. . . . i can't think of a betr guest to have on thanksgiving week than you. welcome to our discussions this

afternoon. a. >> thank you for having me on the show. >> as i read your book -- and i recommend it because i am now almost 18 months into my term at aei, and while at my previous businesses it's good to be reminded of what makes leadership work in any institution of any size and you have a lot of great lessons about how to be a good leader and one has to do with having a purpose and the other with innovation and integrity but i want to ask you of all these lessons, what do you think is the most important in that you u rely on as your go to attributes that made you so successful? >> the first chapter in the book

[inaudible] >> this part is important because you seem to address and i want you to for the readers and listeners, why the for-profit firms that make money and develop a profit and pay shareholders, they are most successful when they see a higher purpose. >> this is the single biggest misunderstanding about business and capitalism. until we get this corrected, capitalism is always going to be sustained. motivations are seen [inaudible] of course this has to make money. if businesses don't, they will fail. but that doesn't mean that it is its purpose. a metaphor, a good way to explain it is my body has to

produce red blood cells and if i stop producing them, i'm going to die. just because i have to make red blood cells doesn't mean the purpose of my life is to produce red blood cells. it is a necessary condition but it doesn't define who i am. similarly, businesses have to make money. but it's about creating value for other people. that's why it exists, to create value for other people and if it does a good job creating these products and services that its customers want, then the business will flourish and make money for its investors. because business gets put into this narrow box it's all about making money. it's so ought if you think about it because if you ask what the purpose of a doctor is, they make money in society but they don't say i'm going to make as much as possible even if that is

true that is in the ethics that stand behind medicine. the ethics behind medicine are to heal people. teachers educate. architects design buildings. all of the professions go back to some kind of a value creation that they are doing in the world to serve other people. and business is the greatest value in the world so we should be talking about it in terms of its value creation for its customers and the jobs it creates for its employees and the residual effects that happen when it trades with suppliers. they are benefiting and prospering as a result. it creates value for all of these constituents and stakeholders. so, we do not do service by simply trying to explain

business as making as much money as possible. we lose the argument as soon we say that for most people. >> you had a very straightforward purpose as i think i understand to bring better quality and natural foods to people so they could purchase them. that is a great purpose and u.s. published -- you led to people eating better more wholesome food. isn't that something day proud of in that achievement? >> the stated purpose today, let me explain a couple things. when i started the business with my girlfriend when i was 24 and she was 20 we were just a couple of kids really and we didn't have a state in higher purpose. we were passionate about natural organic foods in. if you ask me the higher

purpose, i would have said sure. we just want to sell healthy food and earn a living and have some fun doing it. yes what, those things all still exist at whole foods. in general that is part of who we are. our purpose has deepened in the last two years, so our official stated purpose now is to nourish people and that has a lot of different depths by how you define nourish. there's different layers. i do think every business has a higher purpose. i know hundreds of entrepreneurs, very few start their business just to get rich. they would like to get rich and

they are passionate about something. people like steve jobs, bill gates, they were passionate about something they wanted to create and they had to get going on it. they made a lot of money because they created value for other people. >> when you tell the story of purpose and getting the message down throughout to every member you tell a story that i had never heard of and i think of myself as a little bit of a historian about the administration. when he was touring the center he ran into somebody that was mopping the floor and cleaning up the place and he said what are you doing. i'm helping to get a man on the moon. i want to ask you i've struggled with this at aei.

how do you get everyone in the building, how do you get that message out and do you refer to people how do you do that? >> that is a good question. it isn't easy. i think the first thing is the leadership ha passed to anybodyt purpose. people pay so much more attention to what you do and how you show up in the world and what you say. witnessing hypocrisy people are always looking to call me a hypocrite and see how. it's important that i and other leaders and body the higher purpose. you have to walk the walk and talk the talk.

we have about 100,000 people now that work in the company so we are getting the turnover and continued growth and adding on ten to 20,000 new team members every year. how do you keep the purpose and institutionalize it? it has to be part of the orientation and something that you talk about all the time. it's important that the leaders reference what they are doing back to the purpose of the organization. we show that and talk about that all the time and because you have new people coming in, you can never take it for granted. when you have a resilient and powerful culture it does a lot of the work for you because other people that are there that want to internalize the values and purpose of the organization, they act like an immune system for the organization. it's been around for a long time and they have a culture based on

their values and purpose. and if it is a good, strong culture than you can expect the organization to do its work in getting people converted over. you don't have a good culture of one and people don't think you are living up to it it won't be effective. it's something that i will give you an analogy right now. i have no doubt in my mind the united states has a higher purpose. it's there in the declaration of independence, it's there on the bill of rights and yet it's about being taught, and a lot of the country no longer resonates with the founding purpose of america. so, we've done a very poor job continuing to communicate to the higher purpose of the united states. >> a great scholar wrote a book.

