>> good evening. welcome to tonight's virtual program.

we are disgusting -- discussing the atomic bomb. we are immensely honored to host tonight's speakers lesley blume the author of the new book "fallout" and join the conversation by adam gopnik. i am the editor programming at the brooklyn historical society and while we wish we could welcome me to her physical location i'm still honored and have the privilege to welcome you to our virtual program. we look forward to hopefully having you join us for more in the coming weeks. before we get to the subject of tonight's program i want to share a little bit about the things we have coming up in things to look forward to in more programs you may be interested in joining us for. we will be hosting next week deborah teachout anticorruption

expert and former new york state attorney general candidate who will be sharing her new book. they will be exploring the connection between big money and the impact on our democracy on august 11. following that we will be hosting a conversation with jeffrey toobin discussing his new book which continues in the exploration we've been doing of recent history of the republican party in the modern american conservative. we are also proud to partner on an upcoming series, 100 years -- which will be kicking off august 18 the 100th year anniversary. this discussion of body power welcoming raquel willis to discuss issues pertaining to

bodies throughout time and how they continue to be rife with contention. we look toward two hosting many more virtual programs at to learn more about the offerings will have for you at our web site. in just a moment albie welcoming tonight's speakers to the virtual stage. this is a powerful conversation i'm looking forward to and tomorrow is the 75th anniversary of the dropping of the atomic bomb in hiroshima and tonight is the 25th anniversary of -- these are events that shaped much of the 20th century and well we discussed the events themselves and their immediate impact we are also talking about the role of journalism and sharing the stories so we could truly understand potential of atomic warfare the human cost and the

danger it posed. if i think on the passing of -- do we have the pleasure of hosting two years ago i wanted to share photo of his kids the work of the journalist to comfort the afflicted so today inner landscape of fake news such a narrative of the potential danger of misinformation and propaganda and how journalism can cut through to see the truth is something we do. without further duet like to welcome tonight's speakers. we are very honored and glad to have them joining us tonight. they will be joined by lesley blume who is the author of "fallout." she is an award-winning journalist historian and "new york times" best-selling author. her work has appeared in "vanity fair" "new york times" "the wall street journal" "wall street journal" magazine the los angeles review of looks pairs

the daily vogue "the news york times" style magazine and many many more. she will be joining conversation by adam gopnik has been writing for "the new yorker" since 19 -- he has written hundreds of essays from personal memoirs reviews and profiles a much fiction humor. as the conversation unfolds i want to remind you that we will be taking questions. if you have any questions for speakers you can submit them via the q&a box at the bottom of your screen and the subject of tonight's discussion is lesley blume's veaux "fallout." if you'd like to learn more about the book or purchase a copy you can do so in the chat. without further ado please

welcome lesley blume and adam gopnik. thank you both for being here. looking forward to this conversation in thank you all for being here. >> thank you for hosting and adam thank you for doing this. >> delighted to do it lesley. first of all congratulations on extraordinary book. i will open up the hardcover. the hiroshima of cover-up and by the way can be hiroshima or her russian mutt. >> i mix them up and i shouldn't but it should be hiroshima. >> it's a lovely small moment in the book where the editor of "the new yorker" says i have learned a new way have to pronounce it. you have to say her russian mutt not hiroshima. it's an extraordinary book.

it's about a catastrophic event that more importantly about the coverage of that event and how it turned into words. you call it the hiroshima cover-up. i have as you know lesley a particular and very parochial interest in this book. it's very much about the history of "the new yorker" and the evolution and development of "the new yorker" but he forwarded to "the new yorker" and how the internal dynamics of "the new yorker" shape this book in many ways what do you mean by the cover-up? what was the state of play when john hersey went off to japan to do the reporting and his legendary -- which filled an entire issue of "the new yorker" in and the first time it's ever happened a year after the bombing. >> you were a sounding board for me since the beginning and when i first tried researching the projects i didn't realize how a

cover-up would play a role in this narrative at all. i just wanted the back story. nobody ever looked at how he got the story in the first place. his guarded my career as a production coordinator and we learned how the story comes down to logistics and whoever controls the crowd controls the story. when i started looking at how much of general macarthur impacted total domination of japan i realized how impossible it would then to give in as an independent reporters opposed to getting in and the more i research the subject i came across historical accounts and administrative and how much the

