looking forward to reading more about your work and at this point weelg close the webinar but i want to thank you again for joining us really enjoyed the talk. the book again, freedom move fantastic book i would definitely, definitely recommend it. and -- yeah hope everybody is well thank you again. trchg thank you so much for having me. and for the great work that you do. >> my pleasure. you're watching booktv on c-span2 every weekend with latest nonfiction book and authors book c-span created by america table television company spps book tv as a public service. to the commonwealth club john club vice president of media and

editorial, and your co-host for todays's program. now we hope you're staying safe and are well wherever you are we look forward to seeing you in person one day again. ed a commonwealth club headquarters in san francisco, until that happens, we're doing all of our programs online, which is just the latest in more than 360 online programs or club has produced during the pandemic. you can find all of our upcoming programs as well as podcast, and video from our past events at commonwealth club.org. now if you're watching live on youtube use chat book to submit and work some of them into our conversation now i want to introduce michelle mioo producer host of the michelle show, and she's a member of the commonwealth club board of governors. good to see you again, michelle. >> great to see you john thank you all for joins us thanks to the club for bringing these incredible thought leaders to us today. our guest today is a new york city based writer, his screen writing career began when he worked for free in 2018

previously he worked at google in the youtube and people's operation division, and as a tech entrepreneur. he's since written forthcoming tv series and feature films with collaborators likely morgan freeman and will pacer his op-ed pieces appeared in "new york times" and team vogue here today to talk about his latest project black magic his book, let's welcome chatted sanders to the program chad thank you so much for being with us. >> yeah thanks for having me i'm grateful. >> i'm going to go to take a page out of your book -- [laughter] and ask you to run through the geographic thoughtses from your acts to childhood and what the focus was at each and every of those thoughts. >> oh, wow. so there have been many stops, i was born in alexandria, virginia. my first place i lived was in

yanked raised by my parents i had an older sister who was three years older than me. we moved from -- part of the city that was close er to washington, d.c. when i was six a little bit out in the suburbs to very sort of americana cul-de-sac single family home neighborhood. and that's where i lived until i was 18. i went to college down in atlanta, georgia, i'm sorry the purpose of each of the stops well in alexandria purpose was to make it out of the hospital alive. in silver spring the purpose was to -- man, as a kid -- i don't know what the -- felt like every day every moment had a different purpose. i had very regimed and structured parents in terms of the way that they parented us and so -- there was sort of and urgency

each hour of each day it seem sometimes sometimes it would be practicing piano sometimes practicing basketball steams it would be, you know, cub scouts. studying for school, reading, we were generally given about 30 minutes of tv a night which sometimes would, you know, we would get fixed into an hour if we were lucky. but the purpose of my childhood in many ways was -- it seems like my parents wanted to expose me to anything that i might have an affinity for or gift for, and teach me how to attack that, you know, if it were something that was inclined towards. when i got to high school, i think is when i really started to reconcile with or reckon with my race and my racial identity. i certainly was aware of it well before that. but it -- it felt like something i couldn't necessarily like yengt

have any choice over how i brought myself to it. and in high school was when i really start to become -- a little bit resistant to the likeness of our suburban upbringing. college i went to school in atlanta, georgia went to an hbcu called morehouse college the purpose was there to have fun and graduate. i think in that order, it is probably how i, you know, set myself to it. and within that, there was so much purpose that i found once i got there that school, and the neighboring school spelman college in the university were also lbcu, and they all three of them were very intentional about teaching us as young black people that -- we were full people. and that we mattered and that we got to sort of choose who and what we wanted to be. and then i got my first job

coming out of morehouse at google. and so i moved from -- atlanta to oakland is where i lived in lake merritt and i took funky google bus up and down i guess that was the 101 i can't remember now but down to san jose silicon valley in mountain view headquarters and my purpose there -- became to be whatever google wanted me to be. and i was the culture of silicon valley companies like google is so all encompassing it sort of enveloped my entire life at that time as a 22-year-old so far away from home and friends that my purpose was really just to be a part of the club. however i could. you know, every company has a club, and it is the people who

