it was far interesting stuff in the book. >> .. will there was an

opportunity for the nation to imagine itself otherwise. where the country had an opportunity to leave behind the realitycynd how to organize our society and that each of those moments the country double down. and we saw was some call a backlash. we saw instead was an ongoing betrayal. what we think about the post- reconstruction. and a lost cause and that anglo-saxon and what it meant for the united states and the world as a betrayal.

think the mid- 20th century the black freedom movement, law and order and the tax revolt in california, we need double down on our ugliness and here we are facing a chance to we imagine ourselves. if our history is any indicatio indication. >> has there been an arc of progress? >> of course. my life is not what my father's life was and his life is not his father'ss.. so what does it mean to suggest we live in the afterlife of jim crow is to suggest there has been and indication of change and i think one way is look at american history ofan democracy in the believe that white people matter more than others and that is the matter of the

material condition that is with the disadvantage. host: what should we know about james: baldwin? >> goodness. it's a pleasure for me to call him jimmy but i will most known him 30 years now. what should we know cracks a couple of things that he is an extraordinary example that when weth think about being born in harlem and coming of age in the aftermath of the catastrophe of the great depression and willing himself to become the world's greatest writer as he put it when we step outside of the expectations of ourselves we

talk revolution. and then the second thing is courage and his willingness not only to speak truth too power and to make that real but his courage to risk self-examination in public and vulnerability. i interviewed angela davis , she said he was out there by himself even writing the second novel after he will go tell it on the mountain to embrace even though he was critical of black power continuing to bring critique on american society is a black middle classss, his courage is something we should take but also his commitment to craft

and discipline so all of those things come to mind. >> what about self exiled? >> what about a transatlantic commuter moving back and forth. on one level, it's hard to live and i can imagine was particularly hard for him but the daily experience and the disregard and then need to require the distance so that you could say something substantive about it. it's not so much in exile but a kind of space that gives him the distance to understand the complexities of the american ideology. when you are caught up in it

is very difficult to say and act in such a way to give you the elbowroom to bring serious criticism. baldwin needed that distance and also some of us cannot afford to leave the country we need to establish the relevant sdistance to have something about these consequences and when they are in operation. host: as i look into the ruins with the election of donald trump and the ugliness that consumed my country, asked myself what do you do when you have lost faith in the place you call home cracks that wasn't the right way to put ithe i never had faith in the

united states and the strongest sense of the world. >> i have never been a patriot. and what that word means. i always had this is an easy relationship with the tradition of understanding black america and those at a particular angle to america self understanding. but at the same time there is this aspiration animates the black radical tradition and a more democratic way of life and are just way of being. so what happens so with the space and the possibility when you begin to feel that rage

joining with the deep-seated doubt it becomes very difficult to hold one - - to holdug on and struggle for those democratic possibilities have never felt at home in this place but to feel like the metamorphosis coming to that realization and it's hard to pick up. host: when you think about w e-b deboer azores stokely carmichael or malcolm x. where do you place yourself? >> i've never been asked that question.

i am always dealing with my rage and always on the verge of spilling over. and then this love. this is why am so attracted to baldwin as a figure because he stands in that space where red one - -nk rage and love with the convictions so where i stand is not so much between a black nationalism or revolution or liberal the typical way we render our politics in some ways i spend betwixt and between. i am not a liberal of course but there is a sense that

malcolm brings a voice to my rage and for me to be courageous and doctor v king is the hope that i have a level heart and somewhere in between. >> and the 2016 book democracy in black, you write obama was supposed to be more. he was supposed to be different. we should've known better nothing obama said confirmed the believe he was a progressive savior. he is what he has always been. >> i got in a lot of trouble for that one. i'm trying to say that we green framed that in that election cycle. we made him what we desired m mos most. we made him the antiwar candidate in some ways the avatar progressive politics

and in some ways he jumped in front of the grassroots movement with black lives matter and occupy wall street and a sense of the antiwar movement and the sense that barack obama became the object. so we displaced our hopes and aspirations and he told us in his second book who he was exactly what he would do. he was very explicit that he was liberal in the vein of the clintons in some ways. we wanted him to be more than just a simple. i still remember my reaction and thinking oh my god this could happen and then we were confronted.

