she was denied reproductive choice i healthcare for her childr. an mit professor and tech investor explores the impact social media algorithms have on public discourse on ections, public health and more pdefined more schedule information and booktv.org. or check your program guide. now here's a look at home grow extremists. >> welcome everyone. i am karen greenberg iirect the center national security. welcome to today's event. on t book i'm going to show you, home grown, isis in america. but before we get started today want to mention some sad news. in the world at the center on national security my world frank mead who is a longtime friend, advocate f an advisor to the center passed away on november 1f this year. we are going to miss him. and so i wanted to take today to sort of dedicate this

program to him. and to honor his memory. i think his spirit will be with us for a long time. and i just wanted to mention him gratefully here as he's been part of our virtual events upo this point. today's event as i said at the beginning is meant to celeate this a wonderful new book within amazing cover which is why it showed it. there's so much going on in the cover we could've just spent today talk about the cover. like what are all the little post- its. but we won. the author of t book that is with us today is shamus hues. he wrote this book with alexander and clifford. shamus isne of the leader counterterrorism exper in the country. hes been produci report after report for years both for congress and others. before joining the program for extremism on george whington

university which of the ncp national counterterrorism center before that he was a senior counterterrorism advisor and home security government affairs committee. there is an awful lot shamus should be talking about today are one hour. wanted to talk start with the book and go on. for ose in the audience please feel free to send your questis into the q&a and i will get as my into the conversation as i can. first want to have a conversation with you seamus a. verso wanted why now with this book? >> which is that the real hype in the united statesas 201 2015. we kept seeing cases i 2015 and 2016 with maybe some other things you want to mention it has been kind of a here and therset of investigations, indictments a prosecutions. from the height of something

wi over 50 cases a year we have now something like less than a dozen. is that he did the book now? were you thinking maybe the ark of isis in the united states at least in this inclinatioand the way we know it was something we can tell the full story of? doesn't conaway? or w now? >> gue: that's absolutely right. first the m say thank you very much for having me. karen you have been friend for a number of yearsd centern national security something i have relied o in their reports for years n. you put on a great event so it's an honor to be here. thank you for the kin words about frank it's an honor to be a part of the conversation on this day the reason we decided to put out a book on isis in 2020 is a positive thousand 15 is a story was notritten yet. just yesterd we had two new indictments a sealed in the district of pennsylvania. a huand and wife they were

sending money to family members t go join isis. so we read the book in 2015 we would not have told the full picture. it takes a long time to get a sense of it. and for about tee years may and my co-authors travele around the country with fbi agents, defense attorneys and family members and came bk from isis to get a sense of what actually mea and we say isis in america. it sums like a loaded term. we should not be alarmist about it. but it's also not insignificant. we wanted to wrap h head around it. and the only way to do tt was to take a stepack and look at it. so we looked a about 20000 pages of legal documents. i found a whole host that all got rejected appealed repealed again. we filed enough motions to unsealed docents. after bit of time start talking. in times past are more willing to talk about tt case in 2014 awhere the height of it. sophie wted to do it justice

so i didll of this. i will said the detail o these cases is quite impressive. not just the detail the cases themselves but the diffent indictments to one another and the individuals knew one another for virtually and otherwise produce aumber of things i had not realized in terms of the rationship with those piring those funding, thosplanning attacks. those indicted. it's action very intricate presentation imptant you have. but in the aggregate what did you learn? went to megan little more specific. at did you learn that surprised you when she got what you needed to get in terms of how to describe the isis terrost?