seem like they're on the right track who feel like they -- set this social dynamic who is feel like they get promoted. who seem to understand how things move around, and so -- i was such a fish out of water in a cultural way that my purpose just became how can i -- how can i get in the club and how can i stay there? and that was painful but i'm sure we'll come back to that. i moved within the company, i moved geographically from silicon valley to new york where i worked out of the chelsea office i moved to london. as a part of a -- the people operations and youtube team there is in london and then back to new york. and i left google in 2014. i went to work the a tech startup that was based on wall street actually, and then i moved to berlin for half a year

to launch an initiate ich for that company and then i came back to new york been in new york basically for the last nine, ten years since then. >> talk a bit more if you would about your father and your mother but in particular in your book you tell the stories about how protective he was of you and how very important it was to you that he passed on to you certain things about how to survive. can you talk a bit about that. >> yeah. i was grateful or i should say grateful now but i was fortunate to have both parents in my home my parents have been married for over i want to say over 35 years now. which is unusual in some regards, and also a tremendous blessing. i think as a kid, it can be -- make some they thinks tough because hard to get away with stuff. it is hard to hide stuff. it is hard to fake certain tasks

or emotions or whatever it is because you've got two sets of eye who is really understand you and really know you keeping watch on you and in my case i also had an older sister who, you know, now she's my best friend but at the time we kind of went back and forth between being allies and being, you know, nemesis in some regards so my dad was -- he came from such a different background than i did. he was from -- detroit city. he grew up in the city time from the suburbs he grew up in 50s and 60s i grew up, obviously, in the 90s. he, his father was in the military. his mother was a nurse. and they were four children in the house. he slept in the kitchen with his brother in a rollup bed i think resources were pretty spare. but they were regimed also right because they had this military influence and they had, you know, they were -- making it work in this city as a black family in that time.

and i think that i'm guessing i'm not certain. but i think when we moved in my childhood from an area closer to d.c. out further into the suburbs where it was a little bit whiter. a little more fluent, i think my dad had it in his head to keep a really close eye on how i was growing up and on where i was and who had -- who else had their eyes on me. he as you'll learn in the book he would follow the school bus to school somedays to make sure that actually got there. he would watch my basketball practices from outside the windows stopples. he was very at times with our neighbors and some of the white in the neighborhood who wanted to come, you know, get me out of the house to come play and go in their house it is things and there were specific rules about how i was to pen gauge our nabs and people in our town, and one of those rules was i wasn't really supposed to go in white kids houses.

without his supervision on my mom there, someone, and and another was i wasn't supposed to wear hats in the car when i started driving on my own and i wupght allowed to have radio over a certain decibel level and trained me on when the police pull owe over be polite yes or no sir just angle your disposition and your spirit in that moment into getting to the next moment. like getting out of that circumstance. and if never give just do what you have to do to avoid giving police control over you more or less. meaning don't get arrested. and those are some of the -- the thing i should say about it is -- he never delivered these messages with mellow dramatic but there was a frankness about them my dad is not reboast not a

big talker or small talker i should say but direct and pretty clear, and he was trying to make sure i could survive living in the suburbs which i think is -- is an irony that i don't think a lot of white people would understand. you know we believe that the suburbs are safe place to grow up. and they were. in a lot of ways for me, they were, it was a -- joyful childhood in a lot of ways but i also came to understand early what earchl i would understand in a much darker and more serious way which is that -- white environments can be very dangerous for black kids. yeah. >> speaking of your dad -- you know just kind of there's a different set of rules or different sets of recommendations in how to survive the white world. there's a quote i wanted to read and ask you about in which he asks you -- what do you think happen it is

to black boy who is pass up opportunities in this world? and you know, you mention this question he's asked you when you were a kid, my question is kind of how is that change as far as your pans answer as a kid maybe you're curious how to answer that. what do you mean and now as an adult as a black man, sure of it that you have -- many answers to that question. >> yes. so one of the ways that my dad and i really connected was -- he was a division one basketball player and he was my basketball coach from most of my life until high school and then even when i had my coach in high school he was a present figure in the sport for me and we would always, you know, dissect my games watch the video, talk about every decision i made out on the court. and so the context what have he was telling me was -- he i guess me saw me being passive in a game and i was being overly --

