courts . think he's been right all along. i think going back to the point of why this influence partied think it is something to do with the power of these ideas partied and remarkable capacity to express them so well . does not a bad thing to know . but if you can have some good ideas and learn how to express them . might have influence . >> to watch the rest of this program is our vote website booktv.org and should search for jeffrey such an or the essential scalia using the search box at the top of the page. >> good afternoon and welcome to this session. the historical perspective on international and national affairs. this afternoon we will focus on a new book by professor sarah. what remains bring americans missing home from the vietnam

war. here's the book . to congratulations and welcome to the seminar. were fortunate to have him here today with cups. and welcome. and i direct the wilson center's history and public policy programming . and delighted to be cochairing the seminar as always . in georgetown washington university . who directs the national history center . today derek will introduce our speaker and moderate for the discussion partied any of you regular viewers now that the washington seminar is a collaborative decade-long effort of our to organizations . history and public policy program . in the

center of the association. in private prior to the pandemic, we met a weekly basis the wilson center . and i were very pleased to come to you via zoom and facebook partied behind the scenes, or individuals who coproduce this event. rachel we sleep the national history center targeted even in this zoom only eric staging these events is labor-intensive. her giving to tomorrow coming up . we ask for your support freedom we think our institutional supporters. in the centers for history and the publican in the george washington history's department . welcome. they support the vent series financially. were grateful for a number of the individual donors make these meetings possible his rank we

invite encourage you to join partied and details about how these are now available in the chat room will simply go to our institutional website. were being recorded and will soon appear under website. for the q&a part of the webinar. eric will remind you again please use the race and function partied and went to press the button, you will be added to the queue. in the moderator calls on you, please unmute your screen. you can also submit questions to rachel weekly by e-mail at our wh a tlt boy at historians .org. * weekly at historians .org. and with that, thanks to her

speakers. and i will zoom on over to eric. >> thank you christian . is my privilege to introduce our speakers this afternoon. sarah and chris . professor wegner is such a professor vent apology at the george washington university and she received ea from - and a phd from harvard. she focuses on post- conflict societies, memory national identity and forensic science targeted she is the author of dna technology in the search for things missing. in the developed in response to the genocide published by the university of california press in 2008 and she is the co-author of in the aftermath of genocide . published in 2014.

by the cambridge university press partied and today she will be speaking on her new book, what remains, bringing americans missing home from the vietnam war published by harvard university press. sarah, the room is yours. >> thank you so much really ... ...

. >> on a day in november 2018 i went to the tomb of the unknown soldier here in washington dc just a journey across the memorial bridge purposely built to connect to the mall to the hallowed ground of the cemetery. rain came down on those of us that assembled with the around

the clock sentinels pacing with me was my stepson a ten -year-old boy as he shifted his rifle from one shoulder to the next my companion was skeptical when he told him he would take exactly 21 steps is issues seem to glide across the meadow is a major conflict over the past century with the korean war going to the too many times the past several years on the one hand to consider the foreign and

domestic and the military ritual widening that military gap performed each hour on the hour through the changing of the guard ceremony. shadowed from the pageantry of synchronicity the monuments original commemorative was for the messages that inflate reflection of what it means to die and on behalf of the nation the critique from a different era so if you occurred here gargling the violent and curable sores, my

friend but against the backdrop it has served a different role for me a touchstone to accommodate the project and the archival study of us military efforts to account for the servicemembers missing in action from the wars of the last century including the vietnam war if in the contemporary military and could not be recognized individually in the vast enterprise that the us has developed over the past several decades boost the confidence can decimate but no

longer steal the identity. but with that disruption in 1998 the remains of the vietnam war to be identified by dna testing us secretary of defense : made a remarkable pronouncement to say maybe science has reached the point there is no more unknowns. so to that claim the united states military may well be a thing of the past the victory is consequences specifically related into that archival work to understand the complex relationship united states has with the unidentified war

debts. and what it means five decades after america's remains are found and what it means when they don't come home for the first pertains to the process at large and that i argue for the united states it would solidify and expand the natural tradition and the identification women to go back to the civil war into those chronicles in her book

and individual burial practices to the system of the national cemetery to those that are identified in the conflict transform the nation alluding to the evolution practice of the 20th century she writes we still live in the world to take for granted to account for their lives and were recently that tradition and to benefit from the transformative and the war in southeast asia with that enterprise that they have spent decades costing hundreds of millions of dollars to