you have to teach those values and people recognize what is the source. we have a whole unit that's focused on that and we want to do more of that on college campuses. so communicate, communicate is right for my perspective. it is a problem as a country. >> i want to ask about leading with love because i like that about your book, tomac. you have a way in which you encourage positive collaboration and positive feedback from one worker to another. can you tell a little bit about that? you conclude by saying tell us about that. >> first i would say that love

is often times not associated with corporations, which in fact are generally seen as sort of heartless and part of their image problem they have in the world. it's due to the metaphors we have about the businesses being hypercompetitive. we use the metaphors to explain business and darwinian metaphors to explain business. when you are at war there is not much place for this. we have a thanksgiving we can express love and may be around christmas time, but check it at the door when you come into work because we are at war, we've got to win. and that is unfortunate because it isn't week which is what many people associate it with. it isn't just a feminine virtue but it's also a masculine virtue. it's the glue that holds an organization together. if you get two things to people,

they will love you of your organ and stay with it decade after decade. this is one of the first things amazon noticed. [inaudible] if you give people purpose and a sense that they are cared about and loved, that's what people want. if you can meet both of those, then you will have a great organization. so, appreciation is one way. this is something whole foods does and if you've got nothing else out of my talk, remember this one thing, enter with appreciation in your organization. every time we have a meeting, we wrap it up by doing a voluntary appreciation. they are not mandatory, nobody has to do it. but what happens is you do an

authentic appreciation of somebody else, you can do an authentic appreciation without opening your heart. and people know the difference when somebody is just saying something and when they are actually feeling that and expressing that from their heart. when you do the authentic appreciation, others will pick up on it. in addition, it is hard [inaudible] if i thought someone was sort of a jerk and he's there saying he appreciates the things i do and he's doing it in an authentic way and not just sort of sucking up to me, then i will rethink who he is and look at him with fresh eyes. i will tell you a story. appreciation has become a big deal that with my leadership a couple of years ago we were

spending so much time at the end of the meetings that we had to limited the number of appreciations and said you can't appreciate everybody. we are going to limit you to three appreciations. and that still kept it too long so we said you get one. make it count. if you have others, good, but do them outside of this meeting. so we can get the appreciations with one down to about 30 minutes. but try it. it's powerful and i've had other organizations telling me everything changed after that. >> you mentioned a couple of times the fact that you have merged with amazon and there's been this quite remarkable coming together. i wanted you to tell us a little bit about that and how it's

going and whether there've been any tensions. he always has an empty chair for the customers. do i have that right, and tell us a little bit about the market. >> it's part of the amazon story whether they still do that or not i'm not sure. we want to think about the merger between the companies. it's a little bit like a marriage and i say that because you are coming together voluntarily for mutual gain

benefits and hopefully because you really admire the other person. i use the metaphor like a whirlwind romance. i tell that story. when you get married, and most people will know what i'm talking about, if you get married, you are going to change. it's just inevitable because the other person is going to influence you and you will gradually become -- you will gradually change and amazon has had a big impact. we gradually changed but on the other hand we have a resilient culture. in a healthy marriage there is me, you and us. they all three have to be healthy. we have to stay whole foods and

fulfill our core values. we have a unique special culture. amazon has respect to that. now the culture is evolving but not because they are cramming a bunch of things down our throat but we are adopting these processes that are influencing us. previously in the merger i would say we were more intuitive in our decision-making. it's very data-driven in their decision-making process. a lot of times we would be giving our opinions and theories and they would say show us the data. we are not going to make the decision unless you show the data and they would write up a six page argument with data supporting it. if you do a good job of that, then you will get the decision that you want and if you don't do a good job, you will be sent

back to the drawing board and told no so they've begun to think more that way. we still have our intuition and take on things but they are more data-driven. so how is the merger giving going back to that, it's going pretty well because it is evolving and emma amazon things long terlong-term and we are won the fourth price reduction something we badly needed to do before the merger. they had a lot of cool technology. i go through in the book and talk about how it's been a win for all of the stakeholders for the team members amazon after the merger created this $15 an hour which basically you have to increase everybody else's pay and level everybody up. that was expensive.