host: eddie glaude what is the importance of moss point mississippi it is everything. i found myself when i first left home to go to college and tried to imagine myself and more expensive terms in my hometown. and then from the paper mill so listening to the blues every weekend because my mother and father kept blues

on the radio on the weekend. and in some ways the gulf coast the saltiness of the air and the seafood and the rhythm , it finds its way on the page and in the way in which i think. it took me a while to come to terms with that. and it is everywhere in my work. olst: in your book you talk about running away at 16 to go to college. why? > my dad is watching but it was hard and was an exacting

presence in some ways and i looked just like him. i had his hand and smiled and his anger and i felt like i needed to get away to survive. think i'm really sensitive. and could scare you with the layer. and i think i needed to get awa away. and he understood in his own way when i asked him can i go to college? i had to get his permission. we were at the kitchen table he said i know what you are doing. don't ever thank you will not need me. and lo and behold i lost my scholarship my sophomore year and without question he took a second mortgage on the house to pay for my college.

so like jimmy, jimmy is very difficult it hard on himself in the early days of his writing but by the time you read the later writing and get closer to his death he understands more my father and i our love is deep. host: do you think your parents share your philosophical and political thleanings? >> i hope so they constantly comment on what to say on msnbc. absolutely. and how i see the world is shaped by that household may

tell the story we first brought her home in moss point and the police drove by in the cruiser and my dad said yes i own edge. it is mind when the neighbors aside he would take up the flowers he had given to the previous owner my father said what you doing? he said those are my flowers he said no i bought this property they are mine inme the neighbor in the back of the home or someone shut out one - - on out the window and my dad responded in kind through the magnolia tree that you protect

your dignity and sanctity at all costs. but you stand up for what is right. even though i felt scared at times in the clear that comes that you and with that age of injustice that's i want to tell myself. host: has marked for one - - moss point change? >> yes. absolutely. at one point we were are bustling little town our high school produced all of these amazing football and basketball players as a young high school student walking into our cafeteria looking for our nose guard.

we b had the brothers, generation after generation that made their way to the nfl. now if the town is quieter some grew up and left but still has the best food on the planet to serving getting your master from temple university and phd in religion from princeton professor which books are about religion and why. >> when i left i went to princeton to work with cornell west so i did mine a phd in religion and the voice been ntterested in politics and in princeton with emergent ethics

and politics. is the second theory political department, i always thought about of religion the broader question of african-american politics and because i worked with cornell west and jeffries doubt and they are philosophers although he is a religious historian. myself bridging the two areas to think about philosophical questions historically and politics with that contextualization so that was my point of interest so my first book was about the exodus story early 19th

century and the short introduction in the uncommon place. these try to give some indication to how i think about african-american religion from a pragmatic and historicalo perspective. it has everything to do with my training and everything to do with the tradition out of which iy come after american protestants and specifically the understanding of american lives. host: is christianity important to you personally>>? >> sure. absolutely. i was born and raised on the coast i grew up in the

archdiocese and went to see peter's so i grew up in the justified tradition and am is black church for the most part and then going to morehouse and with those extraordinary pictures and then trying to find my own way in terms of my religious belief i came to understand these stories animate the christian tradition are critical to how my see myself as a human being. and the stories offer insight what it means to be in the

worl world. so i would say that the tradition matters but i come back to my own. host: i think it's in your book exodus you identify yourself as a john do we were just who was john do we and what do you mean by pragmatist? >> john do we is the towering philosophical voice of the 20th century. with this classical group that would have us to look for those mutations but then understanding the capacity of human beings to transform.

so there is a skepticism anti- foundationalism that has everything to do with the capacity to determine. so i i became attracted and still have the legacy of the pragmatism shaping the way of now last i was a student while he worked on that manuscript and julie was attractive simply because the western. go tradition but also with

being the capacity of everyday ordinary people to transform their circumstances setting the stage for sophocles. so what i have done is to bring american pragmatism across the railroad track to bring that. "tradition into conversation with an african-american tradition and the result has been my body of work. host: and your body of work is what we are discussing. princeton professor eddie glaude. his books. exodus. a shade of blue, 2007. african-american religion 2014. democracy and black 2016.

and uncommon faith 2018. the most recent book begin againes that is brand-new this year.

we began taking your calls and comments in just a moment. as chair of the department of african-american studies at princeton what is important is to have a separate african-american studies program at a university? >> i think it is absolutely critical because a conversation that has been maddow fruit different bibliographies that shape the body of knowledge to be transferred from one code to the next. i think about it offers an account of the world for the social ladder hand and the

vantage point of the onaditional work of people of african descent and to change the orientation and so what we think and as diverse is in a country as complicated were since history so that we understand from the vantage is still @-at-sign think about.

