joining us today we also like to thank our audience for watching and participating life. if you like to watch more programs or support the commonwealthclub's efforts in making virtual programming, please visit commonwealth club.org , online. again, i'm lenny mendoza thank you and stay safe everyone area thank you again john. >>. >> now on book tv, or television for serious readers. >> we bring a former white house press secretary and medications director sean spicer, a lifelong republican . his role in reshaping the republican national committee's pr strategy the party revealed after losses in 2012 area implemented his

same strategies in 2014 the party to sweeping victory in 2016, prior to the must-see republican primary debate sean worked on behalf of the party to restructure the base format trading more informative and fair debates. sean's efforts at the rnc's chief strategist and medications director landed him a spot in pr weeks power 50 list for2016 . the last join us at the reagan library in july 2018 his book the breathing, politics, the press and president . he had a virtual discussion about his brand-new book leading america examines the upward battle instrument is half to face the media, hollywood, academia and big tech. we now invite you to enjoy our virtual program coming to you from our air force one leadership academy oval office with sean spicer and reaganfoundation institute executive director john hi bush . >> sean spicer, it is great to have you with us at the reagan library and obviously

all socially distance and a long way awaybut congratulations, really great book . i had a lot offun reading it so i know it's her second book . congrats on the great reed. >> it's a shame not to be back at such a historic place and i want to give my first book to her, it was actually just so refreshing to come out there and have a discussion with you and answer questions so it's great that we get to do it but it's a shame it can't be inperson . >> when the world opens back up again sean we'd love to have you. so put it on your calendar. now, this is her second book. you have been since you left the white house and when you wrote this book, just as i expected, you took the opportunity near your first chapter to tell your story about dancing with the stars

and why you did it and the whole decision process that led to that. and i wonder if you talk to us about your experience. would you do it again, you feel like it was good for your career and just get into that for us. >> so as i'm in the book i was asked when i left the whitehouse i said no for a lot of reasons i go into . most of which are because i'm a horrible dancer and i have nobody. and it's a huge time commitment i didn't have so the long story short is that i continue the conversation with the executives there. i walked through the whole process in the book and i finally came to a point where i said to myself, you don't get that many opportunities to do things that are on different and at some point people just stop asking and they don't go, so i thought okay. this is the last time and i had developed sort of a

friendship and a bond with some of the executives there had been very helpful in the first interaction. i said this is a good idea and we walked through it and i finally came to the realization that this will be fun area and i'm bad it only this so it will only last two or three weeks and i can check the box and move on area and so i said yes and i walked through this. you mentioned in the chapter book, i knew that this there would be some headwinds, i knew the leftwould lose their mind . i knew the media would go nuts. i just didn't realize how quick i'll soon and how visceral area then it was just interesting to see, it was like everything got consumed by the other, what you cannot fill in is he working as hard, then he thought politics was just so, it was an introduction to me in a world i had never been in because it was sort of like this mashup of the

different cast members and where they'refrom , lamar odom and there was sort of a sports thing, a music thing with some of the cast members but then you were physically in hollywood and dealing with the headwinds and i found that most people, not just around the show but even that i bump into in hollywood and la were nice kind people. it was almost like people had to ring a bell at one point and go just remember, he's a republican, he works with trump and maybe like i don't like you anymore. it was challenging as i may never made anything political . i didn't want to be. the whole show, the beauty of it was it was this distraction from politics and it was this fact you could have a fun, civil good conversation with people like we used todo . and not feel like everything waspolitical . so anyway, i enjoyed it. they tell you at the beginning of the show that it's a family.

and it's sort of like one of those catchphrases they throw your way. you're going to love it, it's going to be a family and i said yeah, yeah and i honest to god i count it as one of the best experiences of my life. i met some amazing people that i still stay in touch with today . i'm going to be visiting with some of them in the next couple of weeks as i travel around to different places and we reached out and i said i know you're coming to my town and it's not just the cast members , if the people who do security . who do the publicity. who do the for food services on the stage area. i mean, it really was and i'm glad i did it. i had a blast. i learned a bunch of stuff and i honestly if they called me today and they said were doing another season i come back in a heartbeat.