return the dead to the surviving families and the enterprise foster the idea for exceptional care and i want to emphasize is an anthropologist to understand where it comes from how it operates and accounting at its core recovering and identifying to another where is name a set of remains and indeed the individual the final act and those that were killed in action. and then i argue that to put

in the simplest terms it carries the story of military past and present not seen in the home parallel unprecedented efforts with no resource to bring the attention home. it works with the asymmetry of our an estimated 3 million people were killed between 1974 and 75 most by the united states or 50220 resources but the signing of the peace accord united states 2646 americans were unaccounted for equal parts of those missing

in action are killed in action. 12585 servicemembers. those that were estimated at 300,000 that was outside the scope of the enterprise and that example would be described as an exclusionary practice of women and to be sure that the historian christian argued fundamentally as a central tenant and then to the effort to explain that notion. and then in the eighties they began to shift with the rebranding of the wars with forensic scientific to

distance and rehabilitate and to recover and identify that connection. the system of exceptional care is steep us military now since $140 million per year not taking into account millions of dollars with approximately ten teams of military and civilian personnel to excavate the sites made from the trump pandemic the forensic anthropology laboratory in the armed forces dna identification working at full throttle and then to

repatriate but for me but that exceptional cost and resources fullest possible accounting and at one level to provide a narrative to be on the unparalleled efforts and answers the defeat in the corollary to allow the state to shift against the work that there would be no other unknowns science is mutual practice and a new language

suffering to the genetics and the underwater archaeology but there is another level of their fragmented and unstable nature and then go to extraordinary lengths and that brings me to the second thread of the book and then the superlative of the nationstate and then to research across the ark very patriarch and was only about the stake in a

highly localized events to have the capacity in the act of remembering an individual life lost but rather than to be commemorated. and with that particular shift a means a lot. and then to be forced to the surface and then the unambiguous fate those of protracted grief that symbolic way to be bound up with the

nation then whoever transferred that power lies in the homecoming so it is often fraught homecoming three young men from wisconsin from to be killed in vietnam the archaeological digs what constitutes the official recovery that the trajectory of his homecoming homecoming was publicly celebrated at the time alan was declared mia his

family was embroiled in a battle to keep the property from being seized from the us government. the land was supposed to become part of a national park along lake superior. so in short they lost their son and brother and their property in a few short years. the father deeded a small portion that they had owned to give this tiny little strip of it. >>. >> and those places that are

stable in tangible and untouched and changing and deep-rooted. and then my family the house i was born but he tells us because memories also betray us. now there is only a recourse event a few signs of these fragile places. and then to keep alive the

departure and also communion and commemoration once those rights have been rendered to those other attendees the world war ii navy and those on the beaches of 1944 the idea vote for the occasion and for logistical reasons but two and half miles but it had been sent from landing in nature drop allowed the passengers to

disembark. the one who fight and survived. and then to the burial site. making his way from the bow to the island and then coming in from the waters edge. and then to get a sense but it is a serene place borderline mixed with her and asked ben and find in the wildflowers. now one last paragraph. the first the island wasn't as recipient has planned but it

had rained heavily leaving the ground saturated together to press their weight but lasted settled into place in the attendees one by one took a small handful to sprinkle finally he was at rest to the examination table and hawaii he had traveled a long way to come home. asking if it mattered to them and then to be recovered and repatriated as casey explained

i was relative and one came home i will stop there. >> so at this point i welcome the opportunity to talk to all of you. >> so let's have chris share his thoughts by discussing this afternoon in the ma from st. john's college in santa fe that a phd science and technology studies program at virginia tech.

defense preserve for missing in action agency and the senior historian to the joint pow accounting command at the national archives in the offices of the personal office to join u.s. army starting as a historical research fellow with an analysis field and laboratory analysis. in addition to research conducting field investigations the screen is yours. >> having an opportunity to deeply go into your volume and that perspective that you can bring both within the

laboratory for the science and one of the things that struck me as a great contribution from the book among the different places that matter to the story and individuals involved. with the geography of the conflict and more meaningful how the places and those who lived with these people to the connection back to their home. what resonates for me is and then that shared collective experience. one of the things that has always struck me about the mission and then to recognize that individual and to be