host: there are a few issues here the last couple of years would you come down on them? >> this is the place you cancel. this is the place where people feel suffocated the flashlight down here stand was a place

that was not welcoming to people like me but is grappling with that undertow. and i think the students and those that tos occur for the president's office as soon as he will push back to imagine

yourself those appraisals will come for all americans and that aspiration. >> we struggle with it just like the country. host: but the built-in environment of america reflects a racist commitment. but we need to see an environment that reflects what the next is so the idea that was college and parents can come although dean of the

colleges. now is named at the tony morrison at this extraordinary moment because you have to change what you see so imagine black and brown students with their faith and talk about his view that he doesn't think we were capable and you have to navigate that every single day. so that is the changing of the colleges it is wonderful. host: how is woodrow wilson treated now at princeton? >> truthfully. [laughter]

i think that is the biggest shift you have to tell the truth there is no way princeton can tell the story of us of power woodrow wilson. she is central to modern princeton would it be university it is without him what he did. but you have to tell the truth about what he does and who he was. i remember from my graduate school days, and basically he walks on water but now i can tell the truth you may understand the type of values you want to percent and then you have to ask yourself the hard questions does he represent who we aspire to me? does he represent you are? he is central to how we became instant.

host: and really off the subject but it is in my head and was his line of work a? >> he delivered the first man. he delivered the mail. every day. he did not take considerable tread the day that would give him a long weekend shows that means he has to see the test

it with the heat of mississippi an and. host: tell us quickly about your mother's. >> my mom is amazing.

can i expect they do come home and work at 4:00 p.m. and not come home until 2:00 a.m. myhoor approach but then just turning recently she suffered is still in the house he grew up and? >> r absolutely.

the measurements for go but tawhen you put in the cup and page let's hear from you know there's first i have a question. of the history which is an excellent so i think we have

heard about

the holiday banks in the state have the ownership to give it's a different story the driver

distraction some ways. but they also teaching african-american history but they also teaching african-american history.

>>caller: good afternoon. eddie glaude, eddie glaude, eddie glaude, you are so talented and deliberate. i have are watching you for while the snap one - - i cannot pronounce his name bad china has to include to along the line of how he is as well. tell me about the scam going on around the black lives matter version and to defend the police meeting how they tried to separate it is and also how is said? i remember he wanted to go out and protest with the church that situation.

host: we would get the answers what do you mean when you say the scam? >>caller: she is gone sorry about that. >> i have an idea. first of all thank w you for your kind words and asking about my son he is thriving and in california working for defend the public service in the bay area he wants to be a public defender of god bless him. i'm very proud. the first question i think she means the wayay it is scapegoated as the why of the slogan the way the police but

conservative centrist democrats and in conservative districts against the wall and this is the reason why you just heard president obama referred to it as a snappy slogan that was antithetical to the efforts and convince others to join in the efforts. this is part of an old game we need to reject. that is to say defend the tiplace we don't think of it as a slogan but a policy agenda but what does it mean for municipalities to have 60 percent of the budgets of the mechanics of the incarcerated state.

so with the d bad faith and to understand is to force us to debate which is defined by law and order. and we need to change that and move from law and order every human being deserves to be secure. it has everything to do with investing and mental health services and education. in philadelphia she called 911 her baby was having a mental episode and having a crisis instead of mental workers showed up we showed up and she had to bury a baby.

that is the crystallization of thegh argument right there. instead what we are hearing they are trying to go us back and we have to resist that at all cost. >>caller. host: to take anything significant from the fact mr. côte spent time in paris? >> i think that was a wonderful allusion to jimmy that there is a moment to get that requisite distance is important. but we can talk about that another time when they were trying to call for bird and then quick to talk about what

happened. and how the french treated the algerians and the like. we don't want to trade one for another and across the globe to be mindful of those people across the globe as well. host: this text message says please explain the relationship between richard wright and james baldwin. >> it is complicatedod. baldwin would not be open if not for richard wright. how he didn't make it through high school. another mississippi native. i cannot imagine what

evidenced itself the world himself to become a writer. and when baldwin could barely findou the resources there is aa reason why baldwin and with that community. in so many ways and to serve as a father figure and that's what he seemed to think and

the week can never say. host: i reside on the gold coast of mobile alabama. how has the pandemic affected your tops room and can you i she taught a course this mr mr. entitled african-american studies in the philosophy of race. we ended and that is an extraordinary novel the gulf

coast. and you have these experiences but also with their body language.