japanese press and the magnitude of the cover-up. it's been addressed previously but never to the extent i felt that it should have been and ended up being extremely essential. >> what were they covering up lesley in the censorship? >> interestingly the government and present in particular seem to be ecstatically advertising in the night they announced the mega-bomb on hiroshima. it was the biggest bomb in the history of warfare. the government released a picture of the cloud and the landscape devastation but what they were didn't pick up on was there was weirdly no reporting on the human toll. nobody knew was happening to

human beings who were amongst the only humans. >> and still to this day. let's talk about "the new yorker" in 1945 and where it was. as we discussed many times "the new yorker" was in transition at that moment when hersey began the reporting. it had changed in the course of four years from 1941 through the onset of the war and pearl harbor to the end of the war. as you write beautifully it had been essentially not entirely but essentially humor in local

reporting magazine noted for its fiction in its elegance and style of reporting but still very much in the initial imprint offense version and then the war broke out. one editor in particular i think that an outside role in making the magazine take on a much more ambitious than magisterial role in its reporting. >> boatswain sean and harold roth even though the magazine started 20 years earlier in these humor magazines they never at that point had any operations we paralleled the news widow report the news but he had been introduced before that. once pearl harbor happened that was it.

harold roth them onto one of his co-editors quote nothing feels funny anymore. >> many of the writers were on hand went off to war and found themselves as writers and artists. i think about a.j. liebling who was a local feature writer who went off and became a -- a one-off to report the war in north africa and the normandy invasion and the rest of it and there was a whole generation who made that trip. >> they had correspondents all over the world and many theaters of war. they had a deep relationship with the war department and their public relations operations. >> mckelway whose work i once edited was working for curtis

lemay and npr throughout the whole war so he is a lynchpin for "the new yorker" operation. >> there's a lot of overlap like that. a handful of the correspondence and artists were in the armed forces and "the new yorker" ran a profile on military and sometimes the editors commissioned stories from military figures and sometimes in public relations to keep things cozy with the war department. for the most part they were serious. they were in the mix very much so. i always loved the description of the "unquote hunch man a correspondent in the field and he didn't know but he just knew

there would be one. >> he believed in as writers. but why john hersey? hirsi was not born and bred as "the new yorker." he came from -- what made sean trust that hersey could get this story? >> hirsi was writing for "time" magazine and henry louis was the head of new yorker hated each other. they voluptuously hysterically hated each other. hirsi had been reporting for time in 1939 and loose was grooming him to be the heir apparent to the times inc.. >> i don't mean to interrupt but he was of that type.

he was not like a.j. liebling. he was an elegant figure. >> he was also from yale and also when you read what hersey wrote they are a far cry from what he was writing for "the new yorker" later on. >> as somebody who cares only about literary style i think that's a hugely important point and i want to hold it for a moment. but he had written one hugely significant piece. in historical terms in a credible piece for "the new yorker" for that, right?

>> that's our hirsi did come to "the new yorker." he breaks up with luce because he thinks he's far too chauvinistic for him and he said thanks but no thanks instead of being heir apparent to this virginie media empire he was a freelancer in 1945 but in 1944 he had managed somehow to do the story that william sean had wanted to bring hersey in. ..

i'm sorry, jfk was on his way back from the pacific, he was in new york. one night his edit nightclub. something was at martinique club, he was with his wife jfk is telling her the story of what happened, jfk had been was sliced in half by a japanese destroyer. and she's like i went that story. i was the whole story in its own way. he brings it to the new yorker and they're excited to have it at last. in many ways, that story helped make kennedys a political rare. it was by trotted out by

campaign for every political campaign he had. it also helped john's career >> you mentioned to that old joe kennedy hated the effect it appeared in the new yorker. those not big enough magazine. >> not all the new yorker was little for him but he badgered harold ross into the reader's digest which is another magazine harold despised. i don't know how kennedy twisted his arm but he did syndicate in the reader's digest we got the mass publication of the story after offers son. >> nothing about the new yorker and the warriors is that so-called pony edition. it appeared in a smaller edition that was available

driving up its circulation would buy it in 1946 when it came out. so he has his relationship with sean bates so how does he get to japan and how does he break through the walls of the cover-up? >> guest: like i said, one should never assume it was the first lesson of not just journalism but life. >> is a heparin movie too, remember the desk set she said never assume. [laughter] >> what i did. i initially was a very bad journalists, but because hiroshima does have the story, it has the feeling of an exposé. so i assumed it was him getting in and getting out

