>> you are watching book tv on cspan2. here's what's coming up, next lieutenant general h.r. mcmaster over national security advisor to president trump offers his on the foreign policy and challenges facing the u.s. patent jessica ghetto reports on the refugee system later journalist david davis provides the first wheelchair basketball team comprised of world war ii veterans. buy more schedule information on your program guide @booktv.org. select thank you for joining the institute author and insight book talk series. series of discussions with authors and important newly released books on american politics, policy and leadership. i husband, john mccain but his whole life to promote american character driven leadership

and democracy to the public. and it is incredibly important today to carry that legacy forward by any means possible. today's installment, the roles of freedom and democracy in american foreign policy were teacher general h.r. mcmaster served in the military for 34 years. held the position of the 26th assistant to the president for national security affairs as well as being a close friend of my husband for many years. he'll be talking about his new book, battleground, the fight to defend the fee and jeffrey world doctor michael crow the 1h president of arizona state university. a mccain institute trustee and dear friend to my family. we are proud to host mcmaster and president grover will be at timely discussion on u.s. foreign policy.

>> go ahead you can begin. >> alright great. glad to see everybody here. general mcmaster nice to see you again. what i want to do first is say the book, fantastic peace of work got many little tags on it. i want to spend some time relative to a set of core ideas that you put out in the book. in fact some that i think are fantastic in the sense they are concepts we should be using in the articulation of our thinking about foreign policy and national event policy and so forth. i articulated 20 questions for you. seventeen i would like to have quick answers to. that is not the elongated questions. in the last three or really want to spend a bunch of time on. the first one is and you articulate this. we see unbelievable changes

1945. look at the results of the two great wars the 20th century we have the most peaceful europe we've ever seen. democracy in our species we've seen economic progress like no one could ever have possibly imagine. we have the realignment of germany and japan and a successful economic democracy. so the question then to you because all the back to the estonian promise the notion of protect and advance democracy. in general, how do you think things are going? in general and the last 120 years in general how do you think? >> what president crow what a pleasure is to be with you and be here at an institute that is named for men of whom i have tremendous respect, senator mccain is what a thrill it was to know him over the years i admire him and his record of service. i'd met her you and your record of service. what a wonderful institution. you know i think were pretty

happy about it. if you look at this last 100 years in the context of the broad sweep of history, i think we have made tremendous progress. especially after the two most destructive wars in modern history, world war i and world war ii, to crafted a peace without great power thought. in a peace as you alluded to his people out of poverty. but i think we cannot be complacent. smit complacency never works, right. >> i lasted there for a second period let me go to, no complacency, lots of progress, tremendous struggle. in fact it is the struggle in some ways the soul in core of

humanity. what would be individually free humans. what would be able to advance their own lives based on the core principles of our democracy as a species or not. and we have made tremendous progress. so one of the words we use them battleground is an important word to me as a heavyweight wrestler and all the things i was involved in, what is the core of the fight? it's more than marshall. and you talk about that. do you think it's the core of the fight? >> think the core of the fight is we have to compete effectively to ensure that are free and open societies remain secure, are prosperous, and can extend effectively. we have to recognize that we have to compete and reenter a reasonable competition. because of opera a jet over optimism in the 1990s and maybe too much pessimism and resignation in the 2000's

: : : you have to testified yourself from being overrun or wound bid others and that's the nature of the fight. it's everything basically. >> it's everything, and a major argument in the book of course the strategic competence and that excepts is our duty to integrate elements of national power with like-meaned partner we want to militarize democracy or put opt doh! want use only law enforcement or information. it's our ability to integrate the efforts and integrate

efforts across the public and private sector and take the approach to these problem you take at arizona state which is an interdiscipline incarcerate roach to challenges and. >> prisoning in -- bring wherey you made significance contributions to the sign of our national defense policy and foreign policy. we're still in the short answer form. this motion of when does something not become any longer a strategic throat. i'll use russia which has been a strategic out there to the out and may still be a trackis it there. if a been all over this place, and rich. went there and said you're custodying me. they don't even know how to gas up an airplane, and doesn't mere they're not military threat and doesn't mean they're not a strategic but their economy is declining, a dictator who roams

the planet doing whatever he wants with this sort of new approach i'm going bring in here. mexico's economy is now almost as large as russia's economy. there are fading g20 and mexico is a rising d20 to at the question the short form when is a threat no long are strategic giant it's strugglic if you have massive nuclear arsenal and you're up enscrupulous. russia wants to drag everybody else down. putin recognize the constraints he is under, economically, demographically, especially now on the wake of covid, the collapse of oil price us. what did he do recently in poisoned his main political opponent, navalny. what russia walesyn't to do is sow touts about who we are as people. to polarize our seat, pit us

against each other and reduce our confident in our democratic republicans and institutions and processes. russia isn'tstrung strong enough to credibility vulnerabilities in our society but they are strong enough to exploit them and that's what we see russia doing. putin's theory of victory is to be the last man standing. and to be successful in his cam pin of sub version fence the free world. >> which is the classic position of a dictator, classic position of singularly folked individual, and i democratic by the sense of honor lost after they collapse of the soviet union and the ambition to restore russia to national greatness he is using tealed that limited but dangerous. >> it's nate tower of different kind of classification for a strategic relationship. next quick question. so before world war ii the u.s.

