announcer: washington journal continues. host: joining us to talk about the president's legacy on amigration is sarah pierce, policy analyst at the migration policy institute. let's begin with what the president promised to do when he ran in 20 on immigration.

guest: president trump promised transformation on immigration. that is what he delivered. his policies touched every part of the immigration system and things have really changed. this other border is effectively sealed off come if not by a physical wall but by bureaucratic rules. interior reinforcement is vitalized, the courts are operating faster than ever, legal immigration has become significantly more difficult, and inflows into the united states such as refugees are diminished. that was his hope. legalwed both illegal and immigration as a negative and really wanted to restrict both. there are some things that he did not quite accomplish. he promised to deport millions of unauthorized immigrants. he did not even deport one

million unauthorized immigrants during his time in office. has maden though he legal immigration significantly more difficult, the numbers have not decreased. so the live ring on a lot of fronts, but some of his major goals did not quite get there. host: on the numbers, according to your group, the president's deportations are at 935,000. southernions at the border are at 2 million. green cards at 1.1 million per atr before covid, now 840,000. attaining citizenship. why didn't he reach those goals? guest: deportations were not as high as he expected. he had around 900,000 deportations, and during obama's first four years in office, he had 1.5 million. it is significantly less when you think that trump is a

president who came in, unlike obama, really wanting to ramp up deportations. 'se biggest issue for trump interior enforcement agenda is lack of cooperation from local law enforcement agencies. that cooperation between local police and federal immigration authorities has become really politicized. there is a lot of jurisdictions that resisted working with the administration on interior deportment, which cut off a major flow for interior enforcement operations for the president. wall,when it comes to the how much did he construct, and has it been effective? caller: he constructed a little more than 400 miles of wall. it is hard to say that it has been effective because the big flows that we have seen at the southern border during trump's time in office are humanitarian, children and families and asylum-seekers who want to be caught by border patrol in order to apply for asylum in the

united states. issue, hiszing that administration has been very effective in cutting off that flow. it is nearly impossible right now to ask for asylum at the southern border, so those numbers have significantly gone down. has really been this administration's changes on asylum. 1 423 miles -- host: 423 miles of the border the dacat, he ended application process, sped up removal of proceedings, and reduced refugee admissions. what was the asylum process like before, and how has he changed it? caller: before trump came into office -- guest: you could approach a port of entry, or even if you entered into the u.s. border between ports of entry and were caught, you could apply for asylum. you're given a preliminary interview. if you pass that and you are

committed to go to an immigration court system where you officially apply for asylum, that process really just doesn't exist. at the beginning of the pandemic, the director of the cdc issued an order saying that any unauthorized arrival should be immediately expelled from the country, even asylum-seekers. so right now if you are caught, for example, coming in between -- coming into the country, even if you attend to apply for asylum, even if you are fleeing persecution, you are immediately pushed out of the country. back to mexicout and others back to their own countries. host: we want to invite our viewers to join in. start dialing now and we will get to your calls and thoughts in a minute. sarah pierce, what is the docket program, and where does it stand right now? -- the dhaka program.

daca was a way to bring children into the united states and now has no lawful status in the united states. they receive work authorization, temporary plan to not be deported from the country. they could also travel or seek authorization to travel outside the united states. in september of 2017, president trump issued an order to unwind daca and essentially end it. that effort was quickly caught up in the court system, and daca has been kept in place but only for people who had it before september 2017. any of the tens of thousands of people who newly qualified for daca in september of 2017 cannot under the current

structure. the supreme court officially said the way the president went about ending daca was improper, and more recently a federal court said the administration needed to reinstate daca in total. so as of right now, new applicants can finally apply to daca, but there was a good three-year period in which they were not able to, under president trump. the status pierce, of family separations. we heard a lot about that this year. .aller guest: the administration was seeing rising numbers of the border, and they were going through different policies that would deter new arrivals at the southern border come and they familyhe most draconian situations in which they were separating parents from their

children at the southern border. there was republic -- there was public outcry from this, and in june of 2018, president trump issued an executive order that officially ended family s separations. families can still be separated by only for cause. is stillparation ongoing, but it is happening at a significantly lower rate than it was in the summer of 2018, in which it was happening en masse. reunite parents who were separated from their children has been ongoing since then. there was a group identified during or quickly after the summer of 2018, mostly reunified, but then he came to the federal court's attention that there was a significant number of children separated