>> that was my next question is if given the opportunity would you do it again and it sounds like you would. >> it's like it's good wholesome fun and i talk about this in the book but of all the reality shows, there is no pride if you win dancing with the stars. you get a glitter ball and i joke in the book i say unless your aficionado, there's no value. you can go to tiffany's court sell it at some of these, maybe you can put it on ebay but there's no huge cash, $10 million and you get a recording contract or become a professional dancer so you're there to have fun and cool parties everybody there tears for each other area that you're up against yourself. so it's almost like one of those things where you get to be cheering on everyone else, they'recheering you on . you're not trying to knock someone out. it's not like survivor where you're trying to get rid of

them. >> the closest thing i can think of in my life where i took flyer like that, i became a judge for a miss americapageant and i caught the same kind of flat that you're talking about . how can you do something like that? but at the end of the day, good on you sean, taking risks and having fun, that's what life is supposed to be all about. >> it's funny because i agree with you. when youlook back , there's things that i've done so many televisionappearances and done things that frankly i don't want my kids to watch . and it's nice to be able to say like my kids now, we now gather . i watched before i did the show and so even now as they head into season 29 on monday nights i can sit down with my kids and they can vote for someone and talk about who is thatperson , they did a good job.we need more of that, not less of it. and so it was fun on a lot of

levels and it was really an enjoyable experience. in the book i talk about the fact that i'm on the board of a few organizations and igot to bring wounded servicemembers and their families to the show . you forget that you're out there, everybody goes to the reagan library, but for a lot of folks being told you can get thishollywood night out where you get to come and meet all the stars and get treated like a vip , to say you and your caregiver, it's a really cool thing to be able to do so it's fun to make the experience broader than myself. >> and it made for a great start to the book so way to go sean area that the only thing i have to say and i was surprised i didn't know this until i read your book was the one guy who seems like a nice guy, tom bergeron, he's

the one guy that takes shots at you from the start. it just seemed odd. >> if you had picked up 30 faces at that show and said tell me the one guy that's going to pop off, i'm with you. i love watching this guy on tv, he's always funny and jovial and despite the fact that he popped off about me i still think he's a good host . i think this is what makes the difference between conservatives and liberals is that he may not like me, obviously i don't like his politics but i think he'sgood at what he does . so it's weird and i said itat the outset. he's been a good host of the show. he's entertaining . i just thought why of all the people that have been on the show that have done some rather nefarious things, you're coming after me? no names of course. >> well put. and then around that time before or after you hit the

talk show circuit, you did fallon, you did stephen colbert, that thing with the emmys and all that. it seems like it would have been a lot of fun but at the same time that's where you talk about how you know in the modern day it seems like we have comedy has taken a turn where it all seems to be personal and fighting now, it's not really comedy anymore. >> this goes back to what i was saying about tom. i go back to the day, leno and lemberg letterman were equal opportunity offenders and it was funny. they poked fun at people. they work mean about it and the different terms we've taken is that whether it's colbert or fallon or kimball or seth myers even is that we've got to be mean and we got to be political. you've got a long history in republican politics, i was watching the other night a clip , i didn't watch the show and it was jamie harrison is the democratic

challenger and i'm trying to remember, i think he was on kimball but the point is in my entire political career i've never heard of the challenger campaign going on a late-night show that wasn't running forpresident . that's where it is now where we've tried to figure out how to turn these late-night shows into the political shows where they can also tell jokes, and find ways to poke fun at conservatives for the president. used to be this place where the end of the day you could turn in and laugh andfall asleep . i don't thinkthey're funny anymore and that's a shame . >> it is and then you know you ripped from that to a vivid example of not just specifically comedy but it's about how the media has decided to treat liberals versus conservatives and you use the famous blackface example that whether you're a liberal or a conservative, a number of people involved in that yet the pending which

side of the fence you're on your treated differently area to give us an example of that . >> look at megan kelly. she's on her show asked a question about the appropriateness of blackface and the funny thing is i don't want to relitigate it but i think what i think megan was getting at is a deeper understanding of why certain things offend people of color which i frankly think is as light person is helpful because we need to understand more why certain things that we might not be knowledgeable about offend certain people because of past racial injustices. i think that broadens our understanding and our concern because we go i never understood that, i've never had to do it. i can now understand in a more personal way when it troubles you or hurt you and therefore i don't want to do it again. it makes us better people. we don't use words that might offend somebody just because

