life of president james monroe. then, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, frank big losey insights into the bureaus standards and how it operates. later, he has been offering her thoughts on this information during the current pandemic. for more, is a booktv.org or consult your program. >> i'm delighted you joined us. i'm pleased to welcome you to the tonight program sponsored by our friends. we will have the opportunity to learn more about james monroe, the nations president and member of the so-called virginia dynasty that dominated american politics and the american revolution during the 19th century. will talk with his friends about

the new book, james monroe, the life which you can see here. first, we have a special guest who will introduce to the place james monroe, his family and enslaved people called home. the executive director of james and research professor anthropology in men. she also the season hundred of archaeological expeditions and the end of the neighboring tele and codirector of the american project first international team to excavate the ruined after it reopened researchers sometime in the future thank you for joining us this evening. >> thanks, it's a pleasure to be here and who. >> our pleasure indeed. they ask you how things are these days? >> they are good, thank you.

we opened to the public in august and have been outdoors only experienced right now which is to be alarmed things people to do. glad to be back learning about history, being outside, we got a wide open space on our site so people can come and explore plenty of space between people and be there safely so we feel fortunate about that right now. >> that we might start by putting some groundwork, for those in the audience may be unfamiliar with the estate, grieve a brief overview of the history of that place. >> absolutely. delighted to do so. highland is what monroe but in 1793 and he did so at the urging of thomas jefferson. they shared a tiny corner of adjacent properties. about a mile and a half past tele. monroe moved into the house into

the house in 1799. it was a governor's house. is a lot of conversation about it being small, he referred to it as a cabinet capital. the most interesting thing is the story ... i hadn't really been sorted out until fairly recently. ... constructs the house and wrote about it. but for years and years it was mr. understood as a remnant wing of the main house.

that turns out the main house was completely destroyed by fire. we think probably right around beginning of the year 1830, and oddly enough there was nothing we can fine written but it from contemporary sources. you'd think how popular monroe was and still living at that time there would have been a lot of press on the former president's house and he hadn't already moved by then to oak hill, but we have not found any newspaper accounts or things specifically about the house monroe built, having burned. so it's fascinating. the next -- go ahead. >> what do you think explains that absence in the documentary record? that is profound. >> it is profound. a researcher name allison bell did some newspaper' a good long time ago in 1999, and when i picked up the research, pout 15 years later, we had a great

intern go after the same information and i thought all the digitization has has happened in those 15 years we should be able to find. it right? and nothing. and so other researchers have sin pulled up the great' miranda burnett pulled up a letter from the later owner of goodwin to a neighbor, higgen bought and talking about the tension to me after the fire and so forth and writing early in the year 1830. so that could happen. i have firm belief that some day, somebody is going to come up to me, re be giving a talk somewhere or in a library and somebody will walk up and say this is a newspaper article and i found it in i uncle's attic or something and somebody will fine that some day. has to be something that we haven't found yet.

something we don't take into account is how much variety there is, how much variability is there in what got recorded and what didn't and what newspapers are preserved and what ones didn't get preserved. so, it's got to be out there. >> thank you. what's recorded seems like it's in the ground and i think as you were headed archaeologyical expedition. >> it was clear that something was maisel from the landscape from the combination of documentary sources and from the above-ground architectural evidence and some document has been done when william and mary acquired the property in 1974, and a few years in the 1970s there is some goodwork done and

not quite conclusive. and no one picked that up again until after i got there, and started saying, this doesn't quite make sense. let's dig a little deeper, as we say, and started digging rally we circle -- encircled that house and dug around and circled with shovel tests tests andlandn finding the debris in front of the 1870 hours that then we have excavated further and recognized as pretty well matching the insurance documents that monroe had drawn out in 1800-1809 and 1816. you see a well-preserved foundation wall on the left image and on the right you see if you look really closely where the archaeologist is pointing with his trowel of significant

patch of charcoal that is evidence of the burning of the house. so, it's remarkably well-preserved and indecreed by close to the surface. so, a really unusual find and a lost and found -- lost forgotten and found president's home, very odd. he continued to live here on and off and spent more time at oak hill closer to d.c., and then the core of the property was sold, including the house area, in 1826 by the bank of the united states and the land went after. a couple more images. >> yes, please. >> so we understand pretty well the layout of the house. i think it really -- that cabin castle, monroe was not unambitious and he was not