before that initial group, and efforts to reunite them with their parents are still ongoing. the migration policy institute says that there are possible actions by the incoming biden administration on immigration, which include construction of the southwest border wall, reinstate the daca program, raise and support -- sean, arkansas, a republican, good morning. i think they need to stop it and take a hold of what they're doing and fix it, you know? just families are unthinkable. host: i'm going to leave it there because you have got to turn down that television. put it on mute, listen and talk through your phone. sarah pierce, i don't know if he was talking about a

comprehensive approach. that has been debated over the years in washington. what is the likelihood of that happening in a biden administration? guest: it is pretty extraordinary. the president elect promised to deliver to congress a comprehensive bill that would clear a pathway to citizenship for 11 million unauthorized immigrants in the country, and he promised to deliver that to congress within the first 100 days. extraordinaryty promise because congress has really struggled with immigratione demon reform. to put it in perspective, we have had no legislation changing immigration flows into the country. we have this extremely outdated immigration system. but whether biden's bill is taken up by congress, there is

skepticism about whether or not it will be successful. and a lot of it depends on who controls the senate, and congress' appetite for immigration reform right now, considering there is a lot going on in the country. i am doubtful it will be taken he but it is promising that is stressing significant action early on. host: tony in north carolina, independent. only, good morning. oaller: happy new year two ok, larry in host: massachusetts. a republican. larry? caller: good morning. i want to say a lot of things that trump said that i do not agree with. but i am with him on immigration. , no oneck american male has gotten hurt more than black

america. and daca are still illegal. they are illegal. so again, citizenship, as well as immigration. no one has gotten hurt more behind immigration dan american-born black's, and we should really look at who has been impacted by this policy. what trump stood for, immigration -- i agree with him on that. host: has your parent group done any research on that? do you show numbers that echo what that caller was just saying? guest: sure. i think larry is bringing up a good point. that is one really unique thing about president trump, that he views not only illegal but regal immigration as a negative to the united states. and his messaging was significantly directed at minority communities and any potential damage they received

from immigration. significant economic studies show that immigration as a whole , legal immigration, is a net positive in the united states. it grows our economy. even in ways you cannot measure, contributed to this society and culture and communities. but it is true that in the short working-class lower skill jobs do tend to -- to depress or lower wages a little bit, even though in the long term immigration benefits everyone. thet is important for government to develop immigration policies that address that issue. if immigration on a whole is good for society, we should have immigration but we should have immigration bow should have policies in place that address any depression of anyone in the short term. valerie in new york, democratic caller. greta, good morning,

good morning, sarah. i don't think there is anybody who doesn't think we need immigration reform. fromk with somebody who is the republic of ireland. she is an immigrant like her parents were immigrants. legal immigration -- it is harder to become a citizen. it has been here for 20 years. he owns two vehicles. time foren a scary anybody in this country, and a lot of this is stephen miller, and it has just been a lot of poison in the air. i would like you to talk about that, how it has affected people. sorry, i'm going to sign off. i just think there is a lot of ugliness out there and people need to open their hearts a little bit more. have a good new year. thanks, valerie, i'm really happy you brought that up because it has been a very anxiety producing four years are

both unauthorized and legal immigrants in the country because the president had the viewpoint that legal immigration is a problem for the united states. a litany of policies came down that may legal immigration significantly more difficult and made life more uncomfortable for legal immigrants already in the united states. scrutiny of any applications significantly increased. in the past where the u.s. agency would defer to private approvals, so people would try to expend their time in the united states. now that difference to prior approval is gone. uncertainty on people who are trying to renew their status even if they have been in the united states for a significant amount of time. there is significantly more vetting going on in any type of application. even before president trump took office, because we have such a significant and difficult immigration system, it was quite difficult to immigrate to the united states, difficult to

become a citizen, then now the president and his administration have really tightened that already difficult bureaucratic the that the uri -- that immigration system makes up. host: paul in kansas city, missouri, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. the past couple of callers, to follow-up what they are saying, as an african-american male, i am just on the opposite side of the gentleman i saw minutes ago because he has kind of accepted the rhetoric that is put forth from stephen miller kind of voices that are coming out of this administration. that have come into america from south of the taking jobs specifically from -- are not taking jobs specifically from minorities. it is like what that study

shows. initially it looks like that, but in the long-term term it is not. the jobs that they are taking and filling are as roofers or carpenters, and the concrete industries. those are not areas of the industries that black americans were working in. but if you listen to the rhetoric, the trump is aistration's policy great friend to black america. donald trump stood at mount rushmore and used the words of martin luther king to praise manifest destiny. you have to listen to the entire rhetoric to understand what they are saying. host: i will have sarah pierce jump in. your thoughts? guest: sure, i mean, i think paul brings up a couple of important things. there was a huge rhetoric campaign out of this administration on immigration. i don't think we have seen anything like it before.