we were brought up in a way or exposed to an environment in which we are allowed to see certain things that again depending on our economic status or where we grew up but she got knocked off her show for asking a question. she apologized etc. but then you go down the long list i lay out in the book and all these folks on the left used blackface whether elected officials on the left, and democratic politics for people like joy behar or kimball, all these other folks and yet there's not been because if you're on the left, excused and washed away as long as you are advancing a greater good in the leftist culture. it's okay and forgiven and you go through this with comedy, i talk about the. saturday night live where one comic was not allowed back on because of a joke yet some of these other folks when they find homophobic or anti-semitic things they said as long as they say that wasn't too i am anymore, joy from msnbc when she made up a

whole host of stories about the fbi investigating packs of her thing yet shegets rewarded with a primetime show . so there's this amazing double standard that exists when the left does something and the right does something and it's this more pervasive cancel culture where we figured out who gets canceled out because it's not the subject , certain people can say something, other people can't and if you're in the pursuit of the leftist ideology, joy behar the other day and is unbelievably, and i use of the word attractive not in a physical sense but just as a candidate, there's an unbelievably attractive candidate in the sense that she'sarticulate. she got a great plan . he has a message and she's the kind of person she's running in baltimore she's got these ads on that are just amazing . she goes on the view and joy behar tells her, a black

woman that she had permission to dress in blackface from the black community. i didn't realize you could do that. where do you go to ask for it and kim as a black woman didn't have the support of the black community and i'm thinking to myself in what world does an older white woman preach to a black woman and tell her that she doesn't have the support of the black community but she has a white woman does ? i guess on the view it's okay . >> no problem with that. the book is great because you play at a high level. you get down in the weeds on a lot of these issues and at the higher altitudes sean, you go after corporate activism, big tech , hollywood. >> i think what i tried to do is not necessarily go after, but it also is exposing because i don't think when i was researching the different

subjects and i would go down the rabbit hole and say wait a minute, that can't be true is it was like you start to realize what's really going on and what motivates some of these people and it explains a lot is the way i would put it. why would a company do this? why would a hollywood firm not want to do this and you look at it and go it's finally making sense now. >> so in the exposing of big institutions like that, is there one sean that is like the most pernicious. it's one that is undercutting our society more than any other? is it the fact that big tech goes after censorship, isn't that corporate america is just bowing to political correctness? or all they are all a pox on older houses as youexpose it all ? >> i think it's a little pox

on all their houses but what worries me is the chapter on education where you realize what's happening in public schools these days in terms of not what they're teaching them in terms of math and science and all these things but rather this idea of what to protest, what causes to care for and there's a part in the book where i talk about the fact that many schools like in fairfax county allows kids days off to go protest climate change. alot of people will look at this and i say in the book , i'm not not here to take issue with the issue. what i am here to say is if you're reading the book and you say i think that climate change is a bad issue and ask you to questions. one, is this an appropriate use of class time at a time when we're falling behind in areas like stem, can we say let's take a day off and go protest something? some people may say it's worth the day off because you learn something, the way we're falling behind especially behind china, it's

not. the second thing i would argue is take out climate change for a second and assume republicans take over your school board and that becomes a pro-life march, are you still comfortable with public school teachers and your kids out to support conservative cause and i don't think many liberals would answerthe question the same way anymore . so the thing i think is fascinating is to realize what's happening when so many parents are working so hard to put their kids on the bus in the morning they assume that the teachers just teaching him, giving him or her the tools to succeed when in fact they're coming home and saying i don't like donald trump because he's a bad man or i understand this issue is important and you're thinking to yourself why is your job , not mine as a parent to teach them values and things like that. i'll leave the teaching of the studies and the subject up to you. you leave the values and principles up to me as a parent. >> i couldn't agree withyou more. so let me ask you , knowing

what you know about the university experience in america, would you ever second-guess whether to send your kids to college? i mean, it's still a ticket to success in society but it concerns a lot of parents now and it didn't used to. >> that's a really good question because especially in the age of covid where you're saying i'm stroking is $70,000 check to private institution for a kid to sit at home and go on zoom when i can sit around and take classes online or study.so i hope that there's a fundamental transformation in how politics are looked at. i don't know that it will happen in part because of how it's financed but i think it should be and i think the question you're asking is it