unworldly. he was quite sew tis fix indicated and tim will get -- sophisticated and tim will get to this late he. he sold himself short and shame on us for many years, we bought it. i don't know. i think misunderstanding his health was a part of it but this house as we understand it now was very appropriate for the governor of virginia, which he became just sort of moments after moving here in late in the year in 1799. it was appropriate and it was perfectly large up in. no monticello but those are in fact exceptional houses and it didn't even compare to his later house at oak hill. move on a little. so we currently in pandemic -- his image is before pandemic no masks, but we are currently doing outdoor visits and showing

people, understanding how the site works and tell something stories about how actually the december version is it all at the the battle of trenchon and our work, and we now interpret this as the 1818 presidential guest house and the locus of activity for guests, personal and political, during that period. >> so we have a much greater understanding of the yellow house from 1870s, still there probably covers a portion of the main -- original main house from 1799 but certainly doesn't obscure it and doesn't entirely impact our findings of archaeological remains. so as soon as it's safe to do so we'll use the small amount of grant money we have available to us. grateful recipient to one over

inaugural grands from the archaeological institute of' america and the neh joint program this year which we have had to defer because of the pandemic. we'll be out in at the field begin with a group of william and mary students -- [loss of audio]- we have a lot to still explore, which is really an amazing place because there's still so much left to discover, and i just say, stay tuned, because there's a lot left. insure. >> we look forward to it and thank you so much for laying some groundwork, and we'll see you again in the third act of today's program and if folks who are watching live want to ask you questions we ask them to post those questions in the comments for facebook,

youtube or twitter, because we'll have an opportunity to talk with you again in at bit. so star remarks thank you so much. >> thank you. see you shortly. >> so let learn more about james monroe himself. as i mentioned earlier our guest is tim mcgrath, or two time winner the come door book award for his books john barry an american hero and one book won the samuel award for naval literature and the author of the new book "james monroe a life," a big pick but itself a delightful read. tim, i'm delighted to welcome you to the program. >> thank you, jim, very much for having me and to the staff at mt. vernon as well. >> it's great to see you. i'm excited to talk about all things monroe this evening.

evening.jimbo. you have within two very important books but naval history of the american revolution and the early republic. so, why james monroe? >> well, when my editor brent howard was looking to do another book and was thinking let's good past naval history and come up with something, he says pick a president so we went back and forth, and harry truman's name came up and i wad like not after david mccullough, and then i brought james monroe up? he said why. i said because when i was seven years old he was my favorite president. i had been taken to valley forge not far from where i lived and grew up and the guide was talk bother george washington and but he also got into the -- said there's other people that were here, too, and one of them was another president, james monroe.

and talked about his being wounded at trenton and then coming to valley forge and serving, made me want to learn more and i had a kids are book but monroe in the souvenir shop and off we went. did not know enough about james monroe to hurt me when we get started with this. thought that i knew what a history major would know, but the more we dug into it, it just became, how are people missing this guy? and there's a trinity of experts in their teams in virginia, scott harris with mary washington and now running the museums for mary washington they have but he was at that time the head of the james monroe museum, and his wonderful team. dan creston, who devoted his whole adult life to an know tating and assembling the papers

of james monroe, and again, wonderful team. he has since retired and that's going to bob and heidi has been wonderful there. and then last but certainly not east. >> sara von harper and her work and her staff at highland who have been immensely helpful. sara has taken many a late night call about this or that. so, they really helped fill in what has been a really remarkable story. i mean, the guy was just everywhere. >> speaking of everywhere, most americans might know monroe either as the fifth president or for the monroe doctrine, dealing with the south american and western. hemisphere. can you give us a short sketch of his life. >> i'll do my best. he's the son of a farmer and a carpenter, an artisan, the oldest of three children. he had an older sister.

