were on track for that, more next week were on track for a million doses for the month and we need a bigger supply and we need it quickly and we needed to be reliable so we can serve the people of the city. thank you everyone. >> you are watching book tv on c-span2 every week and with the latest nonfiction books and authors, book tv on c-span2 created by america's television company. today were brought to you by these television companies to provide book tv to viewers as a public service. >> coming up tonight, book tv on c-span2 next technology reporter anna wiener recalls her experience working for a tech startup since san francisco, then authors been turned off, weigh in on silicon valley and the future of technology at the boston book festival. after that wired magazine

stephen leavy reports on the creation, growth and future of facebook. >> we are honored and excited to come full circle hosting not only local authors in our bookstore the culture and silicon valley news for the new yorker in her work has appeared in the atlantic in the magazine among other publications. the technology reporter at the new york times one the award first english business reporting, uber, facebook and other silicon valley giants for the times on cnbc and msnbc. the book signing will be at the back desk right there. and we would appreciate it if you keep the line along the wall to your far right. [applause]

>> i thought they were going to be 20 people here. >> so if this were a congressional hearing. >> the under c-span behavior. >> i'm going to try not to curse tonight, i'm going to try not to you should probably start off, i don't know how many people have actually read in part of the book but i think it would be nice. >> thank you, thank you guys for coming and those who are standing. my frequent customer i think they mean a person needs to go on a run to your and then stop.

thank you guys for coming, this is really nice, i have something toward the end of the book which is a section dear to my heart which is venture capitalist on twitter, is regionally relevant. are there any venture capitalist? they wouldn't dare. >> i see you. >> good, thank you for your service. [laughter] do you think you hate yourself. [laughter] coming in strong for an intake session, but the next day i caught myself following venture capitalist on the microblogging club platform it was not exactly inactive self-care. the venture capitalist were

discussing a universal basic income and it could not look away, they were concerned about the unlock economic potential of the urban poor as icebergs melted and the temperatures take toward uninhabited ability, they were concerned that a.i. specifically the question if they or china would own it would bring about the third world war. they wanted the automation and artificial intelligence jumpstart a renaissance the machine to do the work so the rest of us rendered useless could focus on art. to block grant government services or should a.i. inspire revolution a rationale for owning bunkers in new zealand to stop with guns and peanut butter. i believe in a.i. renaissance as soon as venture capitalist started rolling and partner re-classes as soon as they were automated out of a job. they were prolific, they talk with nobody i knew, sometimes they talked in book but most a they talked ideas, how to submit enlightenment and microeconomic

theories to complex social problems. the future of media, the decline of higher ed and stagnation in the builders mindset. they talked about how to find a good generating ideas to have more things to talk about. despite their feverish advocacy of open markets, deregulation and continuous innovation the venture class cannot be relied upon for nuance of capitalism, they sniped about the structural hypocrisy of criticizing capitalism from a smart phone as if defending capitalism from a smart phone were not grotesque. they saw the world through a kaleidoscope of startups, if you want to eliminate economic inequality the most effective way would be outlaw starting your own company wrote the founder of the accelerator. every local anticapitalist capitalist replied the angel investor. the area is like rome or athens, send your best scholars, learn

from the masters and meet the other most imminent people in your generation and return home with the knowledge and networks that you need. do they know that people can see them? [laughter] the venture capitalist were not above inspiration culture, it is nice of your laughter. >> beautiful works for me. the venture capitalist were not above inspiration culture they suit underinsured recommendations and advise their followers to stay humble, eat healthy, drink less, travel, meditate, work on your marriage, never give up, they preached the gospel of 80 hour work weeks. whenever they denigrated the idea of worklife balance is softer antithetical to the termination necessary for startup success i wondered how many had an executive assistant. a personal assistant, i cannot imagine making millions of dollars each year in choosing to spend my time staring at should

social media. there's almost a phase of the internet addiction, log off an e-mail each other. they do, they talk on whatsapp. then again if the internet was good for anything, was in at this, transparency and action to the mind of the industry elite. there is no better way to know which venture capitalist run their hands over the impact of identity politics or how applying so practices to life in woodside was going. how else to know which members of the venture class defended the founders of entrepreneurs who cannot scale or criticism and perceive themselves as victims of digital mobs. how else to understand the deliberately ideologies and investment strategies of the people transforming society, the people that i was helping make rich. we can cut it there. [applause]