expended by the state but the state still owes something and who they are do? just back to the nation or do they owe something to the people who knew this person in a special way? what do they owe to the people that has family and that becomes so much more meaningful and then you look at all the contributions that go in and that's the way you sum it up. it is much larger than any individual but at the same time to recognize the contribution and at the same time i think and then to make

identification's to do field recovery but we can examine the unidentified but i do have something i like to hear more about of the contribution and the global meaning of the unknown soldier the mystery that is there a represents them all but as we unpack that that there will no longer be anymore what is that transcendent mystery that we risk losing moving in that direction? the mission we talk about vietnam and korea and world war ii have memorials with names to make that identification to have a small homecoming but in the most

recent conflicts with a small volunteer force that is directly affected there is a mechanical operation for process and while we think the servicemembers for their contribution i don't see a lot of places they are memorialized and then echo generations further on. >> so when i began this process the entire research

project it was the vietnam. and to be so startled by the fact what seems to be this eternal unknown soldier. and this is enduring and yet 1998 a rupture of the icon. and in fact with the passage in the community to kick it off to make us understand that national identity and belonging. he shows us with the tomb of the unknown are these perfect artifacts to help us understand how we imagine our connection to someone who sacrificed for the nation. and then there is a line we

had written very beautifully about this only the sacrilege to put out the remains and that's in fact what happened and then your question is and then what happened? i remember when i started the project the secretary : sense that maybe we won't have any more and then in the this unchartered territory. with the hypotheses. so what changes in those changing when you can have

that aggregate of the unknown whether symbolic unknown so does this mean it will come down to a personalized narrative? and that personalized narrative and with the biography that precedes human service in the military. that is contentious. and there are some pretty terrible memories of a war. and with that particular history and what is extraordinary to me is that people came from all over the convoy of vehicles and then to

head north to lake superior. and then to bring us back and then it would be the contemporary members of the society that is the crux of what's going on. and then continue to see the attention from the history and the biography prior to military service and to rewrite or tell a story that was contentious and then to

grapple with their own experience. >> and then to tie into the transformation of the tomb of the unknown which is now that flag which is so much more common and therefore to bring that message to not be forgotten those individuals trying not to forget something specific about that individual and those i get lost. but then to be much more

openly for relationship and then leave them where they fell. >> that is a understanding and then current and past servicemembers and then going back and it gained a new force from world war i and the korean war and is necessary for me to double and i can try that archival research i would

say michael allen as well with the increase cultural demand and then with this mythical motion that science can triumph with another unknown and that is 11 trying to do to help not the magic but the work of transformation one - - transformation and the rituals that come out of that attempting to bridge chasms of grief.

>> and with the science part one of the things i find very rewarding in your account is the conversation how the certainty and expertise around identification also evil but at the same time there is a traditional hallmark i recognize every portion of that person's body show me the remains. that is how i will recognize them but then you have visual recognition and dogtags and then the anthropology you get to a level of expertise only a certain level can recognize

that fragmentary remains and when you bring dna into the picture it's another level as well and that expertise and the sacred moving up but then always wanting to return it back but i know that this name goes with this. >> so much what i try to write about the early chapters is extraordinarily powerful tools and then to do extraordinary things. and that rudimentary element of trust. so if families do not believe up and that scientifically sound that the experts have done their job well and there hasn't been a margin of error to receive this i would this

tiny fragment of my brother but is something by the way to be with that sense of research and the efficacy and the science they go hand in glove. and it was necessary for families not just trust but participate and partake in the process with the dna sample and then to try to build up a system if you didn't have family is providing dna samples i felt like i was hearing a different version

and those concerns do you have trusting can we have trust in it that every positive identification so there is so much more. >> and accounting which is a financial history and when you think about it the other parts that come into it. versus what is it worth. so does that mean we could spend everything to achieve

it? there is an interesting balance of the terminology and with those dollar values. >> sorry this is dc and there is a helicopter overhead. but that was one of the interesting things. i did my research and then to come back a couple more times but that mission as a whole to undergoing a paramount scrutiny when there was this oversight that congress had have how many identifications per year where possible and what they were doing at the time and understandably had

you make the system better but i was struck by this language of culpability even to the point of the consultant was brought in i guess i'm not telling you anything you don't know but those external consultants trying to ascertain the mission i had the opportunity to speak with one and i remember her describing and using the language that customers are family because this entire enterprise operates on a necessary notion of sanctity