his parents both died while he was young, and he was pretty much rescued by his uncle, joseph jones, who was a very well-known lawyer, judge, member of the house and a crony of washingtons. and it was jones who made sure he went to william & mary. we there is when the revolution broke out and immediately got involved prior to that and during with the political activities of the rebellious colonists and then joined the continental nave where with the third virginia and was made a lieutenant. among the other officers was an old school mate of his, john marshall. they -- virginia came up to new york right in the -- at the end of the battle of brooklyn and a day or so after he arrived was the battle of kits bay and total loss of new york where washington fame newsily lost his

temperature, what am i going to do with these men? but within a day or so after that the third virginia found themselves in a large skirmish at harlem heights and that's where monroe got his baptism of fire. he was riffleman and it took more time to load which made it difficult, and then he marched in the retreat to new jersey. he had a wonderful passage where he is a lieutenant, he's given the daily assignment one day of, let's see how many men we have left and he writes down less than 3,000 but talks about seeing washington and talks about demomentum so dignified, yet so humble it never left hisman. one of the two officers that volunteered to cross the delaware hours before washington

and the rest of the army did, helping to sleet a skirmish line into -- trenton help was severely wound by a muss excel ball that stayed with him throughout his life that severed an artery and a doctor that he picked up on the way, the man was convinced that they were stealing his livestock. once he saw they were americans he came with the and literally saved monroe's life. he later serves the brandywine, after the winter at valley forge, where he was an aide to lord sterling. and after that he is a little frustrated and he is looking to be moved further and try to be advance his career, but there's only so much room for virginia officers in the continental army. he returns to virginia to get a colonelsy in the militia

and also to study law under thomas jefferson which is no bad way of an education, and then he enters politics. he's a state assemblyman for virginia. he becomes a congressman at 25. senator in the articles of confederation government. just barely 30s. and he's realized we need a strong government but there isn't one, and yet when he is not picked to go to the constitutional convention later at the virginia ratifying convection, patrick henry sees him as a good front man can young guy, good looking, war hero. and he is very -- against the constitution, until it has the bill of rights. later, he is asked by washington while he is a senator, to serve his country and good to france

and serve as minister at the very tail end of the reign of terror. washington believes he is sending him in a very pronounced file to france while he is sending john jay to negotiate the jay treaty and that creates a sears you rupture between washington and monroe. afterwards when he returns he has been re-called and arrives back in adams' time. he feels at loose ends but his friends mad disson and jefferson get him oelectricities to governor and then they send him jefferson sends him to close the deal on the louisiana purchase help spent several years ago -- on diplomatic missions to spain and minister to england, and is re-called by secretary of state madison, and again has a little

year of two of privacy and then becomes governor again, and then serves as madison's secretary of state. also made the secretary of war. holds both positions after washington is gone for a while and then is elected to at the presidency. >> he holds almost every position somebody could hope to hold from the american revolution into the early republic. >> yeah. he pretty much, i believe he held more positions elect and appointed than any other president in our history. >> you have already mentioned jefferson and madison. one thing that struck me as i was reading your book is the ways in which you juxtapose these three mean. in several places you note that jefferson has this deep philosophical mind, madison is a brilliant legal theorist and lawyer, but monroe in your

estimation polled a shrewd sound judgment that served him well throughout the course of his life, and so i kind of wonder how does that observation help us to understand who monroe was and huh he understood himself within the pantheon of the founding generation. >> that's a great question. if your two best friend are jefferson and madison you're rare he going to be accused of being the brightest guy in the room, and -- but the was a young lawyer francis gilmer around 1815-1816 who went to monticello when jefferson was hosting madison and monroe, and watch them observe their conversations during the day, and at the end in his notes he writes that jefferson has the most learning, madison the most brilliant si, and monroe the best judgment. and that is really his strongest suit.

he has impeccable judgment almost all the life and it isn't just a comment to share by a young virginia lawyer. john quincy adams came to believe that as monroe's secretary of state. john calhoun who was a rather wonderful secretary of war and was not yet the poster child for mo slavery issues, made the same comments, and and cabinet meetings he seemed to exhaust his cabinet by listening, and then john quincy adams notes, remind you even of one of president kennedy's advisers after he had died that said that when they were discussing an issue in he cabinet room the last person you wanted to be was the first person kennedy turned to and said what do you think? monroe actually had a cabinet that rivals washington's, and having quincy adams, calhoun, william crawford was a very good

secretary of treasury not a very good loyalist to monroe. and he really made the most of making good judgments, picking good people for the jobs, and he was very deliberate and monroe doctrine is maybe the best example. he is no sooner elected president than congress is pushing special henry clay to get the united states to recognize the new south american, latin american republics and monroe takes it his time. he waits until the moment is just right where he believes the countries is strong enough on its own and has developed enough of a good relationship with great britain and thereby british navy to make that announcement. >> one of the good people this shrewd judgment that comes through is his choice of life partner in elizabeth, his wife. it was clear she was very central in both his personal life and his political life, and can you give us a little sense

