i think it is indicative of a culture in which we want to simplify and eliminate all gray areas and just have our way and beat the other team as opposed to solving problems and figuring out how in fact we come together ...

>> what about all these little and she miss use his book out on - - homegrown one of the

leading counterterrorism and terrorism experts in the country producing report after report for congress and others. and the deputy director and the national terrorism center and before that with homeland security and government affairs but i wanted to start with a book and go on. for those in the audience please feel free to send your questions and i will get as many into the conversation that i can but first i want to talk about why now this book? so the hide the basis in the united states 2014 and 2015

but with the destruction of the caliphate and has been a here and there from the height of something over 50 cases per year that there was less than a dozen so the mark of isys that means it hasn't gone away. >> thank you very much for having me with the senate for national security it's also an honor to be a part of this conversation. so the reason to focus on isys

and two new indictments of husband and wife that were sending money back so i don't think we would've told the picture pressure takes a long time to get a sense of it and for about three years me and my co-authors traveled around the country interviewing fbi agents women to get a sense of what it means with isis in america. that's a loaded term. we should be alarmist about it. but also it is not insignificant. so to wrap her head around and the only way to do that was to take another step back so we had 20000 pages of legal documents with a whole host and appeals and appeal again.

filing the motion to unseal the documents. and then people started talking. and time has passed then you were at the height of it. if they wanted to do it justice we wanted to give it distance. >> i will say that the detail is quite impressive. but how the different indictments in different individuals knew each other individually and otherwise. there are things i had not realized and those indicted he

was surprised to to describe the isys terrorist? >> i think the story of isys in america is ones and twos and not fours and fives. &-ampersand level of network but not a large network like you would see in parts of europe. in the black and white and rich and poor way they get is completely different in the point you made about that there is more connection than we give credit to that a young

man and i was somehow connected to a guy with a group of guys over there but sometimes a in person at work like minneapolis where they joined all shabbat ten years ago and they came to join isys. >> but then talk about how young they are. and isys in europe and with the white supremacist extremism. and those that are in their teens and in their early

twenties. >> i was surprised by the case study. not only those arrested for criminal charges but those arrested for 15 in charge of material support most of the time a bunch of minor cases the agents will determine they didn't want to break up that charge through the department of justice. but to say we don't want to try a 16 -year-old for terrorism and want them to spend 20 years in jail but i think that was mildly concerning on my end. what you saw was an interesting trend particularly now was a step up state and local officials so you see terrorist charges in arizona and new jersey and new york for minor cases of 17 -year-olds in the case of

south carolina a 16 -year-old was charged at state level spending two years in jail got out and then charged again charge for terrorism at 18. that is a failure of policy you see these minors going down this path and not having an option other than law enforcement it is a concern that policymakers should think about with any real substance. >> so you spend a lot of time talking about extremism and prevention. and there was a period at the end of the obama administration with government funding and some robust efforts were made. the what happened? you hear about that movement now so i am curious what is your take? we got demoted in the funds

dried up? >> a couple of reasons. the seer on - - the sheer scope of arrest focused and force them to be clear and they could not arrest the where the problem so they sit around the table with fbi agents and get the weekly the briefing of cases and then after a couple of weeks to say i don't have enough lawyers to charge all of these individuals we have to figure out a different way so that was a function. the obama administration did spend a lot of time but if you believe dive deep into it really just trying to implement the national strategy. and to be fair there is a lot of concerns with my civil rights and civil liberties colleagues say to police

extreme thought and you shouldn't have a national program to do so and there's some truth to that we don't need to have a billion-dollar program but at the end of the day if i would cross the room and the only option i have was arrest i think that is just a failure at a policy level and to society we should provide some level but i think we could do that creatively so doesn't come across the civil rights and civil liberties concern now where do we go from here? the obama administration came into revamp and change names with terrorism prevention it was the same program with less funding and less people and

then to say you're too soft on terror on the left they say it's government overreach with no advocates in the middle. i would be surprised if it is the shot in the arm with the administration may be on the anti- government side there is some room to do so but i don't see that necessarily happening in any real substance with isys orgy hard. >> one of the major tools to prosecute terrorist has been the terrorism statutes. but that is a link to foreign organizations. and in your description of the homegrown phenomenon of isys talk about how it's different and talk about the international outreach of al qaeda and if this is actually

about travel and training as opposed to what was going on with al qaeda and how much it has changed and what is happening with that phenomenon today. >> that's a take away from the book if you look at the cases of 2015 the vast majority have the attempt to travel overseas so isys had a message and the product to flip the switch for american and extremist ideas that they have a difference not only the product with the people isys has the ability and the time in the space to reach out systematically to americans and groom them over weeks and months to encourage

