. >> that is a pivotal position in all of this. but graham expresses he is worried that justice chief

roberts are also worried the court has become so split and politicized and so partisan. they don't want it to be more so does that suggest to you that kind of thinking will have any bearing on who trump pics or how he will make that tech? >> i think he will pick they cuban-american from florida that makes all the political sense in the world. she served on the supreme court of florida for many years now she is on the appeals court. and that cuban-american and heritage and conservative, it is an obvious political pack but in the trump world you learn to stay on your predictions because he

surprises. but trump and mcconnell look at this and it appeals to the evangelicals and the idea and the tradition not to ram through the supreme court new appointee in the election year along with the last 50 days of the campaign. so there is some political muscle they will exercise it. >>host: you don't see any potential for backlash?

i know the democrats are talking about if they take the majority then they would also turn radical and maybe try to pack the court. >>guest: packing the court has a bad odor about it and we don't like the way the court is or has been in all of american history and now we will add more justices because we don't like what they are doing and i think that works in a political or practical sense but when you look at those democrats this is absolutely unfair what you

think? and not having spend as much time as you have but hypocrisy and shamelessness management style for him this is business as usual. >> but say that's unfair? >> the only thing i can imagine it might make a difference a couple senate races with endangered incumbent in replacement for

ginsburg before the election that could be dicey having to choose between the trump base and moderates who don't want to lose that you need for republicans and i cannot count four of them today they may get romney or collins or michalski i don't know the fourth. >> certainly but the idea of hypocrisy. >> not going to hurt their feelings. >> actually that is the wrong word that plays ultimate political hardball and

democrats will do that as well the republicans it will be a moment where you have to sit on the edge of your seat there will be maneuvers and surprises and trump is sitting back there talking about the virus that has now killed 200,000 people and this all goes back one of the most important meetings of the oval office and that's january 28 of this year but then national security advisor robert o'brien sent to president trump would be the biggest

national security threat to your presidency and then the deputy laid out the details and was in all - - an old wall street journal reporter. and the pulitzer prize what he did in china for seven years covering the sars epidemic this virus is airborne people who don't show symptoms can spread it but most importantly missile not just be a little problem and very much like the 1918 spanish flu pandemic that

killed 675,000 people. they went to the details of this and talking about china it wasn't until three months that i learned about the january meeting which i start my book with and is one of those like somebody comes to franklin roosevelt one week before pearl harbor to say that japanese will obama's and just sitting there are not doing anything that is shocking behavior. the two pillars of the presidency and talking about this in the first interview of december of last year.

and trump said the job is to protect the people and he failed here to protect the people. what he could have done in february to come out and say i have an authoritative warning. there are things people can do and the state of the union address could have said wash her hands. keeps social distance. wear a mask. don't get in a crowded room with people for an extended period of time. that kind of remedial behavio behavior, there are models that say tens of thousands of lives could have been saved by acting in february. >>host: the store you layout here is shocking and

egregious. why do you think trump acted this way? and he purposely downplayed it to avoid a panic. but is that it? if he so concerned to spend a lot of time with race riots. and i did see in your book the chief of staff meadows was concerned about the stock market dropping. and how we account for this issue killing 200,000 people? >> and one year ago to say that would happen next year you would think i had gone off the rails.

and on march 19 ia interviewed whenever talks was over nine hours and i said why have you acted this way about the virus? this is in march everyone knew it was airborne and we were in a crisis at that point with 30000 new cases per day and said it like to downplay at i always like to downplay it so i now look at that statement so to be very direct with you he said i don't want people to panic that in this country

people are told the truth make franklin roosevelt after pearl harbor said i know you could be told the worst it's all bad news and you will not lose heart that is the american tradition if you lay it on the line to say this will be difficult. but trump wanted to cover it up. and for almost 50 years it is the action that is a failure to lead in any form or to understand his responsibility as we know. and the experts like doctor

fauci said at the end of february it's okay to go to the gym and the mall and the movies. maybe it will be different but i think right now it will be fine and to say the public health officials let trump down but one is national security and the other the doctor is coming in for the coronavirus task force meeting but trump is the only one who was at all of them. he knows what is going on. not as best as i can tell. >>host: did he feel he could out run it?