the administration used their resources to elevate cases, one-off cases of immigrants committing crime. even though on a whole immigrants commit crime at less of a rate then nationals and the administration pushed everything they could to show examples of immigrants committing crimes, to paint immigrants as a public security threat to the united states. really hasow, that bolstered their immigration agenda and what they were trying to accomplish on immigration. and paul is right, that immigrants largely felt -- they ,ill jobs as u.s. nationals bolstering our economy in that respect as well. host: how far did the president get with a merit-based system, what he calls build america? guest: up until the pandemic, not far.

the president has extraordinary powers on immigration, but there is not a lot that he can do to radically reshape the legal immigration system, which dictates who is legally coming into the united states, without working with congress. president trump made some odd attempts to try to work with congress during his time in office, both the house and the senate making progress toward bills on daca or dreamers, and the president tried to insert his priorities on a merit basis into those negotiations and really significantly failed. and then in the background his administration was also working on a larger immigration bill that they never ended up putting forward. so those efforts largely failed. but then once the pandemic happened, you have a president who is existing in an extraordinary period of time,

and it gives the president more authority. so he issued two proclamations, one on april 22 and one on june 22. neither has gotten a lot of attention, but they are significantly reshaping who is coming into the united states. one blocks temporary workers from coming into the united states, but the other one really reshapes who is immigrating, so who is coming permanently and giving green cards coming into the united states. that is blocking a significant number of family-based immigrants and deployment based i immigrants. those proclamations alone are already significantly reshaping who is coming into the united states, even in the short amount of time they have been in place. from louisiana, a republican. go ahead with your question or comment.

caller: yes, ma'am. trump has been trying to run this country, and the day after he is elected, maxine waters is out there saying impeach, impeach. this man was already trying to do his work, and behind his back the fbi and the whole crew was already trying to push him out. immigration, he was right. in.on't know who is coming these people have no vaccinations whatsoever. we don't know what they are bringing in. we don't know what diseases they -- carrying, or if they are and much less, we also are the drug lords coming

through. what kind ofierce, immigrants are trying to come to the united states? her point on to president trump being obstructed from what he wanted to accomplish in office, i cannot speak to other areas, but for immigration that is certainly not true. the president, this period in time has been extraordinary for immigration. we have never seen an administration be so active on immigration. a report was published over the summer that categorized 400 executive actions that this administration has made on immigration, so they certainly were able to push forward their administration agenda, if nothing else. and then on who is coming to the united states, we have placeicant vetting in regarding immigrants coming into the united states, even those that cross at the southern

border. as far as their health or vaccination goes, everyone coming in has to see a doctor who has been certified by the federal government and have all the checks, have all the vaccinations. it is certainly not something we are very concerned about. we've that immigrants in a stash te that immigrants -- we ve immigrants to an extraordinary extent before they can receive benefits. host: democratic caller. caller: good morning. i was an immigration lawyer, but i lost my license in omaha, nebraska. with 1000ly dealt cases. i had a few mexican cases, and the state had a harsh view on that because they considered

mexicans not eligible. they took my license. they said that mexicans don't get asylum. what do you mean? that was about 15 years ago, around 2004. memories book called from an immigration lawyer, under my grandpa's name, clemente cruz. good political a climate to have immigrants, because it is a republican state and there are a lot of people who dislike people of color coming into the state. when i was aniced immigration lawyer, at first in the 1990's there were actually people.ices to help

but as time went on, even in the bush administration, we were thinking, you know, because he was for immigration, there may be a chance to help people in the process to get here. 9/11, everything just changed. the whole outlook on immigrant population coming and go was demonized, and it kept getting worse and worse. pierceet's have sarah weigh in on that. guest: i completely agree with what you identified as humanitarian benefits being restricted over time. any migrants who are being deported from the interior of the united states, or even those who are arriving at our borders, who are seeking asylum, they are all placed into our immigration court system, where they go

before an administration judge and they argue for why they should stay in the united states. immigration used to have significantly more discretion than they have today. that has been over the period of decades, that there are discretion has gone away to the point where even if they see a case that they believe merit stay in the united states, if that individual does not give a very -- does not meet a very specific definition of asylum, which has been extremely narrowed over the course of the trump, if that individual does not fit into that very specific benefit, then they are going to be issued a deportation order, which is why during the trump administration not only have we seen a significant increase in the number of completed immigration court cases, we have also seen a significant increase , an even higher increase in the number of removal orders issued. host: let's go to ed of pleasant