of who elizabeth was and the role she played on both the national and the international stage. >> my god, sure, i'd be happy. to that's a great question. monroe marries up he meets her in new york while the american government is there. in fact ron chernow and manual miranda had written but monroe it would have been the courtright sisters and not the scholarship sisters. she is among a trio of very beautiful young ladies for very smart. their father was a successful merchant who lived near wall street. and about ten years younger than monroe. in fact a lot of elizabeth's friends thought that he was beneath her, but something clicked with them and its one of the great love affairs of presidential history. he is utterly devoted to

elizabeth and his children, but i think one of the things that sold me doing the research, while they were in paris, relatively had just arrived, there are two people languishes in french prisons, one is thomas paine who monroe can be pretty open about trying to get out of -- from behind bars, the other is adrian lafayette and he has already lost her mother and sisters to the guillotine and monroe had befriended lafayette. they were on the same battlefield in the battle of brandywine. they were friends and correspondents for years, and monroe just doesn't see how he can do anything overt to get adrian freed, but elizabeth figures it out and one morning

she has their carriage all cleaned up and dresses in her finest clothes and carrying a basket with some bread and food and some wine, has herself driven to the prison, 400-year-old hotel that had been converted by robespierre because the ran out of jail cells and adrian when he hears the turnkey's boots on the step thinks this is her time and is almost giddy with excitement when she finds out elizabeth is there to have a conversation, open things up, and within a few weeks gets adrian released and then monroe is -- takes it it on himself to help her and her son, george washington, lafayette, safely out of france, adrian goes to austriaa and wind up being immediately imprisoned with her husband and washington sends their son to his namesake

to george washington, but that kind of bravery is wonderful to read about monroe's words he write's in his autobiography how she did this. a remarkable lady, very talented and very quiet. she is almost the jacqueline kennedy of the founding first ladies. a bit regal. misrepresented by some as aloof but just the okayed she has an old fashion politeness. >> we can talk but thank you madison administration and the ways in which they entertained but a dolly manipulates was a very powerful figure in d.c. politics in this federal and then followed by james and elizabeth. how did their time in france shape the ways in which they created a small r public

republican court in that period. >> the monroes were both very influenced in france, not just by thinking but by in culture and also by furniture. they bought furniture they actually took the white house after it was re-opened and some of that is still there today. in fact jacqueline kennedy made a point of make sugar that some of those pieces -- making sure that some of the pieces were refinished and put on display but their approach to entertainment was very different. let's face it, how are you going to follow dolly madison. how can you out-dolly madson dolly madson. it's no wonder his once presidential opponent said i just couldn't beat her. just a remarkable lady, and they were very good friends. madison and monroe had been friends since the end of the

revolution, and dolly and elizabeth struck up a very nice friendship. they're exchanging -- here's fruits and some meats and here's some furniture. now that you have abouten married. at one point madison is buying furniture in new york for james and elizabeth, as newly weds-that one of monroe's sisters calls vial, and -- vile and madison proves as a buyer of furniture he is hell ofly legislator and he understands his foibles when he writes a letter to the monroes in france and says, would you please send us some furniture some china or things like that, and he does say we are appreciated if it was elizabeth's -- did most of the work, and almost reads like that line in jaws in the first five minutes where roy scheider says to his assistant, let polly do

the presenting help feel if he couldn'ted and at it neither could his friend. >> a good time to remind the audience you'll have a chance to ask tim questions in the final part of the program, post those on facebook, youtube and twitter. tim, like most virginians like washington, jefferson, madison, and like many americans monroe's life was deeply enter twined with slavery. >> it's our national back eye and that's no pun intended. he is like jefferson and like madison in his examples, someone who rails against slavery and is constantly arguing about it and it's just not any good, but monroe does not free any of his enslaved persons until he is on his death bed ironically on

independence day that he dies. and he is also as governor of virginia, he is presiding over the state when gabrielbell's rebellion occurs occurs and this remarkable man born during the revolution, who has the talents of a black smith so his owner allows them to work in richmond and go to other plantations, and having been captured or taken by the officials for being involved in the stealing of a pig and then getting in a fight with the next door plantations overseer he is branned and he is looking to somehow there should be some revenge here, and underneath the noses of white virginians he is literally beating tile shares into short swords and his

