>> thank you for joining author and site booktalk series. a series of discussions with authors with important newly-released books on american politics, policies and leadership. my husband john mccain fought his whole life to promote american character leadership and democracy to the public and it's incredibly important today to carry that legacy forward by any means possible.

today's installment, the roles of freedom and democracy and american foreign-policy will feature general h.r. met master who served in the military for 34 years and held the position of the 26th assistant to the president for national security affairs as well as being a close friend of my husband for many years. he will be talking about his new book "battlegrounds" the fight to defend the free world with dr. #drphilno of the 16 present at arizona state university mccain is institute trustee and a deer friend of my family. we are honored to host thought leaders with general muck master in president crow for world being important and timely discussion on u.s. foreign policy. >> dr. crow you can begin.

>> led to see everybody here. general muck master nice to see you again. what i want to do first is say the book is a fantastic piece of work. a they got many little tags on it. i want to say sometime relative to a set of core ideas you put out in the book and in fact some but i think are fantastic in the sense that they are really concepts that we should be using in the articulation of our thinking about foreign-policy and national defense policy and so forth and i articulated 20 questions for you. 17 i'd like to have not elongated dancers in the last three i really want to spend a bunch of time on. the first one is and you articulate this, we have seen unbelievable change since 1945. if you look at the results of the two great works of the 20th century we have the most peaceful europe we have ever seen and the greatest advance of

democracy in the history and i cannot regress like no one could have her possibly have imagined and realignment in germany and japan and successful economic democracy. the question to you is it goes all the way back to the wilsonian advance democracy. in general how do you think things are going in general in the last 120 years in general? >> president crow water pleasure it is to be with you and to be here at an institute that is named for a man for whom i have tremendous respect senator mccain and what a privilege it was to know him over the years. i ate admire him at aunt his record and server send your service and record. if you look at this last 100

years in the context of a broad sweep of history i think we have made tremendous progress to have crafted an touring piece without great power conflict and a piece as you alluded to the people out of poverty. i think we can't be complacent. complacency never works. i lost you there for second. let me go, so we view things as no complacency, lots of progress tremendous struggle and of that since the struggle for in some ways the soul of the core of humanity is will we be individually free humans? the will we be able to to advance our lives based on the core principles of our democracy

as a species are not. we have made tremendous progress so one of the words that you use in battlegrounds is an important word to me and as a heavyweight wrestler and all the other things as involved in what is the core of the fight and you talk about that. what do think is the core of the fight? >> i think the core is the fight is we have to compete effectively to ensure our free and open societies remain secure or are prosperous and we can extend effectively. i think we have to recognize that we have to re-enter what we vacated. maybe pessimism and resignation in the 2000's. i think we are at a fundamental level in a competition between

free and open societies and closed authoritarian systems. >> the fight and the competition is much more than marshall is philosophical, and i want to say cultural that might be the wrong word but it's about core principles of who we are as humans and their martial elements. you can be overrun by others are wounded by others. it's everything basically. >> i make an argument in the book that its competence in that competence is to integrate all of our elements of national power with the efforts of like-minded powers. we don't want to militarize or only use information communications. increasingly we integrate efforts across the public and private sector to take the approach to these problems that

you take which is an interdisciplinary approach to these challenges. >> where you have made significant contributions to the design of our policy and national foreign policy so let a start to pin this down into short answer form. this notion of when to something not become any longer a strategic threat? you talk about this is as strategic threat and may still be a strategic threat going forward in the united states but i've been to russia many times and i've been all over the place. my first visit in 1991 i got the plane and i said you are kidding me, right? it doesn't mean they are not a military threat and they are not a strategic threat that their economy has been declining. they can't throw their navy. they have a dictator who roams the planet doing whatever he wants with this new approach

that i will bring in here to second. mexico's economy is almost as large as russia's economy. they are ajit 20 and russia's arising g20 so at what point is it no longer strategic? >> it's a two tg get the other massive nuclear arsenal and a few unscrupulous. what russia wants to do is they don't want to me with was on our own terms. they want to drag everyone else down. economically demographically especially in the wake of covid but what did they do recently? they poisoned his main political opponent navalny and made a sustained campaign of political subversion against us. what russia really wants to do is to sow doubts about who we are as people to polarizer society to >> us against each other and reduce her confidence in our