army was a small institution, the military of the out was japanly only expanded for the time of war. we never found ourself in a position of maintaining a war footing or war capabilities for decade after decade. this is the first time in our republics history we have done this. what their costs or risks of -- i'm not saying it's good or bad. what are the costs a risk of a permanent war footing. >> should be a permanent dedeterrence. you and i think what we realized in the 20th schnur when there was the north america could rely on the moats of the atlantic and pacific ocean, technology eliminated that aim of free security and we're in an

increasingly interconnected and shrinking world in which challenges to our security overseas can quite readily reach our shores and that's whether it's jihaddist terrorists on september 11th or a new coronavirus that reached our shores earlier this year. so, i think what the argument in the book in battlegrounds is we have to stay engaged and we have to have a broad range of defensive capabilities, not just military. to convince or adversaries they account misch their objective through the you of force or the use of other means below the threshold of what might eve his sit a military response. >> so that segways to my next quick question. how do you design a comprehensive defense strategy, military, cyber, byow, climb, political infear the military is not well-equipped to deal with those of things and not equipped

to deal with some of them at all. look at our response to the pandemic we look like a pack of fools in a lot of of ways because we can't get our act together, can't make command and control decisionses the way we should and a lot of of things going on at awful levels-not just the national level. the question is a simpling one. how do you design a comprehensive defense strategy and tee stereotype a comprehensive defense strategy that has to be more than the military. >> you start with design thinking. framing complex challenges, understanding them on their own terms and then viewing them through the lens of our vital interests. why do we and they and then we can craft overarching goals and specific objectives and then the inventory, tremendous tools and competitive advantages at our disposal. that's the beginning of developing a policy and strategy. also important is understanding the assumptions under which we have to operate, assumptions as you mention, the limits of our

competency the system we have, but also what-under our competitive advantages and very importantly, it's very important to acknowledge the degree to which others have agency and authorship of the future, and recognize the interactive nature of competitions. so i think we skip a lot of these steps in washington. we tend to rush to actions that we're comfortable with already or we tend to try to fit everything into a military stovepipe or a cylinder of excellence instead of recognizing the real competence come widths integrate our efforts. >> the design approach is exactly it and it probably does mean -- you articulate this. you talk about identifying and respecting the agency even of our adversaries or competitors and as well as enhancing the agency of different groups within the out itself, which means rethinking the entire process as you suggest later in

the book and i'll come to this later to be nonlinear. we're so linear right now in our thinking we just follow these historic paths and none of that covid has shown us none of that works linear thinking we knew covid was coming he we knew there would be great pandemicked. we thought in linear ways and weren't ready. >> right. and the models were wrong and we misunderstood big packets of the problem. we had to learn and adapt. we weren't as agile also we needed to be. think the words i would use we have to emphasize is the ability to coordinate and integrate efforts. we are a federal system. we're a republic. and we're not going to have strong centralized control and we'd be terrible at it if we tried. we have to coordinate and integrate more effectively and with the private singer as well. >> so, in short form, leaving time for questions at the end,

so world war 1 and world war ii changed europe and it future forever. he the enlightenment was safe, social and cultural prowag saved those two warsened sure the stabilization of europe, and yet it looks like people are no longer interested in the maintenance of this alliance, and the maintenance of this western alliance, and to good or bad. i know the answer but how bad is the nonmaintenance of this western alliance? >> it's bad. the situation in and the pros pickets are not as bad as we think. i thick there's a growing recommendation that we in the free world are in this together. when you look at the aggression of the chinese communist party, this wolf order diplomacy and there's nothing leak the prospect of death to focus the mind, and i think that in the west, within europe and win europe and the out, the transatlantic relationship, including now the united kingdom separate knock at the european

