>> hello, everyone thanks for

joining this evening. i'm delighted that you've done so. i'm of the washington library center and i'm very pleased to welcome you to tonight's program which is cosponsored in part by james monroe highland. over the next hour we will have the opportunity to learn more of the nation's fifth president and a member of the so-called virginia dynasty that dominated american politics and the revolution well into the 19th century. in a few moments i will be talking with historian tim mcgrath about his new book james monroe a life which you can see here. but first we have a special guest will introduce us. the executive director james monroe highland and research professor of anthropology at the college of william and mary and also a seasoned veteran of archaeological expeditions in the united states and europe including monticello and is the

codirector of the anglo-american project the first international team to excavate the city after it reopened when researchers in the 1990s which we should totally do a live stream about sometime in the future. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thanks. it is a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. >> it is our pleasure indeed. how are things these days? >> we reopened to the public and augustine having an outdoors only experience which is to be a welcoming thing for people to do in the public and we are glad to be back learning about history and being outside. we have a wide open space so people can come and explore with plenty of space between people so we feel fortunate about that right now. >> i thought we would start by getting a little bit of ground work under our feet. for those who may be unfamiliar

with the estate would you give us a brief overview of the history of that place? >> delighted to do so. so it is the property that munro bought in 1973 and he did so at the urging of his mentor and jefferson's monticello now they share a tiny corner of the property so just about a half me and a half past monticello. munro moved into the house in 1799 and it was a governor's house. there was a lot of conversation about it being small and he referred to it as a cabin capital with modest honesty and the most interesting thing is that the story hadn't really been sorted out until fairly

recently. you see on the screen here this yellow house on the right is a two-story structure so that is well past munro and then the portion on the left we now know he had to enslaved men and he wrote about it and was understood as a remnant weighing of the main house that turns out it was completely destroyed by fire. we think probably right around the beginning of the year in 1830 and there was nothing we could find written about it from contemporary sources. you think how popular munro was and still living at that time there would have been a lot of press and he had already moved

by then. we didn't find any newspaper accounts. so it's fascinating. if we go to the next slide. >> what do you think explains that? >> it is profound. a researcher did some papers in 1999 and when i picked up the research we had a great intern go after the same information and i thought all of the digitization that happened in the 15 years we should be able to find it. other research has pulled up a letter from the later owner so

that could happen. have been. but you know, i have a firm belief that someday somebody's going to talk to me and i will be giving a talk one day. i found this article back in the archives and somebody's going to find that someday. something we don't take into account is how much variety and variability there is and what newspapers are preserved and which ones did not get preserved. >> can you tell us something

about the article that we should no? >> yes, glad to. it was clear that something was missing from the landscape of the documentary sources and the above ground architectural evidence. it was clear we didn't have this whole story. so in the 1970s there was some good work done and not quite conclusive but you should look in a few more places. so we started digging and we encircled that structure that we saw and we looked all around and

landed on finding the debris in front of that 1870 house that was excavated further that matched the documents that munro had drawn out in 1800, 1809. it's a well preserved foundation wall and you see if you look closely there's a significant patch of charcoal that is evidenced so it is remarkably well preserved. a really unusual find and a lot of forgotten and found in a presidents home. by the time here on and off eventually spent time and then

the property was sold including the area by the bank of the united states and the land that went separately after. i have a couple more images that i would be glad to show you. >> we understand the layout of the house. i mentioned the cabin castle. munro was not ambitious. he was quite sophisticated and we will get to this later. he sold himself short. shame on us. understanding his house was a part of it but as we understand it now it was very appropriate for the governor of virginia which he became after moving

here in 1799. in this image it is before the pandemic but we are currently doing more to show people and understanding how the fight works and telling some stories about the december version that does involve the battle we now interpret this as the locus of activity both personal and political during that experience

we have a much greater understanding and it probably covers a portion of the house but it doesn't impact the archaeological remains. a grateful recipient to one of the inaugural grants from the archaeological we will be out in the field again with a group of students [inaudible]

we have a lot to still explore so stay tuned because there is a lot left. >> thank you so much for laying out the groundwork for us and i should note we will see you again on the third act of the program. and folks out there watching live i want to ask you a question. we ask them to post those in the comments for the opportunity to talk to you a little bit. let's learn more about james munro himself as i mentioned the guest tonight he's a two-time winner of the book award from literature and the american hero and give me a fast ship, the navy and the revolution fc.