somehow is unilateral because of the reporters had a run at a story that way. they went to crazy length to sub's accused, so it's in new york and august 1945 and the bomb explodes any jokes about it. he has mixed feelings about hiroshima, mostly horrify but think is going to end the war. he thanks a criminal reaction. she knows is going to cover the capacity but does not know how just yet. then he has lunch and they talk about coverage for they realize that what had been stories about the human beings. [inaudible] no one was recording on that. it is likely he knew the extent or sum of the extent of the restrictions that were being performed and japanese

reporters by the car the stork sources. it was a very close knit. a lot of her she's a friends and colleagues were part of the occupation press corps. probably knew that the only way in was to paddle a vote from guam into japan. he's going to have to get military clearance to get in. he starts his, it's like he's going to do major recording trip that starts first in china which is the country he was born in. that is going to be accredited in china. and then having them reestablished himself with the military they are, apply clearance to get into tokyo. and it works. he gets cleared. >>'s interest to me, but after reading your wonderful book, leslie, is the reporters in this. in the certain sense of less freedom because everyone expects you to conform to the

needs of the military it's kind of a patriotic reflex that's easy to evoke. the same time more because the whole business of post- vietnam of the military one to keep reporters as far away as humanly possible is not in place yet. they expected him to be traveling all the guys were writing. >> guest: is a buddy system throughout the war. that gave percy this huge advantage when it came to getting clear to get in. he had been with the military during the war. had returned glowing profiles of figures including jack k. he was a committed war hero pretty helped evacuate wounded marines from the islands when he was covering a story i'm sorry covering a battle between u.s. and japanese forces. most significantly perhaps you'd written a really glowing biography of general douglas macarthur and his forces.

which he later wanted to take it out of circulation. that definitely helps the cause when you're applying to general macarthur to come to the country. even though hiroshima and nagasaki were restricted topics, and they were really vetting journalists coming and going into japan. percy may had been seen as a relatively innocuous >> a liable man. >> exactly company man still. >> host: so then he gets to china, he gets to japan. i when he gets to hiroshima finally, tell us about he does that, the extraordinary step is that he talks to people rather than reporting on events. how does he begin to find the people that form the spine of the great pc rights. >> guest: that was incredibly important departure.

it might seem obvious now to just focus on a few individuals to bring up the human element of the story. but it is pretty revolutionary then. especially what he is proposing to deutsche humanize japanese victims and enemy number two after the nasis because they had attacked us directly, right? so when he eventually admitted to tokyo, by the way he did not have free reign there just because he had been the man comes not really being monitored which is macarthur operation there. the fbi knows he's on the ground. they -- at the same time he don't read too much into it. according to everybody, what you ate, what you thought, how many cigarettes you smoke the relay. he gave him clearance to go to hiroshima for two weeks, which

sounds pretty substantial but that includes travel that's 24 to 36 hours of travel to get there in that time. and when he gets there, he has the help of a german priest who had been living there and had returned and spoke english. through this german, and one other japanese minister who had been educated at emory university and spoke english to implement not only give them their own testimony, but also made the introduction from the lack survivors who had been returning to hiroshima to try to rebuild their lives from the ashes did not know how many he'd attributed to be most accurate. >> coming back to something

that occupies nato think frivolously, one of the things that makes hiroshima such important work of journalism and literature, is that percy saw his subject in a novelistic way. and even as you reveal he had a novelistic pattern and template that he was applying to his material. >> guest: it wasn't just enough he was going to show the events from the individual point of view. he decided he was going to -- it had to be six individuals whose lives intersected. and also their lives in the moment to the lead up and exactly where they were at the moment of detonation. and how their paths crossed in the hours and days of the aftermath. sometimes in pretty shocking ways. i'm so basically it was like he was leaving a neighborhood,

a neighborhood narrative and away. from the people who depict ultimately the profile, the testimony were regular folks. what he was doing was creating empathy for them. because american readers not all of them were going to be able to fathom the specifics of how it works or how fathom what follow-up nuclear war looks like. but they would be able to relate to the stories of let's say a young mother with three young school-age kids or young clerk, young dr. going about their business feeding their family, getting on the bus to work at the moment catastrophe strikes. when i was thinking specifically that was you mentioned, gordon wilder novel clearly was the kind gave in the organizing principle with the story of how six strangers