union and still culturally and in terms of prims and values connected to the continence, i think we recognize now we're in a competition. that's the first step. we have to cooperate together to build a better future for generations to come and i think there's growing realization also we are in this crisis of covid, the recession associated with it and a crisis of confidence as well, michael. >> one thing you introduce in the book very well i think and very clearly is this rndw, russian next generation warfare if hold crimea because of their successful implement indication of those methods of comprehensive conflict. law -- fare, social disruption, political disruption, cultural disruption, social media messaging, interruption of democratic processes and even done a number of those near our country and other countries. so the question on rndw if

that's what the enemy is using why are we not countering it with the same approach or undermine that approach? short answer. >> we're starting. to we're getting more adept at this. when i say we it's the u.s. utah government but the u.s. government along with allies and partners. there is a lot of great coordination going on like minded countries that doesn't really meet the eye. we need to become even better at it. you look at the contrast between russian's attack on the 2016 election and their lack of effectiveness 2018 you can see effects that are defensive measures have had and then also some changes in policy that have unleashed or cyber cape capabilities. it's important to use your compelstive advantages. conduct law enforcement investigations that are important not only for indictments and the sanctions on these groups like internet

research agency, and -- what i call war far, it's law-fare. >> it's law-fare, right. we have been able to pull the curtain pack better now and express the kremlin's activity and it's the betts disinfectant, and which i call the -- many call now cyber enabled information warfare against us, which is part of this overall campaign of political subversion. >> one thing i kept coming back to in my mind was this notion of your writing this book with the u.s. still remaining a the soul super power on the planet and then he remember the lost big sole super pour on the planet was rome which has conflict, social disruption, weaknesses, collapse, people being killed on the floor of the senate, the

transcribe bounds and others -- tribe begun and the pro counsels and the councils at each other's throats and then the demise of the entire empire. any worries about our empire? >> well, i wouldn't call us an empire but i do have concern about the free world overall. i think that what you're seeing these days is heart 'king in connection witha much higher degree of international cooperation. you look at the reactions that recent aggression give the chinese communist party and that is brought together india, australia, japan and the united states, how to work together with even more partners on that particular problem set, and then i think the relationship with the eu, with eu countries, with the uk, it's getting stronger as well, and if our free and open societies work together, especially i think from an economic perspective, japan, the

eu and the u.s. constanting together, it's really going to be tough to beat and i think that that's the pest -- best shot -- >> i'll skip around here at built. so, you use a great quote itself you know your enemi' know yourself you need not fear the result of a hundred bats if if you know yourself and not the enemy for every victory gained you will suffer defeat. i'm thinking to myself, so, we do know russia and they were defeated by us. did we know vietnam? >> no, we didn't know vietnam. and this was the topic of a previous book i wrote. and -- [loss of audio] -- >> too we know china? >> i think we're learning more but china. i think what had this specific

view of china. we defined china in relation to us and how we would like china to be and we had this -- attitude we can change china witch welcome china in the international community, they'll play the he rule and liberalize and check their form of government, but of course that wasn't the case because we underestimate that he degree which ideology and emotion drives and con trains the chinese communist party in particular. we all know china's anything put monolithic or homo jean -- homogenous we have to tissue end the communityist party and the chinese. >> in the 15 largest-to-china and self of them many time and we have a lot of activities, hundreds of thousands of american organizations, candidate, universes and other working in china, working with the people, not working with the government but working with the people and with the economy, in

a lot of ways. do we know iran. >> i don't think so. i white in the book, our policy toward iran as missed two big aspects of understanding the behavior of the iran yap'ingtime. the revolutions won. this is ayatollah hoe main -- >> i thought that was something the way you but from multiayatollahs. >> this is an element of this -- a theocratic dictatorshipment the second fact its that iran has been fighting a proxy war against us for four decades and so we tend to focus on a street

issue. what is iran doing in iraq or syria or lebanon the nuclear program and it's-under pointer to understand the challenge he holiesicly and put together a policy and strategy that unders the full range of this particular challenge. >> certainly if we'll take thed a -- i found it interests you're a general, a writer, a philosophyer, thicker and you brought other lot to pear. my son ryan was in afghanistan six or seven times on nation-building projects, working on projects with the u.s. agency for international development while combat operations were doing and he told me how tinge it was to have the military and civilians all working together in the annual -- actual art of nation building and told me temperature odd to kim blessty -- complexity. we had a gps locate for so i would know whether to get him.