as i mentioned he's the author of the book of james munro a life that was published by penguin and this is a big book that is a pleasing place on the show. it's great to see you. i'm excited to talk about all things munro this evening. let's start here. you've written two very important books about naval history of the american revolution and the early republic so why james munro? >> when my editor was hoping to do another book on naval history we went back and forth and harry

truman's name came up after david mcauliffe and i brought james munro up because when i was 7-years-old he was my favorite president taken to valley forge which isn't far from where i lived and grew up. he was talking about obviously george washington and he also got into other people that were there and talked about his being wounded at trenton and coming into valley forge and serving more and more and off we went. i didn't know enough about james munro but we got started with this. i thought i knew what a history major was now but the more we

dug into it it just became how are people missing this and there was a trinity of experts and their team in virginia. he was at that time the head of the james munro museum and dan preston who devoted his life to assembling the papers of james munro, again a wonderful team. he has since retired. then last but certainly not least her work at highland which has been immensely helpful. they really help fill in what's

been a remarkable story. >> speaking of it, most americans might know munro as the munro doctrine. can you give a short sketch of his life so we can get to know him a little bit better and then we can dive into that. >> he's the oldest of three children and had an older sister. his parents died when he was young and he was pretty much rescued by his uncle who was a lawyer, judge. it was jones who made sure he went to william and mary and he got involved in that then during

the continental navy with the third virginia and was made a lieutenant among the other officers. they came up to new york right at the end of the battle of brooklyn and a day or so after he arrived was the battle of the total loss of new york where he said what am i going to do with these men. but after that they found themselves in a pretty large skirmish and that's where munro got his fire meant that he had more accuracy but certainly took a little bit more time which made it difficult and then he launched in the retreat to new

jersey. he had a wonderful passage at one point where he's a lieutenant given a daily assignment he writes down less than 3,000 but at the same time he talks about washington and so dignified yet so humble that it never left his mind. he's one of the two officers that volunteered to cross before washington and the rest of the army helping to lead the skirmish line into trenton. at the battle he was severely wounded. he severed an artery and the man was convinced that the rations were still stealing his

livestock but he said maybe i can save munro's life. he later served after the winter at valley forge after that he's a little frustrated and is looking to be moved further and try to advance his career that there is only so much room for virginia officers in the continental army. he returns to the militia which is no bad way of an education and then he enters politics. he's a state assembly man for virginia. he becomes a congressman and 25 in the article of the confederation government just barely 30s and realizes we need a strong government but

there isn't one and when he's not picked to go to the convention later, patrick henry sees him as a front man, good-looking war hero and he's against the constitution. later he's asked to serve his country and go to france to serve as the minister at the very tail end of the reign of terror. washington believes that he's sending him a very pronounced file while sending john j to negotiate the treaty and that creates a rupture between washington and munro.

afterwards, when he returns, he's been recalled. he feels jefferson and madison get him elected and after that they send him to close the deal on the louisiana purchase. he spent several years on the diplomatic missions to spain and minister to england and he's recalled by secretary of state madison and again has a year or two of privacy and then serves as madison's secretary of state. he's also made the secretary of war and holds those positions then is elected to the presidency. so he holds almost every position somebody could hope to hold into the early republic.

>> he held more positions elected and appointed than any other president in history. a. >> you've already mentioned jefferson and madison and one of the things that struck me is the way in which you juxtaposed these three men. you note jefferson has this deep philosophical mind. madison is a brilliant lawyer about munro in your estimation presents a sound judgment that served him well so i'm kind of wondering how does that help us understand who he was and how he understood himself in the pantheon of the founding generation. a. >> that is a great question. if your two best friends are jefferson and madison you will rarely be accused of being the brightest guy in the room with therewas a young lawyer around ,

1816 who went to monticello at the time when jefferson was hosting madison and munro and watched them observe the conversations during the day and at the end it is jefferson has the most learning and most brilliancy and that's his strongest suit he has impeccable judgment almost all the time throughout and it isn't by john quincy adams who became to believe that after. john calhoun.