themselves share a moment of common disaster. >> that's theoretical he really have that is inspiration. he was covering in china he had gotten the horrible flu. he was laid up what i china flu, china blue leslie. [laughter] >> guest: the precursor china flu. >> he read the great novel he was recovering in china. and so when he began to try, as we all do when we are reporting something with any kind of ambition, that is the way i can tell the story of these intersecting. >> guest: absolutely gave it a cohesive structure to tell it. he wanted to be novelistic. that really intended to read this work. it's going to be graphic it's going to confront people with effective one called a fourth of july attitude about the bombing comments embarrassment

to the government. everyone had every incentive to pop the potato out of their hand, but if he could make it novelistic and for people to not put it down, she was a trojan horse reporter getting into japan and this was the way to trojan horse the material into people's lives. >> coming back one step, what did, if anything you talk about again, what did the occupying forced from mccarthy's army think he was going to be doing in hiroshima? a sickly doing a follow-up peace about the aftereffects of the bombing. >> they knew he was going down there. there is evidence that he had the military police will he was in hiroshima. there was evidence he was out about talking to people pray but that pointed stars letting other reporters in who weren't not reporting on the aftermath

of hiroshima anymore, was considered an old story by that point. when reporters were admitted, they were there to do the more fluffy stories if you can believe that what it's here at old going to do a fluff peace. three to heimlich with the gardens of hiroshima look like. this is hiroshima coming back, people are back. [inaudible] >> host: with the military subsidy in linux cure fema coming back is having an atomic drama bopped on it. you can see it's not so bad. >> that is the story that they imagine. i think you and i have both reported things, you more viciously than me. me on provincial new york scale. it is hard when you're reporting something not to be altered by the people you meet. do we know the state of mind as the stories which are still hard to read, people not only

losing family but losing their entire assistance of the moment of existenial disbelief. how does it affect psychologically as he's reporting the story? >> is a hardened workhorse moment. not bitter or callous or think that he's been around. >> guest: he reported in europe, lester said he had seen everything from combat to concentration camps. he had seen tokyo rates. someone describes temporary reporters is looking like an ashtray with cigarette butts sticking out of it. and so his frame of reference, lester said he was tough-minded. but when he got to your shema he was horrified by what he'd seen. not because he wasn't used to seeing devastation and let's face it the worst of human nature and healthy doses or unhealthy doses rather, but

because it was a single bomb that had done this. i mean hiroshima was leveled. i do not want to be graphic,. [inaudible] there are still finding remains today they were flats and graveyards. so when he got there he was so disturbed by what he was finding there, that, they were not entirely wrong. there was a regrowth of flora, but things had been on naturally stimulated to grow back. everything about of it was horrible and unnatural. he vowed is going to try to get the reporting done as quickly and get the hell out of there because it was so traumatizing for him. >> host: ended. birdie actually do is writing? becky very smartly, he decided

his going to do his reporting and bring it back to new york. because even though wartime censorship it ended in the states in the fall of 1945, japan and america were still officially at war and the occupation was censorship. and so it happened, he got out of hiroshima and came back to new york. >> this is a kind of detail that only writers relish. but i do. he had his notebooks from the interview. >> so that was another thing that i was really interested in. how did he take his notes. we knew that his protagonists waiter recalled he had taken notes in little notebooks. his notebooks do not exist in his files. but they remember that. and also, my question was on answer is did he do them in shorthand? because he learned shorthand

from sinclair lewis who he had been an assistant to before hand. so it that would because all his protagonists were read the account later on remarked at the extreme accuracy of his memory. and to take notes like that in real time, you have to some kind of a system to be able to get everything. i don't know what happened to the notebooks, i would give anything to know what happened to the notebooks. he did make it from point a to point b enough to create an accurate. >> it's mind boggling this also. before this, any recording. >> there's no voice recordings , no address nothing like that. >> i don't one reporter who talked himself shorthand that very idea in mind to be able to do it.

they know at this point given the skill of the ambition very short order the first anniversary of the bombing and i don't think that they all knew how huge the story was going to be when he started writing it was in front of this monster so when he needed to hear right what he called a white heat. some of his previous books have been written that way parties used to writing about wartime pressure of the deadline. but this was not just that.