host: cleveland go ahead. >>caller: it is a black person's happiness and liberty is led get a efforts there is seen voters question going on and to be and with that

political reality is definitely impacted by that

and to understand the political the political organizing m it is only ignorant and to have and that democracy is achieved if we talk about the wealth gap the and have so

in reality it is not a result of having substantial so we will have to confront but also

we are if that makes sense. >> used a quotation from the beginning of. i remember whenever that sentence that it is important for now i am paraphrasing him but he rates the

reconciliation. he talks about the civil war with the 13th and 14th and 15th amendment and then the lost cause and beyond the compromise of 1877. we see the country double down on white supremacy and box have to bear that. so when we talk about compromise around the question whether or not we have a society predicated on the believe some peopleotot are more than others i don't want my son or his children to go through what he had to go through what i had to go through or my mother or father or. so he bears the brunt to reconcile with those voters and i keep asking the question

what do the trump folder want? why do begin to delve more deeply into the world that they desire and ask yourselves doing want to compromise with that? that's always trying to get at at that moment. host: 72 million americans for the trump election. do you have a general thought about those 72 million american americans? >> i do. the other seeing a large number of americans with the idea america must remain that nation that donald trump's shenanigans does want to separate from the republican

party with that shift in the country and that they are willing to be committed to there are other elements and there is the epidemic of selfishness and greed they are only invested for the stock portfolio. they are selfish to give up any stake in america the only concerns and with the

political class and they about extracting. that we are all self interested and if we have those three elements that democracy itself is in danger. and those 73 million of voted for donald b trump and that is thee difficult task for that biden and harris

administration. host: thank you for holding you are on with princeton professor eddie glaude. >>caller: thank you it is an honor and the privilege to speak with you. there are two issues i would like to bring f up to the first one is the constitution and the bible. this can be interpreted to mean anything he exposed the constitution that can be interpreted to mean anything such as if you himself. so if trump can important himself does that mean he can steal money from the treasury

where he could kill joe biden and pardon himself? it makes no sense. host: we will leave it there we have a lot of colors on the line line. >> it also reflects the idea that trump believes he is above the law and not accountable to the law and some old the view of the presidency the imperial presidency and we have heard the other arguments but i want to be very clear there's nothing to be glad about.

because of thompson competence. i don't believe in that idea. so i want to be clear about the critique of how the documents and dogma occurred be molded to fit go human beings are complex creatures and we need to understand them as such but nothing to discredit the last four years in my view go even and the acknowledgment that the country is broken. i still don't want to see that is something good that comes out of the last four years. host: quotations from the last two books democracy in black

and begin again about the us president. do we spend too much time olinking about reflecting or identifying with our politicalhi leaders? >> i think so. that's great question. when the microsoft call figures is ella baker key people to organize and naacp in the south in the executive secretary of the southern christian leadership conference where she opened up space with the student nonviolentnt coordinating committee and had a radical democratic politics is not so much on the leaders but on us

and to carry with it of every day ordinary people to makeev the decision of how they are governed to have a say so in the fabric of society. often we are so busy working order behind it to the bone we want to outsource that to other others. n>> we focus too much on the leaders and in doing so what democracy he required. host: about the writing and to

get to the page to write the stories running around in your head how do you do that. so that is one selfish question.

wewe would literally be shaking i've been trying to prove to myself at the same time as a little kid what you mean when you say you've been trying to prove that to yourself? >> i mentioned my dad could scare you with the stare and deposited in me early on a kind of fear and i've tried to prove

to myself that i'm not afraid and i think it helped me do this because i remembered being stuck in the writing so i just started reading them again and there is a kind of assistance before you can say anything about the'r country, you have to deal with you. when you are afraid you don't run from the fear you run towards it. so i think grappling with who i am freed me up to write the sentence that youg. are reading.

what is this moment in time and they are from camden arkansas. somebody you know? >> he is my neighbor. that's beautiful. i never tried to anticipate baldwin's work but this is a kind of hubris that i've tried. 7,000 pages worth, so we have to tell the truth about who we are. i remember as i was trying to write the book, and i remember

this in 2016 i just kept saying to myself they've done it again and trying to figure out how to bear witness to what that meant so part of the work we have to do i think in this moment is detail the choice and its consequences to not gloss over what we are seeing two name of the hatred n for what it is and the selfishness for what it is and not retreat into its delusions and comfort. whether you are arguing for a

living wage or pushing for an education system or criminal justicel reform we have to tell the truth about what we have done. that is the precondition ford beingrw released and to me thats the basic that i take from the ruins as he described it. >> the second question is when he writes the book who is the audience that he is writing to? >> thank you so much for that. we can lift each other up. so, the audience. the early books it's very narrow

so when you look at the edited volumes it's a narrow kind of academic community in a shade of blue was written on tour and the old state of the black union convention one audience i remember she said i couldn't get past chapter three.