institutions and processes. russia isn't strong enough to create vulnerabilities in our society but they are stone up to exploit them and as we see russia doing. putin's victory is to be them last man standing and to be successful in this campaign of subversion against the free world. >> which is the classic position of the dictator of focused individual who has no interest beyond themselves. >> i think these emotions are lost after the collapse of the soviet union and its ambition to restore russia to national greatness so he's using the tools he is available which you mention are limited that but they are also very dangerous. >> the dangers particularly as they declined so perhaps the nature of a different kind of classified classification for a strategic relationship. the next question, before will work to the u.s. army was a small institution and the military the united states was

generally only expanded for the time of war. we never found yourselves in the position of maintaining a war footing or war capability for decade after decade after decades of us is the first time in a republic's history that we have really done this. what do you think are the costs or the risk of maintaining and i'm not saying it's bad on to it's bad on to sing the way it is. whatever cost of the risks of a permanent war? >> it should be a deterrence because what you want is you want to build a force that can convince your adversaries that they cannot use their adversaries against you but what we find in the 20th century of there for was security when north america and rely on the two great pacific and atlantic ocean we are in an increasingly interconnected and drinking world in which challenges to our

security overseas can readily reach our shores whether it's jihadist terrorist and what they did in 2001 or a new coronavirus that reached our shores earlier this year. i think the argument in "battlegrounds" is we have to stay engaged and we have to have a broad range of defense capabilities not just military. they can't accomplish their objectives through the use of force or other means below the threshold of but might alyssa the military response. >> that segues to my next quick question which is how do you design a conference of defense strategy and issue suggests in the book military cyber bioclimate political interference, all these things. the military is not well-equipped to deal with all those things affect its not equipped to deal with some of them at all. if you look at our response the pandemic we look like a pack of

fools in a lot of way. we can't get her act together and we can't make command and control decisions in the way that we should. a lot of things are going on at all levels not just the national level. how do you design a conference of defense strategy and it conference of defense strategy that's got to be more than a military? >> is darwin's design thinking. you have to start framing these complex challenges understanding them on their own terms and viewing through the lens of our vital interest. the question is why do we care and then we can craft goals and specific objectives and an inventory the competitive advantages we have at our disposal. that's the beginning i think of being able to develop a policy and a strategy. also important is understanding. what are the assumptions under which we have to operate and as you mention what are the limits of a system that we have but

also what are the bandages? it's very important to acknowledge the degree to which others have agencies and authorship over the future recognized the interactive nature of these competitions. i think we skip a lot of these steps in washington. we tend to rush to actions that we are having a ready or try to fit everything into a military stovepipe or a facilitator of excellence instead of recognizing the real competence comes with integrating our efforts. >> the design approach probably doesn't mean a new art take you late in the also talk about identifying the agency of our adversaries or our competitors as well as enhancing the agencies of different groups and i sits itself which means rethinking the entire process as you suggest later in the book to be nonlinear. we are so linear right on her

thinking that the following to start happen none of that would avert greater linear thinking we knew kovic was coming. we knew they were going to be great pandemics and we thought in linear ways and we were ready. >> the models were wrong and we misunderstood big aspects of the problem. we had to learn and adapt. we weren't as agile as we need to be. i think it's the words we have to emphasize the ability to coordinate and integrate efforts. we are a federal system. we are a republic and we are going to have strong control and we be terrible at it if we try to do it. we have to coordinate and integrate more effectively and with the private sector as well. >> in short form farm leaving enough time for questions at the end world war i and world war ii changed europe in the future forever and the enlightenment

was saved the last 400 years of social and cultural progress. it looks like people are no longer interested in the maintenance of this western alliance. good or bad and i know the answer but how bad is this western alliance? >> it's bad but the situation the prospects are not as bad as we think. there's a growing realization that we are all in this together. when you look at the aggression of the chinese party toward diplomacy and there's nothing like the process -- prospect of death and in the west within europe and between europe and the united states trans-atlantic relationships including the united kingdom separate from the european union but still culturally and in terms of principles and values connected

that i think we recognize we are in a competition. that's the first up and we have to cooperate together to build a better future for generations to come. i think there's a growing realization as we are in this crisis of covid and the recession associated with it and a crisis of confidence as well. >> one of the things you introduced in the book very well i think and very clearly is this russian next-generation warfare. in crimea their successful implementations with conflict, social disruption, political disruption and cultural disruption social media messaging interaction of democratic processes and we have done a number of those in our country and countries around the world so the question on rng that if that's what the enemies

using it why are we countering it with the same approach are undermining it with that showed approach. >> i think we are getting more adept at this and the u.s. government along with allies and partners. there is a lot of great coordination going on but doesn't really meet the eye. we need to become better at it. the contrast between russians and their lack of effectiveness and 20 teen you can see the so many defensive measures and also some changes in policies that have reduced our cyber capabilities and what's also important is that you use your competitive advantage. what do you see in particular and investigations that are important not only for sanctions on groups like the internet research agency -- but what we

