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tv.org or consult your program guide. and we will kick off this weekend with a look at the life of america's fifth resident, james monroe. mech hey everyone thank you so much for joining us this evening. i'm delighted you've done so. i name is jim on the digital history of very pleased to welcome you to tonight's program is cosponsored in part by our friends at james monroe highland to. we will learn more about james monroe, the nation's fifth of the so-called virginia dynasty that dominated american politics in the american revolution, well into the 19th century. in a few moments i will be talking with historians tim mcgrath about his book james monroe, a life which you can see here. but first we have a very special guessable introduces to highlands, the place that james monroe, his family and his enslaved people called home. doctor sara botta harper executive director of james

monroe's highland and research professor anthropology at william and mary preaches also he seems in professor at archaeological expeditions in united states and europe including neighboring monticello and codirector of the anglo-american pompeii project first team to excavate the ruined roman city after open to researchers in the 1990s which we should totally do a live stream about sometime in the future. doctor bonne harper thank you so much for joining us this evening. >> thanks so much for having meets a pleasure. what it is a pleasure indeed. may ask how things are and highland today? speech a very good thank you we open to the public in august have an outdoors experience only right now which seems to be a welcome thing for people to do. the public glad to back learned about history being outside. we have a wide open space on our site so people can open with plenty of space between

people and be there safely. so we feel fortunate about that right now. sue and that is terrific. he thought we might start getting some groundwork under our feet for those who may in the audience unfamiliar with james monroe highland, with the estate could you give us an overview the history of that place? sue eck absolutely decided to do so. so highland is the property that monroe bought in 1793. and he did so the urging of his friends and mentor thomas jefferson. jefferson's monticello was adjacent at the time now they share a tiny corner of adjacent property. we are about a mile and a half past monticello. and monroe moved into the house. often he was in france but moved into the house in 1799. it was a governor's house. there is a lot of conversation about it being small. he himself referred to as a cabin castle with false modesty. and then in the most

interesting thing is the story of this site hadn't really been sorted out until fairly recently. and you see on our screen here, this yellow house on the right is a two-story structure that is some 1870's that's well past monroe. little white portion on the left we now know was monroe's presidential guesthouse. we don't 1818 he had to enslaved men name peter mallory and george williams construct this house and he wrote about it. but for years and years it was misunderstood as a remnant wing of the main house. it turns out the main house was completely destroyed by fire. we think probably right around the beginning of the year 1830. and oddly enough there is nothing that we can find a written about it from contemporary sources.

you think how popular monroe was, and still living at that time there would've been a lot of press. he'd already moved by then. to oak hill in loudoun county, we have not done any newspaper accounts or things specifically about the house monroe built on having burned. it is fascinating. good sorry. >> host: or anything describes that absence the documentary record that is profound. >> is profound. newspaper facing a good long time ago perhaps in 1999. and when i picked up the research about 15 years later we had a great intern go after all the digitization in those 15 years you should be able to find it, right? and nothing. and so other researchers have since pulled up the great

sleuth maranda burnett has pulled up a letter the later owner, goodwin to a neighbor, higginbotham the 1830s that could happen. but you know i have firm belief that someday, somebody is going to come up to me. i will be giving a talk somewhere or sitting and talking here's his newspaper article and i found it back in the archives. it's gotta be something we haven't found yet. something we don't take into account is how much variety there is pretty how much variability there is and what got recorded and what didn't and what newspapers are preserved and what ones didn't get preserved. it's got to be out there.

>> what's recorded seems like is in the ground. i think is your headed archaeologically interpreting that history. shaping as we know. >> guest: i'm glad to. it's clear something was missing from the landscape from the documentation and from the above ground architectural, clearly did not have the whole story. and some archaeology have been done on when william and mary first acquired the property which was in 1974. so few years the 1970s some good work done and not quite conclusive. acacia should dig in a few more places. no one really pick that up again until after i got there until he said this doesn't quite make sense. started digging, really we

encircle that structure that we saw with the white pieces attached to it. and doug all around. eventually landed on finding the debris in front of the 1870 house that then we excavated further and recognized as pretty well matching the insurance documents that monroe had drawn out in 1800, 1809, 1816. have a well-preserved wall here on the left and on the right if you look really closely where the archaeologist is pointing of really significant patrick chocolates evidence of the burning of the house. it is remarkable well-preserved and incredibly close to the surface. so a really unusual find and

it lost, forgotten, and found presidents home. very odd. the time he continued to live here off and on, eventually spent more time it oak hill in loudoun county closer to d.c. of course. in the core of the property was sold including the house area in 1826 by the bank of the united states and the land went separate. i had a couple more images i would be glad to show you. >> host: yes please. we understand what the layout of the house. i mentioned cabin castle. monroe was not an ambitious, look into this later. i think he kind of sold himself short and shame on us for many years we bought it.