we counted the cost and first it would be $250 million. are you sure you want to do that. that was great for the mardell and the team members loved it. we had 85,000 that got a raise in pay. so we went to the team members and the supplier suppliers and d selling to amazon that were not before so there's that greater distribution. for the investors from the time we began to the time we closed got a 4 billion-dollar increase in the valuation so that was a win for them. for all of the community aspects as well hopefully this philanthropy and things we are doing will support that and will not cramp that at all with an added additional donation in some cases. >> do you worry not only about your situation but generally

about the potential negative impact that makes it harder to lead the way you want to lead? >> the biggest challenge as a result of this merger has been probably one or two or three companies in the world that gets scrutinized. everything they do is under a microscope, so whole foods now everything we do is under the microscope and that is pretty bizarre. we've also got to think about anything we say or do we don't want that to negatively impact amazon and of course what's interesting is that i think i was talking to the guy that reports to amazon one time and he says when you married into this family, you have a bunch of

in-laws now and some people don't like them but you have to live with that because you are part of the family now. i thought that was a clever way of putting it that when people have added amazon they've added whole foods and vice a versa, so that is different. i have to be guarded a little bit what i say in an area like this because somebody will hear it somewhere so i have to be careful. i don't want any headlines showing up here. >> you have in appendix about the cultural intelligences. it's shifted a little bit from your company. we are going to come back to the leadership companies but i do want to ask about this in an effort to get to your view about where we are as a country.

you talk about three kinds of the traditional, the modern and then the progressive. and it's the old sort of move based focused on the states and church and liberals, sort of liberal america that's open in society and it's this little step further but then you talk about what that is and it's like the divide is something that gets us past the decision that is plaguing america. or maybe i'm wrong. >> this is a good framework and those of you that are interested in following up, we have an appendix at the end of the book that goes into some detail about this. the chances are the authors might write about --

>> you looked like you were laying the ground for something greater. >> we have a book we are talking about called conscious america. if you think about it in terms of worldviews the first is a more traditional worldview which is based on family and country and it has a traditional value about religion and family and it harkens back to the constitution and the declaration of independence. we are comfortable in that. and the kind of heroes that you might get in the traditionalist views like ronald reagan and winston churchill and william buckley, people like that. so the modernist worldview a

traditional would have a lot more belief and sort of truth and reveals through revelations whereas the modernist is much more scientific. it's more the enlightenment of progress through science and reason and capitalism. 30% of the population in the united states is traditional and that is where they are anchored and about 50% is anchored in modernism so some would be thomas jefferson, ben franklin, john f. kennedy, milton friedman in some ways archetype. and guys like bill gates that are other strong modernists.

each of these comes out and as it evolves they reject the worldview that came before them. modernism rejected base and religion so many believed in reason and science. they don't believe in scripture or revelation. part of it there's a rejection that comes before. there's this alignment between traditionalist ethics and the modern science that drove america for many decades and so the progressivism came along then it talks about the flaws and failures in the previous

worldviews. modernism didn't completely realize the limitations of modernity and so the environmental movement has come out of that because it has been producing economic progress and there are externalities coming out of that so people tend to have strong environmental views. in the last few years we've had and antiracism movement and the whole wok world ideology is a progressive mindset and basically arguing that america has inconsistent with its founding values and equality of all and that we haven't done a good enough job overcoming

racism and having inclusivity so that has been in the media a lot. of course i see that we have made a lot of progress in america but we still have some problems, so i would say the progressive view is globalist in the sense that it's very concerned about inequality suffering by any place in the world so there is a strong anti-modernist streak to the progressivism. a distrust of science except when it serves their science and a mistrust of progress. they don't like capitalism so there is that streak to it.