smacking the story of isis in america is ones and twos are not fours and fives. talk about a relatively small phenomenon of individuals, usually friends with some level of in person network but not a large network tha you'd see in large parts ofurope. i think that is t first take away. the second take away, you know this as well as i do. there's not a typical isis recruit for their old, young, rich, poor, black, white, does not really rhyme or reason to i summon join the terrorist organization for they all share the same ideogy and narrative but they com after it differently. in the ways they g to is completely different. the point you made he pled back the oon a little ill relators a bit more connection than what we give cred to. a young man in iowa is someh connected to a guy that's a part of the group of guys and rocco. at connection is usually made or social media. but sometimes are set in rson network likely sought minneapolis, st. paul where

the brothers, sisters roommates of kids that joint al-shibaab ten years ago were the one toame and joined isis. if you fear that you are very dirse and diffuse picture. >> host: one thing to focus on that not surprising, is the youth, how young they are. and the reason i bring that up as i would like you to compare thato do things. one is isis in europe. and elsewhere in the world. and two, white supremacist extremism and wha we are seeing now. we'll really talking in these isis cases of individuals who are barely in their teens. and often in the early 20s. >>uest: yes i believe that's right. i w surprised by the number of minors we have in our case study. t only the people who were arrested for criminal charges,

we had an individua that was arrested when their 15 tha was an outlier. st of the time you have a number of minor cases were fbi agents would dermine the did not want to bring a federal charge for it or perhaps they could not get to the nional security division of department of justice. but when you interview these agents they said dn't really wa to charge a 16 over terrorism i deny with them to spend 20 years i jail for that. the lack of tools and abili to do anything beside that is mildly concerning on my end. and also, think you saw an intereing trend now, particularly now, a stepup of state and local officials charging and state-level producing terror in newersey new york, f minor cases there is a jersey in south carolina for 16 year old got a gun charge of the state level, spent two yearsn jail got out it was charge againith terrorism when his a-tm for trying to join isis.

think that's aailure of policy too. you see these miners going down this path and not having options other than law enforcement. it's a concern that policymakers shod think about any real substance. >> host: i want to talk about that before go on. you've spent a lot of time thinking about couer violence, extremism, counter prevenon however you want to determine. ere was a period at the obama administration where there is government funding for this there were some robust efforts made. there are still a few things out there, buthat happened? we don't hear about the cde movent now. i'm sort of curious, what is your take on i we got demoted and the funds rit upper what happened? there's a couple reasons why. one the ser scope of the number of arrests in 2014 and 2015 forced to be created.

they cannot arrest their way out of the problem. there's an attorney interviewed in your consider on the table with a bunch of fbi agents they would get their weekly briefing of cases. and after a couple weeks he said i don't have enough lawyers to charge all these individuals are going t have to figure out a different w. you know, the obama administration did spent a lot of time, if they had really dug into it, you really talking about people putting together national straty. that is notoing to be successful. and t be fair, as a lot of ncerns, my civil rights and government overreach. you shouldave a national program to do so. i think there is some truth in that i don't think we need to have a billion-dollar program when

the numbers are so small. but the other day i i'm sitting across the room from a parent who is concerned about their kid and the only option i have is a rest or do nhing until they grow out of the phase, i just think that is a ilure at a policyevel. 's a failure of siety. we should have som level of offramp spray think we could do that creatively in a way thatoes not come across and where to go fromere? the obama administration largely ied with the trump administraon they change names it's the same program with less funding and less people. there's no bui-in advocates for this program. there's no advocates in the middle. i would be surprised if it real gets a shot in the arm

in the biden adminisation. maybe perhaps on aye supremacist antigovernment side. i think there is som room to do so. i don't see that necessarily happening in any really subsidence way because of isis and jihads in. one of the things is in the major ols of prosecuting terrorist is a terrorism statutes. in the strength of the terrorm statutes arehe link to foreign organizations. in terms of isis in your description of this homegrown phenomenon, she went to tell us about how it's different than how w thought about or not, about the international outreach of al qda? and actually about travel, training, as opposed to what was going on with al qaeda? and how much that has

changed? what is happed with the foign fighting phenomenon today? >> guest: that is one of the takeaways of the book pretty look at the 60 pluck a jump less cases there were public the vast, vast majorit of all been some attempts of attempts to travel or travel overseas. isis had a message and a projec project. they flipped the switch for american home grown extremts. they were drawn to that idea. so you did see a push on that aspect of it. the difference between al qaeda and isiss not on the message of the products but the people. isis has the ability, time, and space to reach out systematically to americans and groom them over the course of weeks and months to encourage and attack. think of a case in upste new york were a man when sue donnelly was reaching out to nether manith mental health issues abo the need to commit an attack and a nightclub in upstate new york.