i don't know by think misunderstanding his house was part of it. this house as we understand it now was very appropriate. moments after moving in 1799 it was appropriate was no monticello, mount hillyer but those are in fact exceptional houses. those that not even compared to his later house at ocala. can we move on a little. until we currently come in pandemic time this impact is before pandemic, no mass. showing people how the site works and telling some stories about actually the december version is and does involve the battle with our conversation for tonight.

activities for guests personal and political during that series. have a standing of the yellow house in 1870 still there. that probably covers a portion of the original main house from 1799. certainly does not obscure or entirely impact the archaeological remains. the current menu have available to us. we are grateful recipients to part of the inaugural grants on the conjoint program this year. with william and mary students.

[inaudible] >> descendent communities. [inaudible] we have a lot to still explore at highland which is really amazing i still say stay tuned because there's a lot left. but we look forward to it and sara thanks much ruling some ground workforce. i will note will see when the third act of today's program and to folks out there want to watch us live and ask questions asked them too post those questions in the comments in facebook, youtuber twitter. they'd love an opportunity to talk with the again just here in a little bit. thank you. see you shortly. >> let's learn more about james monroe himself. as i mentioned earlier our

guest tonight is tim mcgrath. he is a two-time winner of the commodore book award for maritime literature for his books, john berry in american hero in the age of sail and give me a fast ship. the continental navy and the revolution at sea which also in the sam elliott morrison award for maple literature. as i mentioned earlier he's the author of the new book james monroe alike which is published by dutton and england is a big book but is still very pleasing place on your bookshelf it is a delightful read. tim i am delighted to welcome you to the program. >> thanks so much for having me. into the staff at mount vernon as well. but it's great to see you i am excited to talk but all things monroe this evening. jim boaz to call him around the office, let's start here pretty britain two very important books about naval history of the american revolution and the early republic. so why james monroe?

speech it when my editor grant howard's look into another book and he's thinking let's go past naval history and come up with he said pick a president. so we went back and forth in harry truman's name came up. about james monroe up and he said why and i said when i was seven years old he was my favorite president. he'd been taken to valley forge which is not far from where i live and where i grew up. the guide there was talking about obviously george washington, he also got into, he said there are other people who were here too. one of them was another president, james monroe. talked about him being wounded at trenton and coming into valley forge and serving made me want to learn more. and a kids book about monroe in the souvenir shop. and off we went.

i did not know enough about james monroe to hurt me when we got started with this. i thought that i knew what a history major would know. but the more we dug into it, how are people missing this? there is a trinity of experts and their teams in virginia certainly scott harris but mary washington is now running the museums for mary washington that they have. but at that time james monroe museum and his wonderful team, dan preston had a life annotating and assembling the papers of james monroe, again a wonderful team commies since retired and heidi sellers has been wonderful there. last but certainly not least sara von harper and her work and her staff at highlands.

you have been immensely helpful. sara has taken many a late night call to help fill in for what's been at remarkable story the guy was just everywhere. most might have south american western hemisphere in the western century. can you gives a short sketch of their lives will dive in after that. >> i will do my best. he is the son of both a farmer and a carpenter and artisan. the oldest of three children. he had an older sister, his parents both died when he was young. he's pretty much rescued by his uncle, joseph jones who is a well-known lawyer, judge, house of burgesses and a crony of washington. it was jones who made sure he

went to william and mary. he was there in the revolution broke out and immediately got involved prior to that enduring with the political activities of the rebellious colonists. and enjoying the continental navy with the third virginia was made a lieutenant among the other officers, and old school mate of his days, john marshall. third virginia came up to new york right at the end of the battle of brooklyn. in a day or so after he arrived washington famously lost his temper what am i going to do with these men? in a day or so after that found themselves in a pretty large skirmish at harlan heights that's where monroe got his baptism by fire. he met he was a rifleman he