we have 30% traditionalist and about 20% progressive because they dominate academia and the media in terms of their actual numbers. but that is the cultural war we have them struggling with each other so how do we move past it. we have to go post progressive. and the answer in all of these worldviews have dignities and disasters. there's good things about it and bad things about it. we have to honor the good things in all of these worldviews. so, for example we have to recognize that we cannot throw out capitalism and replace it

with socialism. we wrote a book on it in the conscious leadership which is capitalism but done in a much more conscious way taking into account the higher purpose stakeholders being done in a very conscious way. so, we need to take the best of these worldviews and make sure that we can recognize this worldview. bigotry, sexism, homophobia, that can be accurate sometimes of traditional values. it can be captured by the special-interest and it can be in different or elitist or

uncaring so to speak, overly materialistic then we look at the disasters in the progressivism and reverse patriotism so we are no longer patriotic the worst country that's ever existed. very authoritarian. it can be self-righteous, telling everybody criticizing and canceling people out, different views. we clearly see a lot of the progressivism right now. but they are also the progressivism that we need to integrate to go forward in a healthy way so we need to integrate the best worldviews and minimize the worst of these and we would call that post progressivism or the integral

worldview. >> we see that divide all the time, and i've wanted to ask about where you see it in your stores. if you look at the map of america, this red and blue, rural and urban divide and also the elites versus the non- elites you have stores in both and workers and customers in both. i wondered from your perspective after all of these years being right in the middle of that, is that divide as pronounced and difficult and painful as it looks or do we exaggerate because of the media attention? >> i think there is a pretty big divide. 2020 ha 2020 has been a terriblr because of covid and everybody getting locked up and angry and frustrated into people losing

their jobs and their businesses failing. it's people on edge. we saw the riots. a number of stores damaged. there were some damage t damagee nights ago in portland. several were damaged in these peaceful protests. so we have the controversy this summer about dress code and because whole foods has always had this -- we don't want you to promote whatever your political causes are whether it be black lives matter, make america great again, whatever it is, check it at the door. we want you serving the customers and not operating politics. that's been controversial. we had a blowup last week because we didn't want canadian

team members to be wearing [inaudible] in the congress we had them condemn whole markets. they just wanted official dressing. when you get the government threatening to shut you down you will change your dress code, and we did for canada. i'm not sure that would have happened here. everything is magnified because of that amazon connection. >> the news about disturbances at the stores, it seems to me are you eager to be more active in portland? >> we know the protests and

disturbances. under the period of time that i worked there we believed in a certain order and respect of property. is that lost in those communities? >> it's being challenged, to put it that way. our team members have to be safe. we've had a stores broken into and we have given quick instructions in new york, seattle, portland, oakland and several other cities as well we've had to disturbances and protocols in place to protect the team members. we've had team members run right out the back door. some people come in with baseball bats and start hitting the cash registers and going into the wine department and

getting wine bottles and just being destructive. business has to be -- commerce is based on peace and rule of law. i think that then is challenged a little bit and is being challenged. so we are kind of been a rocky place in america right now. and we are defunding the police in a lot of communities and so it is harder to do business. we have to hire a lot more security guards. >> i did want to ask about the innovation and startup culture in america. this is a question we are getting from the audience. do you think that you could do what you did all those years ago as easily or is the restriction on the ability to start a business, grow a business and be free to establish a successful

enterprise, do you feel that's lost? >> that's a good question. i've been doing this for 42 years and it's pretty easy to start a business back in 1978. they would come around and say where is your health department certificate. then where is your building permit. they came around but they didn't shut us down. we just had to pay a fee. >> you tell a lot about business people that kept focusing on what they wanted to achieve. they kept their eye on that goal. >> business people have to constantly innovate around bureaucracy and rules and figure

out ways so they can stay in business. that's reality. in the whole history of business it is one way of dealing with you need rules and regulations so the stores are not broken into. on the other hand you can regulate business so it's harder to do this and then the whole society becomes less wealthy and prosperous. >> i want to go back to the book again. one of the things i love about it is you don't only tell through your story but through a hundred others, business people that led with these values. i guess i wanted to ask isn't it your sense about these kind of leadership values are on the rise or more prevalent than you

realized or do you thinkhat you are fighting ill in the culture that needs to be changed dramatically? >> it is evolving otherwise the socialists will take over is the way i see it. and that is the path. they talk about trickle-down wealth but it is trickle up poverty it to just impoverish is everything. the academic community is generally hostile to business. if you read mccloskey's work you will see all of the minority groups have been persecuted, the jews and chinese are the best examples of this. the aristocrats for declares he, the intellectuals, they've