this is an individual who i thin without sue donnie whispering in his ear probably would've gone a different way. were al qaeda would just put th message out to a megaphone effect. throw it out there and hope it sticks. these guys were much more one on onentervention trying to push the message a action. >> host: their virtual entrepreneurs. >> i'd try to make virtual enepreneurs stick but it's not going too. just call whatever videos those whichs virtual attack planner planners. there were six or seven indivials, the fbi deemed them the legn called the legion of doom very dramatic. individuals in a computer lab changing phones back and forth in systematically reaching out to americans for an attack. what would happen is, ty had a level of confidence, the

we-known british hacker who became an isis propagandist. americansould reach out to them. these guys in theegion would reach back and say you don't want to travel too hard. what you want to do is have an attack in the he that let's make it easy for here's an address of a military officer in your area. here's a link onmazon to the nike when using here's howou upload the video to behead the individualnd we will claim credit for it. so tse guys were not necessarily saying make sure you detect them all the america they were saying would be great if you checked them all? let's make it easy for you to do that. it is a bit of a handholding you look athe plotting, we found that more than hal of the cases involved at least six of the individuals in a legion. so onc those individuals are systematic killed by the department of defense and allied forces, that number dramatically dropped into

thousand 16. >> host: just sticking with ternational conversation a little bit, you talk about troopsn the region and contributed to the growth of isis would be chaos in syria, right? so just skipping forward to today and the announcement this week about the drawdown of troops, in the region, does it worry you in terms of a predicate for more terrorism? or are we in a different period of time? how would you weigh in on this switch i think we are in a manageme time. i don't see is have a clear victory but i don see us having a clear defeat. we were are a lot smarter than we were before. we have a sense of theetwork for isis now. a lot of it h to do with terviews with but law enforcement deatheturning foreign fighters. they get a sse of how they operate and how they've taken folks were able to targeted strikes in a way we had before.

is it always better to have folks on the grod to add intelligence and things like that? absolutely. i don't see an appetite in this country or even in our politil party to do so. i think we are probably going to see a similarhing to what we had in somalia where the occasional strike when you have intelligence, but not anything else of real sutance. i concerned really is, you just don't want to let these guys gw back up again. the fact that the had this territory, they were able to intake thousands of foreign fighters on a way no other terrorism group had history. you don't give them space, if they're worried about looking over their shouldervery day th's good thing for counterterrorism, right? it's a matter of playi it a little smarter than we he in the past. the one there's also the queson of the camps were individuals are living in

syria refugee camps. in some places detention camps, the sensef breeding ground for maybe new forms of terrorism,aybe for isis itself. to think there is a way to handle this problem and addres this problem? be worried about it? how do you take it? >> guest: i'm worried about it to full general dicalization, you get enough people in a room who believe exeme thought some violence could happen. but probably more important than that i worried about justice. in america we have had a pretty good track recd of bringing back, we brought back to thousand folks f courts of a system too that that's no problem. were able to do tt because we have the terrorism clause which most countries d't and allows for the collection of evidence and prosecution. th other thing franklys we have smaller numbers of citizens in the camps. it is one thing to ask the u.s. to take bk a dozen

people. it's another thing to ask the french take back 500. they just do not have the systems in place to do so. were dealing with a different set. it's easy when somebody comes back from syria joining isis was a bad idea what to pad guilty but it'suite another thing when someone comes back says no i'm not talking t. you can't really build a case on that. you are stu with the theory of you let some go. but i think the ultimateoint is we have a responsibility. our citizens fro around the world went to iraq and committed wa crimes and genocide. its incumbent on uso provide some level of justice for those victims. the best way to do that is through criminal prosecutions.