have been able to do is react better now and expose the kremlin's act 70 and expose the sunlight and sunlight is the best disinfectant in this case when you are looking at this form of russian new generation warfare this aspect of it which i call and many call now cyber enabled information warfare which is part of this overall campaign of political subversion. >> one of the things that i kept coming back to my mind was this notion you are writing this book with the u.s. remaining as the soul superpower on the planet and that our member the last soul superpower in the planet was rome which then had internalization of conflict and believable social and political disruption weaknesses collapsed ultimately people being killed on the floor of the senate, the tribune and others in the pro

councils in the councils all that each other's throats and ultimately the demise of the entire empire. any worries about our empire? >> a i would call us and empire but the free world overall. i think what you are seeing these days is a connection with international cooperation but if you look at the reactions to recent aggression by the chinese communist party and how that has brought together in the australia japan and the united states crossing the pacific and how to work together with even more partners. and then i think the relationship with eu countries with the uk is getting stronger as well. if our free and open societies work together specially japan and the eu and the u.s. cooperate together truly going to be tough to beat and i think that's the best shot in

convincing her of the series that they can't accomplish enough that they want without doing at our expense and expense of future generations. >> i'm going to skip around your little bit. you choose a great quote if you know your enemy and you know yourself you need not fear battles but for every victory gained you will suffer defeat. we do know russia and they were defeated by us. did we know vietnam? >> no, we didn't know vietnam and this was a topic of a previous book i wrote. >> the do we know china? >> i think we are learning more about china. we have a narcissistic view of china and china with relation to us and we have the cube

bristol -- hubristic attitude. they will change their form of government but of course that wasn't the case. we underestimated the degree to which ideology and a motion drive the communist party. as you know michael and we all know china scenting but monolithic. it's important i think for us to distinguish between the chinese people broadly and the chinese communist party which is a small percentage of chinese people. >> i've been following the 50 largest cities in china and several of them at many times and we have hundreds of thousands of american organizations companies universities and others working with the people and not working so much of the government but working with the people and the economy in lots of ways.

do we know iran? >> i don't think so. iran has missed two big aspects of understanding the behavior prefers to call the ideology and the ideology of the revolution and who's in charge. the revolutionaries one. you could say republicans and revolutionaries and the revolutionaries won out. , nay and the guardian council. >> that those interesting how you brought in multiple ayatollahs. >> this is a theocratic dictatorship. the second fact in this sometimes is iran has been fighting a proxy war against us for four decades. we tend to focus on a discrete issue what is iran doing in iraq?

in building projects working on projects with the u.s. congress as were still going on around the country to remember him telling me how difficult it was to have the military and the civilians all working together in the actual art of nation-building and he told me story after story of the complexities. we have the gps locator. he was a civilian out in the field and so what about nation-building?

>> and and we eliminate the taliban threat to combat arms. we could become engaged in a more successful way that all of the british attempts fighting in some sense the same groups over time yet we have not built the nation yet so what is your thing about that part of what we do when we undertake such a project? >> obviously it's people who build the nation oftentimes we try to do too much ourselves and in the case of afghanistan we neglected this very important task of consolidating military gains to get to a sustainable outcome there and after that we realized it and then we dump too much money, too much resources into the country beyond capacity of the country and we did it in a way that was not sensitive to the traditions in the history and the culture of afghanistan. >> all those things you just

mentioned are knowable. the military is there to protect defended defeat the enemy. to protect their assets and protect our interests and defend their interests and to defeat the enemy. that's the purpose of the military while at the same time out of the other corner of the mouth working with others to try to build the country. the same things when on vietnam at the same time as you known as you wrote about yet neither were successful anywhere near the level to produce the kinds of results. >> or some other way to do this? >> the way to do it is making sure next time we don't do it under the illusion that a war can be fast and efficient and you can just leave on a high note. the consolidation has always been an integral part of war unless you are conducting a raid. a raid is where you plan to

withdraw. we have to consolidate because it means turning in afghanistan into denmark. >> we are trying to capture a person so one last quick question and i dropped some of the others off although i thought your quote of general alexander was one of the greatest for wealth in history and i'm like well not really but the latest but just food for thought is great for general alexander but how do you defend against that? it's like we don't even have the right rules. i noticed that you the middle east as strategically important so why is it strategically important going forward quickly moved the american energy economy away from the reliance on that region but increasingly that will be the case. the saudis and others are investing in future economies so all kinds of things are going on talk about that in a just quick

form why do you think they are still too cheap -- strategically important? this involves first and foremost organizations who thrived in environment of sectarian civil war across the region. but that does and u.s. and educator understands this better than most people is that there is a cycle of ignorance hatred and violence and that it during conflict is perpetuating ignorance and then that ignorance. >> civilian people not part of the world want to go to college. >> that it's easy for that population to foment hatred, hatred of the other and use it to justify violence against innocents.