differential to other players and whatever, some of that is just my nature of how i play the game. i -- i like i'm a team player offensively right. but in that moment, he saw i was open and i didn't take the shot welcome and the truth is that in some points in my life as a young -- you know, athlete, i got the what's the word -- the the gift. leak i would be afraid to take some, you know, surgeon shots at different times some of that because my eyes went bad when i was 13 and i didn't want to play with specks so yungt want to see the rim clearly so it was true what he saw in me and this was sort of the, you know, the gift of having of hyperaware and hyperpresent parent is he noticed what happened in me. i was -- something scared me. and so i didn't act boldly. and if i fast forward throughout my life, after he gave me that feedback, i really stopped

letting fear control my decisions about whether or not to act boldly. especially in a career sense. all of you know everything that happened it that's happening look this is scary right now. right look putting my first book out talking about it to strangers, and you know, standing behind it as to say, this is the representation of my life and my story that sibl true, and that i want you to see. very scary and i think all of us can probably relate to the fear we feel constantly when we're stepping into a new apartment of our lives new apartment of our careers. and whaing my dad wanted me to understand and now i understand as an adult is those opportunities are not infinite especially for black people. especially for -- most minorities. so i did not have, you know, i couldn't defer and pass on big opportunities the way somebody

else would different privileges might be tiebl that's a lngsz i took out of it. >> a lot of teenages both drew their rebellious years and they -- consciencely trying to, you know, step away from their parents and reject some of their values and such. was that different for you -- understanding that what he was teaching you survival and success they thinks that he cared deeply about. >> it wasn't different for me at all. it was worse for me. i mean, i was -- i am a -- yoafnt really love this term but i can be a defiant person. i have what's the -- i have authority issues. i guess is the way to describe it. i question and pick at authority and other people making decisions for me. and i don't know if that is how

i was born. i don't know if that's genetics or if that is a response to having hyperaware type a, you know, present parents i don't know which one of those is true. but even though i knew and thawnd my dad loved me and that's -- my mom also and that's why they were so -- influential and present it didn't stop me from also wanting to carve my space to make my own decisions and -- i think you know, frankly even now in early 30s that's something that i -- it's a part of every decision that i make especially with people who are older and wiser is that i want to experience the adventure of making my own decisions and making getting them wrong like i think that's where the art and creativity is in wrong decision that you make and ways that they gnarl and,

you know, ruffle like this clean little life and path that you think you have. but wise people who care about me always want to help me make, quote, unquote better decisions. and so it it is still a struggl. i think that -- one thing i learned from the industry from silicon valley is -- there have been many great companies that have had tremendous success that started off as some other bad idea that didn't work. and if they had -- if the founders of those companies are entrepreneurs behind those companies had listened to someone who said that's a terrible idea it is never going work. they might have -- been dead in their tracks and we might not have the google and cisco and lincolns and -- übers the world. and this same is true as a writer as an artist. you know if -- if at any point i let somebody tell me that's not the way to go. and i just listen to it and it kills my idea then, i can't make

anything. and the reason why i even bring that up is because -- it can feel sometimes as a black person that the walk you have to tight rope you have to walk is so rigid there's no space for those type of mistakes that you learn from that stimulate creativity, and build amazing things. >> you talk about racial duality with each of your interview subjects black leaders who were futured in the book, and yeah my mind it was -- i had experienced in similar experiences of racial duality but i didn't know that that's what it is called. what is racial duality? >> i don't know if that's what it is called that's what i called it. the way i think of it you'll see every -- every one of the 15 subjects in the book sort of saw it differently or saw it in their own way in my mind it's everything let's say as -- as surface level as my cadence,

the way that i talk, the way that i pronounce certain words, the way that i dress. the way that i make eye contact, the way that i give a handshake, you know, any time i change those things to make someone and specifically often to make white people feel more comfortable or more connected to me, that is a form of creating duality in myself. it is presenting to them or performing a different version of myself. and then when i -- you know, in a different group of people not necessarily black people but let's just say, you know, latin x people or -- asian people or whomever, and i bring a different version of myself, then now i've started to create there's this duality in who i am and how i'm presenting migs myself and i think the gift of that is -- it is built on an exercise of o