so the idea is to write with a level of clarity to access the ideas and be able to engage with what i'm doing. whenever i feel like i'm moving off-center i feel i can recalibrate so she's the kind of general audience but at the end of the day i try to tell about what i want to read. soso that is three different kinds. thank you for reminding us of thatt question. >> littleton colorado you are on with princeton professor.

i was wondering if you were aware of a statement that mitch mcconnell made six weeks after obama took office and i hope i can get this out because it is so upsetting. mitch mcconnell said on tv that the republican plan was to destroy the obama presidency. his exact words burned into my brain. i thought it was treason but nobody said anything. it wasn't covered in the news or anything. the only thing i could think of whmaybe obama heard it and couldn't think of a way to work with the republicans and it's just been modified.

january 20th during the t inauguration republicans including paul ryan and mitch mcconnell and other leaders came up with that plan to destroy the obama presidency, and it is amazing that he could do what he could do. >> i think we got the point. your comment on that? >> we don't want to be naïve and we need to understand mitch mcconnell is who he is and has beento participating in the destruction of the deliberative body called the senate but he has been a central force in eroding the basic foundation for the american democracy.

obama unleashed all sorts of anxiety. his election. people talk about the tea party as being the result of economic anxiety and social data science shows it's actually driven by d racial anxiety. we know that over theea course f his eight years in office it spiked and we saw the intensity of the spread of the resistance andre hatred mobilized and resulted in the election of donald trump als but also mobild by the likes of which mcconnell. so obama can become an interesting sort, but a point of entry to understand the deaths of what some might call the backlash or the betrayal and mcconnell's voicing of that moment of the destroy the obama

presidency or to make him a one term president announced very clearly a political policy agenda that resulted in part. so we can't disentangle the two in my mind i appreciate your passion. let's understand it for what it is. >> as a scholar of religion what is your take on the division of the church between democratic and republican camps what do you see as the role of the church and its future? >> president douglas said they were right next to the slave

auction block and it's always been overshadowed by the holistic contradiction of slavery and white supremacy. african-american christianity comes into existence as the great theologian howard berman put it too remove the and understand white christianity. we can think about this that not only impacting the way that one experiences but the way that one worships what you have wear black people had to go. that the civil war happened before one bulletm was fired and now we see fast forwarding to today that in 2020, white evangelicals supported donald trump in extraordinary numbers

even with evidence of incompetence and corruptionru ad grief. we need to give the voice to the funderstanding of the gospel and that is for more just america. the short answer to the question is what we are seeing our historical divisions that have always been a part of the very dna to make themselves known (202)748-8200 in the east and central time zones, 748-8201 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones and you can send a text message as well my

question relates to strategies and position and so on. if you are good explainers, and ith appreciate that what about your influence and impact on political organizations like the naacp and civil rights groups.

so they can better represent the community at large because i know it is questionable how well they have done it to date. >> thank you for your question. i'm not sure if they need to listen to me. but i think that there is -- there are moments of connection between what we do in the academic world and what we do in the policy world. these lines are the boundaries between the two worlds. there is a deep suspicion of academics. richard hofstadter wrote a wonderful book so there's often a time we characterize they have no sense of how power moves and operates but that's just a kind of generalization. i think on the ground there are efforts to reach across.

i know what i've been trying to do in my own work is to write for a broad audience and explain. my task is to try to figure out how to put forward a set of values that we drive how we think about the policies. how might i offer a description in the current set of problems and languages that would reorient us and give us a different angle on the problems we face talking with folks across the policy think tanks and the like. it's not even but it is

happening. >> from democracy 2016, professor when i teach introduction to african-american studies at princeton they always begin with a quotation from alexis de tocqueville's classic democracy in america. it helps me lay out the stakes. what is that quote? >> it's coming fromat the chaptr on the races where he says now that i leave the matters of democracy behind, that is a paraphrase. thise is the most insightful wok we have and de tocqueville may take issue b with this in some ways he separates the twoi issues. i dealt with the issue of democracy and now i'm going to turn it. to my a mind, race is at the het of how we think about democracy. this is what makes jimmy baldwin

so important. i think he is perhaps the most insightful critic we have about american democracy and race. he is the inheritor of ralph waldo emerson and he offers us a different understanding. part of o what i am trying to do in that moment is get my students to see when you take thees studies class, this is in the subject matter. we are not trying to block this silo of identity matters more importantly, this has to be emphasized when you take this class you are gaining access to a particular vantage point.

