tonight, and i hope everyone would pick up a copy and read "the money plot." i enjoyed it tremendously. it is available from other press, through our site and your local library or your local independent bookstore. any closing thoughts? >> just thank you. i really appreciate it. great conversation. >> it surely was and you have a wonderful evening, everyone out there, good night and come back and see us soon. >> you are watching booktv on c-span2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. booktv on c-span2 greeted by america's cable-television companies. today were brought to you by these television company to provide booktv to viewers as a public service. >> tonight we are thrilled that with us charlotte bismuth and

her new book "bad medicine." she start a legal career -- [inaudible] and joint in your county district attorney's office in 2008 as an appellate attorney. in 2010 she transmitted office of the special narcotics -- prosecutes felony narcotics crimes. after work on the landmark manslaughter prostitution of drs office to advocate for victims of the opioid epidemic. in partnership with activist, grieving families, academics, journalists and physicians, she has called for accountability from big pharma and other entities responsible for launching the opioid epidemic. charlotte also should on the consulting prosecutor center for excellence, nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting best practices in prosecution. she is a graduate of columbia university, columbia law school and the institute for political

science in paris percolates in your city with her husband and children. joining charlotte is patricia mccormick, a two-time national book award finalist izzie offer several critically acclaimed novels including never fall down, the true story of one who survived the killing fields of cambodia, and sold, special trafficking there was a definite feature film in 2015. she's also the co-author of i am malala from the story of malala use of computers were shot by the taliban and her fight for education. her book the plot to kill hitler was published in 2016. first picture book, the true story of a horse who became a hero cannot in 2017. she attended rosemont college, has an msa from the new school. she lives in new york. so without further ado please welcome charlotte bismuth and

patricia mccormick to the stage. >> hi, everyone. thank you very much for coming. i'm charlotte. >> and i am patty. >> we wanted to start off just by acknowledging that the action is not just on the screen with us but in the audience tonight you are surrounded by people who made a very, very big difference in the lives of others. the book is the story from the frontlines of the opioid epidemic. there are three young men named matt dingle among us who was the person who reported dr. li to the police. he saved many lives, and i just want to acknowledge his contribution tonight. i also see that my partners stephanie, investigator joe thomas unitar counsel peter are

here and i thank them and all the court reporters and all of you for coming. because this was a case that resulted in so much loss of life, patty and i would like to start with a short moment of reflection. i've written out the names of a few of the victims from this case but, of course, i know we all have others in mind, in her mind and in our hearts, so they can take a few moments to think about them. >> thank you. >> thank you, charlotte. i am very happy to be a tonight to help you launch this wonderful book. i am someone who nearly lost someone to the opioid epidemic. i'm grateful to you, as are many people who are here tonight.

>> thank you. >> i met charlotte at a reading that walter kirn was getting, and i instantly knew that she was a writer. she's a very talented and ambitious prosecutor as well i can tell that the soul of a writer living in her. and some very happy to see that this book has come to fruition. i also had the honor of seeing her in court. i was so intrigued by the story that she was pursuing, the case that she was pursuing that it went to see her in court. and so i can picture many of the scenes that are in this story, and i saw her doing her finest work. so as many of you know, i know many of the people in the audience are familiar with the book or have been part of the investigation, had family and loved ones who were involved in

this case, but for those of you who may not know, it is a wonderful page turning legal thriller about a dirty doctor who ran a pill lab that resulted in the deaths of many people. and charlotte and her team pursued in starting with just a tip that came in on a post-it note, and really made legal history in prosecuting this doctor for homicide. so charlotte, i wonder if you would just start at that moment on receiving the tip. i know you mentioned the tipster is with us tonight and has allowed you to make it a public for the first time but when you talk about when that case first came to you. >> thank you. and, yes, i should've mentioned that. i do have his permission tonight to reveal his name, which is

ascendant in the book, the name of 80 in the book. so in 2010 i was a relatively junior prosecutor at the office of special narcotics prosecutor, and we received a tip. my office had been noticing a significant and concerning uptick in prescription drug crimes. that night my boss had to be a little note with a detectives name, a doctors name, and an address on 49th street in queens. now, she said that the tipster had said only that this is a doctor who was prescribing medication to kids who didn't need them. and, of course, it was serious enough to have been reported but also as a product that at the prosecutor's office we did know if we were the right ones to handle the case because doctors

prescribe medications. that is what they do. so for the first few weeks i did background research on dr. li whose name of been on that poster. i was lucky enough to have seen investigator joe hall, a veteran nypd homicide detective on the case. when we were having trouble having access to the complainant, and joe hall threw his incredible detective work was able to track down the brave young man and bring him in for a conversation with us. it was at that point that we understood that we might be dealing with a very unique situation, a doctor who had a site up in his office in which advertise the price of his services, per pill, per prescription with extra fees if you came early with extra fees if you are also receiving controlled substances from other doctors. a doctor who didn't care about his patients suffering in the

sense that he didn't investigate their pain. he didn't send them out for diagnostic tests. all he did was write a prescription, ask for the money, and assuming patients said it over so many years that followed, he took that money and put it in the pocket of his white coat. so on that night with a little post-it note i really had no idea, not just that the case would end up changing my life, but thanks to the complainant it would end up saving lives in bringing some measure of closure of the families who were really in a tremendous amount of suffering after their loss, , te loss of their loved ones, thinking they had been the ones to fail. >> that's an important point that i want to pick up on, the role of the loved ones in helping you see this case through. and your connection with them in a way which you kept their concern front and center at all times, to be aware of the real