as you watch the numbers and to take upwards did he think people wouldn't notice? >> that's not the way he thinks. he thinks in a very impulsive way how do i deal with this at this moment? with their failure to accept responsibility. i talked with him in fact it is the longest one in the book it is two months ago and on the virus what grade word you give yourself? he said i would give myself the letter a if we get a vaccine a+. on this day we were 4 million

cases 142,000 americans had died he gives himself in a? look at his comments as last week when people ask him about downplaying he said i outplayed it and that is a word that i checked is not even in the scrabble dictionary and one moment he says my book is a political hit job. what about the book is it accurate? trump said it is okay. it is fine. up, down, political hit job, job, sorry to say this but he's listen to this i'm not sure he knows which way is up

or down. that compounds the problem that is leader of our country. >>host: you have covered nine presidents. i have to asked the most basic question is trumps the worst? >> as a reporter you want to cover each one and you can make all kinds of comparisons nixon, the first president i covered with carol bernstein and clearly he was a criminal president and the republican party turned on the nixon and he was forced to resign when goldwater went to the oval office and said they counted the republicans and you only have four of food - - votes

nine and i democratic party and one of those is not me. the next night nixon announced he was resigning. each one is different. almost 1000 people are dying every day. and then to describe the things that need to be done if trump would you say everybody should wear a mask in and say it is optional and then gives the rallies where thousands of people are packed together without masks. what the hell is going on?

when i did the first book on trump name to fear i said it's a nervous breakdown of the executive branch but what do you call it now? i call it that's almost man put to sleep us on - - a thousand deaths. 200,000 deaths. we need a wake-up call to the populace. it is in a political issue. it's a practical issue in a moral issue. >>host: i was going to ask if you winked trump differently is it because, as far as i

know, this may be the first president with you have come out and expressed an opinion that simply says this man is not qualified to be our president. >>guest: what i said he is the wrong man for the job. that is a conclusion based on overwhelming evidence. because the book is about the truth and as i was working on the epilogue i typed that and then i consulted and then my assistant and my wife elsa who you know so well. and was a staff writer at the new yorker she repeatedly word

take me to the woodshed i would say wait you have not confirmed this you have to talk to this person. i would have 250 words on the page typed out and then she would go after it and write more than 250 words on the page. i am blessed to know her as a friend and as a wife. >>host: but the question that i have the process that you went through and to be the most famous and accomplished reporter in america to keep

your voice neutral and in this case you spoke up as an individual to issue an opinion. that's a hard step to take for people like you and me who are trained as traditional reporter reporters. what is it about trump that made you feel this is the time you had to speak up and say something out loud? >> not only to have the luxury of ten months but people call me at all hours. and then to say i have 20 or ten generals waiting downstairs.

>> so why do they talk to you? and he said throughout the book you will do this or that. did he think he could win you over and the mainstream media's view? and see you rambled around the white house? >> that is a very practical exercise. and i would not let them off the hook to go to the book one of the most extraordinary

scenes is going down tomorrow lago to interview him on december 30th the impeachment trial is going on in the senate. i started to ask him some questions about impeachment and the transcript that he wanted the ukrainian president to talk to the attorney general about investigating joe biden. so we are shouting at each other so by releasing this transcript nixon said he did behaving the way he did.

and said you gave your opponents a sword by releasing the transcript. he said now that is perfect so we go through it and i'm saying wait a minute. why did you do this? he said it's perfect so when you say let's investigate the bidens and you talk to the attorney general mr. president of ukraine and he said no it's about corruption. i said read it right here. and he would go on and on to deny it. suggest as a matter of policy, do you think the president of the united states should go around asking for leaders to investigate his political opponents? he said it's perfect.

and for everyone else. do you understand often how cleansing it is to apologize? absolutely. he apologized i said go walk around this wonderful place and go talk to ivanka he said it doesn't make a difference what she said. i'm sure that's true but that is the interrogation of the impeach president.