was firing a weapon of more accuracy than a musket. certainly took more time to load which made it difficult. and then he marched in the retreat to new jersey. he had a wonderful passage at one point where he is a lieutenants. he is given the daily assignment one day of let's see how many men we have left. he writes down less than 3000. at the same time he talks about seeing washington and talks about a deportment so dignified yet so humble that it never left his mind. he is one of the two officers volunteered to cross the delaware before washington and the rest of the army did. helping to lead a skirmish line into trenton. in the battle he was severely wounded a musket ball essayed with him throughout the visit life that severed an artery

and the doctor that he literally picked up on the way, that man was convinced the russians were stealing his livestock once they saw they were american they said i'll come with you and maybe help somebody. he literally saved monroe's life. he later served the wine was in aid to lord sterling. and after that he is a little frustrated and is looking to move further and try to advance his career. there's only so much room for virginia officers in the continental army. returns to virginia to get a courtesy in their militia. and also to study law under thomas jefferson and then enters politics from the state assemblyman for virginia.

becomes a congressman 25 just barely 31 realizes we need a strong government but there isn't one. it's not picked to go the constitutional convention later in the ratifying patrick henry sees him as a good front man, young guy, good-looking, or hero. he is against the constitution that has a bill of rights. later he's asked by washington while he is a senator to serve his country and go to france and serve as the minister of the reign of terror, washington believes he is sending him a very pronounced file to france please sending

john jaden to negotiate the treaty. that winds up creating a serious rupture between washington and monroe. "after words" when he returns he's been recalled and arrives back in adams time. madison and jefferson get him elected. after that they send him jefferson sends him to close the deal on the louisiana purchase. he spent several years on diplomatic missions to spain and is a minister to england. as recalled by secretary of state madison. and again has a year or two of privacy and then becomes governor again. and serves as madison's secretary of state. he's also the secretary of war, holds both positions after washington is burnt for a while. then is elected to the

presidency. >> so he holds almost every position somebody could hope to hold from the american revolution into the early republic. >> guest: yes he pretty much held more positions elected and appointed than any other president in our history. >> yard it mentioned jefferson and madison. one of the things that really struck me as i read your book was the ways in which you juxtapose these three men. several places you note jefferson has this deep philosophical mind, madison is a brilliant legal theorist and lawyer. but monroe in your estimation possessed a shrewd sound judgment that served him well throughout the course of his life. how does that help us understand who monroe was and how he understood himself within the pantheon of the founding generation.

method is a great question pretty for your two best friends are jefferson and madison, you are really going to be accused of being the brightest guy in the room. [laughter] but there is a young lawyer, francis gilmore around 1815, 1816 he went to monticello at a time when jefferson was hosting madison and monroe and watch them observe their conversations during the day. and at the end in his notes he writes jefferson has the most learning, and monroe the best judgments. that really is his strongest suit. he has impeccable judgment almost all of the time throughout his public life. it's not john quincy adams came to believe that is monroe secretary of state. john calhoun who is a rather

wonderful secretary of war and not yet the poster child for proslavery issues made the same comments. and cabinet meetings he seemed to exhaust his cabinet by listening. and john quincy adams notes remind you even of their discussing an issue in the cabinet room last person you wanted to be last person candy return to and say what you think? he had a cabinet that rivals washington had quincy adams' a good secretary of treasury if not a good loyalist to monroe. and he really made the most of making good judgments, taking good people for the jobs. and he was very deliberate for the doctrines may be the best

example. he's no sooner elected president and congress is pushing henry clay to the united states to recognize the new south american latin american republics. under texas time. he waits until the moment is just right will he believes the country strong enough on his own is developed enough of a good relationship with great britain and thereby the british navy to make that announcement. >> or the good examples of his judgment think i'm certain your book is a choice of life partner in elizabeth, his wife. very clear he's essential to his personal life and political life. can you give us a bit of a sense of who his wife elizabeth was in what she played on the national and international stage? >> sure i'd be happy to that is a great question. monroe marries up. meets are in new york while

the american government is there. in fact had, written about monroe the song would've been about the cartwright sisters not the skyler sisters. she's among a trio of very beautiful young ladies who are also very smart, their father was a successful merchant who live near wall street in about ten years younger than monroe. in fact a lot of elizabeth's friends thought he was beneath her. but something clicked with them. and it really is one of the great love affairs of presidential history. he is devoted to elizabethan his children. i think one of the things that sold me doing the research, while they were in paris and relatively had just arrived,