he's doing it under enormous pressure because he knows what he is writing they will show the truth about it. >> and so he produces this. and submits it to william shawn. and then sean persuades howard roth to do something that was very ball z. an un- paralleled in this ambition. that is to make it an entire issue of the new yorker. that's what former new york editor called it unprecedented. are you crazy, it's a year later they just gotten back to the footing, coming back to the magazine in the cartoons. >> part of the continuity of their lives as they had to

disrupt that continuity. >> that is the question. again it presents them with a really essential question of what is the purpose of this magazine? is it to continue wartime purpose of fearless reporting doesn't revert entirely to something. >> you tell something that's unforgettable. it's the way howard ross finally persuaded himself to do what liam sean whom he admired was not to the about the future of the magazine but think about the magazines past, it's very dna. >> he looked at his original statement he had published in 19205 and also the prospectus that he had created in 19204 when is trying to convince backers to back the new yorker. one that he had written about himself and was probably in a moment with the magazine was to have a serious purpose

despite the frivolity the nature of levity that this magazine had. it's not going to report without fear or without favor, that the very important line. so harold ross had inspiration for himself but he comes back and he says tashawn, i will give you the green lights. but william shawn is really the driver on this whole story. in terms of having seen her see in the first place championship to run at full length. champ it to write in single issues that were full and starbucks because people would've lost interest once they had their impact. >> it lost its essential form because that was the intersection of the stories, such as one after the other prospective cliffhanger to the story only works with one long peace. and so, ross is convinced to

do it. it is a hell of a gamble. not only are they about to drop this on their readers who have no idea that it is coming. they are in peace time mode at this time for their not expecting a huge story. they are expecting, they are in a moment of recovery regaining the feeling of normalcy or of what albert einstein would say taking easy pleasure without confront the past been there about to be confronted with the past. sue and again because i think it's so vital about the division between reporting fact reporting in some robotic journalistic form and writing with great attention demonstrates that. one of the very important points you make is written about the bomb before, time

life and written about the bomb but is always in terms of these enormous state of man, the destiny, the promise of science. >> exactly, it all existed impossibly high level of rhetorical traction. and the key to absently know retraction anywhere. >> again time but him writing for time, it's time was pretty pronouncing pretty styling. i've had a little swagger to it. this was stripped-down. he said he did not have any outrage he was entirely about laying out the facts, who had given him their testimonies to speak in their own words and just that the story unraveled that way. he felt it was the last of the

story the higher the more effective they're going to be. and it really worked. because by dialing it down from this god's eye point of view, it was the human vantage point to put themselves into the shoes of the people who he in this way to the peas comes out, sean per trace ross, they persuade and percy writes at the speed it still astounding considering the quality of the writing and the testimony. it comes on what happens? speckle percy use the word explosive to describe the reaction. that's not the word i use in my word. the sentiment is accurate.

they create an international. school and there's nothing on the cover of the issue that indicates the content of the issue. you know better than i do, lisa then there decided. >> and so this one, the cover that heaven slated for the august 31 issue was really dreamy park landscape of a summer parking people horseback riding and playing tennis, and allying dreamily by a stream per the new yorker and then had no writing on the cover or even the table of contents to indicate what the contents of the magazine were so the editor decided to keep this cover on there. i couldn't find anything on the record about why they decided to keep this. they wanted to speculate it

doesn't symbolize sleepwalking america's back at leisure again after the war. it looks a lot like what's described in hiroshima it later becomes a refuge for many of the survivors and their dying hours. >> searcy david remnick had the decision to take out all the cartoons in the talk section after 911. that was the case where the cover clearly spoke to the event. it comes out and it sells out the new stance? >> is contraband new yorkers. >> i'm sorry i interrupted you. >> host: just coming back to the main line of the story, i hate to use the word commercially, but it's all anybody talks about >> one of

the contemporary reporters did a report on it until we guarantee you it's all you're going to be talking about. it's going to be true. some papers not just across the country but around the world. abc read verbatim. >> i cannot get over that. it was read verbatim. >> guest: that for actors read it. i had the identity of the actors after it had erred. we would not to interrupt you leslie, but what was it that people learned that they could not have imagined before they read it? >> guest: what it's like to be a human being on the receiving end. you learned what it was right like to be a young mother with the baby in your arms the house glasses on your to dig her way out of the rubble