i understand there's something about the writing that says what it means for me to be a human being in the world. the same thing i tried to do in this moment but telling my students you are in this class and guess what, by thinking about race and the way we are doing it, you are thinking about this stigma in the heart of this matter. >> wasn't james baldwin criticized as being a hypocrite because he had an affinity? >> as wrong as two left feet. it's how [inaudible]

it is a book about you love who you love. when we allow these categories to determine and block off the beauty you open yourself up. >> facebook post the evangelism is based on the indictment that there's systematic racism in the u.s. if it is so pervasive, howea do you measure something like that if it is the unequal economic achievement, how do you explain the high achievement levels and isn't the problem black culture

not valuing the nuclear families or the importance of education? >> this becomes exhibit a of the problem. part of the challenge for us in this moment is how do we imagine ourselves otherwise that we have to deal with the discourse that absolves the country of its guilt. so can you imagine at the heart of that is the condition is the result of their bad choices. in order for that to make sense empirically you would have to hold the view over time every single day. that makes no sense. remember i said earlier we have to tell the truth about how the wealth gap happenedd and about the way in which the policies

have generated a deep racial inequality in this country and instead what we find or what we hear is the ideology of the lost cause. that very formulation is in the kind of arguments used begin the lost cause so how do i respond toll that argument, first of all we have to just simply say it's true on a certain level and on the o other hand we need to go o the empirical evidence that they've refused to acknowledge. so, no matter what we do, no matter what black folks do on our own, we will never close the gap no matter how much money we save in this moment it will be almost impossible without the direct intervention and this is

all the result of policy. the last piece of legislation designed to address the deep systemic racism in the society was deeply flawed in its implementation. twelve years later reagan was elected.di america didn't become a genuine democracy until 65 to pass the voting rights act. i was born in 1968. my parents came of age in a country designed to reproduce and disadvantage for those who were not and to deny it is to become complicit in that. that isn't to absolve us of

making bad choices because we are human beings after all that you've got to tell the truth. and i can't tell you right now that that position is not necessarily held. the position that you just read is not someone that walks around perhaps with declaring he is a member. it's beingd held by republicans and some democrats alike and that's what we t have to address as clearly as we can and if folks don't want to listen, we try to build the america. >> do conservative students self identify?y >> some do but some are self-selected.

i hope then we could have that kind of exchange. >> his ba from morehouse college and his masters degree in african-american studies and his phd in religion from princeton. he chairs the african-american studies department atri princetn and has taught since 2002 and is the author of six books and we've got about another half hour on booktv. richard and hyattsville maryland please go ahead with your question or comment. >> first and foremost you are onee of the best interviewers in the business, so keep up the good work. you opened up with donald trump and the fact he gave his speech

reminded me of reagan when he gave his speech in mississippi and we know where we are going since then. i would just like to know if you've ever had a conversation with mr. coats and how did it go and lastly the statements you made about mr. obama it could have been a little bit stronger because you had to see him through the lens because he didn't associate himself so he had made it onto that great white boat to discuss and step away and lastly, i think that

going forward you said we are going to go to a darker place. and during the primaries, joe biden reminded me of the person that's had a coalition with all of those other great people at that time and when he got into his presidency they conspired. >> we are going to leave it there. we have four topics on the board. what he did last night is very dangerous. i don't think we've faced this sort of challenge of transition in this way.

we saw folks around him buy into the kind of lies and so what he's doing whether he's successful with it or not, he's deepening the sense that it would be illegitimate and that doesn't bode well to how we move forward and we will get to that. so lastt night, concrete evidene of the clear and present danger presented to the republic and i think i want to make that very clear. we have had brief conversations in passing online and by e-mail but we never really sat down and talked. i think we have a different

politics. that would be an interesting conversation to have i think about how we think about the culture and politics. so that is the short answer. in terms of the identity and politics i don't want to attribute the decision that went from the identification my disagreements are political. to me he is a third way democrat and i don't think that's the

answer to the scale of problems. in fact i would even go as far as to say they contributed to the environment and we could have that argument. i'm from the coast as you know and as a result i've been through a few hurricanes and what is so interesting is there's fear and danger and then you get the calm, of the eye. he said you know it's coming. we are in the eye of the storm.