that the missing are sacred but not families but they are the closest thing we have they are the guardians of the memory and they had been waiting and waiting so now to hear them described as customers and responsive to this oversight don't go down that path i know many have that same sort of frustration with the overwhelming majority of people for the defense department would never concede that. >> and there is another side to them where there was

scrutiny for the reasons maybe not the certainty but that there wasn't a sense the sacred mattered but the language gets problematic and with that effort we went to talk to villagers that's not anywhere else. on and talk about the language as well one of the things i found interesting if you look at the knowledge of the laboratory that we do care very much about this but at the same time how can we be more effective and get more

cases accomplished? there's a part of bureaucracy that deals with that. we have to figure out a way to make that change happened. so there is a lot to continue to unpack what it means to be responsive what it means to be responsive to the customer and the participant in the individual that sacrifice themselves in that anticipation. >> working on the us military component and i remember that

if families did not accept the identification with a challenge to appeal but if it was not successful them the military take care of its own and still bury the remains but it all depended on the family members to accept the validity suggest we call him how is that the case the family could be overridden? ultimately there was no way the identified set of remains whatever language on - - languish there was a need to render that juxtaposition has always struck me. >> but in what way does it

close anything administrative or meaningful. >> do you have some questions? >> yes. >> i will invite the audience to e-mail questions you had a limited amount of time to share the contents of the book with us and there are many things that are absolutely fascinating that may or may not be familiar to either historians or average americans. as an anthropologist, talk a

little bit about how you go about doing your research because you not only interview people that travel to hawaii and absolutely fascinating section you travel to vietnam and you spent many weeks firsthand participating in the reclamation project so how did you go about doing this that would allow you to ultimately tell the story? >> my bread and butter is research and it is essentially the hope you can have sustained amounts of time with your communities are the place

you want to understand well so in this case this project was complicated there are so many different sites and stakeholders people involved in the process it can only never be involved of military veterans or servicemembers or the families. somehow i needed to get a feel for those perspectives and all those different fronts so i thought about it is one tracing the arc of recovery and identification to commemoration one could argue because i started with too many unknowns but i followed the expertise and trace the

science first in fact there were two geneticist who had actually come from so i was tracing that back in those individuals had a hand and the vietnam unknown soldier i got in touch with one and that open the door which meant this ethnographic research and see there is the black lab. she has arrived. [laughter] let's hope she doesn't work. so then to spend weeks to try to figure out what is forensic

protocol with the remains. never spent in-depth time in the identification laboratory. then gradually there was a point that the then head of the laboratory in hawaii said if you understand the forensic part of identification you need to go see what the recovery mission is. so without that access this would have been so different. i accompanied a recovery mission to central vietnam the 28 day archaeological dig, a base camp that met the structures for the rudimentary camp was set u up, spending each day hiking up to find

remains that has been ascertained pinpointed as the helicopter crash site. it rose incredibly fortunate and at the end of it we recovered remains and those led to the story of michael. that gave me the last portion of my research to follow the remains back to the town in the space of the celebrated homecoming. that little town had suffered three losses. one man was killed and came home right away another was killed his remains were returned 46 years later

another person killed in action and never recovered. so in that little town i got a much better sense of what that war looks like decades later. with the resolution coming early on and then to the person who will never come home. so to move across the spaces and through different regimes of knowledge and thinking through an understanding this process the most intimate localized version from wisconsin. >> i have a second question. you met with people with multiple in-depth conversations.

and to get the sense of the local meanings in the personal meanings of the world. when i didn't get a clearer sense on is the way it one - - the way that it was the vietnam war other than the position in time. world war ii, the cold war before the nazis and as you said earlier in your talk was contentious. united states government for all of the talk now to the american people they lied to politicians in my to the men and women who served in vietnam and i wondering if in the discussions of the people that you talk to there is any reflection critical are not critical about this particular

war and what it meant to them with their historical memory and the thoughts of the government and relationship viciousness assumed are flat you talk about? >> now there are moments where you see the anger and the bitterness this is a celebration of a soldier returned home and here are examples in the third person when the family put on our 50th remembered ceremony standing at the back of the room was a vietnam vet talking about how the us government rights blank

checks everybody who serves and then he said in a strong tone they cash the checks of these three men so in more subtle ways the person that i quote to introduce that community and she writes poignantly and maybe us and ptsd. and she shares a fair amount of her feelings and what they took from him he wanted that acknowledgment at the very end of the book and that it