and then john quincy adams notes when you are discussing an issue in the cabinet room they had a cabinet that rivals washington's and having quincy adams, calhoun, william crawford who was a very good secretary of treasury he made the most of making the judgments and picking good people for the jobs. the doctrine may be the best example and congress is pushing henry clay to get the united states to recognize the new south american and latin

american republic and munro takes the time until the moment is just right to make that announcement in his social and political life can you give us a bit of a sense of the role she played on both the national and international stage? >> i would be happy to. that is a great question. munro ron sure now -- this song would have been about the court

rights. among a trio of beautiful young ladies that are also very smart. their father was a successful merchant who lived near wall street and about ten years later than munro in fact a lot of elizabeth's friends thought that he was beneath her but something clicked with them and it really is one of the great love affairs of presidential history. he's utterly devoted. there are two people languishing. one is thomas kane who munro can be pretty open about trying to get out of from behind bars. the other is adrienne lafayette

who's already in prison in austria and she has already lost her mother and sisters to the guillotine and munro befriended lafayette and they were on the same battlefield. they were friends and correspondence for years and munro just doesn't see how he can do anything but elizabeth figures it out and one morning she has the carriage cleaned up and dresses in her finest close carrying a basket with some food and wine and has herself driven to a 400-year-old hotel converted because they ran out of jail cells. adrian, when she hears the turnkey up the steps thinking this is her time and is almost

giddy with excitement when she finds out that elizabeth is there to have a conversation to open things up and within a few weeks munro takes it upon himself to help her and her son safely out of france. adrian winds up immediately being imprisoned with her husband but at least she's with her husband. washington sends his son but that kind of bravery is wonderful to read about munro's words as he writes in his autobiography about how she did this, but a remarkable lady, very talented and very quiet. she's almost the jacqueline kennedy of the founding first ladies. i think she is misrepresented by

some but it was just the case if she had an old-fashioned politeness. >> if we can talk for just a moment about the contrast between the madison administration and the ways they entertained because for example a very powerful figure in the dc politics in this period and then they followed by james and elizabeth. how did their time in france kind of shape the ways in which they created a small arm republican court they were both very influenced in france, not just by thinking, but by a culture. they bought furniture that they actually took to the white house after it was reopened. some of that is still there today. in fact kennedy made it a point of seeing that these points were re- furnished and put on

display. but their approach to entertainment was very different. let's face it. how can you have madison. it's no wonder the presidential opponents said i just couldn't beat her. just this remarkable lady and they were very good friends. munro had been friends since the end of the revolution and dolly and elizabeth were exchanging and said okay here's some furniture. at one point madison is buying furniture from new york and one of munro's sister was called and madison proves he is one hell of

a legislator. he understands when he writes a letter and says you know, would you please send us some furniture or things like that. he says we would appreciate it if elizabeth did most of the work. it almost reads like that line where he says let polly do the printing. >> this is a good time to remind the audience that you can ask questions in the final part of the program so do post on facebook and twitter. a. >> most like washington, jefferson, madison and like many americans, his life was deeply intertwined with slavery. what can you tell us about that

relationship? >> it's our national i, no pun intended. he is someone that rails against slavery and is constantly arguing about it and it's just not any good. munro doesn't free any of his persons until he's on his deathbed ironically on the independence day that he dies and he's also as governor of virginia he's presiding over the state when the rebellion occurs. this remarkable man born during the revolution has the talent of a blacksmith, so the owner allows him to work in richmond.

having been captured or taken by the officials for being involved and then getting in a fight, he's branded at this point he's looking to somehow there should be some revenge here. and underneath, he is literally beating and allowing them to set up a network as i'm sure the listeners know especially if they are virginians they will kidnap munro and they will kill a couple of others. what they want to do is negotiate with governor munro that will exchange him for the freedom and then he intends to remain in virginia.