travels allow him to set up a network, as many a -- i'm sure your listeners know, of slaves and his goal is they will kidnap governor monroe, they will kill his owner in a couple of others, but what they want to do is negotiate with for monroe that we'll exchange them for our freedom and then he intends to remain in virginia. and the night of the rebellion, horrendous thunderstorm occurs and two of the plotters lose their nerve and rat gabriel out, and once the ringleaders are caught the executions begin. and monroe writes a passage -- this is in 1800 -- to his mentor and pest friend -- best friend, jefferson, talking about weight this is on him and it's literally almost the cop bin north carolina of early abraham

lincoln, pontius pilate and ham lt. and one of his last sentences where to stay the hand over the discussioner and jefferson writes back about where the stay the hand of the executioner is a good question but he says it should be soon maas if you keep hanging the enslaved you'll start costing me votes in the north. they talk about possibilities of releasing the enslaved rebels to what would be basically indian territory in oklahoma, somewhere far out west. that doesn't work. when monroe is the ambassador to great britain, he strikes up a friendship with william willerforce the driving force to end the slave trade in great britain. there's a wonderful movie about him a few years ago but the neglect to mention william wilberforce is not advocating

slave iry but this attitude of poor in lon dons is right out of charles dickens and ebenezer scrooge. dan preston said in monroe's mind, political theory bring monroe that emancipation should mean colonization and one of the driving force of the american colonization society, helps monrovia being the name for liberia. and when i asked sara this question she said you have to keep in mine that monroe needed money, he sold enslaved persons and when monroe had money he bought them. one of the enslaved persons he purchased right before he went to france was silly hemming -- sally hemming's sister, and he writes about her and it's

believed that her husband was already someone that monroe owned and her children, and at one point he writes that the care of her children, they loved them and very good, they're basically housekeeping sites of slavery, but he said they're costing me money. when joseph jones writes to monroe, that tina has died he is genuinely saddened by it but it's the thing we just can't get our hands around is that these men who spoke of freedom and one of monroe's letters during gabriel's rebellion other, i'm paraphrasing but almost saying these men were fighting for what i wanted, and so how do i distance myself from that when it's by someone of color, and never comes up with the answer. >> when he --es part of the last of the generation trying to

figure out if there is a solution to slavery in mother america and the problem of slavery and the threat of slavery, and one of the concludes is american colonialization, we're just going to export people who are americans who don't want to leave and now they'll go theoretically to liberia. but when he -- after he dies that's when you start to see the transition from -- well, it's a necessary evil to it's a positive good certainly, and i think that does get us to washington actually because as monroe has a complicated relationship with slavery, washington of course is a very powerful slave owner but monroe has a very complicated relationship with washington himself. their relationship begins in revolution but outlasts resident washington death in 1799 and what should we know about their connection? >> well, i think washington

certainly was impressed with monroe's bravery at trenton, and one of the things i found interesting, washington -- monroe, like jefferson, and madison, is constantly land poor and almost poverty stricken by the end of his life, but when monroe and some of the other young men in williamsburg that washington is not taking money for his service to his country and they say win won't take any other, completely unaware that congress is reimbursing washington for at least his expenses. so, he never sees a penny for his service in the continental army. but after trenton, washington makes him a captain right on the spot, and he serves as an aide to lord sterling, one of washington's best generals. those of of you looking at the portrait here of the end of the

baitle of trenton, in the back to the -- behind the horses you can see on the ground a wounded james monroe and washington writes a really terrific letter of reference to monroe when monroe dvded to return to virginia, and so there's a real admiration going back and forth. early when monroe is married elizabeth and as a congressman there's one trip returning after recess where monroe buys a chariot which is not the charlton heston ben-hur version but it has a riding box and elizabeth is extremely pregnant. so here's the monroes and madisons bouncing down country roads from coming down south to virginia, and rutted roads and

madison is saying this person who can't speak very loud but he could shout if he needed to and i'm sure he and monroe were talking politics all the way down with the occasional, are you okay there, liz? from. the when they arrive at mt. vernon and i love that martha washington is not there. it's george washington who seize all this and immediately has elizabeth give him one of the best bedrooms in mt. vernon and drews a bath for her to let her be in complete comfort. what are you hungry for? what would you like the consummate host and able to give elizabeth finally a good night sleep instead of some tank -- tavern while the the of them talk politics. almost a habit that virginia politics made a courtesy call to george washington on their way back. as jefferson's influence on