hi was a civilian out in the field. so what put nation-building he go in and we eliminate the taliban threat through combat arms, we becomen damaged in a more successful way than all of the british attempts fighting in some sense the same groups over time, yet we have innovate built a nation. -- we have not built a nation yet. what your thing put that part of what we do when we undertake such project inside. >> obviously has to be the people of that nation who build a nation. i think often times we go in and try to do too much ourselves. in the case of afghanistan we neglected this very important task of consolidating military gains to get to a sustainable outcome the. and then after that neglect we realized it, then we dumped too much money, too much resources into the country beyond the capacity of the country and it was really sensitive to traditions, history and the

culture of afghanistan. >> all those things you just mentioned are knowable so the military this to protect, defend and defeat the enemy. protect our ate -- assesses and defeat the military and working with others to try to build the country, same things in vietnam at the same time as you in the and as you wrote pout, yet neither were successful by the means -- anywhere year the level of investment. they didn't produce the kinds of results. so is there some other way to do this? >> yes. the way to do is -- a make sure next time we don't go in under the illusion that the war can be fast, deep and efficient and cake the george approach and

leave on a high note. otherwise you have 0 consolidate. doesn't american turning afghanistan in denmark. >> it was a raid. one last quick question. i've dropped the other ones off, i thought your quote of keith alexander. the greatest transfer of wallet, i'm really not -- it's get for general alexander to say that but how do you defend against that? it's like we don't have the right rules. i notice you kept the middle east as a strategically important. why is it strategically important goaling forward we moved the american economy away from the region, reliance on that region, increasingly that will be the case, saudis and others are investing future

economies so all kinds of things going on. you talk but. in quick form why are they still strategically important. >> problem in the middle east don't stay in the middle east. and this involves your expert form most jihadist. there's a cycle of ignorance, hatred and violence and that sectarian conflict is perpetuating ignorance. how many chirping going to school? and then that ignorance -- [loss of audio] -- people in they part of the world want to go to college and can't. >> then it's easy, among that population, devoid of hope to foment heat tread of the other and use that hate dread to just

violence against innocents and that per pest waits ignore -- perpetuates ignorance. that cycle has to be present. >> they have the able to destabilize all kind of things and that is at the threat. and to attack all civilized peoples. the greatest victim of jihaddist terrorist are fellow muslims. they've determined to commit mass murder on our territory and the europe and elsewhere as a principal package of war against all civilized peoples. think these organizations are more dangerous today than they were on september 10, 2001. this has a lot to do with them just being ordered of magnitude larger in terms of people. the they committed the mass murder take of 9/11.

the al qaeda, the isis, the various groupen, alumni of those organizations are larger, more possible, get technological available and trying to get access to me most destruct tv weapons in the world. it's important to work with partners in he john to make sure the groups don't gain the strong and they can then us -- then us again on the scale of 9/11. >> you bring in antoine, scientific way or warfare you quote, he say what is required a holistic approach that does not seek to isolate open systems put an prepareds their environment in profound inning cremed. that is a profound thing to understand. enough open systems. the notion of understanding these open systems. you can't isolate things and cut it off and think that it will

solve it. so, how too we design a national defense system, including a military and other things. has to be more than the military by the implication of the notion of an open system. there's economic, cultural, religious, social, military, all kinds of things. where would you start? to make something like that happen. >> i think you have to start at the national level and pull together speier disciplinary communes to under the problems but these have to be poem. people that understand the complex causality of events eved phenomena. these have to be people who are intellectual to a certain extent and practitioners as well. and then understand better how to operate together and how to apply these capabilities. dipmake efforts, cyber, economic actions and it can be done.

it can be done if these teams of civil servants put also trueing on academy use and the private sector coming together around the problem sets. >> doesn't seem to be easily implemented yet. i know the military is trying to do this a number of new centers, a number of new initiatives, things related to new kinds of warfare, new kind of conceptualization, future command. you were the part of helping to conceptualize these things. how do you allow the military to keep itses -- esprit de corps and culture and open that culture and engagement to others? >> i think a way to do it is education. i received a tremendous gift in the mid of my career, i got to go to graduate school at the

university of north carolina, obtained a degree in history to teach history and i think it's -- this is the adult education model. in the military. we have it already. you have alcohol length experiences as a young person and then educational experience that allows you to reflect on experiences and prepare for future responsibilities and to learn, to learn about life, about in this case for me, military history, and which i felt quite relevant to my career. >> it may be that flag officers and senior field grade officer inside the american military are among the most educated, most acutely both trained and educated individuals in our entire society. then outside of the military, though the awareness of the military and mill -- military culture goes down quickly there's a disconnect. how would you solve that. >> i think we have to allow people to move more nudely and

easily between the approve -- fluidly and ease by ten at the private sector, military, and academia. personnel policies that make super ease you to do. i if somebody wants to contribute that has a certain expertise in military or government agency of some kind, we ought to be able to welcome them in at a mid-career level and allow them to move back and forth. this is why i think the -- [loss of audio] >> a lot of people made lieutenant commanders in the nave ya because of expertise in civilian life and brought in as part of the teams and made stuff happen across all dimension dimensionalities of world war ii but we deposit do that anymore. >> absolutely. the ceo of general moat temperatures ran the industrial mobilizeddation effort in world war ii. i think we have to do it because what we're seeing enough is these threats -- you mentioned russian new generation warfare but i describe other pernicious threats. they operate not just against our military north just against