valley, new york, a republican. caller: i've just got a couple of questions for you. i am not anti-immigration. i worked in a higher education place in the early 2000's. and we had a major hiring process. they told us this was the key to hiring. it was everybody but blocks or whites. we hired somewheres around 30 some people, always -- all different levels, down to -- from secretarial down to labor. about six month later, be being a union officer, we got called in. the problem was that the new personnel director found out that all these social security numbers were not right. and they had the problem, the union didn't have the problem. the bottom line was they let most people go. some were saved, some got green cards. i'm friends with two brothers that came into this country. back in the early 1990's, they

went to a lawyer in california, $10,000, each of them paid to get papers that they thought were illegal. this debtors the problem -- that is the problem, some believe that they are citizens and they are not. the bottom line is we have to straighten out our immigration. i feel for everybody that wants to get here, but we have a lot of people in this country suffering right now, and we are going to take on more? i tell the public until this country to go to your local services office someday and see what happens. it is unbelievable. i found a wallet in the middle of a street one day, and there were three different identification kurds for one individual from three different states. -- identification cards for one individual from three different states. we do not know who these people

are, three different states and three different names on the same picture on the id. we really have a problem in this country, and i'm not against it -- there are people i know who came here, they're really good people. but we have americans who are not working. and whether we going to do with more people at this point in this country right now? host: ok, sarah? fraud, ande is individual -- issue of individuals supposedly trying to help individuals through the immigration system but really falsely doing so, and it is a huge problem because if you file a false immigration application, it has huge implications for any benefits you might qualify for. you could end up in deportation proceedings because you thought you were following the legal process from someone who presented themselves as a rightful immigration attorney. issue, thea huge

fact that the immigration system is so restricted and confusing really fosters this type of fraud going on and can be a big problem. said the extent that ed were people think their lawful immigrants in order -- and are not actually, that is a big problem. it is a huge issue that we have 11 million unauthorized individuals in the united states. more than 50% of them have actually been living in the united states for more than 10 years. it is really incredible that we are one of the most developed nations on the planet and we cannot just identify 11 million individuals in the united states, give them lawful status, recognize that they are working in the united states, and really rectify this wrong. danville,tta, virginia, democratic caller. caller: i am calling concerning president trump. said's something a man

about trump, said about us black and saidn he get up these things, he is trying to correct the black man's mind. we need to get rid of trump. i am 84 years old. in the united states when i was young, it was rough and rugged. when trump got in there, it is worse than that. we have to do something about that in the united states thank you. in schererville indiana. independent. caller: i am unusual here. i am a libertarian. i have been opposed to immigration ever since i learned about it as a sophomore in union

college, and i am 83 years old. host: ok. caller: i do not think we ought to have an immigration law at all. carefulwe ought to have -- of protecting our borders as people come in, but i think everybody in the world comes here because they think it is better here. my ancestry on my mother side came in the 1740's. fortunately, he was an indentured servant, but fortunately he was white because everyone else in annapolis was african, real africans at that point. and he got away. do note people i talk to have roots like that. my webster roots go back to the 17th century. host: so what are you saying,

that there should not be immigration now? caller: we have got to abolish the immigration law that we have. i think it is against any principle that the united states was founded on. host: sarah pierce, any thoughts? guest: sure. i hardly disagree -- i disagree with evan. i think the united states as a nation of immigrants, and the principal we were founded on embraces emigration, as we have throughout u.s. history. if you want to approach it more academically, there are rigorous economic studies that show immigration is a huge improvement for our country, in particular the united states, that it grows our economy, in addition to the things you the ways itre, contributes culturally, and to our society on the ground appeared there is also the fact that the united states is an aging economy.

we need immigration, need workers, otherwise we are going to have big problems in the future with an unequal society, a significantly aged society. but i think that a lot of the discomfort for immigration comes from the idea that maybe our immigration laws are not serving the united states. there seems to be a lack of public trust in the u.s. immigration laws, and i think a lot of reason for that is the laws are very outdated, and they even dictate the numbers. for example, each -- it is said the most common type of temporary worker, it is set in that we have 81,000 new h-1b visas issued each year, and i think would foster a lot more public trust if we had an immigration system that adjusted itself and fluctuated with the market. visasample, if the h-1b