so important because there's things kids can learn today that they don't necessarily need to go to a four-year liberal arts school. i can tell you in retrospect in some ways i would not be where i am today and i not go to these small liberal arts colleges but didn't prepare me for thefuture? i don't think so living with folks and getting to know folks, sure of the classes that i took , no . and i mentioned in the book i had the opportunity to throw a lot of foundation grants to go on to college campuses and the a college speaker and it's amazing because how many college conservative speakers have you had on your campus? one, five, two. it's never been more than five and it's usually one or two and i think to myself this is an opportunity or the kids to learn, and every time i've gone somewhere been greeted by protests and usually some kind of outrageous statements, but there's always a packed crowd of kids because that's what they should be and it's almost like they the staff and the faculty are complicit in trying to push out these

voices and this opportunity to learn and to hear from somebody that's not and the funny part is i don't know about you i go to, i'll tune into folks on the left area i want to know what they're saying area and it fascinates me and i think it makes me stronger as a conservative you understand why and how they construct anargument . so it's almost like and i don't think i'm alone in that but a lot of conservatives like to do that but it's like the left feels as though it's a threat to hear any voice that might give opposition to their thoughts. >> i couldn't agree more. in fact on the way into the reagan library to interview you i was i would turn on npr and i do that specifically for that reason. i want to understand what the other side thinking and saying and how does it line up against my own arguments so i couldn't agreemore . you recount in the book sean you look at the sectors of society and the media, hollywood and entertainment,

academia area big tech and now we are heading into sports. all of these things that have become political theater where it seems that the left is really winning the day. i can't go to an nfl football game without having to kneel to prove your patriotic. and it seems to me, tell me what you think about this. the only sector left where conservative ideology as a fighting chance is in politics. and it's not even fair there either area is there any part of society yet that the liberal imaginationdoesn't own ? >> i think the one that i think is next on the list is religion. and i think you're going to see a lot of the left start to co-opt religion and start to say that you can be religious if you will and have all of these left-wing policies and views and they don't, so they're going to co-opt religion so that you

can't get up and run for office or try to espouse your views and talk about it in the context of christianity or judaism. about it sort of having this muted sense of well, you can be a good catholic and still be pro-choice and you can be a good jew and still allow for the following. they're going to start to dilute the meaning and the strength of some of these religions so i think that's what's going next but i do think you're right that the one place that conservatives will have the ability to go out and fight and win is in elected politics because at the end of the day if theidea is popular enough , you get +1 you're in office. you also see and i talk about this in the book, the way they're covered. the left it's a much different path than the right does when they're running for office and you see that now with joe biden where he's talking or not about his

position on court packing which would be a pretty substantial issue for the american people to know and he shames reporters into asking them saying of course i'm not going to tell you it would give you a headline,god for bid and headline . that's kind of normally, i've been doing this a long time. that's what younormally want . >> those very same reporters don't dare to follow up and say i really want to know. >> but they actually feel like and i was watching this, i felt like they were shamed into going i'm sorry mister biden, i just go back to my trauma question and when you have a press corps that's complicit , that's a problem and i think the nice thing for me is when you see the opportunities that exist more on the right whether it's news platforms like my show on newsmax or the daily caller, all these opportunities that are on the

right but also opportunities like thiswhere now the reagan library can say yes , we're close because of covid but we can continue to get the word out and we can do facebook live and the conversation can continue in a way that it couldn't have 510 years ago. that's crucial to the conservative movement. >> and going back to your other point about the next sector of religion , as we speak this, these hearings going on with amy coney barrett and whether asa christian she could be a good judge . >> the other thing is i was thinking that the senate democrats and i'm not in the business of giving them advice were making a strategic mistake because every time i watched amy coney barrett get an answer i was just blown away by her depth and breadth ofknowledge . the course of president and i think to myself i've seen

more messages with people saying that so i want my daughter to look up to, that's the kind of woman that i want to be a role model for friends ofmine or my daughter or my friend . and i think that it's strategically a mistake the longer the democrats drive this out because she is such a great example of what a good conservative constitutional judge looks like and i keep saying he hearings going, let's do it. it reflects well on us and i think that the democrats are talking about everything but her and her qualifications and it makes them look like for all of their virtue signaling that you have a very highly, immensely qualified woman for the court and yet they're coming up with like well, we understood you replaced stevia with sugar in ourrecipe . one of your kids homework, they are falling out of the kitchen sink between her faith and all of these other