always despised this as sort of they are trading, making a profit, they have long motivations. to study history [inaudible] that was an attack on business culture in a way. so, now the universities are you go through there and they are so progressive and anti-capitalist when i speak at the universities for example, sometimes i get hair colorhecklers and sometimey disinvited me but if i'm speaking at a business school, the kids love the message you can do well and you can be

prosperous and fulfill a higher purpose. but the professors are skeptical and they want to argue with me about it. there are so many interesting things about the business schools. if you think about it, robert, who teaches in those schools, doctors. who teaches in law school, former lawyers. who teaches in business schools? not businesspeople, intellectuals that have never been in business at all. it's interesting. and they don't understand business or entrepreneurship and often times can be hostile towards what they are teaching. so that is a particular challenge. >> how many people do you employ?

>> about 100,000 now. >> that is valuable. that is the pathway up. that is a greater contribution to the flourishing than the universities in some ways. i'm a former welfare administrator, as i mentioned before, so i provided jobs and counted on that when the economy was strong. retail grocers and all kinds of industries. that was the best thing we could have. >> capitalism or as i prefer mccloskey's word for innovation is some, it is the greatest thing that humanity has created. if you go back 200 years ago when it was beginning to pick up steam, 94% of everybody lived on

less than two dollars a day. only 6% made more than two dollars a day and that is today's dollars. the average lifespan was 30 and now it is 72.6 and advanced countries closer to 80. literacy rates across the planet were 88%, the other 12%. if you read the book enlightenment now you will see documentation after documentation about how much the world has progressed. it has been science and technology combined with innovation is as the entrepreneurs took the scientific discoveries and operationalized them to make our lives better. it's the greatest thing humanities have done. the entrepreneurs are the ones that create great progress. and then they are universally vilified to the most part if you look at the studies and the

polls, people don't trust business. business is greedy and selfish and only care about making money so it can't be trusted. it corrupts the political culture. it's fundamentally a bad thing. that's why we are seeing this move because they see it as inherently corrupt. that's wrong. capitalism is the greatest thing. we've told a bad narrative and let the enemies of business and capitalism print out a narrative about us that's wrong and inaccurate and doing tremendous damage to the minds of young people. we have to counter that. >> i also think the victim of our success when things go bad is the market, not the market but unemployment goes down to where it's been in the past.

all of a sudden people are going to realize the benefits of this prosperous economy. >> they may not realize it. the reality is what we've done the last 200 years, humanity for the most part had very slow progress and that is because business people were basically so regulated the genie never got out of the bottle until the enlightenment. and so for a brief period of time the intellectuals at least went neutral on business and so maybe there were some dividends and then we exploded. we would stagnate and begin to regress. i'm not saying the whole civilization would collapse but it wouldn't progress and it woud begin to stagnate and decline gradually if we put in some of

these green new deal policies you would start to see us go backwards. >> you are looking at the longer term and not caught up in this crisis but you've mentioned the covid a couple of times and i just want to get your sense of where we are in the communities that you serve. are we -- and your observation of the pharmaceutical industry and others that have grown so quickly to develop a vaccine. are you feeling we are seeing light at the end of the tunnel and things will get better and the other thing i hate to ask you a sort of mundane business question i thought some people in the grocery business there were some upticks because people were eating at home more but that isn't happening in your

business? >> no, our sales are way up. the media reports things wrong for two reasons about whole foods. first, our transaction count is down, traffic counts are down but two reasons. first, we do a lot of business and prepare foods. office workers come in for lunch and with offices closed down we didn't get that traffic so the traffic has been down. second, our online business has tripled. it's gone up 300%. so the actual sales are way up. it is just inaccurately reported. so we have done well during covid. i think all supermarket chains have because restaurants -- people have made a transition temporarily, i believe, to not eating out as much, eating more at home and that has been good for supermarkets. whole foods, walmart, kroger,

all of them. >> and you've been able to adjust to the covid restrictions and government interventions -- what is your view on that? >> first of all, whole foods has the duty and responsibility to keep customers and team members save so i'm proud of the fact that our company was out in front of a lot of this and partly because amazon pushed us hard to be out in front. we have been recognized in a couple different publications as the safest supermarkets in america during covid. most people have copied a lot of what we were first doing two masks and disinfecting and temperature testing and things like that. and i think we have been successful with the number of infections it's relatively small. obviously if i said how much it