once the ringleaders acquire, the executions begin and he writes a passage this is in 1800 to his memoir and it's literally almost a combination of abraham lincoln conscious pilot and one of his friends says where do we save the hand of the execution and jefferson writes back immediately about how where does it say they end of the executioner is a good question but later in the letter he says it should be soon because if you keep paying the enslaved you can start costing the votes. they talk about the possibilities of releasing the

enslaved rebels to what would be territory far out west and that doesn't work. when he is the ambassador to great britain, he strikes up a friendship with the driving force in the slave trade of great britain. there's a wonderful movie about it they neglect to mention he's advocating on slavery but his attitude towards charles dickinson and ebenezer scrooge. dan preston from washington at one point said in his mind history raises a political theory as he put it to bring munro eventually that it should be colonization and becomes one of the driving forces of the society hence the name for liberia. he's constantly searching to

come to grips with this but at the same time when i asked this question and she said you have to keep in mind that munro needed money, he sold enslaved persons and when he had money he bought one before he went to france. it's believed that her husband was already something munro owned, and her children. at one point he writes they loved him and they are very good and basically on the housekeeping side of slavery but says they are costing me money. when he writes to munro that tina has died, he is genuinely saddened by it but we just can't get our hands around it that

these men that spoke of freedom and one of munro's letters during the rebellion, i'm paraphrasing it but it's almost saying these men were fighting for what i wanted so how do i distance myself from that and never comes up with the answer. >> he's part of the last of the generation figuring out if there is some kind of a solution to slavery in north america what do they see as the problem of slavery and one of the solutions of course as you note we are just going to export people that are americans who don't want to leave but now they are going to go theoretically to liberia and of course after he dies that's when we start to see the transition it does get us to

washington. there is a complicated relationship with slavery and of course he's a powerful slaveowner but munro has a complicated relationship with washington himself. these men began the revolution but actually it outlasts washington in 1799 and what should we know about their connection. >> i think washington certainly was impressed with munro's bravery and one of the things i found interesting munro, like jefferson and madison is constantly almost poverty stricken by the end of his life, but when munro and some of the others, washington isn't taking

any money for his service they say we won't take that either, completely unaware congress is reimbursing washington at least for his expenses, so he never sees a penny for his service in the continental army. but after trenton washington makes him a captain and serves as an aid towards sterling. those of you looking at the portrait here into the battle of trenton you can see on the ground a wounded james munro. washington writes a terrific letter of reference when he's decided to return to virginia and so there's an admiration going back and forth.

there's one trip where he buys a chariot and it has room for two passengers in the back and whatever they have. elizabeth is extremely pregnant, so here is the munro and madison bouncing down these country roads, coming down south to virginia and he could shout if he needed to. i'm sure they were talking politics but the occasional are you okay. the thing i loved about this washington isn't there it's george washington who sees this.

a good night of sleep while the three of them can talk politics. it's almost a habit virginia politicians on their way back maybe courtesy call to george washington but as munro's influence intensified to the point it isn't just jefferson's idea but munro they start to drift away. nothing tears you apart more than the years as washington's minister. it's not so much stockholm syndrome from being there for so

long but he really doesn't like great britain. he doesn't do him any favors and that he doesn't have john j communicating about the treaty but nobody tells munro anything. finally, he gives an assignment to the famous painter of the works in the capital to memorize the treaty and then go to munro and say i will recite it for you but i won't give you a copy. he says well then i don't want to hear it and he passes it along to a new england fellow that he trusts and he can't wait. i mean, this is his countrymen time and he recites the whole thing to this fellow so that munro can find out. he's serious. but at the same time that he feels washington is undermining him, munro was undermining

washington correspondence going back and forth with others and he gets good at it so when he's brought back into this space under the administration, munro is nursing a grudge and writes this 400 page book with an extremely long title that begins with a view of the executive and it's the version of his relationship with washington and what happened. folks watching this are looking at the copy and if you look alongside the bottom you can see the handwritten scribblings of a very angry george washington. in fact at one point, munro writes i was invited to accept the office of the minister and washington's comments are after several attempts to obtain a

more illegible character i didn't proceed how the declaration applied to the treaty negotiations and washington's comments are not in our sole goal than those that will not proceed and it just goes on and on like that. if this was done right now, i think that there would be wtf along these pages with how angry he was about this. >> as folks out there may know he wasn't a somebody that wrote -- it was very rare if he wrote one or two words. this was fun guns blazing right here. we could back up a little bit and i want to know why washington sends munro to france in the first place. by this point munro is a pretty well-known partisan of what we should candidly call the

republican party, but the partye democratic republican party. the washington administration is trying to avoid the war with france. why send munro to france with a more committed federalist? >> all he did is worsen the relationship between revolutionary france and the united states. the french couldn't stand them and outside of their food and wine, he couldn't stand the french and he was creating quite a stir and washington had to recall the first pick. it was madison who turned him down. he reached out to robert livingston so munro was his third pick.