them to commit attacks think of the case in upstate new york where a man was reaching out to another man with a mental health issue about the need to commit an attack in a nightclub in upstate new york. this individual without whispering in his ear probably would have gone a different way but al qaeda just puts the message out the megaphone and hope it sticks they were much more one-on-one intervention trying to push the message. >> they are virtual entrepreneurs. >> yes. i tried my best to make that stick but it's not. there was six or seven individuals in these were individuals in the computer

lab exchanging phones back and forth with the tax and what would happen is they had a level of prominence and americans would reach out to them and to reach back and say you don't want to travel is too hard you want to commit an attack in the homeland to make it easy. here's the address of a military officer in the area and a link to amazon on the knife to use and here's how to upload the video. so they were not necessarily saying attack america but attack them all to make it easier for you to do that. it is handholding and in fact looking for the book we found more than half of the cases involved at least six individuals so once they are

systematically killed by the allied forces than that number dramatically dropped in 2016. >> sticking with the international conversation , you talk about the drawdown of troops in the region and continuing to the growth of isys with chaos in syria. so skipping forward to today and the announcement this week of the drawdown of troops in the region does that worry you as a predicate for more terrorism? >> we are on the management side. i don't see as having a clear victory but also not a defeat. we are a lot smarter than we were before.

a lot of the network is the interviews law enforcement did training foreign fighters they have a sense of how they operate now and taken folks so we can do targeted strikes in way we hadn't before. it's always better to have folks on the ground and intelligence. absolutely but i don't see the appetite in this country with a political party to do so. so please see a single thing happened where the occasional strike with intelligence but not really anything of substance. my concern you just don't want them to grow back up again and the fact they have this territory to take thousands of foreign fighters in a way no other terrorist organization had in history. if you don't give them space if you're looking over your shoulder every day that's a good thing for counterterrorism.

so just a matter to play smarter than we have in the past. >> also the question of the camps the individuals in the refugee camps with a sense of waiting around to respond to terrorism for isys itself is that a way to handle and address this problem? >> one is a agenda on - - a general radicalization concern. but more important than that i'm worried about justice. in america we had a pretty good track record firm repatriated back and the system to do that no problem. and that met most countries

don't allowing for evidence and frankly we have smaller numbers of citizens. so it's one thing to ask the us to take back people it's another to ask the french to take back 100 and to do with a different set of books. most individuals with some exceptions you can bring the case and they are hardened believers is easier when someone comes back from syrians as i had a really bad experience joining isys was a bad idea. it's another that you cannot build a case on that so the ultimate point is we all have a responsibility to those around the world committing

more crimes and genocide and its incompetent and the best way to do that is through criminal prosecution. >> that story is not over and with a comparison between radicalization to the jihadist terrorism and radicalization of white nationalist and supremacist is that a crossover and the messaging is different would you say these are separate entities? >> there is a couple of things to think of and one is looking at the timeframe twitter and google and the lightbulb went off and then push these guys

off the margins with the antigovernment groups so i can reach out to our member right now the general question of radicalization is not the thing to have right now but what is different is that radicalization there is a large off-line so it is easier to load up the punch of guys on how much you hate the michigan governor over covid lockdown and the other were fbi agents so there is that ability to recruit and ways to

make it easier with those ideologies. the last thing i mentioned is to talk about the mixing of ideology. it's not as clear-cut as it used to be. and now that you see and then to make it harder because then you can put the resources and the squad that does until because that's important but what happens when it goes back and forth? and then come full circle how do you train up at with that ideology.

>> and constantly talking about in other parts of the world talk about the causes leading to the radicalization. whether violence or discrimination. and with that individual is to identify with terrorist groups and what is the narrative if so? >> and with that militia and white nationalist and that is the online space around the world.

and with a sense of belonging. these are not particularly grea great. and with that sense of belongin belonging. >> we are getting a ton of questions. and how do we hold accountable and more comprehensive ways and then to consolidate the questions and shorten them. >> that's an interesting dynamic and brainwash as a

sentence and then men are sentenced are longer than female counterparts. so the criminal justice system looked at that issue differently and saw that as almost secondhand when we interview a lot of individuals that joined isys that were women. they knew what they were doing but a good take away from that that a woman from indiana traveled with her husband and her kids to syria. she allowed her son to be in our propaganda video and was all in from that perspective and her defense attorney would argue i am completely off.