>> i want to go back to the issue of radicalization. that story is not ove a number of excerpts have made the with jihadist trorism. and radicalization of white national white supremacist. do you see these as crossover in terms of a message? obviously their messaging is different. but where do you see the crossovers it would you just say no these are sarate entities but we to look at them both may point had a counter extremism? >> there's a couplehings to think about in general. one tech companies have not caught up. if you look at 2015, 2016 timeame, twitter googled the light bulb went off and they decide to content meration. they push these guys off the rgins. they have not been the same thing with antigovernment oups. in relative free rei. reach out to local member

right now the other thing differt is that radicalizati which comes with movement there is an online dynamic. there is the large off-line. it is easy -- make it easier to load up a bunch of guys in a room to talk about how much you hate the michigan governor for vid larkins. you know, you try to get a dozen people in a room to tal about how good isis is, nine of them would be f units rate that does not happen with antivernment. so there is an ability to cruit and set up an organization easier whent comes to those ideologies. but the last thing i would mentn is we needo talk really about the mixing of

ideology. it is not a clear-cut as it used to be. in the good old days 15, 20 years ago i could tell you that i was an al qaeda guy, and thatadical that would be easy from the bucket. right now you're seeing this mixing of white nationalist is also inte whose a member who give a proud boy's meeting the buckets maket harder. the government really needs the buckets you can put resources against buckets. i can have a squad that is intel because we think that is important. but what happens when it mixes back-and-forth? analso comes full circle. how do you train up for moderation technology companies to understand the ideology in a way that's easi. >> host: one of things it's constantly talked about and think about deterring radilization and oer parts of the world is to talk abo the causes that led to that

radicalization. whether it's vlence whether it's discrimination whether it's once or the oer when you look at white supremacist in this country is there a similar narrativebout what nes these individuals to identify with but they terrorist group? and if so what is that narrativ narrative? >> guest: malicious is much more of a connection. for white nationalist, but i think it's reay online is on a roll. it has the coordination you haven't seen prior. a little bitf a different dynamic is on there. theres a general sense isis which is a sense of belonging. these are usually individuals

who are not particularreat with what they are and in real fe you want to be part of something bigger. what this white nationalism provides a sense of belonging. >> we are getting a ton of questions by think i'm going to go to the questions i will interject myself as ty make sense. one asks, i would like to know as an author i'd terrorism h do we hold accountable and more comprehensive way the women who inspired the men et cetera i'm going to consolidate the questions and shorten them. talk about the females. >>uest: that's really interesting dynamic. we look to the cases in the trial records the words and brainwashe come up a lot for judges when they sentence. men were sentence at a much higher, longer sentence than their fema counterparts.

i think t criminal justice system looked at the issue differently. they so women have almost secondhand i not have agey and the sprite when in fact we interviewed a lot of individuals who joined isis that were women. they knew what they were doing. they came in with clear eyes. think a good take away from that would be -- a good ample of that was woman from indiana who traveled with her husband and her kids to syria. she alloweder son to be in an isis video. she was all in from an outside perspective her defense attorney would argument cpletely off. sue and estes going to speak ofer defense attorney? speech it they would argue there's a whole host of asons including an abusive husband. we cannot discount that. but i would ao say you had the same dynamic for a mail

counterpart that came back they would not get six years. its a balancing. and i struggle with that to. as a father of young kid when i see kid that looks just like me i think to myself why would you ever put yourself in a situation that allow that to happen? there is a level of victimhood which i think is important. but also c be overplayed. smut on the other hand y follow along the lines, that is the kind of thing you could prevent, right? there is a robustou did not even have to count counter violen extremism. cult public health. whichs why i think the emergence of terrorism in all different forms and violence in all different forms it signifies maybe there other things going on we are not paying attenon to. i think some of this wk did try to flag somef those issue issues.