monroe's political thinking intensifies to the point it's not just jefferson's ideas but monroes as being a agrarian and frank o-phile, they start to drift away and nothing tears it apart further than monroe's years as washington's minister. it's not so much stockholm syndrome for being there so long but he believes in france and does not like great britain washington doesn't do him any favors and he doesn't have john jay communicate with him about this treaty that obviously the french he knew would not like but nobody tells monroe anything. finally jay gives an assignment to john trumbell, the famous painter of the works in the capitol to memorize the jay treaty, and then go to monroe and say, i will recite it for

you about i won't give you a copy, and monroe wisely says then i don't want to hear it and passes it along to a new england fellow in paris that monroe trusts and trumbell can't wait, this is fend's, romans, country men tight and recites the whole thing to this fellow so mon low can fine out and he's serious. at the same time he feels washington is undermining him, monroe is undermining washington, sending correspondence to washington and going back and forth and is caught. when he is brought back in disgrace under adams' administration, secretary of state pickering who is no fan of monroe's, monroe is nursing a grudge and writes a 400 page book with an extreme hi long title but it begins with, a view of the executive "and it's his version of his relationship with

washington and what happened to him in france. so watching this and looking at washington's copy and if you look along the side and the bottom you can see the handwritten transcribe little of -- scribblings of a very angry george washington and i got a kick out of putting them next to each ein book. monroe writes he was invite bid the president accept the office of minister and washington's comments are after several attempts had failed to an continue a more eligible character. another point he said i did no perceive how the declaration of independence supplied at the time of the jay treaty and negotiations and washington's comments are, none are so dull than those who will not perceive and it just goes on and on like that. if this what done right now, jim, i think there would be the initials wts along the pages how angry washington was about this. >> it's remarkable because as

folks may know, washington was not something who wrote in the margins of books. just didn't do it. very rare if he wrote on or two words. this is guns blazing right here and i guess -- back up just a little bit and i want to know why washington sends monroe to france in the first place? by this point, the mid-1790's monroe is a pretty well known partisan of what we call the republican party but the democratic-republican party. the washington administration is trying to avoid war with france and britain. why send monroe to france instead of a more committed federalist? >> he already had a committed federalist there in governor morris and all governor morris did was worsen the relationship between revolutionary france and the united states. the french could not stand him and outside of their food and

wine, morris couldn't stand the french. and he was creating quite a stir and washington had to re-call him. his first pick to be minister was madison, who turned him down help reached out to robert livingston in new york, and livingston turned him down so monroe was his third pick. and initially he would have had to have tipped his hat for what monroe did for him. he immediately won the french over despite having his bags ransacked in the hams and other food stuffs he brought aboard vanished from the dock as soon as he got. the people are still starving 234 -- starving in revolutionary paris but he does his best to put the best foot disburden try

to maintain a stable relationship, but his comments and his approach just start to wear thin. hamilton is openly working to get monroe re-called, and finally when they catch one of the letters that he he has writ, that comes in the pickering's hands there's the thing to end it. and it really is a break. they have already had a bit of a testy relationship. monroe while in congress or the senate, about governor morris. at wasn't point they're talking about maybe sending hamilton be the ambassador to england and mon rove said you should be asking the senate with advise and consent who you're going to pick, and washington writes a very polite version of when i want your advice i'll ask for it. so there has been that breach, and monroe's book doesn't do much to help with it.

ironically a couple of years after the book, when monroe is elected to the forship in georgia -- the governorship in vers in 1799 he wrotes a letter to madison i would like to have a reproachment with washington, and maybe if i post an article in the newspaper where i can print the nice things he said about me and i can add my kind feelings about washington, maybe we can get this back onboard. a couple days after this letter, as you know, i guess around december 13th, washington's riding over his estate and there's been a storm and it's very cold and snow and wet rain and ice and so forth, and he comes into his house, shivering

and freezing, and in fact i saw a wonderful presentation about this by your colleague, samantha snyder, at the historical society of pennsylvania. she made you feel like you were there. but he says to tobias, just read me the paper while he's shivering and he reads the paper that monroe's been elected governor, and washington grows apo electric click and she says calm down and go to bed and washington never got out of bed so they never got the chance to make any reunion or come to terms with each other by the time they died. but monroe is partisan as the come as a politician. if he was alive today he would be on fox news or msnbc every