>> and we cannot discount that. but in that same dynamic they would get six years. so it is a balancing and why word you put yourself in a situation level of victimhood that cannot be overplayed. >> and to call it public health. and with the american emergence the reform as a

signifier the weird thing attention to and try to flag those issues. >> you can think about this in a vacuum. and isys was killed in syria and child protective services and what does that look like? there is a whole host of things we need to tackle those that are returning are repatriated individuals. there are 2000. those who are not charged with any crimes and those that were women i don't see them as having recidivism.

and with that disillusionment and coming back to america. >> in the way it is with the criminal justice system reform generally how we sentence criminals and what chances they have. >> with the role of women is the outside role they play online so a number of supporters that were the key connectors for men to travel so particularly on twitter to connect these individuals to recruiters and sympathizers online to get them across the border in turkey. >> one of the questions is what do we do to prevent radicalization of american citizens like isys white terrorist? what it is that not getting to the point?

>> so first off we have to assume we are not doing 100 percent you are hoping for 10 percent success and we set the bar the intervention program and failed i'm not sure that's the right way to think about the frame but in terms of what we do i would get away from broad-based engagement and i was in government and something bad would happen i would talk to 300 people about the bombing in boston and how to prevent the next two guys from doing that come i felt good that was not my target people those a show to talk to intelligence officers are not the people need to hear my message. really we should be doing one-on-one intervention.

i have a kid i'm worried about spouting off and who do i know that i can get him back into society? who is a mentor i can throw in? or the roadblocks and then moving on with his life as he gets older. >> we have a few defense attorneys if they heard the word recruiter with a of in a different direction what is the value of the informant with those legal issues of that is entrapment? does not create violent individuals who suspect the undercover informant? >> what should the rule of law enforcement be and what hasn't come? >> i think it does changes over time. and books can be written about that. look at the 220 plus cases of criminal charges and about

55 percent worth undercover agents and informants and those are tools they relied on heavily when it came to terrorism. the fbi would argue we use undercover agents in all forms of crime it is a law enforcement tool but it did play a significant role in terms of arrest. particularly in later cases you don't have that easy over drive to laguardia getting on a plane and that is an arrest but then you can go to syria because the borders are close know you have individuals communicating online and that is with the undercover agent any defense attorney has made an argument about entrapment. very few have one but it's a valid argument where is that line between push and pull one

of those off ramps are really off ramps that's wanting to say are you really sure it's another say you should enjoin and think about something else. >> and the defense the prosecutor would say in court why didn't you say it? >> there are some levels of restrictions look at the fbi bible with the investigation oversight guide it does provide some right and left latitude with the informant but again my civil rights and liberty colleagues would say we should add more guardrails to that. massey other take away from the book the fact that i had to pull teeth to get people to

talk to me about terrorism and counterterrorism i had to call in favors and get on the plane me to people in a coffee shop or in the airport i still don't have a full sense of isis in america looks like not only with the threat that how we do operations dealing with national security i think it is incumbent on a democracy it's a bit of a show of how we do it. >> and the chances of that happening? >> slim to none. >> you never know. why are we not debunking religious ideology? if it's impossible for anyone to know more about islam and mohammed then why are we going down this road? >> the government is not well-suited to do so and i don't think they should the

establishment clause that would hit you in the face that says if you try to do that but in general, the more poignant part is the government is not well-suited to do so you cannot make those finer points with a recruiter just won't happen so then for civil society where these ngo groups that can do that kind of stuff. there are roadblocks to that. one is funding. there is not dedicated funding and if there is it is government and if you take that funding does that make you less effective? and probably the most important now is why? why would you jump into the space right now? i interviewed the imam who said i will not do that because as soon as i talk to someone i will be watchlist of the rest of my life. there is an easy solution to

that to revise a system. nobody will jim me up at laguardia because interviewed and isis recruiter i have a business card at the same is not true for a random ngo in indiana trying to do this work. we can figure out some level at the very least a guidepost of what is legal and not legal to do? thinking back to years ago by god a twitter dm with every criminal complaint that i had of women traveling because she didn't want to get arrested she wanted to read the playbook and find out the ways around it. i know well enough to know not to do that. but if you are somebody else who has not been around that that's not a great idea, that

is asking a bit much. >> any cooperation between domestic extreme groups of the right or left? >> no. not really. here is the interesting caveat. sometimes on the government side that would be a good example like the boys in minnesota arrested for gun charges but they were charged with terrorism but they were selling guns to hamas operatives so he introduced as an agent because then he could get to him but the take away is one that the statue has not caught up to the nature of the threat but also generally these guys are agnostic with ideology. they are okay with joining up.