extraneous things that have nothing to do with her ability to be a fantastic justice. and it just show you how desperate they are. >> and as we found out a day or two ago, all with no notes, >> when senator cornyn did that i said i hope to god that you know what you're doing and i assume he's a brilliant tactician. okay and when she held it up it wasn't just that she held it up. the face that she made, it was like i want her, i was so proud of her and i don't even know her. >> so you talk a fair length in the book about the media's treatment of president trump and some well said stuff. and i don't, tell me i want to hear how you answer this question but while the media in your mind and my mind, a lot of people's minds has

been remarkably unfair to president trump. i mean, really unfair. he's brought some of this on himself. his style and his approach so talk about that. >> out give you an example, i talked to him the other day and the line used in the debate, 47 months versus 47 years in action area into that. you have a ton of accomplishments. you've made progress rid the president has been treated unfairly but people don't vote for you because you were treated unfairly. they both for you because you accomplished things and you have a vision of how to move the country and people's lives forward. so if you want to settle grievances there's plenty of time for that after office or in the second term until you get to it it's not worth it . there are days in which you he can either be clearer on his statements or understand their out to get you so don't

let them take the bait, don't hang it out there. >> .. i'm sure you had to be frustrating for you and you admired him and supported them but of all the jobs where the president would need good counsel on do this, try this, do that, to come from this communications people and that we speaks. he can be as on best friend and his own worst enemy in that regard. it's your profession to advise him and if he's not going to take the advice he's not going to take the advised. >> the hard part though is he's

been doing this for himself for so long it's hard at that time 71 years old to say hi, tell me how to operate. by the way, you guys are part of that establishment, meaning rnc faction the told me this would never work. i did it my way. i'd would come in and tell me how i should operate as president. it's not as easy to go with it till somebody who in many cases i given advice during the campaign, he and a lot of cases not -- chose not to listen to it. he would look over and say see, i did it my way. it worked. he does. he puts it. i spent 25 years writing communications plans in giving advice either elected officials, military officers, what have you and say they would tinker with it and said i i would rather st this way and then let's executed. trump said here's what i want to say, how what to say. go get out there. it's a different dynamic.

>> the penultimate example has to be that moment in the campaign, you were not yet white house press secretary, this is campaign, the hollywood access thing. 99 out of 100 people that i i w in the world of politics that event experts their whole lives would've said that's it, it's over, hang up your cleats, it's done. trump just barreled right through it. >> that was the second debate in st. louis which theoretically we should be having this week. not only -- think about this. instead of being contrite they should ask for forgiveness and he turns red, fly to st. louis, sits in the front row and says let's roll. i'm thinking to myself who does this? that's the kind of thing that

you would just never -- honestly got if you had handed me a note and said here's what you should do, you will win, i would've been like get john heubusch some help right now. [laughing] and yet there's a reason when the execute that they didn't tell anyone on staff. no one will think this is a good idea, and they were right. >> really amazing. so the elections are about three weeks from now, turn on the nightly news all you hear is the polls are bad for trump, , thins are terrible, all this stuff. and yet i'm remembering that's exactly what you and the campaign went through four years ago. use parallels to that and could it possibly turn it any different this time? >> there's a lot of parallels especially in the states and the numbers we are seeing. there's lots of laws in the

polls but that being said i think we're headed in a lot of places? no. it is extremely close. in a lot of places he is behind what we were last time which is we were behind but that was a delta we could pick up if when executed the grant can successfully. that's still there. there are some variables that are different. hillary clinton was a despised candidate by many in her own party. jill biden may have some crazy, wacky policies and don't think he's the same joe biden he was from ten years ago by these not hated. joe biden is a nice guy. he's likable and there's not that visceral reaction pathways with hillary clinton. when you have a state like michigan and you take out a bad candidate like hillary clinton and put in joe biden, it makes that go okay, that puts michigan in in a different place now. pennsylvania was 44,000 votes,

wisconsin 24,000 wisconsin 24,000 votes. suddenly these states become much more in play. arizona, there's no question about it, that's in jeopardy right now. that's a state we shouldn't have to think about. that being said i think the trump campaign would argue both nevada and minnesota are but were not in a place right now where we're at 270 and trying to gain more. there's a much better scenario for biden getting there than us, meaning there are more states that are in place that could put them over the top. that being said i think the secret weapon has always been that far the last four years the trump campaign and the rnc have worked on the ground came at a data operation that allow them to focus on the general election as opposed to the last six months in the case of biden. that in my mind is where the field goal. like all other things a field goal is worth three and yet to get the race within three. >> that's right.