morning. but he is growing out of bit the time his is secretary of state with madison of. once he is elected presidents he abandons for all intents and purposes and ultra partisan approach at well. he will govern like washington or as joe biden just said the president of all americans, and the proof in the puddinges his tours. he also picked up from washington the importance of image. 4 is wearing throughout the tours a buff waist coast and buff colored birches and still wearing the buckles shoes and a blue jacket and a hat which the museum still has while he is touring, and the counts are going crazy. he is -- it's like a rock star tour. and he is being fed by federalists -- getted by federalist--- -- fêted by

firstists and republicans alike and the detractors their virginiaans who with the richmond inquirer just saying, he's becoming like royalty. but he -- it's really a reunification. this is who we and are it's a federalist newspaper, the sentinel in new england that calls this trip and wound up giving monroe a term for his whole term, the era of good feelings. that's how successful he was and you can lie that at washington's footsteps. >> that was probably the most raasch remarkable part of the -- remarkable part of the book for me. didn't know he took a tour after his presidency and replicating the military uniform and then says the chief magistrate of the country should not be the head of a party but of the country and it is quite remarkable.

>> defines monroe in a much finer way than had he not been elected president or if he had been elected and just kept on with his decades long political beliefs and then the -- scott harris with mary washington, the james monroe museum, the conversation we had after the book, which is probably good thing because i would have stolen this from him like that -- made the comment, when we talk about the monroe doctrine and the back and together, did he write or john quince adams right? -0 both? was it really adams to idea and there's a lot of quincey adams in that. the famous rock when he gave a fourth of jewel speech but america, she does not go out to find dragons to slay but monroe this has been:minimum nate --

culminating in monroe's mind but the monroe doctrine is basically washington's farewell address updated for the 1820s and then the monroe puts it -- it's funny because we other say of george washington, first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts've country men and first ghost writer because he had been dead for 30 years. itself is an extension of washington's believes but now they've been monroes and thanks to the doctrine become our condition -- con-country's. and it's time for audience questions and let's get back to sara and see what is on the audience'sman. one question, mon rove is less transplant. what makes him so opaque, the

like of diaries and et cetera? whoever went -- tim, let's start with you and then sara we'll bring you in. >> he might be -- maybe less opaque because dan's team hasn't finished putting the papers into book form. there are he doesn't wright i write with the still of jefferson doesn't have the counselless diaries done at the same time by washington. but his papered -- access accessible. after the every and mary washington university has been to dank thanks to dan and his team a great many of them for someone to read and another place to fine them if you're interested is national archives has a program called founders online and they have everybody's

documents and papers. monroe may have less than the others because they're still getting these up to date and everything else but they -- you can find a wealth of material and the collections that dan has opportunity, we're up to volume six or seven now and right now getting his first years of his presidency. they're just wonderful and really are fascinating reads. he also suffers because he destroyed his correspondence with elizabeth che total loss because it's out from the comments of friends and people that knew them how much they loved and cared for each other and one last comment. his hand writing is terrible. when i was doing be book on barry, benjamin rush is his doctor and dearest friended and you look at benjamin rush's hand

writing and he's the first doctor for the first he of doctors you cavern read their hand writhing. but james monroe's hand writhing is awful so whenever he has got a secretary writing or there's even a camlets where where elizabeth wrote it. you go thank god my eyes are saved but that has a lot to do with it. . >> sara jive agree that the lack of complete publications of monroe's letters, starting with them being scattered to many repositories is an issue and i'll go back to something i alluded to at the beginning which is i think monroe has been misunderstood which is different than the question of opassty. he has been misunderstood -- henry k adams made said some damning things but the

misunderstanding of monroe's property at highland hag figured into it . no matter what if you thought the little standing house was a wring of a larger main house you look at that little house and you said, he is not ambitious. he's not sophisticated. this isn't a worldly man and people misunderstood hem because of that. that's part of why it's exciting to work on monroe now, is that we have new information about what his property actually was, and how he defined himself through the construction of the house and still to be discovered layout of his property. >> that's terrific. means there's more work to do and mow research out there for our friendsment thank you very much. let see what is next. brent would like to now how died highland become a site of william & mary. >> sure. it was inherited from the last