that cycle has to be broken. >> and then the destabilization threats or they have the ability to destabilize all kinds of things. >> and to attack people. after member the greatest victory as we know they are determined to commit mass murder on our territory and elsewhere as a tactic in the war and i read in the book i think these organizations are more dangerous today than they were in december of 2001. this has a lot to do with the orders of magnitude larger groups of people and the era alumni of the resistance to the soviet occupation of afghanistan and it was them who committed mass murder attacks of 9/11, the al qaeda, the isis and the alumni of these organizations

are larger and more global and have greater capabilities and they are trying to get access to the most instructive weapons on earth. they work with partners in the region to ensure that these groups don't gain the strength such that they can threaten on the scale of 9/11. >> a don't have much time left before questions that you bring in antoine and i don't know how to pronounce his last name the scientific way of warfare. it does not seek to isolate open systems but apprehends their environment and profound agreements. that is a profound thing to understand. an open system the notion of understanding open systems but you can't isolate these things and cut it up and hope somehow that will solve it. how do we design a national

defense system including a military and other things and it has to be more than a toy by the implication of an open system itself but there's economic cultural religious social military all kinds of things. where would you start to make something like that happen? >> i think you need to start at the national level and understand problems domestically but these are people who understand the complex causality of events and phenomena but also understand the tools that can be brought to bear. these are people who are intellectual tone extent that also practitioners as well and understand better how to operate together and how to apply these capability strategically. law enforcement and economic actions, can't he done with

teams of civil servants but also join in academia and the private sector come together around these problems sets. >> i know the military is trying to do this in a number of new centers and initiatives things related to new kinds of warfare and new kinds of conceptualization army's future command and other things that are ongoing. you are part of helping to conceptualize a lot of these things. how do you allow the military it's the koran discipline and its culture and yet at the same time open that culture and bring a gauge what do others? >> a think away to do it is education. i received a gift in the middle of my career after operation desert storm got to go to the university of south carolina and teach history and i think it's

the adult education model in the military. we have already were you have more challenging experiences as a young person and then you get the educational experience allows you to reflect on their experiences and prepare for future responsibilities. and to learn, to learn about life and in this case for me military history which i found quite relevant to my career. >> flag officer sent senior field-grade officers and american military among the most educated and most acutely both trained and educated individuals in our entire society and outside of the military though the awareness of the military and military culture and so forth and so on goes down really quickly. there's a disconnect i think that we need to figure out how to solve. how would you solve that? >> we have to allow people to move more fluidly and easily between the private sector the military the public sector in academia.

we had to come up with original policies and we think that we think that super easy to do. someone once to contribute intuitive to our her military or government agency of some kind we have to welcome them and that the midcareer level and allow them to move back in. this is why -- that there were lots of people who remained lieutenant commander in the navy. they were brought in as a part of the team and they made stuff happen across all dimensionality's world war ii but we don't do that anymore. >> ceo of general motors and the mobilization efforts. i think we have to do it because what we are seeing now is new generation warfare but i'd describe other pernicious threats. operate not just against our military not just against our government but against our private sector and we see it in academia as well.

we all have to be better educated and that's why republicans because i hope it will help people understand the better the challenges we face. >> i think it does a great job doing that last question before we turn it back over to coal, you have your mcmaster for resolutions in here. one optionality for national security challenges and to copy have to understand more of the nature of the problems themselves and three all government evolve much as the military and for assume quantum forces, that was my word quantum forces things that are happening in a difficult logic rabies were revolutions the way that i'm trained in the way work make perfect sense. i apply this to cope in and i'm like we didn't do any of them, not one of them relative to covid have to conclude and i'm asking this question in all

sincerity i have to assume somebody decided global pandemics are not a national security threat when of course they are. >> this is the difference between planning and implementation and execution. you have a beautiful plan but you can implement it so it's all going to be effective. >> the seven peas proper planning performance. >> we understood what it would take and we being the u.s. government across on administration starting with george w. bush. this is the power of history. he read this account of the pandemic after 9/11. he said hey we have a big problem here. we need to get out this. >> i saw the speech that he gave that he outlined all the things we should do. we didn't do any of those

things. >> will we did and we forgot and we compromised efficiency for effectiveness through when the big as problems was the efficiency and supply chain over what would be your necessary to respond to this. we have supply chains that were fragile and over reliance on china and we didn't stockpile what we needed. over overtime and we will probably do this again and the pandemic will -- will hopefully not forget the last one. >> the pictures good and i think the picture is fantastic. i think the book is a straightforward honest assessment of where we are and i think your prescription is the scientific way of warfare breaking the cycle for resolutions for the national security council these are very significant contributions in one last final question what is strategic empathy?