before fire storm consumes your neighborhood. i don't want to be too graphic. you learned about what happened. >> guest: i think too, if i may come as a point you make people were in certain sense accustomed for this is the end of the most destructive war in human history, early million people were killed. germany was in ruin, london was in ruin, it was not destruction alone that was the story. something about the idea wasn't? destruction on this scale and of this banality is just growing the skin on human flesh. it was imprinting shadows on walls. it was transformational that no one had ever imagined before. and no one understood. speech it was truly apocalyptic. it was rightly after hiroshima with bombs and quickly recognize it was a story not

just of the war but of modern times because humanity finally after many centuries of contriving the worst possible methods of warfare in the most gruesome way possible. some of this is in the book. read it when you're 50 you remember when you're 75. it is really, completely horrific. it's great and ghoulish reminder that it happens individuals. it is composed of individuals so someone is asking, it is a good question to comment was he concerned about nuclear contamination, concerned about quality or later? >> it's unclear if he is worried about it. although other people were.

interestingly, after hiroshima happens, down in new mexico the charity testing site to show how little radiation still was. in japan you can live there forever paid the fact is that trinity site was probably far more contaminated than hiroshima. the point of detonation of the bone the ground is contaminated. hiroshima is generally said that a lot of the radiation is back up into the atmosphere. that said there have been reports that when u.s. occupation forces came into hiroshima their areas around the hyper center because the fact is they did not totally understand what they had created at that point.

spent another thing that strikes to exterminate all the years since, the decade since hiroshima was published, no one is ever really challenged the testimony of its factual basis have they? it's interested in proving when i was doing research try to discredit percy or discredit the testimony they were really embarrassing. and even truman legions of reporters went and tried to cover it up. they were on the ground fact checking. but several things, first of all for several more years after kristine was on the ground but is not easy to get into the interview these protagonists and check with their feeling feeling or the accuracy of their stories. but after occupation listed,

they were international figures. every year on the anniversary of the bombings reporters would contact percy's protagonists and asked them to comment on story none of them to the best of my knowledge ever came forward and said they had been misquoted and nobody ever seems to -- misquoted or had their experiences mischaracterized. and to the best of my knowledge no reporter ever seem to find an in accuracies. >> seems to be an impeccable peace of reporting on the difficult, incredibly resistant circumstances. >> guest: there were a few little things. to be honest that might just be me i started my career as a researcher. and a fact checker. they did not have fact checking and the way that we do today. there is a way to get at in fact check to go back and verify everything, all of the reporting he brought home.

little things for instance, who's one of the protagonists the book profiles him and their daughter coco and her she later took him to task for. just little things, things like that. they were maniacs granular accuracy. and it's whether she put things on a doorway or doorframe. >> something is still good, something that still goes on. krista, after hiroshima, his career goes on it's a very distinguished when p he never writes anything quite on the scale or like this again dezie? >> guest: ironically he always

felt he could tell stories more effectively in fiction than nonfiction. so it's ironic for this immortal nonfiction that he is done. he writes many novels after hiroshima. a lot more interesting and social conscience novels. >> very much in the tradition of sinclair lewis had been his mental early on. so to absolutely. things going to be rediscovered. if just from the sheer content of his interest alone, interested in relations. and you know, there still good reporting that went into, even his fictional works. but again he was never as known paid whenever you see -- with the headline of his obituary was john hersey. [inaudible] 's but we don't have much time left, i could go on talking about the subject indefinitely. when the things we were

talking about not long ago is that got caught up at the end of his career and a kind of plagiarism, i would not call it a scandal, that i actually was witness to. i was already a young editor at the magazine when that took place. and it was the beginning of a new kind of hyper scrutiny that was being given to journalism of all kind, very much a part of the moment we are living in now. you were saying to me, what part of the expectations in journalism and hersey's time was that you had a much broader license to collate, to take things for many places without maniacally crediting the sources at every moment. >> even though hersey's notebooks from the interviews they don't exist among the papers we know. >> if they emerge i want to be

the first to get a crack at them. they do include many of the reports that he referred to when he was writing hiroshima. my research when is going through them, once in a while we remembered seeing and report a description that was very close to how it had ended up in here shema. for instance a report description of the geography being sand shapes with southern rivers. it was an informational pole. so you imagine this reporter who is writing on deadlines who had a fan of materials around him picking and picking and picking, there it was a report he had on the effects of radiation on mechanical growth in here shema. there's one line in this report that says not only did the radiation not kill certain plans, stimulated them.