>> guest: the her thing i was thinking abo two is you can't think about this in a vacuum. let's take came back with forever kids. and the husband is killed, was killed in syria. sue have these four kids and corrective services. and if so what is that look like? are you trading them up on radicalization? for 6-year-old? there's a whole host of this we need to tackle. i'd say returning repatriated individuals to dozen or so, the overwhelming number who were not charged withny crimes were women. the overwhelming that were charged with women, i interviewed a number of them. i don't see them, they saw that as a moment o disillusionment with isis and wanted to come back to america. smut in aay it dovetails with criminal justice move generally. and what chances they have for

the future. >> one thing on the role of women thas important to look at is the outside role when they play online. a number of arican women were the key connectors for men to travel. and said they were the no's onlinearticularly on twitter to connect these individua to recruiters and sympathizers online to get them over across the border in turkey. >> host: one of the questions is whatan we do to prevent the radicalizion of citizenships of isis, white terrorists, the writer calls them american white nationalist first give us some thoughts. what are the memes of not getting to the point where we have to indict, arrest. >> guest: first off the that we have talked about not doing the success you're hoping for a 10% success rate for a win.

we set the bars we try to prevention program, failed and individuals were arrested it's a failure'm not sure that's the right way to think about the framing of this. in terms of what we do? i would get away from oad-based engagement. when i was in government, was on the bad hpen they put me on a plane i go to cmittee centered talk to three header people about the bombingn boston and how to read the next two guys from doing that horrible thing. : :

>>. >> io think it has changed over time. and there are books written about that in the way it has operated. about 55 percent in

performance and there was a tool they lean on heavily when it comes to terrorism. they would argue with and we use undercover agents d all forms of crime. but it did play a significant role in terms of arrest and you don't necessarily drive to laguardia and get on the plane the fact you buy a ticket but if you c't because the borders are closed now individuals are getting online you are still concerned and that's what he said the informant or undercover agent. that's a valid argument to have that conversation. where is that line between push and pull? it's one thing to say are you sure do you really want to join isys there's other want to say you really shouldn't. >> and here is where you buy

the ticket. and the defense on the prosutor would say. themook at that domest negotiation oversight with some right and left latitude and again my civil rights d civil liberty colleagues and the fact that i had to pull t to get people to talk to me about terrorism and counterterrorism those on a coffee shop or a bar. still don't have the full set of what isys looksike

not only the threat but how we do operations some of these are completely understandable dealing with national security it isncumbent on the democracy to he a show. >> and the chances? >> slim to none. >>ou never know. >> [laughter] >> theuestions are mounting why are we not debunking religion ideology it's very sy to do that to get people to know more about islam. >> the governments not well fitted to do so and i don't think they should. there is an issue that would hit you across the face as soon as you tried but in general the more poignant part the vernment is not well suited to do s

just will not happen so that it bomes our responsibility for society with the ngo groups. now there are roadblocks one is pending and if there is dedicated funding does that make you less eective and the most important one is why will y jump into the space right now? i invented one - - interviewed from the east coast to the set is soon as i talk to a terrorist i will be watch listed the rest of my life and there is an ea solution to provide a system of alerts. nobody will gme up at

laguardia because i interviewed a isys reporter i hope i don't get on the watchlist i have a business ca with that name is on - - but is not the same for ndom ngo trying to do his work. we can figure out a level of an alert system or at the very least, guidepost of what is legal or illegal two years ago we got a twitter dm of every complaint i had of women traveling because you wa to get arrested she wanted to figure out a way around it. i know well enough to know not too tha butomebody else who hasn't been around that's not a great idea. >> havyou seen any cooperation direct or indirect

with isis and the domestic extreme groupsn the right or the left? >> no. not really. so sometimes on the government side like the guys who were arrested in minnesota with the material support is they were selling guns to inoperave from hamas that was an fbi agent. so introduced him as the hamas agent bed the take away is one to bcaught up to the nature of the threat b they are generally agnostic ideology. >> if you get enough people in

the room extremist violence will happen. what about online? >> that's a good question especially with nationalism. a lot of talk but not a lot of action. and i treed the best i could and now i am done. that is what the fbi has to do with on a daily basi why is it a fullield investigation? they would say when at individual has connections are lookinto build a bomb. >> you have a sense the fbi with that domestic terrorism?