our government. they've operate against our private sector and you see that in academia as well. we have to be better educated if i hope the book will help people understand better the challenge wed face. >> i think it does a great job doing that. the last question before we turn back over to cole, you got your mcmaster four resolutions of-in here, one, the nsc much deliver optionality. you have to understand more of the nature of the problems-the-s, three, you need all government involved, not just the military. and, four, no linearity. assume quantitium forced. these for resolutions they make like perfect sense and so then i apply this to covid, i'm like we daytona -- we daytona do any of

them. i have to assume that somebody decided that global pandemics ontario national security the. >> this the -- this is the difference between planning and implementation execution. a plan -- you have a beautiful plan, but if you can't imminent it, it's not going to be effective. and -- the seven ps, proper prior planning prevent piss poor performance. >> we under i think what it would take that we being the u.s. government across multiple administrations, starting with george w. bush who had tremendous forsythe help -- this the power of history. read an historical account of the 1918-1919 pandemic and this after anytime. the convened this national security team and say we have a big potential problem here and neat to get after this. i. >> if saw the speech that he fav

and he outlined what we should do and that is floating around because we daytona to those things. >> also what we did i we compromised ethe six-si for effectiveness. we profit efficiency in supply -- broadcast efficiency some supply happen the problem with ppe and farm soviet union cals of reply chained that were fragile, overreliant on china good we didn't stockpile. over time -- probably do this begin if hope we don't. after this pandemic we'll hopefully not forget the lessons. >> the picture is good and i think the picture is fantastic. i think the book is a stafford honest assessment where we and are i think your prescriptions, this notion of a scientific way of warfare, breaking the cycle, the resolutions for the national security council, very significant contributions. one last final question.

what is strategic empathy? >> strategic empathy is the ability to view these complex challenges and opportunities from the perspective of the other. and it's -- >> ed aer sergio, chug especially adversaries, rivals and enemies. the ante do it, strategic narcissism the tendency to assume what with do is -- decide not to dials do is of decisive to the outcome and engage in wishful thinking that turns into self-delusion this i borrowed free throw a great history union. written a book called the of the enemy which he introduced this phrase, and i think it's immensely important. number of these challenges are conducive toward a linear progress. there's a continuous interaction with many other actors including average rivals and enemies and complex environments and you need an overarching policy and

strategy put the strategy has to about nextibility in implex indication and -- flexibility in imimplementation. >> i read a back on the bookshelf at a house that my wife's family owns and i was an army history book, and that was britain by an army historian during the vietnam war it and was nothing but hoe hoe which i men's life, and he said hoe he could minimum is the equivalent of george washington. and at the end of the become he said we don't understand these people we don't understand who this person is. we don't understand anything what we are involved in and you could u.s. see it army report 99-66 and i have to read and i remember being profoundly affected by the notion of our lack of understanding, this lack of strategic empathy.

and ceremony glad you were able to bring that out. so i appreciate that. so, cole i don't know what we do next. open up the are in for questions or not but general, thank you very much. great poock great to have a hundred to talk with you and i appreciate all that you have tune. >> lepresident crow, thank you. a privilege to be with you. >> cole are we opening up to questions or you want me to keep going? i have all this to go off of. >> professor crow, general mcmaster thank you for joining us. we have some user submitted questions.dr. crow you can good wives you have or scroll through and look at the ones submitted from our audience. >> those are -- i'm looking at some of them to right now. take a quick look.

here's one i think you have already addressed a little built. here we're sit here and china is moving forward, two gold are epermanenting -- global economies are remembering and there's -- it's like we're playing a hockey gave with no rules the chinese are allowed to check the americans without any penalty. there's no penalty box, et cetera. so if you had three things you could do -- i'm drawing phenomenon from the question -- three things relative to china. >> i would start on china's forms of economic aggression and work together as we are but i would step up this effort we japan this he eu and others to demand reciprocity. in connection with access to chinese market, the chinese

access to our market, and then also reciprocity in checks -- connection with listing on our exchanges. we should treat china like any other country and demand those standards, make them -- make good on the promise they many when the joined the wto to play i i be the rules. the second is to strengthen military partnership inside indo-pacific to ensure that china is unable to use this combination of cooperation and coercion to create servile relationship with countries and engage in the largest land grab in history in the south china sea, there's a military dimension as well. the third thing i would recommend is more introspective. take advantage of our competitived a slappings inch braun battlegrounds i argue we should turn what the chinese