the tail is coming. >> it is an honor. do you have a position on reparations and did james baldwin have a position i do believe there are always reparations, so that is myti question. thank you for taking it. >> i believe in reparations bute it can take a number of different forms. part of what i have been arguing is we need to understand racial inequalityty or justice and the remedies will have to be driven but we have to have policy decisions that speak directlyhao

that. it's going to have to be a much more collected effort to do that and that canor fall under the rubric but again it's all sequential. first you've got to tell the truth and then you can reconcile and repair. then it will be on shaky grounds and the repair will never evidenceen itself the next call comes from karen in detroit. >> thank you for taking my call. i've enjoyed watching and hearing you speak.

my question is what were the factors that led to the formation of the studies program at princeton university i know duringun the 1970s a lot of african-american studies programs were formed. i was present at the formation aof the one and was curious what led to the formation and how those have sustained over the years. >> they came into existence like many it has everything to do with theseha institutions you might talk about this having to

do with berkeley and yale and cornell as the universities and colleges arepe beginning to open its doors to black and brown folks and women they begin to experience pressure and demand of the universities the curricula that reflect the complex experiences of human life particularly western cannons and the like and so we need to see different kinds of institutional configurations across the country. princeton is late in the game. our department is very young. we just graduated our first african-american studies just a ago and had everything to do with the black lives

matter movement and with diverse student bodies and allies holding the university accountable and demanding in some ways it catch up and it's in that context it came into existence. >> to follow up on that, here is a text from a member of theological seminary alum. why didn't they named the woodrow wilson school after michelle obama instill of melody? >> the woodrow wilson and one of the dormitories one of the residential halls was named after.

so that's what's important. we will see how that happens. we have a couple of texts. this is tina in bethesda maryland which one would you most recommend people read? >> i read it from the beginning to the end it is the evidence of things i often teach no-name and

the straighinthe street publish2 alongside and i'm focused on the nonfiction. it's the first book that he publishes after the assassination and he's in a very vulnerable place and he is trying to grapple with the country's betrayal. if you delve into that book it will open up the book in ways that are fascinating so it is an important book and also important at the level of formal

innovation that will help you understand what he's doing later on. >> i just finished the early books those are not edited that addition was edited and found onguage. we always ask our guests with their favoritwhattheir favorited what they are reading. here were the answers currently

reading the way memorial drive the dead are arising, the life of malcolm x, consciousness is hardest and joseph conrad the heart of " darkness. any of those books you want to add a little mention to? to connect it to the gulf coast with us country folk as it were but at the level of structure it is a gorgeous book and beautifully written it's more than that and how it is the

anchoring metaphor and it's important for me to reach because often times we find ourselves looking back but we can't stand any kind of differential relationship to the past. like i didn't write a book about him, i wrote it with him and there were others doing extraordinary work. but i've been reading with them for the past six or seven months.

about half and half fiction and nonfiction you thought about writing fiction. >> absolutely great i have to give better. it's hidden there in the office. one of these days i have a story about my grandmother someone who lost her children to suicide and it is an amazing story. >> begin again, is that a fair and analysis? >> it has elements of the

tradition, yes. even though i come out of the tradition, i've heard the best black teaching in the world at morehouse and of course you not only hear the language in others but if you hear the language of the king james bible and the language of the church so you can't help but have thoseen moments. >> i want to acknowledge the text saying his favorite writing is no name in the street. richard is in little rock

arkansas. >> i would like to hear you talk briefly about how the students value education and in the historical context just talk a bit about that., thank you. >> it's hard to say. some it's the means to an end and we see an assault on the humanities and the disciplines that are not vehicles to making money or to a kind of profession as it were so we have some that

approach the transactions i want to say that upfront then we have those that the curiosity drives them and they are reaching for newse ways of seeing that makest more expensive trying to get the keys to the universe library and the curiosity is just so infectious. i had a student this semester the first paper was full of all of this jargon and i was like do you talk like this, no, so then we worked our way through it and then the revised version of the paper was just beautiful and brilliant in so many ways and that openness took over so there's transaction and then

there's curiosity. folks that understand they canag create art. so it becomes a moment and they are invested in this effort that extends beyond their own background or parochial beginnings. i love what i do. >> richard is in little rock arkansas. >> i'm a little confused.