>> the folks that we are talking about. >> i don't know how many folks but i see a few and i'm thinking about probably the beginning of your narrative in your wide-eyed approach after your career in publishing. and from publishing, i'm just wondering what happens, from the beginning, did you actually come in and maybe things are as optimistic as they seem, how did

you come into that. >> is a good discussion, the year 2012 i'm working in publishing i realize people make money in their jobs and this is a revolution to me. i think for a long time, for a while i bought in hard and for a long time i wanted to believe it. there was an intricate down of self-delusion and that lasted for a long time like a game of solitaire. i think they are not funny to me and i think the way people speak in corporate fealty has always been amusing because it has to be funny or it's terribly depressing. but i did not think about writing about it or skewing it

in any critical way or criticizing gently, i think i'm pretty fair and the book i'm not wildly negative, i think i read the meanest part, the venture capitalist don't get a break. >> they can take it if anyone can take it, their middlemen -- >> were both open-minded individuals who could listen to a different narrative. it's just a structural position. >> a lot of the criticism that i hear, new yorkers are coming in and be in their critical approach, i'm wondering if your criticism is unique to how things work around here and if

you are in publishing before and just as right for a spinal tap. >> absolutely. >> i think this is entirely interesting in that workplaces provide literature and could've identified that somebody inside of a workplace. i don't know that it would've written a book about book publishing, many have done so before. many editorialist. >> and sits there and goes to the trapping. >> there is no future in that. the industries are different in ways that are authentic and

economic but i think each has a set of internal rules and norms and the things you take for granted in the social relationship so that you need to have to maintain professional and this might just be to a person that works in business whether network is small. >> twitter. >> except maybe, your career advancement depends on who you're having dinner with on a thursday. >> on twitter everyone's having dinner alone, it's decentralized. i think that you could probably skew the industry, i remember people in the room. >> you got to go for.

>> the reason i wrote a book about tech cannot book publishing i felt that there hadn't been a tone of third person narratives about this particular era there had been about previous eras that were from a similar vantage point of entry level employee and non-technical employee woman. >> is that the number one question. >> so you are a woman. >> what's it like to be a woman. >> i had a first name that wasn't a medium post about how to fire your staff but still have them feel good about the family. there is a lot of literature about tech that did not reflect my own experience.

i think there's a lot of literature about book publishing that reflects experiences in the industry that has not changed for 60 years so it's consistent material. >> my next book is focused on this, two years i spent in book publishing and nobody will buy it. >> book publishing into silicon valley initially -- >> it is still a jump from publishing in credit and i guess that i wonder now. i think a lot of folks you can

go into whatever company and what you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish. >> the feeling of admission. >> tell somebody about the first story. >> the first cut and wanted to work for was a netflix but it was an ev not initially for iphones and was like a library for a monthly fee and i had reached out because i read on the paris review blog that this company had raised $3 million and it was not a series a.

[inaudible] [laughter] o [bleep] -- sorry c-span, this is what the industry will be, it will be netflix for e-books and i want to do that because they could not see a future for myself and books. >> that's a long way for most people in the world. >> is a ton of money for three recent college graduates. but it's not a ton of money for netflix. so the venture capitalist. i'm sure they are cringing. so we don't know anything. so i sort of figured i'd be the book expert and i wrote e-mails to them, i love books, i know it's annoying that i have to keep asking what a back and is but i am a reader and you need somebody like me on staff and

they did not. but they were very kind about it and were like listen there is a company in san francisco i have been using the software the analytic software to see how people were using the app and i was doing very minimal, not even analysis is data collection. and the people who make the software is actually a startup they have fewer than 20 people in the next unicorn, rocketship, a rocketship, i want to be on a rocketship, everybody in book publishing says i think this could potentially make the list. in three years. so rocketship sounded good so i went in interviewed for this coveted the make the analytics product. and that's that.