there were two people languishing in french prisons. one is thomas paine who monroe can be very open about trying to get out of behind bars. the other is adrienne latvian. the marquis is already imprisoned in latvian. she's already lost her mother and sisters to the guillotine. and monroe had befriended latvian. they were on the same battlefield in the battle of brandywine. they were friends in correspondence for years. and monroe just doesn't see how he can do anything overt to get adrienne freed. but elizabeth figures it out. one morning she has their carriage all cleaned up and dresses in her finest clothes. carrying a basket was some bread, some fruit & wine has yourself driven to the prison

a 400-year-old hotel that's been converted because they ran out of jail cells. in adrienne when she hears the coming up the steps she thanks this is that's our time. in this almost giddy with excitement when she finds out elizabeth is there to have a conversation, open things up. within a few weeks get adrienne released. and then monroe takes them to herself to help her and her son, george washington latvian safely out of france. adrienne goes to austrian winds up immediately being imprisoned with her husband. bit.ly she is with her husband. and washington sends their son to his namesake to george washington. with that kind of bravery is wonderful to read about monroe 's words as he writes in this autobiography be about how she did this. she is a remarkable lady. very talented and very quiet.

she's almost the jacqueline kennedy of the founding first ladies. she's a bit regal she is miss represented as aloof. it's the case that she hasn't old-fashioned politeness and she saw to that. >> we can talk for just a minute about the contrast about the and how they entertain. dolley madison for example was a very powerful figure in d.c. politics. and then followed by james and elizabeth. how did their time in france shape the ways in which they create a small republican court in the washington and that. >> i think the monroe's were both very influenced in france. not just by thinking and culture but also by furniture. they bought furniture that they actually took to the

white house after it was reopened. some of that is still there today. some of those people were re- furnished and put on display. but their approach to entertainment was very different. but let's face it, how are you gonna follow dolley madison, it's no wonder that his one presidential opponent said, i just couldn't beat her. just this remarkable lady. they were very good friends. madison and monroe had been friends the end of the revolution. an dolley and elizabeth meets her some furniture now we can get married and moved on to montpelier.

at one point madison is buying furniture new york where james live as newlyweds. one of monroe's sisters calls a vial. his one hell of a legislature. [laughter] writes letters to the monroe's welfare in france and says to please send us some furniture and china or things like that. and he does say we are appreciated elizabeth did most of the work. that almost reads like that live draws the first five minutes let polly do the printing. as if he couldn't succeed at it neither could his friend. >> is a good time to remind the audience you have a chance asked him questions here in the final part of the program pizza please do post us on facebook, youtube and twitter.

tim like most virginians like washington, jefferson, madison and like many americans and rose life was deeply intertwined with slavery. what can you tell us about that relationship? it is our national blackeye and that is no pun intended. he is like jefferson and like a madison as examples someone who rails against slavery. constantly arguing about it. it's just not any good. but monroe is not free any of his enslaved persons until he is on his deathbed that he dies. and also as governor of virginia he is presiding of the state when gabriel's rebellion occurs. in this remarkable man born during the revolution who has

the talents of a blacksmith so his owner allows him to work in richmond and go to other plantations, having been captured or taken by officials for being involved in the stealing of a pagan than getting in a fight with the next-door plantation overseer, he is branded. somehow there should be some revenge here. under the noses of white virginians he's leaving it into short swords for his travels allow him to set up a network, is menem sure your listeners know special they are virginians, of slaves. his goal is able kidnap governor monroe. they will kill his owner and a couple of others.