>> strategic empathy is the ability to view these complex challenges and opportunities from the perspective of the other. especially adversary rivals and the antidote for strategic narcissism which this the tendency to assume what we do or decide not to do will decide the outcome and engage in wishful thinking in terms of self-delusion. zachary shore i recommend his work he wrote a book called the scent of the enemy which he introduced us to this and i think it's immensely important. as you mention none of these challenges are conducive for linear progress. there is a continuous interaction with many other actions including adversary's rivals and enemies. you need in overarching policy but that has to be flexible in

its utilization in execution. >> i remember i did reading a book about vietnam. i was trapped in maine a few summers ago and ended up reading the book that happened to be on the bookshelf at the house my wife's parents on. they must have bought it at a yard sale. it was written bye bye an army astern during the vietnam war and nothing but coaching. this army historian at the end of the book said ho chi minh is the rough equivalent of george washington and the sense of a revolutionary general. at the end of the book he said we don't understand these people. we don't understand who this person is. we understand anything about what we are involved in it was like army report 99-66 but i remember being profoundly affected by the notion of our lack of understanding and lack of strategic empathy so i'm really glad you were able to bring that. i appreciate that.

cole i don't know if you are opening up the floor for questions but general thank you very much. a great book and great to have a chance to talk with you and appreciate all that you have done. >> resident pro-what a privilege privileged just to be with you and thank you so much. >> kolar reopening it up to questions >> thank you again for joining us. we do have submitted questions. dr. crowe its up to you you can keep going with the questions that you have or we can scroll through and look at some of the ones that are submitted. >> those are i'm looking at some of those right now. let me just take a quick look. we have got people that are reading you and hawaiians so that's very good.

a lot of these questions i think you should get all of these questions. here is one i think you have party already in just a little bit. here we are sitting there and china's moving forward to global economies are emerging in their intricately tied with each other whether we like it or not in their -- is like playing a hockey game with no rules for the chinese are allowed to check the americans without any penalties. they are no penalty boxes so if you had three things you could do and i'm drawing from a question to the author if he had three things to do relative to china where would you start? >> first i would start off with china's economic aggression and work together as we are with that and the eu and others to demand reciprocity. reciprocity in connection with access to the chinese market and reaction to our market and also reciprocity in connection with

listing on our exchanges but in general we should treat china like every other country in the same kind of standards. make good on the promise which is to play by the rules. the second would the to strengthen the military partnerships to ensure china is unable to use this combination of co-option and coercion and create servile relationships and engage in the largest land grab in history for example in the south china sea and the military commission as well. the third thing i would recommend is let's make ourselves better. let's take advantage of our competitive advantages and in the chapter in "battlegrounds" i say we should use what china perceives as weaknesses as our

greatest strength. this is free-market instead of an economic system. it is a rule of law instead of the rule of a single party and its strengthening democratic processes in a meaningful way for through the way that senator john mccain advocated for his entire career. i don't think anybody is predisposed to not want to have any say in your their government for example medicine mean you should go around trying to blow up democracy but those who avoid to help themselves to want to reform i think we and the rest of the free world should support those efforts. >> speaking of senator mccain ambassador mark green the new director of the mccain institute and he's asked what are you most proud of from your days at the nsa? >> i'm most proud of the shift in china.