[laughter] >> what do you want? >> i guess i'm wondering you were inspired, you get into it for whatever but i have to say the thing that a lot of folks in new york or whatever is like on admissions and the mission there for you was the beginning. >> yes. >> i was not a journalist at any point until last year so that skepticism and cynicism i was not reading a lot about the tech industry i knew you had cynical snark from valley wag or you won't believe what the young billionaire wears on sunday and is the same thing he wears every

day. 17 of the same outfits. we not talk a lot about book publishing but coming from the industry where there was no momentum to suddenly be at a 20 person company to matter and feel useful and not only was a useful but contributing in a way that kept the momentum going and i've seen customer support, the geniuses here to build our infrastructure but it was less about the mission of the company then feeling of working on something with the small group of people who i really liked and it was working and that seem so probable you would have this organization of 20 people run by 24 - 25-year-old, it just kept getting better and better anyway this is my pitch i went to go work for a small startup, i think i was really down for that

momentum if not like this will make the world a better place. analytics is fascinating and i personally find this product really interesting and sort of justify it as an extension of my sociology bachelors degree from six years ago. i don't think i was ever like data collection storage, analysis unbeknownst to the user, god knows where that goes, that's making the world better, this is fundamentally interesting in the business education and i think this is an industry that emphasizes individual so i'm not individually quite useful in a way that was tied to the collective effort but was distracting not that i wasn't like perhaps data collection is part of a broader economy, we were not having these conversations. >> you don't get in to the larger implication of what

you're doing. >> no, it's working for your customers, this is awesome you're helping us optimize to achieve whatever goals and it's usually monetization and everyone is stoked because they're making money and you make money and whatever he does not matter, the feedback, this thing that you helped make even though i did not help make it i was helping people use it the thing you're participating is helping us make money, that feels great and it feels great to be like are you having a problem with the software, let me tell you how to fix it, have you ever had knowledge about something it is amazing. to be like i can fix your problems, i've never fixed anyone's problems in any way. there is a lot of intoxicating cultural stuff. >> there is a lot in there, the

hierarchy of customer support is always very interesting to me and i was wondering how eventually we can feel good about your position in that company, was that ever over time, and for the stories in their is a culture so we want to go there and we don't value x and i was wondering if that was over time. >> when they say they have a heavy end he wants to go there. >> the higher thing. >> soft skill, harsco, economy, it's very interesting often soft scale is being told you're not

technical enough and being asked to potentially show more credentials and someone else in your role, i think often this economy is used as a cover for the perpetuation of certain inequities or biased, i think it is a gender, a racialized site economy. and not anyway. >> i think that this idea that is more valuable clearly with the market and having been in the position of hiring people with soft skill jobs or nontechnical jobs is incredibly hard, potentially harder for certain things. and for certain things to find a

mid-level engineer. i don't know i was on both sides of that equation but i think engineering skills are the primary focus, a lot of company perks are oriented toward hiring those employees, you cannot have a product without it, get it but without those people it does lead to an internal hierarchy that can leave a lot of people feeling like second-class citizens, i mention race and class -- race and gender because i think it speaks into the hierarchy so we can influence who will run internally. >> i think that's exactly what i'm getting at, i appreciate you laying that out and i don't think that can be compared a little bit more in the questions

around what should be the most prized possession of the company and he wanted to be hired, fundamental assumption where there being question in the wake of whatever just questioning them. >> what is concerning to me is a completion that is not specific to the value it's like american capitalism bus and feels amplified in this idea that your personal work is directly correlated to your economic output or your economic contribution or your economic value in the marketplace and there is something morally superior about being an engineer and having what is assumed to be a certain mindset or a value system and that has weird -- it

resident thinks it certainly, it is a certain hierarchy and companies but leads to a mindset that is very oriented towards optimizing to the bottom line that is not a humane approach to life or to leadership or to organizations. anyway i'm chatting away. >> i think the leadership -- we get past but what is your next startup, to be referenced but not exactly real in the second ceo who is challenging or interesting and i don't know exactly how to describe this but it seems typical of a lot of

issues that one might have for our leader here, i am wondering at least at the time was he an avatar for problems in leadership tech or did you just see him, how did you sort of proceed this guy. >> from the book. >> the ceo of the second company in san francisco was 24 when i joined the company as 25, obviously worldly experienced and he -- the company had been through wi-fi company under it's an incredibly hard thing to do to run a company many who have dependents or debt or whatever. i do not envy anyone in that

position and obviously use also lacked for that position if you're lucky. but i have a lot of sympathy for someone who is growing up at the same time their learning how to be a ceo and i think the reason i don't name companies and executives there are few but one that i feel the behavior that i sell institutionally as well as individually was a more result of a structural position than any individual failure and i realized that was exculpatory narrative or framework. >> she does not name any of the companies and she names the people -- >> is not to be query or offer a puzzle.