encapsulates that frustration and anger and sense of betrayal and that famous motorcycle and then to talk about with a group have other bikers that would come to the capital like rolling thunder. and she got separated but running around dc and that can be a disorienting place if you don't know where you're going with that feeling that the

sense of not knowing where he was and never really been welcomed home and that is a message to the state. and also i will say in my wisconsin crew with the politics on this leave. but if we were taking the bus back home and then to say they are happy to have me back. and in that community and this

is my point about the particularity of the local and then to welcome them home whether or not the nations at large welcome them home is a sticking point but to be outside the beltway in which one do you come to accept? frankly this is the subtlety of my interlocutors displayed. >> this is a wonderful book and a fascinating

presentation. thank you we're are historically here the audience put your book with those recovery efforts into a broader historical context. and with that effort to recover with an important intervention. >> yes and as i say it took me a while to contextualize the

vietnam war and that became clear through conversations with historians early on i had read the book which was fascinating starting with repatriation if it doesn't start with world war i and that sense of that dilemma thinking about it in those terms. with that commemoration of war and memory for me and the stages of this project i read and i was very lucky to have them come to the workshop to help me sure if those historical accounts of the book i just finished teaching

that with my graduate students it is such as seminal book working on commemoration and the politics and i do think to jump had a little bit that he touches on something that resonated and a new that it would articulate and have that defamation of bodies so that 10 million people die 5 million do not come back so there is a rupture of the sense of where do they belong? with the american and family member when given the opportunity to decide their

response 70 percent as we want them home and that is the tradition that continues world war ii it is 65 percent with the unknown buried at the cemetery doing some soft diplomacy rendering visible to europe and the sacrifices the us-made and others have written about that but that the majority of families on those remains to come back in the korean war i learned this is a practice during the war i

just waiting for after the treaties to be signed and that they are to be returned and the vietnam war i think is helpful to learn from some of my colleagues not just about the forensic scientific changes but those tactical changes vietnam war is fraught the iconic helicopters that was about insertion but it was also about extraction to take out from the battlefield. this is what took me a while to appreciate and the cultural sensibility and tactical operational aspects with those

dna tests. it wasn't immediately aware for me. they help me to understand that impulse the recovery on the battlefield that the naming of the military hierarchy can be needed to be recovered and to be marked. to think about memorials and monuments to help a community to stick it back together and

appeal to one another talking about how the monument is inscribing the names of those who died but also pointing to the families who will need help and support. i know i needed to study that and 50 and 60 years late that is what i was hoping to get at as they come together if they were not remains to be returned. >> we have hands up so first james you can ask question. >> and the western me many

years ago it is the and acropolis and i was a sensitized and amateurish leave and i thought of that extraordinary documentary five or six years ago hits the documentary and i that air force base in delaware and the dignity of which the military arm and to make this possible.

i have a cousin who lost his life with the second world war in his death certificate and it reads head not found which means the part of him remains and then to spoken already to the search for military men and women with that larger context in the way we are a lost and war not only agreed the wealthy society but fighting war but i can you imagine treating all of the

dead that are lost in the first and second world war to treat individuals now coming home from afghanistan and medicare with the missing in action in vietna vietnam? >> thank you so much for your comments touching on a number of very important themes so let me start with where you began but i remember with the air force pilots with six.five.

and the extraordinary surprise he felt when he learns that remains had been recovered and never imagine somebody was not want end of the families so he got that call so we spoke on a couple of different occasions to feel like the film captured and that attentiveness and that respect especially the military escorts have

literally bringing those remains back to the family. so that phone good portrait resonating with one and remember that was attentive to this process which is incredibly costly and then to be extremely fortunate to have those remains so there is a flip side to that exceptional care and with that forensic science all-powerful and it happens 24 hours you have your result and then firsthand the

problem is that must happening can happen and will happen in several examples so maybe they will not yield that dna sample that the remains are still integrated so that definitive dna profile to match up so there is a sense that science can do it all doesn't deliver

that is extremely frustrating. so to reference world war ii losses when i'm always surprised by and there are some other two families and those that have gone to court and then they do a better job and then those remains are buried in the national cemetery. usually a couple generations removed and there is the sense that case should be resolved immediately and i'm not a

historian but i have the impression around world war ii but this is not something they brought it home and put it away and didn't have that same sensibility. we live in a different era in a litigious society and an understanding those nuances but you may have something to add. >> and the messiness of are in and of itself because there is a common narrative about the stoicism to put it away and endure but also the constant