>>. >> i interviewed for the book and isys' antigovernment stuff. defined it easier of a case. and i would also say the temple for the cases so in 2015 you have fbi agents i was interviewing working 18 hour days not seeing their families for weeks now s i am right a

ttle bit more and it is a different dynamic. and another thing toook at is the charges. some in the fbi if the temple wadropped toouch so those individuals and gun charges or drug charges and then to let it build up. because you don't put the word isys. that's what i'm talking about en i say we don't have a full picture in america yet. i will say to my colleagues i'm still looking

it is incumbent on us as a democracy to share as much infoation and to get a sense of the nature of the threato put our resources against it. we $10million from isys and then fro white supremacist it is the number even? i don't think we know that. >> what about europe? >> theyre looking at 50/50 cases so that dynamic has shifted from 90 / ten at 50/50. th is true of most law enforcement coming at all angles now it's almost a little bit easier when they want to travel versus now which is ideology. >> how do you look at those tacks as a broader resuence with the muslim

popution? >> there is a different dynamic in europe and america. for t most par you don't have people handing out leaflets in times square. you do see that happen in birmingham. so the overt nature of recruitmenis different. to be fair in the us with some notable exceptions there are not extreme mosques how to opate if you wald into a mosque talking about isys you would be kicked out have to go down the street by yourself. there isn a level of acceptance there. there is a large scale a second one - - acceptance in

europe but it's just a little bit different than here. >> those tt have asked about the journey which you talked about before but in a different sense. this is something europe confronts much more th the united states but those who actually comeack to you see this as somebody that can be managed or turned around and i'm talking about europe now. >> europe is a management problem. the way that they travel and have conflict with sons and fathers of the conflict so in many ways the guys they go to syria they have a few days to do so but in america we are a lot better off becse most

th came back came back disillusioned. only one case we know abou where an individual came out one - - back and expresseand committed an attack command from oo going to drive to texas with his buddies to free the terrorists but mo come back disillusioned. >> a couple of the questions are the general battles states. are we plang catch-up? when it comes to is and other terrorist groups and i alsoant to further add, what can be de in violation of constitutional principles or the first amendment? >> largely we have done all we can mainstream when it comes to isis and al qaeda facebook and twitter have more analysts

than the fbi has agents working on content moderation so it's largely been moved to telegram wch is a higher level of encryption but it's not great. so that radicalization pool has shrunk so you can just stumble upon and isys recruiter on twitter like you could in 2014. so that makes it a little bit easiero stumble upon it but that mobilization pull d deeper on telegram so now those on tegram our true believer through and through only hearing the voices they want to hear and the is no dissenting voices in that conversation. so are probably in the best space we could be for the

online jihadist fear but i would have a completely different assessmenthen it comes to the mainstream site were still in the 2014 time frame for that. >> which means what? >> it is the wild wild wes just because enough people it isn't proacte against it a i sharehis view strongly i like the private multibillion-dollar comnies taking a role in the counterterrorism and that sets the standards and we should consider looking at that they would eat me for that but we have. so look back at jim clapper getting ck on a plane to silicon valy and then to

take down mo content that is andjunct station of your responsibilies. but we haven't figured it out yet. >> givinway too much power in the credit of too much power. so now we need a third voice citizens getting to weigh in but that'sor another conversation. where they are about to get a new government we think and those you have interacted with in the past. and tn how to go about this and is responsible andore

transparent so what is your assessment and with those news informts is importanto show that as here we will move in that direction to symbolically show that with a change of approach what do you think needs to be done? >> ofhose reforms i woun't have snt five years there i wouldn't tou too much but