overall there's a process in place that you have really summarized viewing it from the lens of -- but really to make implicit assumptions that often underpin our policy strategies explicit and challenge them. that so we should do as china and i think we have implemented what his been a bipartisan i hope it will be a bipartisan nonpartisanship process and cooperative engagement with the recognition we have to compete and re-enter critical arenas for which we've been absent. >> one of the questions i'm going to modify a little bit that was sent in as you suggested president bush focused on the rest of the pandemic and the third corona in 20 years. the first two were less contagious and more deadly and this one is less deadly and very contagious but nonetheless very

impactful. we have the ball incident that the military of the united states was heavily involved in yet for the reasons you suggest we were ready. this is not the last pandemic. there will be a pandemic within every five to 10 years cycle that's probable because of the biocomplexity of the planet. we can't go through this again and so how do we ensure that when we learned something it sticks and whoever happens to be elected president of sh and i'm not commenting about the president i'm talking about the office. i can't say nevermind i don't believe in any of this. how do you do that? >> first of all you have to actually study this most recent experience the shortcomings in the response and really learn from them. i've been so disappointed in how

partisan this issue has become and what i did michael was i asked for volunteers from students at stanford and we have engaged in the study over several months now but will rollout a week from now which are lessons learned from the covid-19 pandemic and what they can do. >> she might be one of her students. >> she is actually and she's done it great job. the method we used is pretty simple. we just interview people in the public and private sector had an essential role in responding to the pandemic and asked them what went well what went wrong and what he recommended recommend and synthesize those perspectives and to this report.

who aren't a biomedical response. i mention supply chains, other impediments were we could not mobilize as quickly as we could. the number one reason we could not was because ineffective coordination, sharing of authoritative data between departments of the federal government, between levels of government because we are in a federal system, and between public and private sectors because we have this hybrid healthcare system. so that is number one headliner, coordination, integration, sharing of data. and then the third aspect is innovation of biomedical innovations for therapies and for vaccines. i think we are going to come out okay on that. because there has been investment across many years in that area. you are seeing that now. this is from the u.s. government, the gates foundation, others who have contributed. subject back here at asu we've

had lots of funding from ditch, and jarvis. we have a point-of-care sampling device to fit into a mic fluid device to tell you if you have coronavirus or nox, covid or not. and then it communicates with yourself own greenlight go-ahead. or it nearly immediately for deer working on things like that. all of the structure of infrastructure of scientific investment we've got. so : how redoing for time? >> we are good we have about 15 minutes if you want to fill that time however you want. >> so, here is a tough question. i am asking you this is a formal general officer, and the role of military and the politics and so forth. so one of the listeners has asked him we have the selection and the president says i'm not leaving. >> they don't get to say that. not what is brilliance, okay, our founders were brilliant for it i think they were

brilliant. they were flawed, a republic is always been a work in progress. but at our founder they all asked each other, hey what is the worst thing that could happen? many of them have lifted or their parents or grandparents have lived through the blood he wars the 17th century in england. when george washington's grandparents fled the english civil war. and he had very much in his mind the spectrum of a man on horseback, oliver cross will who would undo our democracy. they also had in mind the daja of factions. political parties now and how partisan we have become and how that could lead to what they feared violence and divisions in our society. so one way to make sure our democracy can survive is to separate the powers. the executive branch has no say in a secession of government. it is only the congress and the judiciary that has a say. so i am not worried about this. when people speculate about the role of military, that is damaging in and of itself.

all of us have a responsibility to keep that bold outline in place between the military and our government, right? nobody elects generals, they are not accountable to the people in our system. it's very important to maintain civil control of the military. it's important for politicians on both sites do not try to dragged the military departs of politics. also the dueling of admirals and generals for it i've got these guys and gals signed up for me, my list is longer. i respect the rights of those retired flag officers to sign up, do whatever they want say whatever they want. by think they have to recognize that could come with a cost. serving our military should be rewarding, challenging, fulfilling for you no matter what political party were from, nobody cares. you know what, when you are fighting in, you're not look at the man or woman next to sing with the color of their skin?

what's the religion? was her political party? you're all in it together you are down together by mutual trust and respect. you become a family. you become a family with the man or woman next year is willing to give everything come included their own lives for you. we have to remember that as americans. we got attacked on september 11, al qaeda did not attack democrats or republicans, they attacked americans. we become so divided from each other it's incumbent on all of us to convene people with a tenor family, our community, or university to come together and restore confidence in who we are as a people. what we can agree on maybe before we can talk about what we can disagree on. >> sober checking in in from afghanistan. he is asking you, your views about the peace accord with the taliban. and i read about the peace accords with the taliban and i am like, you know, i remember reading in churchill's diaries

his first engagement actually in combat was on the border of then india and now pakistan and afghanistan. woody talked about in terms of the nature of tribal warfare and the other things going on in that part of the world. and so just very, very complex. the question is do you think the taliban and the regional allies including pakistan which you do write about significantly in the book are sincere in their commitments. and they will cut ties with al qaeda and other terrorist group groups. can we get broader in a sense positive evolution in the region? you think we're moving in the right direction? >> absolutely not. think what we are doing is an utter disaster. they have to pay a much higher price as a result. this is the ultimate, we conjured the enemy we wanted. [laughter] in afghanistan instead of the enemy that really exists. there is no bold line,