could increase when the economy is strong and then decrease in a time like now when we're going through a crisis and might not need as many workers. the onus really is on congress to reform our immigration laws in a way that would really foster public trust. kentucky, joe is watching, republican. your turn. caller: yes, ma'am. i have got a few questions for sarah. host: go ahead. caller: sarah, do you live next of these illegal immigrants that you are speaking of on tv? in an area, i live of high emigration and also used to be an immigration attorney working with immigrants. caller: right. so you have been to college, so i assume you are real educated, right? guest: yes, i have been to college. caller: right. do you know what happens when you put a lot of -- let's see,

how do i put it so i am not rude --lower educated people into the workforce, like taking smaller jobs, kids do not get to go to work when they're trying to get through high school? you know, some of these illegal immigrants you talk about that do not commit no crime, i know that is really not true. i understand you got to say it because you are on tv and that is what you are doing, that is your spiel. but some of us have relatives that we lost because of mexicans i got out. you know, whatever they do. host: hang on the line and listen to sarah pierce's response. guest: sure, so i completely agree, there are unauthorized immigrants and immigrants that commit crimes in the united states. what i was trying to say earlier is that they do not commit crimes at the same rate as u.s.

that this and i think administration has tried to change our perception of that by -- raisinging the stories of unauthorized immigrants committing crimes, but we have had many rigorous studies show that they actually commit crimes at lower rates than u.s. nationals. joe, you're touching on something i talked about earlier, too, that, yes, it is true that sometimes immigration depresses the wages or increases the competitiveness of the job market for lower wage or lower filled jobs, and that is a problem that the government needs to address. eva, now to michigan, democratic color. caller: good morning, sarah. i live in a small community. they grow apples and peaches and

things like this, and we have a lot of hispanic workers. in the other people that live in this community are not going to go out and do these jobs. i do not know what your opinion is on it, but i have been in germany before and after they tore the wall down there, and this wall on the border really concerns me. what are your opinions on it, sarah? agriculture,yes, immigration is extremely vital for agriculture, and regarding touching onu are kind of the symbolism of the wall, which is interesting on both sides, right, the trump administration and president trump supporters view the wall as kind of a subaltern gesture. we are going to wall off the united states and attacked the united states, were individuals on the other sides see it even as a symbol of racism but also

significantly concerning efforts to build a divide in our society. the wall itself really is not a very effective at what president trump is trying to accomplish. many of the flows to the southern border during president been's time in office have humanitarian where people are seeking asylum. and according to u.s. law, at least prior to the pandemic, if you are on u.s. land, you can seek asylum. so there are areas of the border where there is u.s. land in front of the border wall and migrants can come up to that land and ask for asylum and border patrol officers would be obligated to take them in. is not sense, the wall accomplishing what president trump sought to achieve. a wall can be effective in certain areas of the border if you are trying to drive traffic in certain directions, but as a

whole, the wall is definitely not the most effective tool for security. host: james is in arlington, texas, independent. caller: yeah, sarah, i just want to say that it is obvious that you're biased in this. like you said, you are a lawyer so you have been paid to represent immigrants. you said earlier that they were vetted, even illegal immigrants, i mean, even ones carrying drugs across the border, they stop and fed them and let them carry the drugs. it is obvious you are biased, and it is ridiculous. have you ever been in mexico and seen how run down it is? have you been to los angeles and seen what happens when massive amounts of immigrants come to one area and just run it down? there is a place here in arlington, the trash place, and you go there and tracked on work in the mornings, and for some reason, if it is a black driver,

they get to pick their helpers. a black person or a white person, you have a chance to go on out. but whenever it is a mexican driver, they will pick nothing else but a mexican. i cannot believe they get away with that. it is just ridiculous for you to set up there and say that the illegals are paid. we do not even know what they are carrying across the border, saying they are vetted and they do not have diseases in all this stuff. it is obvious you are lying. host: let's give sarah pierce a chance to respond. guest: i am sorry you see it that way, james. it is true that i used to be an immigration attorney. i am no longer an immigration attorney. i can seevetting, where we might have misunderstood each other. immigrants are vetted as long as they are coming through some sort of lawful pathway, including asylum, individuals applying for asylum at the southern border are vetted

before they are given any sort of immigration benefits in the united states and even before then. it is true, if someone sneaks across the southern border and evades detection, you are right, they're not getting vetted. but the fact is that our southern border is more secure than it has ever been before in u.s. history, and the vast majority of individuals approaching the southern border are not asking for asylum, they are trying to get caught by border patrol and then end up going through that vetting process. so it is true, if someone sneaks across the southern border, they are not vetted. we do not know enough about them. but the population that are successfully doing that is getting smaller and smaller. host: you can learn more about the migration policy institute if an hour and 40

minutes.