but what they want to do is negotiate with governor monroe that we will exchange them for our freedom. and then he intends to remain in virginia. the night of the rebellion of the horrendous thunderstorm occurs into lose their new and route gabriel out. and once the ring leaders across the executions begin. monroe writes a passage this is an 1800 to his mentor and best friend jefferson talking about the weight that is on him. it is literally almost a combination of early abraham lincoln, pontius pilot and hamlet. one of his last sentences is where to stay the hand of the executioner? jefferson writes back immediately to where to stand the hay at the executioner is a good question. later in his letter it said it should be soon because if you

keep hanging enslaved are going to start costing me votes in the north. they talk about possibilities of releasing the enslaved rebels to what will be basically indian territory or oklahoma so far out west, that does not work. when monroe is the ambassador to great britain, he strikes up a friendship who was a driving force to end the slave trade in great britain. there's a wonderful movie about him they regret to mention advocating and slavery. his attitude is right out of charles dickens and ebenezer scrooge. dan preston from mary washington at one point said it monroe's mind history, race and political theory as he put

it emancipation should bring colonization because were the driving forces of the american college in society hence monroe being the name for liberia. he is constantly searching to come to grips with this. at the same time the credit here goes to sara when i ask this question once she said you have to keep in mind that monroe needed money. he sold enslaved persons. and when monroe had money he bought them. one of the enslaved persons he purchased right before what to france with sally hemmings sister and he writes about her and it is believed that her husband was already someone monroe owned and her children. at one point he writes the care for children, they love them and they're on the housekeeping site of slavery. but says they are costing me. when joseph jones writes to

monroe that tina has died he is genuinely saddened by it. again it is the thing we just can't get our hands around it's been i spoke of freedom i'm paraphrasing it buddies almost saying these men were fighting for what i wanted. and so how do i distance myself from that when it is by someone of color? and never comes up with the answer. >> host: he's part of the last of the generation is trying to figure out if there is some kind of solution to slavery in north america, to what they see as the problem of slavery and the threat of slavery in one of the solutions is of course you noted american colonization. going checks for people who are americans who don't want

to leave. another going to go theoretically to liberia. but after he dies that's we start to see really the transition, it is a necessary evil to a positive good certainly. i think that does get us to washington actually. monroe has a complicated slavery. washington is a very powerful slave owner. he is a complicated relationship with washington himself. these two men's relationship begin and the revolution prepared actually outlast washington's death in 1799. what should we know about their connection? see that i think washington was certainly impressed with monroe's bravery in trenton. in one of the things i found interesting, monroe, like jefferson and madison is

constantly land poor and almost poverty stricken by the end of his life. but when monroe and some of the other young men and williamsburg here that washington is not taking any money for his service to his country. the naysayer we won't take any either. completely unaware that congress is reimbursing washington for at least his expenses. he never sees a penny for his service in the continental army. after trenton, washington makes him a captain right on the spot. and he serves as an aid to lord stirling who is one of washington's best generals. those of you looking at the portrait here with the battle of trenton, layoff in the back behind the horses you can see on the ground a wounded james monroe. and washington writes a really terrific letter of reference to monroe when monroe has

decided to return to virginia. and so there is a real admiration going back and forth. earlier when monroe has married elizabeth and is a congressman there is one trip returning after recess work monroe buys a chariot which is not the charleston heston, ben hur version it has a writing box and room for two passengers in the back and whatever they have. elizabeth is extremely pregnant. so here are the monroe and madison's bouncing down the country roads, coming down south to virginia. medicine is so this person can't speak very lab he could shout if he needed to. and i'm sure he and monroe are talking politics all the way down with the occasional uk their lives? from them. but when they arrived at mount vernon, the thing i loved

about this is martha washington is not there. but as george washington who sees all this and immediately has elizabeth give them one of the best bedrooms in virginia. he draws a bath for her to be in complete comfort, what a hunger for what would you like? he is a consummate host parties able to give elizabeth finally a good night sleep and seven inter- tavern where the three of them can talk politics. it was almost a habit that virginia politicians, on their way back paid a courtesy call to george washington. but as monroe's, as jefferson's influence on monroe's political thinking intensifies to a point where it is not just jefferson's idea but monroe's as far as being an inquiry and an avowed republican, they start to drift away.

nothing tears them apart further than monroe's years in washington's ministers. it's not so much a stockholm syndrome from being there so long, is he really believes in france and really does not like great britain. washington does not do him any favors and that he does not have john jake communicate with them about this treaty. obvious of the french she knew were not going to like. but nobody tells monroe anything. finally, jay gives an assignment to john trumbull the famous painter that works in the capitol to memorize the jay treaty. and then go to monroe and say i will recite it for you, but i will not give you a copy. and monroe wisely says that i don't want to hear it. any passes passes it on to a new england bella in paris that monroe trusts and trumbull can't wait, this is his friends countrymen time.