would be headlines, but pretty low. let's make no mistake about it it's been a difficult year even with our sales up. everybody wearing a mask and social distancing. nobody is hugging. [inaudible] people are not socializing as much. i would say we've made a lot of cultural deposits a number of years through. >> two more questions. in the book you said you like to hire and promote from within but you don't like to overdo that. there is a percentage, 80 or 75% because you know bringing people in from outside invigorates the culture. tell us a little bit about the hiring and choosing of team

members. >> it is a balance between if you only hire from within and promote from within, that enhances the culture in the sense that people know if they work hard they can rise up and get ahead. it's been a great place of opportunity since the founding of the company so i've watched people work their way up and it doesn't require a college education to make a lot of money at whole foods. on the other hand if you only promote from within, you will stagnate because you are not getting enough new ideas or innovation from outside this sort of innovation and creativity. on the other hand, if you promote too many people from the outside, then people begin to think you can't get ahead in

this company. the way is to work somewhere else where you would be more appreciated. so approximately about 25% are promoted from outside of the company, and about 75 from within. that's what makes us kind of the right number but that could vary with others i think. >> i wanted to ask a sort of thanksgiving question related to the business and your passion for healthy and wholesome food. we've had a tough year and we may have gatherings that are smaller than usual. what is a product or food that is a main stay at the table that you would recommend? >> i may be a bad person to ask.

i am plant-based -- >> i know i wasn't thinking you were going to say -- what is your go to? >> my go to dish usually is stew with a ton of vegetables in it. >> so that would be on the table at your thanksgiving family meal? >> a lot of vegetables from sweet potatoes to broccoli to cauliflower, whatever vegetables are in season. >> okay. i hope that you have a great thanksgiving and thank you for all you've done. thank you for your book and guidance and leadership and for participating in this conversation this afternoon. >> do you have any final words or anything else we missed that you would want to say?

i always give people that chance if they feel there is a message they want to convey? >> i want to convey a message of hope. america has gone through a difficult time and we are not merely through it and we won't be anytime soon, so i cannot give you any short-term hope, but i am a student of american history and we faced bigger challenges than this one. we have stumbled our way through it but we have gotten through and i think we will get through this, maybe it will just take a few years or longer. but i do think america has a great capacity to renew itself and sometimes we are best with our backs against the walls and forced to make changes. we are forced to make reformations. there is a great underlying love of the country i think we have seen in this cycle.

and i'm very hopeful about the future even if i'm not particularly hopeful about the short-term future although i think we will get past. a year from now we will be passed it and a lot of our normal behavior will be returning which is going to be a good thing. >> i think that's important. we've got to live and go forward and we will get through. thank you very much for joining. we really appreciate it. thanks for all aei does. i'm proud to support you. thank you very much.

>> during a rally in 2018. >> something about calling out and celebrating nationalism before an adoring crowd that i think for a lot of people who watched nationalists rise to power for the fidelity of the people then fo and for the purpf the aggression. it isn't something to bear witness to. i've forgotten how it begins by defining a globalist because historically the rhetoric about globalism and globalists in particular is often fundamentally anti-semitic. in the history of the formation and the nation states often they

emerge in the 18th or 19th century and nationalism through a nation state as a core commitment as many people around the world tend to those that are stateless, so that includes a lot of conspiracy theories that are fundamentally anti-semitic in the sense that they are based on the idea that there is a secret jewish people that control all the money and that the use people have no national attachments and global ties. the rhetoric about globalists coming back harkens back to that

long tradition of the invocati invocation. so there's something really interesting about that there are important critiques of globalization to be made. i think that one of the chief criticisms of the so-called progressives of the 1990s kind of the bill clinton era even into the late 1980s with obama is a kind of unthinking globalism and the sense that certain people would be left behind but that's okay. you know, it's for the best. and it is an enormous number of financiers. people that are watching and admire and feel recognized and

seen by him or thinkin are thint the ways that global response has done a great deal of the widening income inequality around the world. so it's a kind of interesting mix that people are angry about what's going on and what went on with the kind of fantasy of globalization. but for trump to invoke nationalism in the way he does and very much to applaud what he is presenting as a liberal nationalism is the classic work. one of the important things that people that do make that move do what kind of define globalists in this sense of the history as demonic bad people, people who love the nation, and its simply

in the form of patriotism, so the completion of patriotism is like a central move, it is an essential step in urging people to be willing to make sacrifices for the nation that can only be asked in the interest of an authoritarian.

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