but you could hear it to go on one of the networks to play the tape of that the strangest and weirdest where you meet a wall and it's not logical the president of the united states is not logical. >> he is denying reality to you and thinking he will convince you of something that is not true. jared kushner said there were four text and one is a book

but it is about using this information that it is about a strategy. >> scott adams book with persuasion and that is to understand his father-in-law, the president of the united states but kushner extracts a little bit from this controversy elevates language if you tell enough of the truth a discussion about it word elevate your message

nancy example of trump going out it's the best economy in the world and all of history going back to the roman empire that's the way it is and kushner says that's not true because in the fifties the economy was better. and the fact checkers come around and to say this is before the virus everybody attacking the president and that controversy elevates. and with the issue of the new supreme court justice the president will appoint there

will be controversy to elevate the message from trump and what is that message? trying to get a supreme court justice who has impeccable credentials and if it turns out to be the cuban-american judge from florida or whoever he is can't say see? evangelicals i am fighting for you. i'm doing this for you. and the controversy elevates message. >> it outplays the press we are john to the controversy and he creates that by lying on the subject he wants to talk about then we have to talk about the subject he wants to talk about i thought

that was a neat description of this technique of purposeful lying and how it works. is not an accident. >> it's not purposeful lying but exaggeration. been badly used to talk about the extra squeeze if you have something that's good you take an extra squeeze to overstated. and in many ways it works. >>host: as your making decisions on what to say in the book i went on twitter and asked what would you ask bob woodward? one of the questions why did you decide not to tell the

public about how much trump new and when he knew what about the pandemic and how serious the threat was? this is a perennial question working on long-range stories. so maybe you can tell people. >> because i thought he was talking about china because that was the only issue when february but then when the pandemic exploded that knowledge everyone had it what sort a story what i write. >>host: so basically my

connection is unstable. >>host: i thank you answered it even if i didn't hear it. >> no. in february everything was about china i thought that's what he was talking about. as we know we all live our lives in chronological order. it wasn't until may i learned how he got that knowledge was critical and that was at the january 28 meeting which was the key event in all of this and by may the virus was totally out of control. i didn't see it you can bring else and my to assistance to take an oath we never said is there something we should tell the public?

often a breakaway and you stories for the post regular the if there is any reason i have access to the editor because we that we are talking about china and that is the issue. the virus was out of control. i think it's a fair question. i have public safety and responsibility as a journalist and you have an obligation to report it. because trump occasionally says things that don't check out. >> i am curious if you would

release the tapes of his interviews? it something like nine hours? >> i am really seeing them selectively like the issue with the court and the judges. i will release a few minutes from now with the "washington post" and cnn and people can hear what trump has to say about mcconnell and how they are looking at the world and it's quite a series of transcripts and audios and trump realize this legacy is more of his legacy.

he understands numbers. when i interviewed him in the oval office, he had the nice parchment stack of appointments for the judges they are and was holding it and the big picture that he gave me and those at that point. >> does he have a judicial philosophy or policy interest that are consistent? i wonder reading the book how important it is to be flexible which in another way means changing his mind. it seems but then to make sure

he negated all of obama's policies. is that consistent policy direction with philosophy? >> i think it is transactional and it is the impulse. you go to the grocery store and i will take this and secretary tillotson and then codes is the number one. there was no organization or let's all get together and decide what we will do. trump decided it on his own. so the alienation, they were all headed for retirement and

dan coats director of the national intelligence was a republican senator from indiana who for 16 years a very close friend with mike pence who became the vice president. when he was vice president a lacked he said you want a job? he said no he said come meet he meant meet with trump and they offered him the number one intelligence job and and maybe it is part of the religious evangelicals and this is part of god's plan for us.