mr. nourse i'm sure knows this as well. he is from the south of the country i would imagine. he understands the evolution of the taliban. the rule with the afghan people from 1996 to 2001. in the afghan people do not want this. we have partnered with the small minority of really i think actually only as people who have inflicted great harm on humanity by sponsoring al qaeda. but they ruled themselves, right? these are people who do not acknowledge any degree of human rights. especially women's rights. so the question, was that mass execution a soccer state and every other saturday? is it every other girl schools bulldozed? we made a tremendous mistake and really what appears to be partnering with the tile band against the afghan government. and you know what the taliban negotiators are saying to the afghan negotiators right now? they are saying hey, we beat the world's greatest

superpower. who are you to negotiate with us you have nothing to bring to the table. they are trying to dictate terms and powershare. and of course, al qaeda and the taliban are completely intertwined. and i could go on about it's in the book. it's frustrating to me michael, i think that this is the perfect example of strategic narcissism at work. >> so he has asked you think north korea will show some sort of bling here before the u.s. presidential election to influence the election? bling being some sort of missile action, missile threats, missile test. additional target threats. japanese intimidation whatever you want to call it. i think it's likely after the election paid what he wants to get us to get to the failed

cycle of previous efforts to do nuclear eyes. and that cycle is a big provocation, for example the missile test. in the we clamber typically, hey can we talk to you, can we talk to you? and north korea feigns indifference but then extorts payoffs direct payoffs to the regime just for the privilege of talking to them. there's a long drawn out frustration that is a weak agreement that stocks locks in the status quo does not really do anything. to break the agreement and repeat the cycle. i think after the election though like libya provocation. much like 2016 to 2017, there is a. a very high activity for north korean regime. it's an issue that's not going away. the question this is the

regime getting a little more fragile now? you had him apologize for south korea which is something unusual. he is been disappearing for weeks at a time. we think maybe, covid-19 has been the best mechanism to enforce u.s. security council sanctions. and also, there is a new class emerging. a class of sort of a merging middle-class who benefited from this corrupt authoritarian system. who has more to lose than they have in the past. but of course this is the world's only hereditary communistic dictatorship. and they divide for their collapse for many decades. >> a strange artifact of a 70-year-old war. in fact it is a world war ii artifact unresolved. we have not talked at all about africa. maybe we will make this the last thing we focus on. i was in africa last year, i was in ghana, accra and

upcountry in kumasi and other parts of ghana, working on different projects we are working on there. and what i noticed unbelievably as everywhere i went, i walked into very impoverished communities, no running water no sewage no sewage treatment. but there are soccer fields and field hockey at all because of other sports. and every single kid i saw was wearing chinese uniforms that had been bought by some local chinese business with chinese mandarin lettering on the african team. this is an english-speaking african country with unbelievable investments down with the level of micro businesses. micro- lending. in other parts of the world that i have been, and other parts of africa it is the same thing. and it is like we are there. we are working at university level. we are doing projects, making things happen. that is about it.

i didn't see a lot of other american influences there. there's a billion people with unbelievable economic complexity and security threat, my son has also been in nigeria and also in the congo working on projects where american interests are being advanced. what is your thought about africa? i think we decided not to take the comprehensive approach the chinese have taken which is economic lyrical social financial cultural, all aspects. we are sort of other than that. what is your thinking about africa will make this final question breaks they have voted into africa. i think we have to talk about in military terms and respect the african people in their own terms. it comes with tremendous promise with the youth population if given the

opportunity with education and with economic growth and opportunity, could be incredibly productive for the world. especially with the respect to the authoritarian regimes that stifle the say of the people of the people think zimbabwe is the poster child of that trying to export its models. and to invest and african large measure for extractive reasons. china needs to fuel its economy. he needs to dominate advanced manufacturing and the emerging data economy and global economy. and to do it, at many cases at the expense of others. nigerian parliament passed a resolution against chinese influence there. and i think there is a big aspect of this, michael, that hazards the interconnected

issues of energy, environment, climate change, health security, water security. whipped look at these interconnected problems, as interconnected. and we have to work with african leaders and african private sector to help the continent succeed. because if we don't, all of those problems don't respect borders, right? we are seeing china talks a good game for example on the environment. but they are building 50 -- 70 plants a year. in kenya there creating a coal carbon plane will to be the biggest carbon emitter in the country. and so i think with the call out that activity. but we have to be part of the solution as well. we ought to be advocating to conversion to omg. we should be fostering the broad range of solutions that are required to address the food insecurity and food and