the transparency that word be useful civil rights and civil liberties and i've be haing on that for quite a while. the other thing is the expansion of the role. right now in the statute look at intnational terrorism so don't go anywhere near the deep end but we should be able to go to the deep that as long as we set up a structure so the tools are available to share information with the fbi and dhs and the honest broker in between and then r dni this is an interesting time as

the need to ha a strong play or do we look at them as the gatekeeper? i'm not really sure ere they fall on it but that will be a great deba on intelligence reform post 2004. >> we have a bunch re questions it puts us in a very wed position because too much change is to belong the lines of what you are saying and so here's a question there

are a number of individls and how do you feel about that? i'm sure you seen the headlines in t article what i said not evenmerican citizen and then pefully deport them. why should we say any different than anybody else in the criminal justice system who had tten out of prison? always have a broader swath of crinal justice? >> a lot of them said versus

somebody who has a drug problem should i have my limited resources toward t problem than someone getting special tatment? i think we should talk abo that at some point but i'm not sure i bieve all of that. so crime had is a level o recidivism built into it and we have seen in limited studies terrorism is much smaller than the general crime population we have seen a f like john george who is arrested with the pro- hamas comments and when he got out six months later he was a pretty high level commander i would say and who knows? >> those that have gone post

isys they are charged with false statements with a fe an eight year and a good numb of them most of them are happy to move on reminds me somebody interviewed from new york i wouldn't say ed radicalized but i asked to join back up and he said my back hurts i'm too old. that's not disengage but and it is legal in this country. so one last thing i word look at it is here my overarching concern is somebody gets out of jail d commits an attack there are congressional hearings and the fbi rector says there is a convicted terrorist in the

short answer is you cannot have full-scale investigation they have a commit to the over from the public perceptio don't think they have the resources to put for women in a van and 24 hour shifts but i also think we have a coordinate so with the probation officer are not singing from the same sheeright now are they looking for religious? and what isis looks like that we haven't done in any real substance. >> so what happened to the programs othe mid- 20th century?

and the relocation program across the criminal justice and not just in terms of terrorist? and the category of criminals so are there more robust programs along those lines? >> i don't. largely the numbers are relatively smalle have 85 individuals and we spend that across 94 offices see don't have those largecale and he was t create that but ty don't want the heat that is involved in that so with no socialabric i don't know how

to solve that but i just know it is a problem. >> isn't really your expertise but it is in mind. you chose not to have those individual choices and then to bring those people here to make it happen and were there enough people in government who are still thinking that way but a possibility going forward? >> with ten towards article three courts. there is a history of being able to do so and the declassication system not

great but also not broken so we had the track record. am i hopeful? i don't think we scares easily as we use to because of the news cycle now whatever happened monday. so we brought back 24 people overseas who were in isys with the federal courts and through the associated press you n't have the giant press conference that we goso good at it now we take to british citizens and prosecute them in virginia and nobodsaid why did we do that it just made sense. so i am hopeful for tt but the remaining 40 or so with those fits and srts and information wrapped in together and it gets very dirty very quickly.

>> but i'm hearing from you at it could happen. >> yes. there is a chance. >> do you have any others to a add? >> theeal take away from the book wre not talking about large-scale phenomenon. it's interesting and the reason whyhe joint terrorist organization is equally complex so what we took away from it was relatively sma phenomenon and just had a perfect hand to recruit the unprecedented number of americans. so back to the ages of short-term and the occasional one here and there but were in a different place than we we ten years ago. >> i think everydy should read this book o what is

coming up at the center and we have a few new interesting on the podcast and with reports coming out in one is a report on terrorism on theessage and america and it is like what you are saying with the take away but not what we imagined it to be and to some extent whe there is more and comparing countries around the world next to see taiwan, italy and brazil soe can do a lot of research.

i think everybody should read the book of thank you all for your questions and have a safe thanksgiving. we will see you on the other side. thank you. >> thank you

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