>>host: now we'll try to take some questions from the audienc audience. >> why do you think trump was willing to put himself on tape with such incriminating information contradictory to what he said in public? >>guest: it just became part of his day or week. we would talk. i wasn't writing a story. and wayne you have time to think and plan i could say what it is going on in the world that i want to ask him about for instance on may 25th

george floyd was killed and to set off an awareness of race relations. so i could ask trump and said your man of white privilege and i'm a man of white privilege also. my father was a lawyer and judge. do you understand the pain and anger that black people feel? and this is on tape and he said while bob you drink the kool-aid and he said i don't feel bad at all. so you can see in this case and dozens of others what he really felt. >> trumps often highly critical of the news media outlets that are not

explicitly aligned with his views how did you get him to speak so candidly to you especially with the coronavirus? and i want to add another part to this. i heard way back you had a special time when you thought it was best to approach people to interview them may be right before dinner when they have poured themselves a drink. i know the president doesn't drink but what is the woodward technique that gets people to own themselves with you? >> what you have to do and you know this so well, but particularly in washingto washington, everyone takes themselves very seriously. right?

is that true. when you are talking and interviewing somebody you have to take them as seriously as they take themselves so you want to ask open-ended questions and follow-up and never have an interview set up at 11 and 12 and one i leave optimistically four hours on the end of an interview so we can go as long. rarely do they go four hours but sometimes they do. so it creates not a sense i have to go someplace or do something and if you communicate that to the person you are interviewing and then to be quite willing to engage , be willing, follow-up, releasing

regarding the supreme court. it is amazing stuff and or the helicopter in the oval office. i think he grew comfortable and said a number of times you're asking good questions. i like to hear what you are lawyering about with the news of the day. >> people often described him as a narcissist to think about himself. did you find that to be true? >> i'm not a psychologist and the psychiatric slave so i

don't think that way and what i'm working toward and as detailed as possible. >> here's another question about a piece of news in your book. >> what do you think when the president talks about a powerful new weapon? you said you could not confirm it but have you gained any insight? >> yes when i was opening he said even the production and it's the most constructive thing in the world's people said yes they know that

somebody else in a couple of people it's one of the trump mysteries and i ask him people say yes it exist so some experts. >>host: so i am curious if you found him to be surprising or different from what you were expecting. >> so i think that could be a barrier. >> did you give that picture? >> absolutely.

and we spent a long time and it doesn't and then to say he thought about this before. and then we went through all 12 he said did you write them down. he said with them down a gallon? that my wife i'm not trying to tell him what you do but what

my reporting line is mobilization. people want to know it is like the manhattan project that led to the atomic bomb. and it's a famous moment in history, 1939 albert einstein wrote roosevelt the private letter to say the business of uranium and so forth and einstein was just getting going at this point and he said somebody could make a bomb. a devastating bomb and what did roosevelt do in say i don't want to panic people? he said action now and set up the manhattan project and six

years later it was realized in the first atomic bomb was exploded over hiroshima. and lots of debate determined if we did the right thing and so forth but roosevelt did in that case is prepare the nation to say action now. let's not panic. >>host: it seems like you are having conversations with him pushing back and ways his own advisors didn't. do you feel he's isolated? >> and with his own lack of curiosity and lack of organization and intellectual stamina that i have to make

this decision and so often he won't ask anyone but just do it and tweaked it out. and we need to be reminded this is partisan and on the facts that are on the table. thousand people are dying and the experts say it will get worse to have convergence with the regular flu and who knows what we will be presented with in the coming months and we have a leader in there is robert redfield head of the cdc to say he is a devout

catholic and devoted his life to protect him from united states and is up there under oath this week to say wear a mask. and then trump cares about that us in another press conference and redfield was confused. god help us. if you have the president of the united states calling the doctor to say i like your diagnosis and that political whatever's going to my head

and people piled on to say he's not going to say something that is medically supported and trump will not even let the world's expert on this issue to tell the congress under oath to restate and call him up to say he was confused? i don't want to use the word but the word is that is outrageous behavior. and i have had talks with trump about this this is a leadership moment for you and

he would say no. i would say look. the virus is what the election will be about. this was a couple of months ago. >> sorry to interrupt and it's a the clock and we have to get you to the release of the tapes. thank you so much. >> i'm getting a little worked up. >> i can tell. thank you again for all of us here at politics and prose stay well and well read