what i was talking about is today professors have kids that listen to their cell phones during class et cetera. it seems to be degrading how they value education it seems to be going down. >> i wouldn't make that generalization. technology has always impacted how folks learn so technological innovation changes the way you learn math. i remember we had to move things i don't even know what they are called. now they are growing up with things and it makes it more challenging as a professor to keep their attention. they could be checking e-mails or lookingls at instagram, thats happening. i think i don't want to draw a

conclusion from the technological advances that somehow they value education. i don't want to draw that tconclusion just yet. in the larger sense higher education particularly is going to be changing even more radically in the next five years because of technology and the information that is available. >> that's always been a part of the transformation in the digitall humanities and range of other shifts and changes in the landscape. i thinkk more than anything, covid changes our lives. the landscape will be fundamentally different having

everything to do with a the resource disparity and how these change the way we interact with our students and we use the market language in the way it was the product of the students and the like so i think technology will have an impact as they try to figure out how to fulfill their mission in a post covid world. let's hear from karen in atlanta. >> first let me say thank you because you were with us this week. i lead the discussion on friday which had 500 people and there's one lingering question people

were grappling with. we w wanted to know what is your atstance in regards to this time we find ourselves in particularly as it relates to our white colleagues who are many of them for the first time excited and ready to do the work but are still looking to us to sort of carry them through that. we will get an answer in just a moment but quickly tell us about yourself. a. >> i'm the chief officer at the galloway school in atlanta and i worked in the summer with caroline blackwell who is thehe vice president of the national l association of independent schools and so he delivered the

most amazing keynote opening address to us and then also followed up with a brief discussion on his book and started making plans to do and eight or nine part series because there's so much interest and its relevant to what we do but we are struggling. >> what is the galloway school, very quickly? >> it's the only school in atlanta that actually accepted doctor martin luther king children f and was founded on te principles of social justice. i've just been hired for the first time i have been hired to

be the first inclusion officer. a. >> we have to leave it there. this is a phrase that you use ande begin again. >> this is that moment as one world comes crashing down. he was worried about the gilded age for american democracy and here a we are but the question s fascinating what do we do. i'm always asked the question by my fellow citizens what can i do to help with and sometimes it gets frustrating because you think i have to bear the burden so the first thing i typically say is we have to shift frames

on the charitable philanthropic enterprise. racial inequality isn't yours to give anybody. we have to build a different way of approaching how to build a more just world. the last opened up the answer to the question what can i do next. what is your perception of a more just world. whenever you hear that question we want the same thing you want so what is your perception, if you believe you work 40 hours a week you should be able to put table, fight for a living wage. if you think everybody should be treated equally under the law

then you should fight for criminal justice reform. if you believe nobody should go broke because they are sick then join for healthcare for all. what is your perception of a just world. if you answer the question honestly you will find yourself right in the middle of the racial injustice in this country. so part of the task for us is to ask, to make a choice, choose whether or not you will be a person that happens to be white or a white person. it makes a distinction. i have an to love a lot of people and there are those folks that engage in the ongoing interrogation of how race distributes advantage and

disadvantage and it will fall short of that the they are worko create a just world and then there's those that are created to the advantage on the line of who is valued and who's left out. where are youo going to stand. then act on it and let's act together. >> have you considered running for office? >> no, no, no. >> why? >> i love what i do. i'm in the classroom and i get to interact with amazingcl students every year as we

understand historical figures better and differently is there anyone you've changed your mind about? >> say that again? >> as time passes, we understand historical figures better and differently. is there anyone you personally have changed your mind about in history? >> you think about that for a minute. that's kind of an on the spot question. let's go. back to -- walt whitmn is that the answer, why? >> there's one moment after reading his editorial i saw him as a hypocrite but i had to figure out how i could come back, and i did and it's one of

my favorite books. >> yalonda in denver. >> caller: this is about obama's latest book. i was disappointed that in the light of the destruction of the ten to 20% of black america's ancestors that this chaos and terrorism and it's happened after the destruction of the government of obama and he seems to express pride in what he did to destroy the libyan government. >> host: we are out of time. whats specifically is your question? >> i was just wondering if you had any kind of opinion about obama continuing to be proud of what he did.

>> host: i will finish with a quote and this is democracy. in 28 and again in 2012, obama sold black america the snake oil of smoke and chains and joined bill clinton, carter and other men who presented themselves as people who would challenge the racial order of things. >> guest: i know we are falling short on time so i will fall back on my southern roots. .. >>.

>> i make so excited to be interviewing kevin i am to talk to about your work talk about how you came up with the name. >> i wrote a couple years ago about poverty strike in kentucky he gets a lot of journalist visiting it because