back to the book for a second. you make the point a few times i think, because of modern day social media, internet, tweets, the rest of that, it's kind of like donald trump and his massive social media machine and his ability to direct contact with voters here and then there's the media that's all the post to them almost all opposed to in and not on his side. in some respects i look at this upcoming election see i widened her with to win? is it trump social media arsenal and his ability to reach voters directly, or does the majority of the media being against you for so long, is that going to have this eroding effect and there's no way your social media can get around it? that kind of the battle here, right? >> it is. in the state like florida trump

one by over nine points last time. he's not down to plus five and that erosion and a voting group that is that this portion at large can be affected and the other issue you can joke about this at his rally in pennsylvania where he talked about suburban women, what do i need to do for you to like me? he knows there's an erosion in the script and when you play on it razors edge come with us because media how did you every night or whatever the reason is, that's not a good place going into the final stretch of election. he has to figure out how to make that up that dealt in those key groups. the funny thing is the place where would have never guessed or probably wouldn't have predicted trump would be where he is now, the margins he has gained some hispanic community in the black community have been amazing. the problem is as much a big deal as amita likes to making out, they are much smaller lots of electric. as much as you can do well with

them, a small drop in senior is not as good as a bigger game in the black or hispanic voting bloc because of the disproportionate size is a total proportion for the electorate. >> let's presume he makes up the ground and this becomes a very tight election. do you foresee, given the thing set up and set them both sides, that we could end up with one heck of a bush v. gore 2000 times an hundred? are we possibly heading there? there? >> i think so. when you think about a state like pennsylvania was change the rules and allowed ballots to be casco mail in ballots to be cast without signatures or postmarks seven days after election you can say there's no democrats are probably going to lose on election night and make it up on mail in ballots. they will argue is that any ballot should count, make a simple argument people would say any ballot should count.

they will not take bitumen at the deadline the didn't have signature, in pennsylvania they call naked ballots, didn't have a second envelope stuffed inside and able claim the voter intent was to vote for joe biden. i think you will see multiple bush v. gore. even in bush v. gore the big issue was florida but in new mexico the bush campaign was within i think 1000 votes and chose not to contest that. i think in this election we have the potential to see multiple state contested within the days following the november 3 in person election voting. it will be interesting to see how many are happening and whether that would ultimately go to the supreme court. >> i'm going to go back to your role as press secretary minute. i know have a few more minutes but i won't get to ask these questions often some subtotal t there.

everyone knows but the role of press secretary, any president, is one of if not the toughest job in washington, d.c. you are on the stage like no other. you went out there, took your knocks, faced the press like he always did day today. traditional approach to facing the white house press corps. since then there's been these different sayings, will have a briefing today, we are not. we would have it for a few weeks. do you think it's a tool that, good or bad, the press secretary in the president should allow that to occur every day to get the message out? or do you think it's become kind of a joke? it's just a pitched battle that, a lot of fear but not serving its initial purpose. where have you come to settle on that in your mind? >> the american people have a right to see the government in action almost every day in some

way, shape, or form. this president goes out and engages with the meat almost daily. the question is does the press have an opportunity to question our leadership? they should. i don't think an on camera briefing every day suits that. they should be some mechanism by which the press this given access. they can ask questions everyday, that's a fallacy to perpetuate, the doors always open. they can walk right up to the present secretary store, literally an open bullpen with the exception of the press secretary shall office. they don't need to have an on camera briefing every day. it's good to see it once in a while maybe once or twice a week especially with the present engaging the way he does. it does not need to be what has become a show. there can be a combination of on camera, off-camera but it has become an opportunity for a lot of these folks to become youtube stars that want to sensationalize it.