and empathy which is to -- see someone create understanding where they coming from and where they see the world and sort of give them what they might be asking for and what they might want out of that and that's an important skillset to have in product development and sales and marketing. the danger of it is you can lose a hold of who you actually are when there is no audience. when there's nobody on the other side looking altius and telling you who they want you to be bit way they are posture or talking or not listening to you. so that's what racial duality is to me. >> you mentioned a little while ago, kind of even how going out and discussing your life and the people that you learn juxtapose. in the beginning of the book you talk about, you know, you talk more than 200 maybe in the beginning somewhere the this book you mention you talk more than 200 people of this book

from all of the walks of life some of them are big names but write most celebrity not willing to take much risk and likely won't know the names of the interviewed subjects in the book. why do you think black selects wouldn't open up this way and reveal is it the -- fear that it will make them look bad in the eyes of their supporters or of, you know, white culture scriet scrutinizing them? what is your thought in that? >> i think it it can be bad for your bank account to upset white people. i think it can be -- if you're a public figure and you're also often available to people's criticism through social media or just by walking down the street, you can you can incite unpleasant interactions. i don't fall --

the famous people who don't want to unnecessarily create those reactions. i blame, i blame a society that isn't ready to listen to the truth about what people have experienced or what people have gone through racially in their lives. i think you know, on the other side of things, i really admire and celebrate the people in this book who are also leaders across industries. tech, finance, religion, science, academia, activism, media, who these people also have, you know, they have qhiet clients. they have white colleagues we have white subordinate and audiences to keementd keep in mind and yet still i would be blown away from the torch that people came with to share these experiences. everything from --

suicide attempts to because of how terrible it felt to be black in certain places to -- being called by close friends that get togethers to qight and leaving industries altogether as i did because you felt who you are doesn't fit. so i think in that regard the selects could learn something from people who have real jobs. [laughter] >> doesn't that work surrounded by celebrities like yourself? >> yeah. i know for sure, you know, from folks tuning in right now especially we're here in san francisco bay area, want to hear if google and your experiences there especially the recent news they're firing of an a.i. ethnic

researcher. what you know that culture was like i'm going to read a quote from one the interview subjects. i didn't feel comfortable enough being black which is one of the main reasons i think a lot of blacks are not successful in tech companies especially google and amazon because they don't feel accepted into the culture. the culture is not made for them. it is made for the masses of the white majority. yeah. let's talk about that. what that means, i think for many people you think about google it is a global -- huge company. they represent everybody. >> it was scary to write about my experience at google and i went easy. i admire the people who do these long tweet threads and talk about their experiences. because that's scary to do. what i will say is that while my experience at google did make -- i did feel that way like this is

a -- club that feels like that feels like and ivy league fraternity in some regards. in doing research to this book and getting to know other companies frankly moving into another industry that operates very similar sly -- this is not a google specific problem. although google is in some ways -- a shining star is that other companies want to emulate i don't think google created white guy nepotism. if we look at the top these companies -- we know only 1% of fortune 5 ceos are black. we know many of these big companies like google, facebook, jpmorgan they do diversity reports every year, and

generously, less than 6, 7% of their employees are black. there's an issue and every time i go and do like a corporate talk or every time i go and tiewk a company about my experiences of black pern working in corporate america i try to go do research before hand if there's especially if they're, you know, a public company where i can find all of their information publicly. i go look up the executive, cfo, cpo, whoever i go look up the majority shareholders i look up founders and it is usually a group of group of 10 to 15 guys who runs hr or black person thrown in who works on legal team or whatever. and these are generally companies that have this issue to bring to every conversation

who say they go and hire black people and we just can't figure out how to keep them how to move up the company and how to perform highly it just doesn't work, and -- it feels clear to me that the issue is that the people at the top don't look like the people at the bottom so there's no real -- there's no real energy to try to move them up and further and further into that prestigious clubhouse. so -- the irony or i guess the conflict that i always feel when i talk about google is that i learned i learned how to work at google. like, i was able to take what i learned there and apply it to this other industry which is supposed to be so hard and so challenging and so like tough to get in. and the system in the way of theg and ways of being creative and ways of disruption that i learned from that company,