>> more than i want to gesture toward what is a common leadership style, has more to do the incentives of the business models then of the industry in many i told as an adult at another reading, i feel like i'm walking onto these readings with my own book like an american girl doll, here i am with my book, i think it was in new york and someone came up to me and they had read my book in an image how i talk about how early members of my team were brought into a conference room in my manager asked us who are the five smartest people that you know, write their names down and we all did this exercise and

they said look at your list, why don't they work here. >> i'm like why would they work here, it does not make sense there's so many useful things to do in the world, my friends who were in graduate school, they probably would make their way to attack, but why would these people who were smart and talented and interested in other things why would they work at analytics company i'm here because i don't know my purpose in life and i'm trying to figure that out and having a salary and health insurance, and this idea that people that you know should work here because it has economic value, this is what i mean about this completion. >> do you think is how these things work. >> this is the antidote that i'm telling.

>> sorry. >> yes i totally do it's a very long story, i apologize i'm behaving as i should have a one line answer for everything. it came up to me after this event, the same thing happened in my company and another woman that works at the san francisco had tested me too say, this is like déjà vu for me i cannot believe this happened they must've read on the blog post because it was pulled into a room to ask the names of the five people that i know at a totally different company, unrelated ceos are probably not friends and the intellectual culture which i would call anti-employ actual, this is also in the book to the has to do more with people read this

advice and i've never run a company before a ton of money and attentive accountability to their investors and responsibilities to their employees and their trying to figure out how to lead and here's how you can scale hiring a get people for your core team, that will set the tone for the rest of your company, corral your employees into the smartest people they are and push them to recruit them and say will pay you 5 - $8000 per recruit. i tried so hard for people that were not the smartest people that i knew. but anyway, i think the industry has values and you can speak to this as well you maybe have seen this in your book length of the uber. >> it is called super dog by mike eisen available out the bookstore, they will be signing "after words". i think the company cultures are

by the business model and the business incentives and those are shaped by the incentives that interest the capital and prioritization of speed and skill and whatever and coupled with libertarian spirit of the industry that has been incubating if you will for 25 years, 40 years, 2020, longer, 50 years. and you kinda get this weird cultural product that does not value expertise in consideration and research in the complex, i'm so sorry i just want to go in for it. >> is this on c-span. >> it is fair to say -- i guess i'm wondering if there's parts of your experience that you take

with you and i actually appreciate it, journalists are hidden from a lot of tech folks that think tech is doing good for the world and a positive thing and questioning that was dangerous sometimes. i guess i'm wondering the benefit of that if there are parts of the culture and whatever you appreciated took away from your time that you took. >> the heart of the book is ambivalence, there was a lot that i appreciated about, i

don't know if in my 30s i would go back and appreciate the same things to be totally honest, i happen to be the right age and have the right yearnings to be an ideal employee, in my 20s, and 32 like four years ago. in my 20s having just moved here not knowing anyone from a different city, trying to find meaning, run with it, i think what i admired and appreciated was a moderate, the commitment to a common project, collected project if you will, i liked that people hadn't taught me or seem to have a talk to me for a little while i think that is part of the problem people having a taught me that don't necessarily have the authority to have that autonomy or

shouldn't necessarily but there seems to be some potential in that even with the most autonomy just replicates the structures that exist externally and have existed for years but that was exciting to me, there is one more thing that i did and enjoy of startup culture. it's very earnest and detached mockery indeed painful earnestness, i don't know if you can relate. they might be wrong, i generally believe people in texas think they're doing good for the world i think they believe it and i trust them when they say it. what is missing is the problems

are systemic, they are not necessarily rooted individuals although i'd be curious when you're reporting on uber and i don't know if you want to answer this question, you just moved to your next one, do you feel like someone, i feel like uber cannot exist if it did not have this crazy culture, my question should exist and obviously that culture, that should not exist and if you have a culture, maybe that's fine. >> can you forgive him do you see a structural explanation for his behavior in the incentives of the industry and forgiving of

that. >> i think you're getting at the right thing, if you boil down how all of this works you're getting invested in your company and you have to hit the next level whether it's users, revenue or something and for most companies can get kind of desperate and you have to do things. i don't know i think it's baked into how all of this works but i also think there is justification, the people who own the space, the income net, protected in ways that are not necessarily fair and you can believe, i'm not saying this is wrong you can believe in your own reasons for believing in the stuff. >> to go back on my own argument

i think people are in the same structural position and they're not hassles. >> that's not anyone specific. >> you have to be a jerk to be in this industry depending on who the ceo is. >> it seems unfair to answer that. >> sorry i'm sweating right now. >> i'm thinking about of tech clash at this point, that is the moment we are in, the wire phenomenon, some might call troughs of dissolution. >> they're all eating from the troughs of dissolution.