he initially won over the french despite having his things he brought aboard were banished on the dock as sooner he got there. people were still starving in revolutionary paris. but he really does his best to put his best foot forward and try to maintain a relationship with as unmistakable a country as it was in western europe, and his comments and approach hamilton is openly working to get munro recalled and finally, when they catch one of the letters that he's written that comes into pickering's hand it really is a break. they've already had a bit of a

testing relationship and the congress and the senate about maybe sending hamilton to be the ambassador of england and he says you should be asking the senate with advice and consent of who you better pick and washington writes when i want your advice i will ask for it. so there has been that breach and he doesn't do much to help with that. but ironically, a couple of years after the book when munro is elected to the governorship in virginia in december of 1799, he writes a letter to madison saying i would love to have some kind of a meeting with washington. we all looked up to this man. maybe if there was an article in a newspaper where i could print

the nice things he said about me and i can add my feelings about washington, maybe we can get this back on board. a couple of days after the letter as you know, i guess around december 13th, washington is writing and there's been a storm and it's very cold with ice and rain and so forth. he comes into his house shivering and freezing. i saw a wonderful presentation of this by your colleague at the historical society a couple of years ago. she made you feel like you were there. but he said just read me the paper, while he's shivering. and he reads the paper that munro has been elected governor

and is almost apoplectic. he says come down you are not feeling that well. as we know, washington never got out of bed so they never got a chance to make any reunion or come to terms with each other by the time they died. but munro is as partisan as they come as a politician. if he was alive today, he would be on fox news or msnbc every morning. but he's growing out of it by the time he's secretary of state with madison. but once he is elected president, he's banned for all intensive purposes and ultra partisan approach, he will govern like washington. or as joe biden said, he will be the president of all americans. and the proof in the pudding he also picked up washington, the importance of image.

he is wearing throughout the tour a bus laced coat and of course still wearing the buckled shoes and blue jacket and hat the museum still has while he is touring. .. but it really is a reunification. it is a federalist newspaper, the sentinel up in new england that calls this trip and wound up giving monroe a term in

office the era of good feelings that is how successful he was. and that you can let washington's footsteps. snag is probably the most remarkable part of the book for me. he took a tour after his presidents but to take the conscious choice of replicating the colors of the military uniform he says himself the chief magistrate ought not to be head of a party but head of a nation itself. the ways in which he kind of comes full circle there, it is quite remarkable. >> it really does. i defines monroe and a much finer way than had he not been elected a president or been elected and just kept going with his decades long political beliefs. along with james monroe museum , the conversation we had after the book which is probably a good thing because i would've stolen this from him like that,.

[laughter] made the comment we were talking about for monroe doctrine. back and forth that he write it or john could see adams read it? as they both read it? was it really adams idea? there's a lot of quincy adams in that. famous remark when he gave the fourth of july speech about america. she does not go out to find dragons to sleigh. but monroe this is been culminating in monroe's mind to. as scott put it, the monroe doctrine is basically washington's farewell address updated for the 1820s. and then the weight monroe puts it, it's kind of funny then we could also say george washington first at war first at peace first the hearts of countrymen and the first ghost writer because he has been dead for 30 years. it really is an extension of washington's beliefs. but by now they become monroe and thanks to the doctrine

they become our countries. suspect this is been a fantastic discussion, tim, thanks so much for sharing all this with this. think it's time for some audience questions but while michael hayden bring back sara she can help answer questions as well and see what is on the audiences mind. >> steven they go, steven floyd would like to know monroe is less transparent than is presidential predecessors and successors. what kid makes him opaque was a lack of diaries et cetera? >> let's start with you and them will bring you in. >> must be less opaque because dance team has not finished putting papers into a book form. he doesn't write with the skill of jefferson, not many people do. it is not have the countless

diaries to washington's papers are accessible they will put dan and his team a great many are online the national archives has this wonderful program called founders online. they have everybody documents, monroe may have has less than the others up to date and everything else. you can find a wealth of material there. the collections, dance team has done we are to volumes six or seven now. right now getting into the first years of his presidency. they are just wonderful and they really are fascinating.