google, really have been a tremendous help for me. but i still i must be honest i'm still resentful that i felt like i was an outsider trying to be a part of the boys club and it just was never going happen. >> you mentioned this statistics of the low levels of black employees at google and other beg tech companies and big companies as well. but -- there was that moment where silicon valley seem to be having a come to jesus moment on its mode adversity level they're making all of the giant promises few years ago, and then the next year the staff came out and they were little if at all changed. your book and you have a apartment of their book saying who is this book for? and it's not written to the ceo of google and amazon and such. but what would you, if you say you're going to talk to companies what do you say to the

people there's one thing of -- you don't look like the people you're trying to attract. but what other things could they do so another young you coming into the company would have had a better experience? >> in my opinion the only thing that's going make sustainable changes is to change what their boardrooms look like to -- you know, the most provocative thing i would say is step down. and signal a successor that looks different from you. of course nobody will do that as they say in sports you don't fire the owner. but my -- my point of view is that it's just that's -- i don't know. i don't understand like is it human nature, is it ainsure sha momentum what is the reason why a room full of white guys can't create an environment that is conducive to growth and comfort and safety of people that look different than that? i don't know the toons that.

but i now at this point feel really convinced that it is true. that that is, that is the case. so my mention to them would be get rid of one of your friends and replace them to someone who looks different from you. my message to people who have a toxic environment a toxic relationship with their employer is the same as if i would give them if they have a toxic relationship with a spouse or -- or a substance abuse problem. it would be -- get out of there. and figure something else out and this book is meant to be written in such a way that i'm offering to them what the tools and tactics they have that are going help them if they do decide to get out or if they want to stay to navigate laborant but the short answer to your question and it is

unfortunate is, i don't think those people want to hear what i have to say. [laughter] >> we do. yeah. stayingen that topic last summer after the death of george floyd it seemed like a lot of people were waking up to racial injustice and all of a sudden you had large corporations you have organizations who were announcing that they were hiring or they were promoting an african-american person or they were donating large sums of money to racial justice and not sure what that actually means or what that entails. so would love to hear your perspective on what happened that transpired with all of these companies now who seem to be -- i guess the word is woke -- and as you feel that, you know, this is all -- is this progress is this -- is this, you know, finally they're going to do something about this? >> progress. i have such a confusing

relationship with that word right now. it sometimes feels like the opposite of completion. it feels so incremental i'm a millennial we do not like incrementalism. we like -- we like this idea that something can be just done. like we want is to be the ceo of something we just go start something. is it progress? i think it is awareness. you know, referencing the diversity reports that you just, you just mention in the last question. we all now no one can deny that this is a problem. no one can deny there's a representation problem. in these corporations, but awareness is not the same as change and it is surgery not the same as progress.

in some ways, it is a little bit more humiliating to know that we're all aware now that this is an issue. and yet and i don't -- i have to take a little of the honest off all of the middle managers between repasting at the top of netflix whoever works at bottom all of those people in between i'm going to not pay attention to them in the second. the lead ergs, bheem own the company, majority shareholders, board, way to executives that's the company everybody educational else is a practitioner a stiewrt of their desires. so if they wanted this thing, if they wanted it fixed they would fix it. that's it. >> one of our audience asks so you work in silicon valley then you went to europe you were in berlin working there. they're asking about any differences in culture or --

or work place culture between the two. >> i loved working in google london was like one of the most enjoyable it was like the most fun i've ever had. some of it. and when i worked in berlin i was there by myself we didn't have a office small startup and we wandering around berlin partying and working that was awesome too but i can't -- to the environment there yeah. london in plon don -- i -- there was something i did find a new strength behind my voice there was something to being a black american in another country where they have preconceptions about who i was and formed by couple people they have met in their lifetime and tv and movies and music. it felt like they liked me more. [laughter] it felt like i got to sort of define for them who i was.