you see the word stimulated. he pulled that language for his own. so what exactly from the report. three to its accuracy. it's meant to be accurate. you are quoting a source, if you're using source information he pulled additional translators when he was on the ground for special his talk about medical when is looking at the accuracy. if it's a question something like that, plagiarism what is being pulled from informational report that's there for the reference for expert and for journalists. >> we don't have much time i want to now make a radical turn from process to point i guess i would have to say. this is when many people are asking about. how did they feel again comes the question a big debate, did they do the necessary if not right thing by dropping the bomb? or was it a war crime?

how did hersey feel about that and how do you feel about it having everything about the writing of hiroshima? >> guest: in the immediate aftermath percy felt hiroshima, had complicated feelings about it. i horrible inevitable working entity. not exactly what he thought it was a total criminal action. i think later on, he thought that the memory of what happens that hiroshima's what caught the world space from subsequent use of nuclear weapons. whether that's true or not we can definitely say and has been an element, it has been a deterrent. it's actually a controversy you opinion that hiroshima, did not have to happen to

prevent future hiroshima's. my personal feelings are i have still found then government argument about why they could not have dropped a demonstration about an uninhabited area and found it to be inadequate. smut that was oppenheimer as you know. that was oppenheimer's desire. his pronounced desire after the fact that they should have dropped it or at least on an uninhabited area, shipyard or a purely summative they had pressed junkies at the key when they were testing. they could've had international on a different area. one of the arguments said the government that day in a retort was it had been done, they'd assembled the world for the one that did not work it

would have been acutely discredited and that's why they had to drop it on the city with the largely civilian population. >> i guess to, you mentioned is to, it's one of the reasons to be resolutely antiwar as much as we can be. the logic of warfare and the brutality of warfare made it seem if not palatable at least at evitable. for now the firebombing of tokyo as you talked about was actually more destructive in terms of lives and land loss, property loss in the actual bombing of hiroshima. they get caught up in the logic and it an almost impossible conveyor belt to escape from. >> guest: i agree they are ghoulish in different ways. tokyo, i cannot remember the exact square miles that was destroyed in one night with 100,000 lives as gruesome as what you founded hiroshima.

but again, hiroshima was brought on by one single primitive atomic weapon. and our ability to walk up every single accomplishment everything in life and one fell swoop in the future. that is the thing that nuclear tax, apart from more conventional attack. see what live under that shadow still. we have lived under at least it seems to reseed and then come forward and never really disappears. but percy's story is permanent. it makes me proud to have spent my adult life as a new yorker knowing that was a key moment in our history. you've written it in extraordinary book about it i congratulate you. it's rare you see a book a training a court of an idea you share with friends and sadie think there's anything in that? and then becomes a major work

of reporting on its own pre-congratulations, leslie thank you so much. >> guest: thank you my friend. steve went thank you all for being with us. >> >> guest: thank you to the historical society for hosting. see what a big thanks if only we are free to reimport cold right now. we'll talk again soon. >> with nexus menswear preaching book tv programs is a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. tonight we feature current affairs and essays. first in your times journalists stuart talks about a girl scout troop was started four girls living in a home's shelter in new york city. then comedian judy gold talks about free speech and censorship. and later, sa samantha irby shares her thoughts on identity, body image and her writing style. that starts at 8:00 p.m. eastern. enjoy book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2.

>> book tv on cspan2's top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. saturday at 9:00 p.m. eastern, heritage foundation senior fellow, michael gonzales on his book the plot to change america which argues that identity politics is dividing america. and on sunday, at 9:00 p.m. eastern, on "after words", adam deputy chief of staff senator henning read talks about his book kill switch, the rise of the modern senate and the crippling of american democracy breeze interviewed by wall street congressional reporter christina pearson. watch book tv this weekend on cspan2. ♪ ♪ >> use our web spot c-span.org/coronavirus to file the federal response to the coronavirus outbreak. watch a researchable video anytime on demand and track the spread with interactive