recites the whole thing to this fellow soap monroe can find out, he is furious. but at the same time he feels washington is undermining him, monroe is undermining washington sending correspondence to madison going back and forth and gets caught on it. so when he is brought back in disgrace under adams administration and secretary of state pickren whose no fan of monroe's, monroe's relate nursing a grudge. he writes this 400 page book with an extremely long title. but it begins with the view of the executive and it is his version of his relationship with the washington and what happened in france. folks watching this are looking at washington's copy. if you look along the side and the bonding see the handwritten scribblings of a very, very angry george washington. in fact i got a kick out of

putting them next which other in the book. at one point monroe rights was invited by the president to accept the office of the administered washington's comments are after several attempts have failed, and more eligible character another point he said i did not receive how the declaration of independence applied to the time of the jay treaty negotiations. washington's comments are none are so dull than those who will not proceed. it just goes on and on like that. if this was done right now, jim, i think there would be the initial wtf along these pages with how angry washington was about this. >> it's remarkable to because as folks may know washington was not someone he wrote in the margins of books, he just did not do it. was very rare if he wrote one or two words. this is a guns a blazing right here. i guess it back up just a little bit. i want to know, why washington

sends difference the first place. in the midst 1790s monroe was a pretty well-known partisan of what we short handedly called the republican. the washington's ministration is trying to avoid war, why send monroe to france and morecambe federalism quick tsubaki already had that in governor mars. all he did was worsen the relationship between a revolutionary france and the united states. the french could not stand them. outside of their food and wine, morris could not stand the french. he was creating quite a stir in washington had to recall him. his first pick to be minister was madison who turned them down. he reached out to robert

livingston and new york and livingston turned him down. so monroe was his third pick it initially he would have had to tipped his hat to what monroe did for him. he immediately won the french over, despite having his bad rang sacked and the foodstuff he brought aboard were banished on the dock as soon as he got there. people are still starving and revolutionary paris. he really does his best to put the past foot forward and try to maintain a relationship, as unstable a country is or was in western europe. by his comments and approach to start to work in hamilton is openly working to get monroe recalled. and finally when the catch one of the letters he has written

comes into pickren's hands, there is the thing to end it. and it really is a break. his argument a bit of a testy relationship. monroe while in congress of the senate about these remarks. at one point sending hamilton to be the ambassador for england. he should be asking the senate of who you're going to pick. in washington writes a very polite version of what i want your advice i will ask for. so the really has been that breach. monroe's book doesn't do much to help with it. but ironically a couple of years after the book when monroe is elected to the governorship in virginia in december of 79 he writes a letter to madison saying i

would really love to have some kind of reproach in washington. we all looked up to this man. maybe if i post an article in a newspaper where i can print the nice things he said about me and i can add my kind feelings about washington, maybe we can get this back on board. a couple days after this letter, as you know i guess around december 13, washington is writing over his estate, there's a storm is very cold and wet rain and so forth. he comes into his house shivering and freezing. in fact jaisol a wonderful presentation about this by your colleague samantha snyder at the historical society of pennsylvania it was marvelous. she made you feel like you were there.

he said just read me the paper while he is shivering. and he reads a paper monroe is been elected governor and washington grows almost apoplectic. he says calm down, calm down, if you're not feeling well he should go to bed. as we know washington never got out of bed. they never got a chance to make any reunion or come to terms with each other by the time they died. but monroe, is as partisan as they come as a politician. if he was on live today he would be on fox news or news every morning. he's growing out of it by the time he secretary state with madison. once he's elected president he abandons for all intensive purposes and ultra partisan approach at all for it like

washington. or as joe biden just said he'll be the president of all americans. the proof in the pudding is his tours. he also picked up from washington the importance of image. he is wearing throughout the tours in both ways coast at buff colored bridges. he's wearing the buckled shoes and a hat which the museum still has. while he is touring. and the counts are going crazy. it's like a rockstar tour. and he is being fêted by federalists and republicans alike. in fact the l.a. people are detractors of what they're doing are ironically the virginians with the richmond inquire saying oh he's becoming like royalty. it really is a reunification

to it really is, this is who we are. it is a federalist newspaper the sensible and new england calls this trip and wound up giving monroe a term for his holter. the era of good feelings. that is how successful he was. and that you can lay it washington's footsteps. >> is probably the muster merkel part of the book for me. he took a tour after his presidency the conscious choice of replicate in the colors almost military uniform. he actually says himself the chief magistrate of the country ought not to be head of the party but have a nation itself. and the ways in which she comes full-circle there is quite remarkable. to make it really does it defines monroe and a much finer way than had he not been elected president. or not been elected and kept going with decades long political beliefs.