>> it's a gnarly. for a long time and i'm just wondering, i'm just wondering what is the next part of this, are we just going to say tech is bad for a very long period of time, where are we going, tell me the future. i'm just looking for grip not that tech is bad but it is boring and it's unimaginative.

what i mean by that, there could be so much more, forgive me, all the tools are in place for there to be much more interesting vibrant, creative industry, more exploratory, experimental have you not heard this criticism. >> and is not to say that tech companies are not bad and they're doing bad things but i guess i feel like there's so much we haven't tried yet in the industry and is still relatively young, i don't know it's hard to say this generation is so rooted in the past, i don't want to say it's a processional in every way but you gotta work with what you've got.

this is why we haven't tried with respect to untangling the problems we found ourselves in and related to things like privatization, data collection, centralization, the reliance on ad networks, the when everything is hyper customize, the succession was scale like spotify that wipes out -- >> an emergency alert. >> is everything okay. >> if there was an emergency everyone would want to know. [laughter] i'm sorry. i guess i don't know what comes next we have to ship this as the incentives. i feel changes we will have companies for whom the highest

position is to be a monopoly and i don't feel that serve society best and i also feel it's really unimaginative and there's lot happening that is cynical and baked in spirit of circumvention and i'm thinking, i don't mean to pick this outcome is a friend of mine -- i'm choosing the two paths, something like all of these ridesharing apps, lift is useful somebody constantly running late i would prefer to take public transportation but do these products circumvent participation or civic institutions, do they augment them like last mile ridership,

the other example is this one particular camp that has marketed itself as an alternative to a college degree and part of the rationale that you can get a job really quickly the page extremely well in income jump respectable i totally get it, useful, valuable and also a way to avoid student debt that one might incur from a degree in english. this is like my nightmare to reading something, i have an english degree i do not have an english degree. the crisis here, we make it so hard to live that you need to orient your entire life from your teenage years from having your education in this way to get your job that is a social failure, that is not what

education should be necessarily in a functional and rich society, i think you have the student debt crisis, totally legitimate that you would want to launch themselves into a different career track to pay off their debt and avoid debt but the startup model is to circumvent social institution and prioritize in a functional society be a public good or service. or transportation. this is my pitch for different model, i think things have to change for that business and it should be less exciting to people to not be the only option. >> families are going to be way bigger when you're outside of the existing model but be part of what the dissolutions of what people don't want to go into the public sector in the income net

companies, it is stuck in what it is they're not creating something new in their content and being after status quo and the idea that you can break. >> you work at a newspaper and i work at a magazine. clearly this has infiltrated. there are certain things there is room for a reason, not tried to defend the dmv website, did they have my info, did they not, this is like relapse. it'll be interesting show up in three months. but i do think that tech comes to value speed and scale in something or perhaps better at experience at least get me on the spiritual level. also on this social level as

processes and something that builds over time as a collective effort that is reliant, i'm thinking to your earlier question about tech versus publishing, this is an example i used before and i becoming a windup doll, one that is dying in a map is something you continuously change that you push your minimal viable product, you iterate, you ship a patch or whatever i'm not in industry anymore, i can speak like an idiot but you actually when your book is done it is done and there's a reason it takes a long and they have to copy editors go through and you have your editor and multiple eyes on the product, when it's done you don't want to rush the or expedite certain things for the sake of quality, i guess

this is my feverish defense of the book in a bookstore. i do think the products are values of the industry and our culture doesn't necessarily value from this or small scale, small businesses. look at your cities. [laughter] look around, tech is like an amplification of a social moment. >> there are a lot of people i like to get a few questions and, start thinking and will ask if you lost ones. and i have a few that i would like to ask questions.