private owner, st. john's, responsible his death in 1974 and given to william & mary because mon low is an alumnus of william & mary, and so i'm sure there's a lot of discussion prior and debate. we are in the backyard of university of virginia to which monroe also had deep connections. so, it's been part of william & mary since 1974. >> thank you very much. will would like to know is ea of good feelings an accurate reflection of his first years. >> it's an accurate description of his tours and probably the first three years until the panic of 1819 sets in, and then his -- which really is the first great depression in our history, and -- but there again is where monroe comes to the fore he did

a small tour after the tour of the northern states, but then in his third tour he aims to go south and west, and this is not the first time he has gone into the western territories when they have been hit by economic and issues. he did that as a congressman but he is basically -- the powers of an fdr are two centuries away and so he does not have that, but he does bring with him an empathy and his remarks are, i'm with you and will see what congress can do about this, and it is his annual message to congress, what we now call the state of the union address he asks for help and asks them to think out of the box, what can we do to save people who are losing their homes and their savings and the like.

and after 1820, the missouri compromise, that shows his jeffersonon or lyndon johnson-like skills of doing the back door work where the president is not supposes to be involved. ones he is re-elected the era of good feelings comes to an end because he is getting close to eliminating partisanship on a national level and as soon as he starts his second term, he has three candidates to succeed him -- actually four -- as secretary of navy that drops out early, out of henry clay and andrew jackson that are lusting after his job. we talk how awful it is that the day after a presidential election people start running for president. wasn't that different back then. sara can add to that but i think that it's a name we have given to all eight years but realist

only accurate for the first two or three. >> one more question. sara, was it an era of good feelings at places like highland? >> well, in terms of economics and agriculture in the upper thousand places like piedmont, virginia, not really the boon years, the economic engine was in at the deep south and in cotton, and so we cannot avoid the real fact that this was a terrible time of threat, especially for enslaved people on these plantations in the upper south, because the domestic slave trade fueled by the need for labor in the deep south was the biggest looming threat to their existence with family at that time. so i think it's really important to remember that was a critical piece of those areas. >> let's do one more question

and then wrap this up and put a nice bow on it. let's see what is on the final audience member's mind. is that question? from lisa, when you were researching monroe what was the one moment or event where you said, ah-ha, and made you feel like you knew this man better. that's a traffic -- terrific question. a moment of enlightenment, tim start with you and sara bring it home. >> i think there were -- that's a hard one because there were so many that just piled one on top of the other. i'll take one and it is not a letter of monroe but a letter to monroe from rufus king in the

late 1785. monroe is not back in congress. and rufus king writes to him that basically the court right sisters send their regard and it's younger man's talk to a younger man about if you're not around, maybe you're going to lose this young lady. he -- it's sort of a tantalizing monroe has already written in correspondence, from virginia saying we understand you have a girlfriend to bring it up to date speed but within a few weeks after that they get married, and i think that elizabeth's marriage with monroe, that -- i'll say that's my favorite because it's a sign that -- also a sign of his ambition. doesn't waste time making sure

this happens. but he loved her utterly and she the same, and there's one instance in the presidency when ron rose finances are being investigated and he's a lame duck and this, that and the other and there's an oratory with a brand new organ at the unitarian church in washington, everyone is going there by now elizabeth is pretty much almost infirm. had probably maybe rue matic -- rheumatic it there but they show up and they're in the first row and you can just tell she's like, we are not going to just sit here and let them do that and think they won't bother coming. they show up and i think that's as much elizabeth as james, but it's also the two of them together. so, yeah, now that i think of it, rufus king alert might -- letter might be my favorite.

>> sara you dug in pompeii so you went from rome to virginia and also an expert in early american history and was there a moment when you first came into this world where you thought now i understand this place and this man better. >> say really the fact that we don't know it all. the fact that there's still so much to learn. what we do day in and day out, trying to understand history, share history, from different perspectives, include other voices, we can still do this and make significant contributions to how we understand our american past. to me that's not precisely about monroe although i could go deeper about monroe on that but we're still looking at discoveries and making new interpretations that change our understanding of u.s. history, and that's a big thing. >> i think that's a great place to end.

so let's get started. sara, tim, thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise, thank you for being here. >> thank you, jim. everybody, stay safe and healthy during the holiday season. >> absolutely, our pleasure and thanks to the audience. we appreciate you stopping by and thank you for your questions. next week we'll have another talk look -- we'll see you again soon. >> thank you. >> you're watching booktv. created by america's cable television companies. today we're brought to you by these television companies who provide booktv to viewer as a public service.