and it felt like there was more of an open-minded curiosity about that than a -- let's see if this guy is going to confirm what we already know about this type of people. there was freedom. i felt -- i felt i should say i felt freedom and i'm, you know, i understand that there's racism in every country whether it is race. and so i don't mean to say that that's the experience for everybody that lives in the u.k. that looks like me but my experience was -- i felt and maybe it wasn't even truly freedom or weightlessness but i felt like the first of weightlessness that i had felt since being at morehouse. and i started becoming myself. and that changed me. that made me -- i keep saying this word but it

made me bolder. it made me -- come back to the united states with a different energy about how i was going to dot things that i cared about. and the truth is that i left the company because i came back with that boldness but i was not met with -- particular receptiveness to that boldness, and then i realized maybe this corporate thing isn't -- isn't for me. you mentioned you moved to -- oakland, california from atlanta. grown up around in washington, d.c. area. do you think that you will have either felt differently working in google office in atlanta or virginia or maryland or area that you grew up do you think

you would have been more yourself from the start had you gone there where you had to friends around you even after what was going after working with your frengtdz talking ab horrible work place or in other words how much -- were you restricting yourself because you were in a completely new part of the country and -- away from all of the family and friends. >> the separation was definitely a factor. in london but silicon valley has such a -- in many ways sterile and monochrome sort of techture. you know it is -- i feel bad saying these things to you guys but it is -- it felt like at time it is felt

leak a frat house and it felt like it felt like one big craft beer. and it wasn't so much of a separation from people who i cared about as much as it was also -- i did not know i should say thousand access anything outside of that silicon valley culture there. it didn't feel like i could reach it i would wake up in the morning at 7 a.m. and get on a google bus. at 8 a.m., i would travel down the mountain view. i was at the office eating all day because there's free food there. so i never left that campus. until i left at 6:30 got back on that same bus, to oakland got all of the bus at if 7:30 it was nighttime so if i would go home and you know, hang out for a couple of hours and go to sleep.

so -- in a way it was -- it became my life it became my world. and my value was whatever i felt like it had been a workday that was it. >> you asked some of your subjects in your book kind of what they would say to another young, you know, black person you can step into leadership or -- actually any black person. you know, watching or listening to you and reading your book and you talking about finally not giving a crap and being bold, being yourself, all of that led to just kind of breaking free. and becoming very successful, leaving silicon valley and then to, you know, staying at a book deal, movie series lots of young people say i want to do that, i want to be just like you. what would you say to the young

black folks who are saying that to them right now? >> i would say the most important thing is to be just like you. which is to say -- leaving -- i don't, i don't remember everybody diswrows quit their job and try to do whatever is cool and important to mention i had some very, i had a couple of very scary years after i left corporate america where my income was sparse. i was living with not very much. i missed birthdays and baby showers and weddings, and i lost friends because of that. because i was making decisions to invest everything in this

journey to being a writer that would have been stupid if i wasn't god at writing and that's what i'm trying to say here is -- be honest with yourself about what your gifts are. i have been writing since i was three years old when my sister taught me how to do it. i was doing it all of the team anyway. it wasn't like i -- and trying to a professional trombonist. so my point in saying that is, of course, it is -- , of course, you can do something for a living if you're great at it and willing to sacrifice and invest many it and sacrifices are real like i said they are in some cases they are friendship, time, embarrassment, they are living with very little. they are dating while having very little.

so if you are willing to do all of that stuff, and if you have a gift which i'm sure you do, and if that gift lends to what you're trying to accomplish, then i would recommend it. because it is a cool and fun way to live. but it might take couple of years. or longer -- >> one of your fathers rules that you relate in the book is, quote, don't get your sense of self-worth from entrance of black people in the news -- that movies and television, they will destroy you un, quote. i'm assume he was referring to negative and kind of the depiction of black people and so much of the culture. but what about positive depictions. our -- the importance of that and you know representation on the screen and politics and movies and stuff like that. >> well the irony is that i write screen plays for a living but i wasn't really allowed to

watch very much tv. and i think the lesson there, you know, i still don't watch very much tv all the time for my job people are like have you watched this, watched this, that and i'm a snob about it i watched stuff that goes to be like the consensus best stuff like i watch the sopranos i watch "game of thrones," the wire, i watched, you know -- whatever i think is going to be worth those hours. and i don't put that much of my attention into other things until lately, obviously, for promotion i haven't spent a lot of time on social media. i don't mean that to be holier than now but that is because my parent trained my eyeballs and brain to not fixate on screens we did watch a ton of sports and i still do. and way that's meditation for me, but i say all of that to say i don't -- i don't think you should let anybody else's creation define