communist party turns sees a weaknesses in a stretching freedom of expression and free freedom of the press. free markets and rule of law instead of a -- the rule of single party, and it's strengthening democratic processes, in a meaningful way. the way that senator john mccain advocate for his entire career. i don't think that anybody is culturally predisposed to not wanting a say in how their government, for example, and that doesn't mean that we should go around trying item pose jefferson democracy -- impose jefferson democracy but those who want to reform we and he rest of the free world should support those efforts. >> spending of senator mccain, ambassador mark grown the new director of the mccain institute and asked what are you most proud of from your days at the nsa?

>> i'm most proud of the shift and approach to china. i thought we put this process in place that you have mares d summarized, but really to make implicit assumptions that often underpin our policy and strategies, explicit and challenge them. that's that's what we different with china and implemented a bipartisan, i hope a bipartisan, nonpartisan shift from this cooperation and engagement to the recognition we have to impede and re-enter some critical arenas of competition from which we have been absent. >> one question i'm going to sort of modify at bit. that was sent in. as you suggested, president bush focused on the risk otherwise pandemics, the their clone na,

this is less deadly, very contagious and very impactful. we had the ebola incident and the military of the united states was heavily involved and asu involved in the ebola experiences yet for the reasons you sergeant we sort of weren't ready. thistles not the last pandemic, there will be a pandemic now within every five to ten years cycle is probable because of the biocomplexity of the planet. so, we can't go through this again and so how do we ensure that when we learn michigan, it sticks, and whoever happens to be elected president of the united states -- i'm not comment us about the present president. i'm talking about the office. can't say, never mind. i don't believe in this. how do you do that? >> well issue think first of all you have to actually study this most recent experience, the

shortcomings and our response and really learn from them. i've been 0 disappoint loud partisan the issue has become, and so what i did is i asked for volunteers of students at stafford stanford and we have a city which we'll roll it which is less beyond learn from the covid-19 pandemic and what we can do get how to this pandemic -- >> might be one of those students. >> she is, actually, could doing a great job of the task force. what the method we used was pretty simple. we just interviewed people across the public and private sector who had a central roll in responding to the pandemic and asked the what went well and wrong and what do you recommend and sip the size those -- send the synthesize in this board we validated what were in the plans three key tasks.

stop a pandemic before it starts. thank you chinese communize party. went do that on this one. be need better global surveillance and better response. he second is you have to million a's a biomedical response i mentioned supply plains other, impediments and where we cooperate mobilize as quickly as we could but the under one rope enineffective coordination, integration, sharing of authority tatetive -- authoritative data between the government and public and private sectors because we have the hybrid health-care system. that's number one headliner, coordination, integration, sharing of data. the third aspect its innovation. biomedical innovation for therapies and for vaccines. think we'll come out okay on that. because there's been a investment across many years in that area, and you're seeing that now. this is from the u.s. government, the gates foundation, others who have

contributed -- >> at asu we received a lot of funding barta and darpa so wore developing a device you spit it in, tells whether or not you have coronavirus or not, covid or not and then communicate witnessure cellphone, green light, move ahead immediately. and so or nearly immediately. it's a function of the infrastructure of scientific investment we have. so, cole, how are we doing for time? >> we're good. we have 15 minutes left if you want to fill that time however you want. >> so, here's a tough question, and i'm asking you this as a former general officer and the role of a military and 308 politics. one his eninner asked we have this election and whoever is president said i'm not leaving. >> they don't get to say that. what is brilliant -- our

founders were brilliant. i think they were brilliant. they were flawed, our republic as always been a work in progress but at our founding the asked each other, what the worth thing that could help and many of them lived how to or parent odd grandparents lived through the bloody wars of the 17th 17th century in england, and what -- george washington's grandparents fled the english civil war and he had very much in his mind the specter of a man on horseback. oliver cromwell who would undo our democracy, and had in mind the danger of factions, read political parts and how partisan we have become and how they. lead to violence and divisions in our society. juan way to make sure that our democracy can survive is to separate the powers. the executive branch has no say in a secession of dot. it's only, it's only the government and at the judiciary who has a say and so i'm not worried about this.