there's different reforms. from what i think the camera does need to go on the report. it should stay on the press secretary as a dozen some of the other institutions whether it's the pentagon our state department, because it shouldn't be about the reporter. it should be about holding cabinet officials accountable and not allowing them to have their click. there are things like that that can be done to make it less excitable, chaotic, and more informative. >> is there a reporter or a media outlet that you would single out to say, listen, they are tough as heck on you or the white house but you have to give them their due. is there an individual, somebody would say is a good example of somebody that might come at your real hard but they're absolutely fair? >> i always like to single out

jonathan swann axios but there's a handful of them, bloomberg is really good. keith hall that at reuters but this thing about jonathan in particular and jen as well is they are tenacious is probably the best word. worker they go after stories but they are fair and feel safe to use john, i have the story, this is what it says. do you dispute any part of the? if so tell me why. i'm not going to send go to change it, i want to give you your deal. that they are well sourced. they know what they're talking about and they can be trusted. i get i don't agree with everything the right or how they write but i don't often doubt when they see a byline of theirs that there's anything wrong with the story. i'll say there might be some dispute among the quarter something like that but they are generally in the bull's-eye area. >> that's the side of a real pro, right? that's the way it used to be.

>> that is to say, i disagree with you but you you are fair t the story. i didn't like the ankle. but these days it's few and far between i i can say that about. >> you are the first white house press secretary in the history of the united states, i think, to leave the post and then come back in the role of covering the white house and the present secretaries briefing. you are the very first, right? how did that feel? >> i was the present secretary. i did "dancing with the stars" and then walk into the press briefing room, i have a show every night at 6:00 at axios. we have a seat, newsmax, i thought it would be really interesting for the show to be able to go in, asked the president some questions. that ranked up there in the nervousness, because i was aspect the president is now calling on me, number one.

number two, you know when you're on television but it was like in a different light and you got all the eyes of the press corps saying what are you going to ask? i had broke some nbc say it's inappropriate that i was there. the funny thing is -- i had some folks from -- the questions i asked him what was about to stop act, a congress that was trading stocks and profiting often, actually several at the time and then as to another question about his response i think early in covid. other outlets rode off of the questions i asked. i was the 15th, 16th person that was called up and briefing afp were so outraged and without way to second, i asked the questions that you didn't ask and now you're going to get mad at me? >> you are on the speaking circuit and a water what have you chosen to have your message be all about? what is of the theme of when you talk to any number of different

groups? >> it depends. it depends on who the group is and because sometimes it's an organization that really was oa specific message. i do a lot of speeches on college campuses and a lot of times that message is getting involved, understand the landscape we live in today and a lot of what the things through the book are. there's a lot of political organizations i speak to us will get a special election season. it's a lot of groups that want to know what the lay of the land is here what it was like 2016. what worked, what didn't, what tools of the trade did we see? i think that's part of it is trying to get people to understand how to create successful, comprehensive medication strategies. a lot of people get wrapped around these days and tactics, i sent a tweet, i posted this. there are all tactics. how do you combine those two critic comprehensive strategy that drives home that just a message but a message people act and behave differently because whether they vote, volunteer,

donate, so trying to get people to understand that because too often again it's like you can people get caught up, i put up 15 tweets. that's great. what were you trying to achieve? >> i got it. here's the very last question. i know you involved in number of nonprofits. you do some great work in that area. is there one you'd like to give a shout out to, someone, one that we should come you should talk about briefly today because of the important? >> both the independence fund and the yellow ribbon fund our two veterans organizations. the independent font provide track which is devoted with mobility issues and these look like little tanks and they give a better the ability to -- wink i said i would love to go for walk. what he meant was instead of having someone pushing you getting this and you go in his backyard and which is so cool. they allow it to go hunting because and get over all sorts of trade. yellow ribbon fund, if you

become it going to walter reed, servicemembers taken care of but it's the wife for the caregiver with a son or daughter that have to pay for. you're getting 30 or $40,000 a year and just like to walter reed and staying at hotel will cost 1000 bucks and they take care of that. >> great. we'll everybody listening and watching today would give them a hand. sean, just a wonderful book. congratulations. >> thanks. >> take care of yourself. >> i look forward to being there in person against him. >> you got it. thanks. >> every year the key to ask members of congress about the books they are reading. joining us now on booktv is representative tom cole, republican from oklahoma. we've asked you this question before. you've always had a large reading list. what's on your current reading list?