who you are. and how you evaluated i don't think we should lean on people crafted images and writing to craft their own ideas. i'm trying to forget out what are positive depiction of black people in the media in any opinion honestly most of it comes from sports specifically the nba i think has a very positive -- positive image at this point and time. but -- i see the way stuff gets made now that i'm kind of under the hood. i see who makes decisions on what gets made. i see how often -- those decisions are made based on solution and lowest common denominator and reach most audiences, and i think it is very dangerous for anyone to

watch tv or instagram or tiktok or facebook and think that what they're looking at has much of anything to do with who they actually are. >> on that point i love imha you wrote your article in "time" magazine from in talking about black being trendy black content or stories of -- of black -- you go on any of the streaming platforms and it is like it's entire channel it is telling you here it is, and you know you're going to be a good person. you're not racist. you're watching all of these. i don't know. these are jus some things that i feel like it is jumping out at me and almost feels like i'm cheating. you know, for justice in a way. but yeah i would love to hear you just talk again about what you meant in your article all of this content may come at a cost,

and kind of what we should be mindful of while it is great is great that young these studio and companies are now wanting content but making it trend did i in this way what that means for undoing, you know, racial injustice. >> yeah. well they want content because it is hot they want it because it is -- it's pop cultural right now. they want it because people are clicking. and these people are middle managers they make very, very, very -- unsophisticated decisions. so my warning to myself and others is i would avoid being cast or silo as a creator of quote unquote black content because -- that is lucrative right now, and

while i would arizona grabbing money while it is there from me prnlly i think it is important to use that as a foundation to a much more diverse portfolio creation than to get siloed as this person makes black stuff. i think if i can use an analogy, i think about diversity and inclusion departments at beg companies which are primarily seen as cost centers by the people at the top those companies, and when budgettings get tight and when things, when wind blow and sort of the company estimates decisions about where budget cuts happen which means where people are getting fired a lot of times -- the finger point to those dni departments that are not serving bolt lean and if you're completely reliance on somebody good will and wanting to do -- you know, wanting to do charity,

for your paycheck, that's really dangerous. and so i see this same thing being true about what feels like this new fervent you know passionate, investment in black content in media. that's real and that's happening and people are getting paid from doing it. i just -- i wouldn't anchor my entire ship on that, and that's why i personally, i also don't, you know, it came new a conversation yesterday. i wanted to be clear like i'm a writer. i make -- i make tv i make movies, i make media. i'm not an activist. now if my art serves activism that's great. but i think we have to be intentional and specific about these things because what is valuable to somebody today,

tomorrow can be a nuisance to them, and they will dismiss you. >> if you don't serve the bottom line anymore. >> let's talk a little bit about the book now released two day ago officially right? >> that's correct, yep. >> so talk a bit about, you know, you said you've been writing for pretty much your whole life. what was it like when did you make the decision to not only write a book but to write this book. and how did it come together when you were reaching out to people to talk with and was it -- easier than you thought it would be harder or tell us about it. >> so i -- had the vision for the book i was 26 maybe i was working at that text on wall street. the name, you know, the w of it all hit me out of nowhere. and it's one of those weird things when you have a vision i can see the whole thing, and i

had no idea how to make it actually happen. i didn't know how the publish industry worked i didn't know about getting book agent and all of these other things. all of these other parts of the sequencing but when i wrote my tv pilot, i got signed by wme, the agency. and you go in to a big room that has a big wooden table and i sat down and executives come in and one of them was a booing book agent. then it was like okay this was one plus one equals two now i have other faculties not for just writing screen plays but if i want to do a book, documentary i haveful pros who do that so eve my book agent i picture to book over phone one day and she jumped on it and you know by someone's reaction if it has like something. you know? and her reaction was like yeah this is something.