and then scott harris with mary washington the james monroe you see in the conversation we had after the book, which is probably a good thing because i would've stolen this from him like that. [laughter] made the comment we were talking about the monroe doctrine. and back and forth that he write it or to john quincy adams read it? did they both write it? was it really adam's idea? there's a lot of quincy adams in that. his famous remark when he gave his fourth of july speech about america, she does not go out to find dragons to sleigh. but monroe, it's been culminating in monroe's mind to. as scott put it, the monroe doctrine is basically washington's farewell address updated for the 1820s. and in the weight monroe puts it, it's kind of funny we could also say george washington's first or more first mps first the hearts of

countrymen and the first ghost writer. he has been dead for 30 years. it really is an extension of washington's beliefs but now they have become monroe's >> this is been a fantastic discussion, tim, thanks so much for sharing all this with us pretty sign person audience questions but let's bring back sara you can help her with questions and well and see what is on the audiences mind. >> up steven floyd would like to know, monroe is less transparent that is predecessors and many other successors. what makes him so comparatively opaque? is lack of diaries, letters, et cetera? who ever one set, tim let's start with you and sara will bring you in. sawicki might be less opaque because dan's team is not finished putting the papers into book form.

he doesn't write with the skill of a jefferson, not many people do. and he does not have the countless diaries that were done all at the same time by washington. but's papers are accessible per their every word mary washington university has been able to fix to dan and his team. a great many online for someone to read. another place to find them if you are interested mr. floyd is national archives has this wonderful program called founders online. they have everybody's documents and papers. monroe may have less than the others because they are still getting these up-to-date and everything else. but you can find a wealth of material there. in the collections that dan

has done, that his team has done what they're up to volume six or seven right now. we are right now getting into the first years of his presidency, they are just a wonderful and they really are a fascinating read. also because he destroyed his correspondence with elizabeth, which is a total loss because it is obvious in the comments they are friends and people who knew them how much they loved and cared for each other. and one less, his hand writing is terrible. [laughter] when i was in the book on barry, doctor with his dearest friends but you look at benjamin's hand writing and thanks he is the first doctor for the cliché they cannot do any handwriting. mine is abysmal being a left-hander taught by nuns the palmer method did not work its way into my brain. james monroe's handwriting is awful. whenever you got a secretary

writing of this even a couple letters were elizabeth wrote all the sin you thank god my eyes are saved. but i that has a lot to do with it. specter what your thoughts about that? >> i would definitely agree with the complete publication without being scattered too many repositories is certainly an issue part i will go back to something i alluded to at the beginning which is that monroe is been mis- understood but maybe slightly different with the center said for lot of reasons but certainly henry k adams said some damning things in the 19th century. but really thinking that misunderstanding of monroe's property at highland has figured into it. no matter what, even if you thought wing of a larger main house you look at that little house and use think no he's

not ambitious he's not sophisticated. this is not a worldly man. i think people misunderstood him because of that. and said that is part of why it is exciting to be working on monroe now. we have new information about what is property actually was. and how he defines himself through the construction of the house to be discovered layout of his property. >> just means there's more work to do, thank you but see what is coming next. brent would like to know how is it highland became the site of william and mary customer gets a terrific question i would like to know that as well. we too short is inherited from the last private owner upon his death in 1974. it was given to william and mary of course monroe is an alumnus of william and mary. and i'm sure there is a lot of

discussion prior and debate. of course we are in the backyard of the university of virginia to which a monroe also had deep connections. but as both william and mary since 1974. >> fantastic, thanks very much but we liked those air of good feelings and accurate description of his presidential years especially as first-term, tim what he think? >> accurate description of his tours and pry the first three us until the panic of 1819 sets in. which really is the first great depression. there again as we get monroe to the four. he did a small to her after the tour of the northern states. in his third tour he aims to go south and west. this is not the first time he has gone into the western territories when they have been hit by economic and