>> were you leery -- why. [inaudible] [laughter] >> not all tech people #. [laughter] we spent too much time on the internet. >> you don't actually have to into the question. >> of a section in the book, i went to edm when i need to stay awake and i cannot drink any more caffeine or if i need to get pumped, i don't do anything that needs to be pumped, i wrote my book and you can tell when i was really blasting it. it's really motivating. whatever. i think edm as an energy, i

think it can be made quickly in its music -- out annoying not a journalist why do you think everyone loves it read there somebody in the audience that i would love to ask. >> kyle. >> there very expensive, it's really hard to run a practice and imagine getting a drum set, it's much easier to make music on a computer if you live in a city. >> i feel like that's happening all over the edm exploded in 2008 and into 2000 and that also coincides -- [laughter] i don't know, there is an amazing profile i believe from jessica but i could be wrong i'm probably wrong, whomever is by about a vici, i've never said

that out loud. >> it's incredible and it explains subculture of somebody who has never been to a medium concert in like could not stand the drugs to be on the edm concert. anyway i recommend reading that. >> another question what will it take to get tech ceos to question the solutions and philosophy with the narrative. meaning of technological and tech will be the solution based on the worlds problems. i think mark zuckerberg, his solution, it's more facebook, it

is the past. >> mark zuckerberg's house solutions to the problems that he created. >> even if i don't beat up on mark and i think the largest thing is the answer to our problems is more of what we were doing in the underlying assumption it is not true, will that ever change or do you think that is the direction we are going? >> i don't know if i knew what could change ceos minds i would be so wealthy and i would not be here i would be rolling in money. [laughter] >> in facebook's the feds, i'm

going to get canceled for this. facebook does has unprecedented problems to deal with, i think for me the question let's assume facebook exist and mark zuckerberg will continue to lead the company, what does this mean for facebook to responsibly deal with itself and for me because of my perspective that is a question about content moderation and speed, just because you can upload a video instantaneously does not mean you should be able to, same with youtube what would it mean to throttle user generated content. what would it mean if you had your content moderators full-time staff with full-time benefits with mental health benefits if necessary if you pay them a living salary and you invest in research to the

repercussions, what would it mean to have experts in your regional experts for all the places where facebook exist. if you are taking the steps, i don't have a diagnosis for facebook i made that up. for facebook to invest in a solution to itself with total and utter collapse of facebook, facebook for the consumer forget about the business side but the data collection it was participating to give an option for data retention with whose data shared with, i suspect a lot of people would not care but i suspect a lot of people would care and this could lead to the erosion of facebook as a business. and you would probably get a nice social platform where people post articles and no one cared.

it would mean the collapse of the functional entity. in terms of changing the world in the mindset the question that comes with that, for whom and to what end and what cost. and there's no incentive for people to behave differently and mark zuckerberg you know what would be great if we spent all of our money on making our contractors full-time hires. and the question becomes, what is the lovers that exist and i think they're incredibly minimal coming of regulation and then you have the collective leverage of people inside these companies who might say we don't want to work on something and we want to push for whatever policy and we want these workers to organize in any way.

, that becomes a question, what does it mean for a person to organize, they have a visa or something with health insurance or something to do with facebook paying them fat salaries, whatever. i think these are all bigger questions and just like any one company or industry. >> tell your friend i have no idea. >> does anybody have any questions. >> i would love to hear what you're all thinking. [inaudible conversations] >> i was curious whether you had a medium response and to create

a bridge in that way and tell the story of the people there and does anybody reach out to you in a way that you are not expecting. >> anybody. >> that's an interesting and exciting especially people working in the industry and observation in his personal. i've heard from people, nothing surprised actually, i think whatever you write about something people have a lot of opinions about, people are saying this is not political,

there's too much personal story, not enough personal story, but i think the thing that always surprises me and people reach out i had the exact same situation but i worked in a different company in a totally different year, that to me is obviously self-serving and underscores my point that these are systemic issues. but i still remain surprised by that because it's a personal book, you want to believe that these things only happen to you and it can be devastating when this is a systemic pattern. >> wells. >> systemic piece like a big part that you stress in the book, use inexperience and how

that plays in to ship not going well. i'm just curious in previous companies and previous areas you had to work your way up to get to the top, do you think there's a world in which young people being in charge of a company or an entity could work or is this particular data tech or is that recipe for failure. >> that's a great question, could young people lead a political movement. [laughter] >> i don't think that age has much to do with it. i think it has more to do with the values attached to it. i think with tech technology is an obsolete in many cases. i think people are excited about

youth because it's the newest thing people are interested in technology. and i think the industry also has a historical slant and if you were working in politics and another industry, you would want to do the research and in some tradition, tech posted that for different reasons and anti-institutional or fancies itself as such and obviously we can get into different things, the use people who can behave in certain ways who are eight-team and distinguished. we know somebody who acts like a baby boomer period . . .