water supply chain and so forth. there's a lot we could do. in africa's big consonant you get lost there. investments as you have identified anecdotally are massive. they are largely i think aimed at building these relationships which some journalists on the continent are calling at the new form of colonialism. let's not compete with china dollar for dollar. were not going to do that anywa anyway. the vast majority of our investments be private sector investments. and i think the approach that mark retook, he would be a great person to talk to about this by the way in a subsequent session. by his vision for reinventing u.s. approach to aid has tremendous potential. and i think it needs to be amplified and implemented cross both administrations when he is the director of usaid. >> well hr, it is a great book. i don't have stewing hope is

doing very well. i think it is provocative in the sense that you have been infected by the stanford design logically you're offering a number of design pathways. and so, thanks for the chance to talk a little bit about the book. i look forward to getting discussions on other things pray thanks for connecting up with the mccain institute and help us to have these kinds of discussions get out to as many people as possible. thanks for being here. coal, but we need to do to sign off. anything you like to say finally at the end here, hr? >> thank you has been a privilege to be with you. and thanks to you and mark my friend, thanks. >> coal up to you. select dr. kroes, general mcmaster thank you for joining us. and everyone and our audience, thank you for joining us as well. our next session of our book talk series will be on tuesday, october 20 with mark salter tongue met his new book the luckiest man life with

john payne to be moderated i senator joe lieberman. thank you again very much for joining us. >> thanks a lot coal. >> thanks hr. >> you are watching book tv on cspan2. every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors, put tv on c-span2. created by america's cable television company. today we are brought to you by these television companies, by book tv to viewers as a public service. ♪ ♪ ischemic during a recent program, u.s. court of appeals judge for the sixth circuit jeffrey sutton discussed the life and career of supreme court justice scalia. here he talks about the late justice writing and influence. >> i decided i wanted to work for justice glia. if you knew my past, background and family that would not have been your first guess. so why is it that in 1991 i

wanted to work for justice glia? will this is the thing i think most law students can understand. reading and judicial opinions i have to admit as a judge myself and the author of them is usually not a lot of fun. i think this is where a lot of lawyers acquire the habit of drinking more coffee than is good for them. these are not charles dickens novels. his caffeine that gets you through. how refreshing when you're doing this to come across a justice glia majority opinion consent or concurrence. they stood out for their liveliness of their writing. the honesty, the quest for truth. i could have cared less whether justice glia was a living constitutionalist or originalist. all i want to do is get to know him. he seemed like a lot of fun. but then i really wanted to learn to write like him. which is of course unrealistic, so be it i tried to learn to write is close him

as i could. that is how i got to know him. that is why started working with him. and then of course, it was really easily to fall under his influence because his passion for getting his right. his dedication to finding the right answer. making sure you're being honest about what is going on in the case not being afraid to second-guess yourself. and devolve on occasion. and of course his passion for the writing. there is no way you could finish a year with him not want to be a better writer. and so much of becoming a better writer is about wanting to become a better writer. you could not come out of that experience without it. it's really interesting, since the clerkship in 1992, it is been almost 30 years. that year, and many times since he would do something. i would hear him say something. we would talk about a case and i would have this reaction, justice glia that cannot be

right. he would say so forcefully, i guess i'm a little contrary and to have anyone sane thing forcefully makes me want to push back. i can't tell you the number of times that happened. and then i thought about it, or even a couple years would go by announcing that is a really good point, that is a really good point. so now, and writing the introduction to this book, it was not hard for me to embrace original is in. i think it is right. think it is the only answered to destroying the federal courts. i think he has been right all along. i think going back to the point, why this influence? i think it has something to do with the power of his ideas and his remarkable capacity to express them so well. boy, that is not a bad thing to know. that if you can have some good ideas and learn how to express them you might have some influence. >> to watch the rest of this program good or website booktv.org, search for jeffrey sutton of the title of his

book, the essential scalia using the search box at the top of the page. weeknight this month or featuring book tv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. and tonight come as part of our 2020 year review, we focus on best-selling books, former president barack obama discussed his book a promised land. and then eric larson in the book the splendid and the bio. and later pulitzer prize-winning author isabel wilkerson and kasten. that starts at 8:00 p.m. eastern. enjoy book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2. ♪ ♪ >> book tv on cspan2 has topped nonfiction books and authors every weekend. coming up this new year's weekend, friday to new year's day, starting at 8:00 a.m. eastern, lynne cheney on her book the virginia dynasty. susan eisenhower author of how i