issues. they did that as a congressman. he is basically the powers and fdr are two centuries away. and so he does not have that. he does bring with him and empathy. in his remarks are with you. i will see what congress can do about this. his annual message is to congress he asks for help. he asks them to think a little outside of the box, what can we do to save people who are losing their homes and their savings. : :

sarah can probably do that. it is a name we have given to all eight years but only accurate for the first two or three. >> was an error of good feelings in places like ireland? >> well, in terms of economics,

and the real economic engine is the deep south. this was a certain time of threat, and labor in the deep south, the biggest looming threat to bear on their existence with family at that time, it is important to remember with the critical piece is. >> one more question and we will wrap this up and put a bow on it and see what is on the audience members mind. have a question?

what was the one moment or event that made you feel, that was a terrific question, was there a moment of enlightenment. i will start with you and sarah, we will bring it home for your own moment. >> that is a hard one, there were so many one on top of the other. i will take one. it was not a letter munroe wrote a letter to my friend from the late 1785, my world is not found in congress and rufus king writes to him that the court sisters send their regard and it is a younger man's talk

to a younger man that if you are not around you will reach this young lady. sort of a tantalizing -- some of his correspondents saying we understand you've got a girlfriend, bring it up to speed. when a few weeks after that they get married. i think elizabeth's marriage with monroe was my favorite because it is a sign of his ambition, doesn't waste time making sure this happens, he loved her utterly and she the same and there is one instance when finances are being

investigated and he is a lame-duck and there's an oratory with the brand-new oregon at the unitary church in washington, everyone is going to go there but by now elizabeth is almost infirm. she has had arthritis, sarah can get into that but they show up in the first row and you can tell we're not just going to sit here and let them do this and it is as much elizabeth as james but also the two of them to gather so now that -- that might be my favorite. >> you went from first century rome to nineteenth century virginia, and expert in early american history. is there a moment you first came into this world when you thought i understand this place

and this man better? >> let me say the facts are we don't know it all, there is so much to learn, what we do day in and day out to understand and share history from a different perspective and included other voices. we can still do this and make significant contributions. it is not just about monroe though i could go deeper than monroe on that but we have discoveries that change our understanding of us history. >> that is a great place to end is a great chart. sara bon-harper, tim mcgrath, thank you for sharing your expertise, thanks for being here. >> stay safe and healthy.

>> our pleasure and thanks to all of you, we appreciate you stopping by and thanks for your questions. we will have another book talk, we are looking at benjamin latrobe, stay safe thanks to jeanette patrick and see you again soon. >> thank you. >> you are watching booktv on c-span2 every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors, booktv on c-span2 created by america's cable television company. brought to you by these television companies to provide booktv as a public service. >> during a virtual event in new york comedian judy gold offered thoughts on free speech and censorship and here are some of the discussion. >> you have a right to say

whatever but the basis of that argument in the book is if you are going to talk about the holocaust or whatever, kids in cages, racism, whatever it is it has to be funny but you can tackle that issue but you better craft a beautiful joke around it because gratuitously viewing the sets for shock value humor with no joke about it, that is not what we do. a good comedian makes you think and laugh at the same time. i write about -- i am a lesbian

and i came out in the mid 90s but i came out on stage as a gay parent because i had the first one and anytime i talked about the family, i had so much material. i never talked about my partner because it was boring and oh my god! this is amazing and also it was notorious. ingenious material and after a few minutes, most of the parents in the audience who were straight would be laughing because it is the same stuff we are going through and at one point i used to do a book in the late 90s, early 2000s

because it is interesting how far, a cd or whatever, we have come so far and yet you have children and it was the early 2000s and it really was ridiculous, i used to do it about all the people who are allowed to get married and i can't get married, eric and lyle menendez, mary is a 12-year-old student, married more whites than i did and it is exhilarating and i was in houston and on military guy came to me after the show, you want to get married now and the

power of comedy is so amazing, so many stigmas. someone, you like them. it is disarming. >> a lot of this program visit our website, booktv.org and search for judy gold or the title of her book, yes, i can say that using the box at the top of the page. this is c-span's new online story, c-span shop.org, to check out the new c-span products in the 100 seventeenth congress in session, we are taking preorders for the congressional directory. every c-span shop purchase support c-span's nonprofit operations. shop today, c-spanshop.org. >> now on c-span2's booktv, more television for serious readers.