and also he destroyed his correspondence with elizabeth. which is a total loss. the friends and people who knew them and they love and care for each other. one last comment, his handwriting is terrible. as always during the book on barry, that's his doctor line is abysmal being a left-hander palmer method did not when everest got a secretary writing or there's a couple of letters were elizabeth wrote thank god my eyes are saved. i think that has a lot to do with it. >> what are your thoughts about that? >> i would definitely agree

that the lack of complete publication of monroe's letters, starting with and being scattered too many repositories certainly. i will go back at something i alluded to at the beginning which is that monroe has been misunderstood. slightly different they may be the question of capacity. he misunderstood for a lot of reasons. certainly henry k adams on the h century. but also i think the misunderstanding of monroe's property at highland has figured into it. no matter what, the first standing house was the wing of a larger main house but you look at that little house is that you know it's not ambitious he's not sophisticated this is not a worldly man. i think people misunderstood him because of that. that's why it's exciting to be working on monroe now.

we have new information about what is property actually was. and how he defines himself through the construction of the house and still to be discovered layout of his property. >> that means is just more work to do more work out there for her friends. thank you for that question pray let's see what's coming next. brent would like to know how is it that highland became a site? kim upon his death in 1974. course of monroe is alumnus of william and mary. i'm sure this a lot of discussions debate university of virginia to which monroe also had deep connections. part of that since 1974. >>

thanks bret very much. will would like to knows air of good feelings and accurate description of his presidential years especially his first term? what you think? >> the accurate description of his tours in the last three years to the panic of 1819 sets in. which really is the first great depression and our history. there again is where monroe comes to the floor. i did a small tour after the tour of these northern states. but then in his third tour he aims to go south and west. this is not the first time he has gone into the western territories when they been hit by economic and issues but he did that as a congressman. but he basically, the powers of fdr are two centuries away.

and so he does not have that doesn't bring with him in empathy and his remarks are with you. i will see what congress can do about this. his annual message is to congress what we now call the state of union address pretty asks for help. he asks them to think a little bit outside of the box, what can we do to save people who are losing their homes and their savings and the like. and after 1820 the missouri compromise that shows his lyndon johnson like skills doing a lot of backdoor workers. it's not supposed to be involved. but once he is reelected is come to an end because he's become this close to eliminating partisanship on it level. as soon as he is starting his

second term, he's got 33 candidates to succeed hampered actually for. secretary that drops out early , and henry clay in andrew jackson are lusting after his job. we talked about how awful it is that the day after an election, presidential election, people start running for president. it really wasn't that different back then. sara can probably add to that. i think it's an namely given to all eight years but really it's only accurate for the first two or three. >> will do will more question after that. but sara wasn't an error of good feelings in places like highland? >> well, in terms of economics and agriculture, certainly in the upper places like piedmont. and so we cannot avoid the

real facts that this was a terrible time of threats, especially for enslaved people on these plantations in the south. the domestic slave trade by the need of in the deep south was the biggest looming threat to bear their existence with family at that time. i think it's very important to remember it was a critical peace. >> absolutely prolix us a more questionable wrap this up and put a bow on it. wetsuits on our final audience members mind. have a question? from lisa, when you were researching monroe, what is the one moment or event reset aha felt like you knew this man better, was there a moment

of enlightenment? tim will start with you and sara bring it home for your own moment with monroe. >> that is a hard one. there were so many piled one on top of the other. i'll take one, it is not a letter monroe wrote but a letter to monroe from rufus king rufus king writes to him that basically the sisters send their regards. and it is a younger man's talk to a younger man if you are not around, maybe you're going to lose this young lady. sort of a tantalizing, monroe

was already written some of his correspondence, and virginia say we understand you've got a girlfriend bring it up to speed. then a few weeks after that they get married. i think that elizabeth's marriage with monroe, i would say that is my favorites. because it is a sign also a sign of his ambition. he does not waste any time to waste any time to make sure this happens. he loved her utterly and she the same. there is one place in the presidency would monroe's finances are being investigated he's a lame-duck in this, that, the other. here's a brand-new unitarian church in washington. everyone is going to go there. by now elizabeth is pretty much almost confirmed, she