when people speculate pout the role of military that's damaging all of us have a responsibility to keep that bold line in place between the military and our government. nobody elects generals. they're not account able to the people in our system. and so it is very important for to maintain civil control of the military and important for politicians on both sides not to try to drag the military into partisan politics. what bothers me these days are these dueling lists of admirals and generals. i have these guys signed up for me. eave -- my list is longer. i think that i respect the right of those retired flag officers to sign up or do whatever they want, stay whatever they want but i think they have to recognize that could come with a cost and serving in our military should be rewarding, challenging, fulfilling, for you no matter what political party you're from. nobody cares and when your fighting in combat you're not

look to go man or woman next to you've saying what is the color of their skin, rpg, political party. you're all in it together, you respect each other, bound together by mutual trust and respect and become a family, back family where the machine or woman next to you is willing to give everything, club including their own lives and we have to remember that as americans and we got attacked only seemed 11-inch, al qaeda didn't attack rubbles or democrats. they attacked americans and we're becoming so divided its incumbent, our family, university to come together and restore confidence in who we are as a people, what we can agree on maybe before we talk but what we disagree on. >> so, my -- a question from afghanistan asking you your views about the peace accorded with the taliban. i'm no -- when read but a the peace accords i'm like, i

remember reading in churchill's diaries, his first engagement actually in combat was on the border of then india, now pakistan, and afghanistan, and what he talked but in terms of the nature of the tribal warfare there and the other things going on in that part of the world, and so just vary, very complex. and so the question do is you think the taliban and their regal allies, including pakistan, which you write about, are sincere in their commitments and they'll cut ties with al qaeda and other terrorist groups and can we get broader in a sense positive evolution in the region in are we moving in the right direction. >> absolutely not. think it's an utter disaster and we and the afghan people may have to pay a much eyre price. this is the ultimate in strategic naar -- incarcerate shrimp conjured the enemy we

wanted instays of the enemy that exits. thats no bold line and he knows this, he's he understand the brutal rule the taliban inflicted 0 the afghan freeman from 1996 to 2001 and the afghan people don't want this. we partnered with a smile minority of odious people who have inflicted grave harm on humanity by sponsoring al quite and are brutal. thes. athlete are people who acknowledge -- don't acknowledge any degree of human rights-especially women's rights. the question what is power look like? is that mass executions in the soccer stadium every other saturday, every other girl's school is bull dosed. we made a tremendous mistake in partner will the taliban government spiff the afghan

government. they're seeing we beat the world's greatest super pour, who are you to negotiate with us ump you have nothing to bring to the table and trying to dictate terms for power sharing and al qaeda are completely intertwined. it's a fact. and i could go on. it's in the book. all of this is in in the book. it's frustrating. think that this is the perfect example of strategic narcissism at work. >> so, singman lee a report fresh radio free asia and has asked, too you think north korea will show some sort of bling here in -- before the u.s. presidential election to influence the election? a bling being some kind of missile action, missile threat, missing test, additional threats, target threats, just intimidation, whatever you want to call it. >> it's more likely after the

election. i think what kim jong-un wants is get to the previous efforts to dedenoor cleaningize and the prove blow vacation is testing and then we clamor typically, can we talk to you? and nor korea feigns indips and then payoff to the regime just for the privilege of talking with them. then there's a long drawnout often frustrating negotiation that results results in a weak t that looks in the status quo, dent change anything, and then sets north korea up to break the agreement and repeat the cycle. health not do that i think is what we should resolve to do. after the election there will be likely a provocation. much like in 2016 to 2017. a period of very high activity for the north korean regime. think it's an immensity important issue, not going away

am big question we have to watch is is the regime getting a little more fragile now? you had kim jong-un apologize to south korea, which is something unusual. he has been disappearing for weeks at a time we think maybe covid-19 has been the best mechanism to enforce u.s. security council sanctions, and also gives a new class emerging in pyongyang, a class of sort of a emerging middle class who has benefited from the corrupt authoritarian system who has more to lose than in the past put this is the world's only hereditary communist dictatorship and they've defied predictions of their collapse for many decades jew. >> a strange artifact of a 70-year-old war. in fact it's a world war ii artifact unrevolved. so we have innovate talked about africa. maybe we'll make this he last thing we focus. eye was in tropic last year and

i was in ghana, upcountry other and other parts of ghana, working on different project wed have going on there, and what i noticed unbelievably was everywhere i went and i walked into very impoverished communes no, rounding water no sewage treatment, but there were octoberer fields and field hockey and all kind of other sports and every single kid i saw was wearing chinese uniforms that had been bought by some local chinese business with chinese mandarin lettering on the african team an inning lig speeching african company with unbelieve investment at the level of microbusinesses, microlening and so in other parts parts of the world that i've been and other parts of africa, it's the same thing. and it's like we're there, we're working at university level.