>> the book comes out of the nasa that i wrote for a magazine that started out as a book review and morphed into these anecdotes from my own life that i wrote to entertain my friend. when it came out i enjoyed writing it but hadn't approached my work life as a literary inquiry.

a lot of people in tax credit i figured i would write about it and maybe it was a running joke with friends of publishing like you are going to write a novel. so i tried to put it on the back burner in a critical way and after the 2016 election i had a feeling that it was going to change. i thought this is going to take

forever and this was sort of inevitable and after the election it felt things were going to change and it felt more urgent to write about it because i felt i no longer could take for granted what was there and i think my own feeling started to shift. i was doing content moderation when more right-wing material was surfacing and the game felt like it was over for me. my work made me feel bad and i didn't know if the trade-off was worth it.

i just started to feel like i had aged out of my particular situation and when i looked around and started to think of okay where am i going with this, what is the trajectory for someone like me, i had trouble feeling good about my options. it's not that it wasn't attainable. i think i could have done anything, not to be arrogant but this is an industry if you believe and try and are a white woman with a college degree from a liberal arts university you are rewarded for nothing in some ways. [laughter] but i think my personal feelings shifted and the conversation shifted and it felt urgent in a way that i did not anticipate.

>> i wondered if it was a conscious decision to write the novel the other two novels are based on real facts and people so i'm just wondering. the other was silicon valley. i was curious if that came up. >> this is a what he just industry.

they really do not like criticism and they are not used to it either. i thought about writing it as a novel. people would ignore they would undermine it in some other way so it's important to write it as nonfiction it's important that it not be misread as satire because there is a lot of stuff that is funny but the book is documentation and seeing how things are and how people are and how they speak could be read as satire and i feel strongly that is about me.

[laughter] so i wanted it to be a personal story and not a reported piece in part knowing my own strengths and staying in my own lane kind of thing. we are -- we should do one or two more. >> i do so many podcasts i'm just ready to talk for an hour. [laughter] >> a lot of the books are personal no, no, it's an

interesting question. it's a document like about my life in my 20s and this thing happened afterwards like what do you think this means, should i be worried about this. this conversation happened over three drinks. am i about to become an executive. [laughter] so it felt like i was reading this sort of i have close friends and it's like reading a diary and this record of my own optimism then increasingly reading my own disillusionment and frustration and anger in a lot of ways. especially writing it in 2017 and 2018 i was very angry about things happening in the world

and industry. with friends of mine and the book is from 2012 to 2016 so writing that was hard. i knew i was so close to it i had to try to be detached. it was like the most emotionally honest for the long term and that anger often clarifies into some other position but it would probably take a while for me to understand, or an insight so i guess i feel great affection and frustration with this past version of myself for wanting the wrong things and i don't know. i think that is like anyone that does research on themselves in this way. i have to sort of treat it like a research project. it wasn't until i interviewed former colleagues that i got

really mad and i think that is because of who i am like a cowardly person constantly trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and being protective of people who don't deserve it and wouldn't do the same for me, not that it has to be reciprocal but i'm constantly going to mass for people who don't have evidence they deserve it. talking to other people about shared experiences, and theirs there'swere enraging in some cad again these are not my stories they are places i spent time and people i spend time with. i hope at some point my journalistic work not necessarily the specifics of the sort of thing i can highlight as a journalist but i think that generally it was more of this

sorting through emotional stuff of being in my 20s. i don't know if we have to wait for the boom microphone. i wonder if you can find more meaning in your work now and if so, why? >> i do but i don't want to say not that it is a more meaningful career than being a product manager. i think that for me i found work that feels like something that makes sense for me that is interesting and exciting. a lot of what was exciting made

be interested in being an employee and to stay in the industry that's still interesting to me so i just found a better way to engage with it which is writing about it. it's like a stay in your own lane kind of thing. that's meaningful to me but i don't think there's any sort of empirical value to one or another. it's a personal question. i think that would be a bad one. [laughter] >> i feel lucky to have found a place that makes sense right now. i don't want to take it for

granted. everyone please give a big round of applause. [applause] i think she's going to be signing books thank you for coming and listening. this was quite long.

this runs 45 minutes. as always it is a true privilege to be both a part of boston book festival and a media figure