said probably rheumatic arthritis or something, sara, they show up and they are in the first row. you can just tell we are not going to just sit here and let them do this and think they are not going to bother they show up. i think that is as much elizabeth as james. but it's also the two of them together. so now that i think of it, rufus king's letter might be my favorite. >> you once dug in pompeii from first century rome into 19h century virginia. and roman history also in an early american history. as that's our time he came to this world you thought enter upon this place and this man better? >> encompass all of that and say the fact we don't know it all. the fact they're still so much to learn. but we do day in, day out, try

to understand history, share history, some different perspectives we can still do this and make significant contributions to how we understand our american past. stop precisely about monroe even though i could go deeper about monroe on that. we are still making discoveries and interpretations to change the understanding of u.s. history. that's a great charge, let's get started. sara harper comic tim mcgrath thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise this evening. we really appreciate it thanks much for being here. >> thank you jim. everybody stay safe and healthy. >> absolutely part our pleasure thanks to all be on the audience to really appreciate you stopping by thanks for your questions are miter next week one of the book talk with doctor jean baker and in the meantime take care, stay safe thanks to jenness patrick and

behind-the-scenes. see you soon. >> thank you. ♪ ♪ >> you're watching book tv on cspan2. every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. book tv on cspan2 created by america's cable television company. today were brought to by these television companies who provide book tv to viewers as a public service. on our weekly author interview program "after words", data scientist kathie o'neill interviewed deborah stone about her new book counting in which he argued numbers are not always objective for here's a portion of that interview. >> anything we can do to help people and help leaders make better decisions is a good thing. and i think the good thing about numbers is trying to

measure things, come up with a system whether it's an algorithm or a simple list of indicators, i set the exercise of trying to measure things forces us to think about what we value, what we care about what is important. and i think the point i want to leave people with is we have got a system, maybe it's a better maybe it still got problems but it's better than winning it or what ever. anything they can take the burden off is good. but we should not stop ever. we should always be trying to improve those systems. and those measurements. i think if we think of numbers as a language for talking about our values and what is important and who is being hurt and he was being helped, then using them wisely part if we think of them, this is the

score, that is the end, i am right, you are wrong,. [laughter] then that is not a recipe for progress. >> to watch the rest of this program visit our website booktv.org and click on the "after words" tap to find deborah stone's interview along with all previous episodes. here's a look at some publishing industry news. netflix has announced they will be adapting three books on antiracism by best selling author executive producer of the project by the books that will be adapted are stamps from the beginning, stamped racism antiracism and you comment anti- racist baby, programs for children's, teens and adults are planned. republican setter josh hawley of missouri is found a new publisher for his book, the tyranny of big tech, the release in the center's book

this spring after his original publisher simon & schuster canceled the title citing senator hawley's challenge of the 2020 presidential election results in the recent attack on the u.s. capitol. authored anthropologist mary katherine bateson has died at the age of 81. she was the author of numerous titles including her 1989 book composing a life, look at how she and four other women handled their personal relationships and professional pursuits purge she was a daughter anthropologist our group made. also there is publishers weekly reports on the gains of independent publishers according to the book industry news source of 36 independent publishers made their nonfiction bestseller list in 2020 compared to 22 the year prior. the big five publishers lost some ground in total hardcover and paperback purchases although they still controlled the great majority of sales. and the united states postal service has announced the late novelist ursula quinn will be the 33rd stamp in the literary life series for the sample consisted of a portrait

of the author with a background based on her novel the left hand of darkness. ursula quinn died in 2018 at the age of 88. book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news pretty can also watch all of our past programs anytime a booktv.org. >> hi everyone thank you so much for tuning in today. i am care about their senior editor at mother jones. i'm sure he can all relate when you can say i've been reeling for the last week of news as he watched in horror as our democracy came under attack it was easy to forget that the coronavirus is still raging with 4000 new cases every day. but these two events are related and one really important way. the people who stormed the capitol live in an alternate reality. their beliefs are reinforced by dangerous conspiracy theories shared in online communities. that same dynamic, the online spread of misinformationas