we're doing projects and making things happen, and that is about it. i didn't see a lot of other american influences there. so, when you think about frick with a billion people and unbelievable economic potential and unbelievable complexity and security threats, my son has also been in nigeria and also in the congo, working on project where american interests are being advanced. what is your thought about agriculture i think we have decided not to take the comprehensive approach that the chinese have taken which is economic, political, social, financial, cultural, all aspects. we're sort of other than that. and so what is your thinking about agriculture that's the final question. >> chinese eave he dote voted a mastiff amount of restoreses so africa. we have to think of africa on its own terms and respect the african people. an economy with a tremendous

promise am youth pop population that given the opportunity with education and economic growth and opportunity could be incredibly product disfor the world. also great dangers as bill and think that china exacerbate thursday dangers the support for authoritarian regimes that stifle the freedom of the people. i think zimbabwe is the post-everrer child for that in connection with china exporting molls of author tearn regime and enwest virginia in africa at large measure for extractive reasons. they need to hule their economy and wants to dominate advanced manufacturing in the emerging data economy and global economy and at the expense of others. the nigerian parliament recently passed aes luigs against chinese influence there's a big aspect of this that has to do with the

interconnected issues of energy, environment, climate change, health security and water security. we have to look at these interconnected problems as interconnected and work with african leader and the african private sector to help the continent succeed because all those problems don't respecter border. we're saying china talks a good game on the environment, but they're building 50 to 70 coal fired plans a year in africa, an example in kenya, a coal flied plant the biggest carbon emitter in kenya right next to a unesco world heritage site. we have to call out that active and be part of the solution, advocate for conversion to lng. as a bridge to renewabled fostering the broad range of solutions that are required to address that-the food security

and food and water supply chain and so forth. so there's a lot we could. we left-hand doing a but it's a big continent. you can get lost there china's investments as you have identified are massive, and they're largely i think aimed at building survival relationships -- sure vile relationships withsome journalist are calling a new form of colonialism. so i think our position all to be let not compete with china dollar for dollar. our investment private sector invelocities and i think tack the approach mat mark reid he would be a great person to talk about this in a subsequent session. his vision for re-inventing the u.s. approach to aid is -- has tremendous potential, and i thinked inned to amplified and implemented in multiple administrations to have the effect ensyringessed when he was the director our usaid.

>> a great book. i hope it's doing very well and it's i think provocative in the sense you have been infect bid the stanford design logic and have a number of design pathways thank you for the chance to talk but the book and look forward to continuing our discussions on other things and thanks for connecting with the mccain institute and helping us to have these kinds of discussions get out to as many people as possible. so thank you for being here and, cole, i don't know what we need to do to sign off but thing you would like to say at the end here, hr. >> ing in except thank you. a privilege to be with you thanks for your great work little arizona state and the mccain institute as well. and mark green my friend. thanks. >> coal, up to you. >> thank you for joining us and everyone in our audience thank you for joining as well. our next session of our book talk seize will be on tuesday, october 20th, with mark salter

talk about the luckiest man, live life of john mccain mod ratedded by senator joe lieberman. thank you to again very much for joining us with this. >> booktv on c-span2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. sunday, at 1:00 p.m. eastern, from the southern festival of books, journalist matthew van mental health are talks about his book, deep delta justice but a civil rights case which helped to reaffirm the right to a trial by jury in most criminal cases. and author stephanie governmenton, and then at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "after words," law professor john wit talks bus his book american contagions. epidemics and the law. he is interviewed by lawrence

goseon. watch booktv this weekend on c-span2. quarterback. >> here's a look at publishing industry news. interesting in sell thing trade division to focus on educationing a publishing. not considered one of the big five publishers they had $180 million in sales in 2019. a longtime executive editor at grove atlantic died at the age of 85. miss pickham played career he key role in the creation of -- in the wake of britain's second lockdown to mitigate covid-19 cases, many of the countries authorized have promoted #sign or four book shops to bring attention to independent book stores the deal toils steer book buyers toward local book

shops by providing signed block playeds that's united states strong week for print book sales, 9 and a half percent the prizes are begin be the it literary publication. to authors of nonfiction, fiction, and young readers books, and includes $5,000 to each win -- $50,000 to each winner this is winner this year was for michael smith, stains is high, life after the american dream booktv will bring you in programs and pushing news and watch our past programs anytime at booktv.org. >> watch "in depth" with author and chair of african-american tieds yesterday eddie glaude junior.

he wrote bin begin, james batted win's america, exodus, democracy in black and an uncommon faith. join in on the live to our conversation wither phone calls, facebook comments texts and tweets, sunday, december 6th december 6th at noon eastern on booktv on c-span2. in... ... i would like to thank all of you for coming. we'll have a spectacular time today we have remarkable author and book to talk about her before introduced let me to it a couple housekeeping items.