worry point of the puzzle that hasn't been solved and is still missing by what happened to that? and do a care in the way that helps me worry to solve something? and then that's impossible to understand there's a lot of cases. not to judge which one to work on today or next week? how you constantly make progress and show you care and

then you are a world war ii unknown. is that your loved one? that we don't know for sure and no mistakes were made in the most recent mistake and there is also that challenge world war ii to identify 280,000 people using the science and technology available through 1960 and to make 1 percent of error to make all of the unknowns that we have to sort through my we have to have that he those of care that acknowledges that problem for we can do to understand that level of scrutiny.

>> john ask your question. >> but we will serve in the vietnam war my brother served as a company clerk in the marines and then was ambush one night and took control and one is over starr for his bravery. i was drafted in the sixties before him but then we met

again in washington in the 19 nineties and went to the vietnam wall and then my brother said oh my god he was still alive when i put him on the chopper. and the other question is, ten years later serving as a journalist in washington at the time started teaching at columbia i was overwhelmed and sent a copy to my brother in california.

and said they had no business doing that and we still don't talk about it all these years later. >> there is a lot there. >> and to say a word or two to describe that moment of encounter and with a tragic realization and i referenced a woman from this little town and then to have a very similar experience that his best friend had been killed

and that extraordinary guilt that he lived with and in fact but it was more that he assumed he had died and so that when people came home i'm hearing from veterans and to

put the war behind them of not knowing how not having that feeling of that course of action and as a name a beautiful but very abstract that is so jarring that we are reflected and then i say all this but your story doesn't surprise me and i think it is true. but this was years later to

the vfw post and then that emotional space but again i'm not sure that and then with that experience per se but then to talk about your experience and with that has meant to you on the space of encountering and honoring your father. >> if you raise your hand i can see you.

>> can you discuss the efforts on the vietnamese side? >> i had the good fortune to pair up from amsterdam and she has embarked on a multi- year study and with those efforts with 300,000 missing in action. and to have a research team in the hope that we could work together a little bit shedding light on the american experience but she began her

research looking at the vietnamese government slow to say we will build up the laboratory capacity to seek to identify and now that it has it is a combination of local resources it is ongoing and a fantastic interlocutor to weigh in on my research and then to augment and that vietnamese understanding but there is a process that is

underway and for those vietnamese that are missing not the south vietnamese but now it is a new era that partnered with another organization and it should be a fascinating story to unfold now there is an advantage from afar. >> know your question from a historian at carnegie e-mail the one - - carnegie mellon working on pow and mia issues.

some want to make that difficult in order to demonstrate americans and and to intervene in pow mia diplomacy? >> that is a fascinating question and then to contextualize that in multiple remains there were 208 individuals with extensive co- mingling and it contains multiple individuals this is

been an enormous puzzle for the forensic anthropologist that they had to rely very heavily and has been slow going but there has been a significant amount of progress as well those that have gradually yielded and if you notice the last time i checked i don't know how many more have come out of it. >> more than 200 now. >> now there is approximately 600 individuals presumed and trump in the singapore summit

for those remains that have been returned and those are significantly commingled with those identifications and that larger question is and then it's very hard to tell. >> i know there are cases in the late 1990 and 2000's so remains may have been placed then they direct to these sites so those elements and is

not straightforward and then to describe that attempt. and then with southeast asia dropping that military personnel onto the southeast asian countries and of the extraordinary bombing and chemical warfare. and that this is in the straightforward. and with the larger geopolitical negotiations. and then to ascribe this to each and every case.

>> and then those different opportunities to work with north korea and then to be prepared in the early 19 nineties turnover found the remains following the singapore summit it is combinations from the recovery site early 2000's if there is mal intent that was straightforward and to be very concerned to the drop in the bucket and then to be so concerned and with that

humanitarian mission is embedded in the larger geopolitical challenges and then to the incentive header i get all these things done or solve the mysteries i don't know what happened in laos. i don't know how i can ask the one dish answer those questions adequately the men that contingent upon that and with geopolitical interest.

>> i am afraid we have to draw this too requires thank you and will turn this over to christian. >> thank you. we hope to see you again this wednesday on december 2nd when we discussed the new book the perfect fascist. thank you for a terrific conversation and thank you to the audience for watching and participating. we are adjourned. be safe and be well. take care.