>> one person asks you commented if you get enough people in the room who are extremist it will happen what about online was social media? >> that is a real good question especially with the white nationalist movement a lot of talk and not necessarily a lot of action quite yet. i think it is a releasing of the valve of extremism to say i tweeted to the best i could. i am done. that is also the dynamic the fbi has to deal with on a daily basis. somebody is just spouting off for a full investigation? they would say when the individual has connections or when they make overt actions whether buying a gun or

moore's when you turn on the spigot spirit you get a sense the fbi has deployed agents away from jihadist terrorism and more to domestic terrorism? >> yes. a number of agents i interviewed for the book don't work with isis anymore it is antigovernment stuff. host: talk about the similarities or differences? >> yes. they find it to be almost easier because these guys are so overt jihadist were a little bit better at hiding a little bit they don't see you need to do that quite yet but i would also say that the tempo for the isis cases has significantly dropped. in 2015 you had fbi agents say

they were working 18 hour days and not see their families for weeks now they say i'm resting a little bit more. i'm still out there and dealing with the issues but it is a different dynamic. another thing to look out for is the charges. some would argue the tempo hasn't dropped too much. but what has changed is taking cases earlier on we are asking or looking for false statements or drug charges and before that to lead it build up. so they will say there's always been a dozen cases that's what i'm talking about when we say we don't have a full picture yet and it will take a while to do so.

so i will find the cases and it is incumbent on us to share as much information as we possibly can if only with a sense of the internal threat to put the resources against it we have $100 million crisis in 200 million for white supremacist or is that even? i don't know if we know that. >> what about europe? >> the head of interpol said they are looking at 50/50 with their cases with white supremacist so that dynamic has shifted 90 / ten at 50/50. that is true most law enforcement it is now coming at all angles.

is almost a little bit easier when somebody makes the overt act to travel versus what they look now with ideology. >> what about the recent attack and syria is that a resurgence or the approach to the larger muslim population? >> we can't discount that but austria also. there is a different dynamic in europe and for the most part in america you don't have people handing out leaflets you did see that dynamic happen in birmingham so that overt nature of recruitment is different to be fair in the us with some notable exceptions is not extreme mosques talking about how great isis is.

if you walked into a mosque talk about how great isis is you would be kicked out and have to go down the street and play by yourself. there isn't a lot of acceptance there. there is in europe but just a little bit different than here. >> so what you mentioned in a different sense europe confronts much more than the united states and those that are coming back in custody, how do you see this is a something that can be turned around to be vigilant about and i'm talking about europe now. >> i think europe is a managing problem. the way that they travel had connections in the nineties with their sons and daughters of the conflict so they have a

few days to do so but in america we are a lot better off most that came back come disillusioned and disingenuous with their time only one that we know about with the planned attack coming back from ohio with his buddies to free a terrorist but most come back disillusioned. >> a couple of the questions are the general space. and when it comes to isis and other terrorist groups what do you see that can be done of the first amendment et cetera?

>> i think largely we've done all we can on the mainstream sites. facebook and twitter more analysts and the fbi has agents working on content moderation so it has been largely moved to telegram which is another level of encryption but not is as great so that radicalization pool has shrunk by that you can't just stumble upon the isis recruiter on twitter like you like my - - on twitter like you could in 2014. so that makes it easier. but the mobilization pull of telegram so those that are true believers through and through and hearing voices the

only want to hear. so i think we're probably in the best space that we could be for the online jihadist fear - - sphere and we are still the 2014 time frame which means is still the wild wild west you can do whatever you want if they stop you it's only because enough people have flagged it is not proactive scanning. there are cases to be had and i share this view very strongly i don't like the private multimillion dollar companies taking the government role of counterterrorism that we ceded the space to private companies to do so because then they set the standards. so we may want to consider looking at that like a public utility. i will just say it but i don't

like giving no space away and i think we have. just like jim getting on a plane to silicon valley meeting with eric schmidt when it be great if we took down content? that seems like an adjunct part of your responsibilities there has to be something more we can do but we haven't figured it out yet. >> and there are issues at stake in terms of giving away too much power so maybe we need the third voice which is the citizens and that's for another conversation. we are about to get a new government, we think. we will get a lot new people that you have interacted within the past a new dni, et ceter cetera, if you were

there and going to make a list of recommendations how to go about this that is responsible and more transparent, and is aware of these issues, what is your assessment? to say it is just another brand of criminal and treated that way? are with those uses of informants? is it important to show that that we will move in that direction to symbolically show that change of approach? what needs to be done? >> i wouldn't mess with that too much with the post- 9/11

reforms but it's been five years there but dni did reform a lot of that i wouldn't touch too much. there are a few things i would do with transparency that would be useful but they've been harping on that for quite a while also the expansion of the role of domestic terrorism. right now looking at international terrorism but not too much you have the shallow end but don't go in the deep end as long as we set up structures. i think the tools are available with fbi and dhs to