so i -- starting in 2017 i set sail over the next two and a half years after we had a deal with simon and schuester really just interviewing anybody who i thought had an interesting or admirable job or career path that i wanted to learn from and e reached out to a stillon people through other faculties people i didn't know and friends of family, friends, whatever, and i got around 200 conversations out of it. and the 15 -- i honestly would say just that like the 15 best went in the book and that's to say, the 15 that felt the most honest -- the 15 that spanned the most emotion in their story telling. and the 15 that i thought could take clear and specific identifiable lessons and tactics

from those are the ones that i put in the book. what i was looking for was -- again i started when i was still trying to be, you know, the ceo of a big company and that's vision has changed in the means that i want to approach it but not necessarily in the goal. but i was asking questions that i needed to myself, and i didn't want to write a book like the secret. like i didn't want to write the four agreements and something that was very spiritually satisfying but not executable in the same way. i wanted to write something closer to the four hour workweek to be honest. something that more like good to grate or zero to one, and and i think that combination of applicable identifiable, specific, and traumatic triumphant, happy, sad scary, funny --

is what i ended up with. >> which is the title black magic. you know, one of the things that i loved about the book you guys getting to know you is that it validated these lived experiences of black people in the work place. and so you know, as we wind down here on time, i think that we have to talk a whole lot more about these thins that it really shouldn't be swept under the rug or -- or, you know, even people who are not black in the work place you know it, it is happening you're witnessing it shouldn't talk about it. but that corporate world is pretty scary you're always scared of losing your job. so if you wouldn't mind just talking about the importance of being able to speak about your experiences to validate what you're going through, and you know kind of how you navigate the work place going forward as a black person. >> i think that any person, it

is in enlightening and it stems creative thoughts when you see that other people are going through what you're going through. and you see how they navigated you might not take the exact same steps but maybe steps one-three and steps 7-8 may be the same i had a conversation with a 65-year-old white guy whose family lost their 17-year-old daughter to cancer a year ago who said, i read your book. i'm not black, obviously. but damn if i have an experience in trauma and it is helping my wife and i think about -- not how we're going get through this because -- how do you get through it i don't know but once you do get through it, how we can look at what we just went through the pain the suffering, heart ache, and take what is beginning to be helpful to us and valuable as we move forward. that's what this book is about. it's the opposite of consumerism. it is how do i use what i

already have and if you're black, what you already have is like liam nissan in taken skill and tactics from navigating craziness and death around you, and fear, and this boogeyman that you're not allowed to be happy and be self-activated. and if you gotten through all of that, just to a cubicle or a pitch meeting or -- college, or a job whatever you're doing, it is powerful to get there and you need to know what it is that you've done so you can use it for your own devices. >> i love it. john. >> not a question i was going ask but kind of along those lines do you at this point in your life feel you're a success. do you feel you're being able to

do whether you're at a project or not do you feel you're doing what you are meant to do and you're doing it in a fulfilling way? >> well those are two different questions. i mean i'll take the latter first. so i think i'm doing what i'm meant to do because i've been doing this my whole life. ... what i would spend my free time doing was writing, creating, screenplays, trying to do this other stuff. now that this is my job quote-unquote, this is like breathing. i have been doing this since i was a little kid.

it feels natural. it feels like a fish swimming. so i don't have to question whether or not i meant to do this. i know that much. now, am i the success? i'm probably getting a b+ today. i think i had an a+ yesterday. every day that's the question, did i do what god asked of me today? is basically the question i ask myself sometimes, and the answer varies. i think i am a success today, yeah, i think i'm doing the right thing today. >> i think you're a success and i love this book. i think everybody should grab a copy so do today, black magic by chad sanders. thank you so much for being here with us at the commonwealth club of california. >> thank you. this is great. very stimulating questions.

>> john, , you have the last wo. >> i will take the honor of again thinking chad sanders for his book, black magic, it just went out on sale. you can find online if you actually have indie books, a genuine bookstore and rebut but i'm sure they have as well but check it out and you can find more about our upcoming programs you at the commonwealth club at commonwealthclub.org/mmf. stacy everyone and have a good rest of the week. >> thank you. ♪ >> you are watching booktv on c-span2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. booktv on c-span2 created by america's cable-television companies. today we are brought to you by d's television companies who provide booktv to viewers as a public service.