be an honest broker so i look at that significantly. so this is an interesting time with the biden administration and with the strong voice to coordinate the intelligence community with a friendly gatekeeper. i'm not really sure but it would be a great debate. >> we have a bunch more questions so we will follow up with that to say thinking about some of these agencies including dhs and dni. it puts in a very weird position because too much

change but then there does need to be some restructuring i think along the lines of what you were saying. what are the implications and these cases as a release from prison what is the al qaeda guide? how do you feel about that? i'm sure you've seen the headlines in the article and cases they say not an american and citizen but then an i.c.e. custody and then deport them? so i will assess and more printed way why should we be any different than anybody else in the criminal justice system after surveying the term? with a brighter swath of criminal justice?

>> interviewing a couple of probation officers for this book and they said why am i getting special treatment should i spend my limited resources toward that problem? why do they get special treatment? i think we should talk about that at some point are quite enough i believe all of that terrorism is a crime. that has our level of recidivism built into it. we are seeing this in limited studies that it is much smaller than general crime population so we haven't seen that much recidivism but a good example is the man in texas arrested for defacing the website with hamas comments and he got out six months later and got to be a high-level commander and isis that is recidivism.

>> maybe that radicalization of how he was treated? who know. >> it is entirely possible that the individuals that have gotten out a lot of were charged with false statements. a good number get out most are happy to go on with their lives. so it reminds me of someone in new york who was in al qaeda i wouldn't say he was the radicalize but he was just engaged asking him to join back up he said i'm too old. my back hurts. it is disengagement. that is perfectly legal in this country. one last thing i would look at is here is my overarching concern. somebody gets out of jail and has an attack there will be

congressional hearings that will drag out the fbi director to say he was a convicted terrorist, why didn't you stop and when he got out of jail? the short answer is there was no predicate you cannot do a full scale investigation getting out of jail if they are not committed the overt act from a public perspective why didn't you watch this guy? think we have the resources to pay for men and women in a van on a 24 hour shift for everybody that gets out of jail but also we haven't coordinated that. us attorney your presence and probation officers, you don't train officer and what they should look like what they look like. are they looking for religious? they should employ one - - they shouldn't be but we train them not to? these are things that we don't

know. >> what happened to the programs of the late 20th century that were reintegration programs and relocation programs? that could be used not just in terms of terrace that again with this category of criminals? do you see any hope along those lines? >> i don't. i think largely the numbers are relatively small we have 85 individuals that will get out in the next few years. if you spread that across 94 attorneys offices so they don't have a large-scale program to be used for one guy in chicago i talked to a guy who was in our shabbat and then got out but now his mosque doesn't want anything to do with him because he is a

convicted terrorist they don't want that heat so now he has no social fabric or safety to help them out along the way. i don't know how to solve it i just know it is a problem. >> a couple of people asked the question now with your expertise which is guantánamo. the country he chose not to bring the individual charge of crime to the united states do you hope in the future the plan on bringing them here with the appetite of the criminal justice system to make that happen are there enough people in government who are thinking that way as a possibility going forward? >> most practitioners would

tend toward political resource because it works they are at the history of being able to do so in that declassification system that is not great but not broken's we have a track record. am i hopeful? yes. i don't think we scare as easily as we use to just with the nature of the new cycle now so we brought back 24 people overseas and and isis and it wasn't even a three paragraph many don't have these giant press conferences and then to take other british citizens and nobody says why do we do that? it just made sense so i am hopeful for that you have a

decade of fits and starts and information when he gets very dirty very quickly. >> i'm hearing it could happen. >> i was going to ask you but you have any others to add? >> the real take away from the book as were not talking on a large-scale phenomenon. it is interesting and the reason why with the joint terrorist organizations so we add to that question what we took away is relatively small phenomenon and isis had a perfect hand to recruit that unprecedented number we are in

a better place than we were. >> i suggest everybody read this book before we go. i just want to say what's coming up we have a few new interesting podcast coming up. one is a report on terrorism and the take away is there is something there but not what we imagine it to be and it focuses on the compatibility with europe and we have two more covid reports coming out around the world taiwan italy brazil vietnam.

so we can do a lot of research year. everybody should read this book homegrown thank you all for your questions and have a safe thanksgiving we will see you on the other side. >> >> look at this technology that keeps creating the biggest businesses in the world with the biggest listed companies so how come the internet is the equalizers and connectors why does it with these really powerful

individuals? and these really powerful companies? . . . . will