human victims of this case. >> you know, from the very beginning the case was about human beings and human suffering. dr. li of course ultimately at trial twisted that to say that he had been deceived by patients were lying to him or who are saying they were in pain. but the real pain was among the patients and those families who had been either seeking a legitimate physician who would help them with their condition, or who had been suffering from opioid use disorder and were visibly distressed, visibly requiring assistance or referral. doctrinally monetize their suffering. so when we realized that human beings, patients had been betrayed by a physician and that the families actually in some cases knew quite a bit because they knew that their loved one,

their child or father or sister seeing a doctor, and they felt in trust because of that. i think specifically joseph's sister who told us, he was seeing a doctor so it was okay just to take himself and his final moments wrote a note to his family in which he said i have used illegal drugs in years. years. so there was this profound betrayal at work. it became really, really crucial to us to connect with the patients, with the survivors, with the families and had them come forward and have them tell the jury what they had seen, that this was actually really about a man driven by greed. >> i remember in the book that you kept a picture of one of the victims and maybe others that you kept one on your desk as the investigation started.

>> i actually had a photo of a young man named nicolas who passed away at the age of 21. on the day of the opening statement i was petrified, beyond petrified especially because the beginning of the trial had been put off from one day to the next to the next, and i just wanted to remind myself of why we were there. i think anybody who has considered becoming a prosecutor or who has served in that role knows about serving the victims, especially the ones who cannot speak for themselves, is really a sacred duty. and for me to have the face of nicholas whose life was interrupted, whose mother had become a very important person in my life, and that reminded me of why we were there and it allowed me to overcome the testing may be not overcome.

i won't lie. i didn't overcome the nerve but to push through. >> i'm going to read an excerpt from a letter that was sent i one of the families to dr. li. this letter is in regards to our daughter and your patient as she is in very bad shape both mentally and physically as well. please, you must stop prescribing these deadly doses of drugs ranging from methadone to you name it. she is one foot away from a serious od. what was it like to meet dr. li the first time? >> well, after reading those patient files and reading that letter and notes from recording his conversation with other parents, when i first saw him on the day of arraignment, it was a relief to know that we had shut down his clinic. that was in november 2011. we also knew it was the

beginning of a long journey this week to let so much work to do to trace back the criminal conduct and capture it through the actions of another grand jury. but i think i can safely speak for my trial partner, peter, and for joe hall, and anybody else who worked on the case that it was an enduring mystery to know how he had come to sit in front of these men and women and write out those prescriptions and take that cash, and even have the presence of mind to require the extra $50 when they had strayed from his path. it's something i won't understand ever. sadly, we learned recently that dr. li had died in prison of covid and, of course, i knew that anyone who worked on the

case feels that nobody deserves a lonely and isolated death. anything also points out the fact that we will never know. but with respect to the u read, that letter letter shockingly have been submitted to dr. li in 2007. 2007. we found it in the patient files in 2011. aldo had dr. li continued to prescribe and sell prescriptions after that date that he continue to prescribe the very medication that those parents were begging him to stop. >> and you describe a really shabby operation, a shabby place, as you said the prices are posted on the wall almost like sandwich prices at a deli. can you talk about really the long, painstaking process that you and investigators and your partner went through to make sure you have a case that you

wanted to bring? >> i think everyone from the team who was on this crowd cast right now is probably having flashbacks to a lot of very long heated debates, very long meetings in conference rooms, sessions going through 1200 patient files page by page reading them on her own, reading into each other, escalating them to our supervisors. we had an incredible consultant on the homicide front, nancy, who has served as the right-hand woman, she's in the trial division she came in to really bet the homicide cases and educate us about what would be required. it was very tough and it was daunting because of course you want to bring charges they capture the criminal conduct but at the same time you don't want

to overreach and endanger the case. it involved a lot of legal research. the letter that you read again in the patient files everyone looking for a couple things. we were looking for patients who had come whose vulnerability had been visible or no to dr. li, meaning maybe their physicians had called dr. li as in the case of one patient whose emergency-room psychiatrist called dr. li and said your patient is in the er in an overdose or can get dr. li continue to prescribe. nations who like nicholas rappold had only been a few times to see dr. li with a bare-bones complaint of pain, and with sometimes months going between visits who dr. li new righetti substances from other doctors and yet he continue to prescribe.

so gradually we built up this filtering process where even though there was a tremendous universe of harm. i mean, yet over 1200 patients. we learned of 16 16 patientso had died of overdoses either while under his care or within a year of leaving his practice, but we had to filter it down. we gradually brought it down to 20 patients we present evidence to a grand jury. there were, i can't remember the exact number of grand juries, but over a dozen men and women who came in and heard a case over six months, heard evidence and voted on 218 charges against dr. li including two counts of homicide. >> charlotte, was at one moment where you really caught an incredible break in the case and things turn? or conversely, was her one maybe more moments where you thought,

it's not going to happen? >> i would say on the land that was pretty much every minute of every day for four years. we felt we were walking a tight rope. it was such a broad and complex case. trying to keep track of all the medical records and all the patients and the testimony was difficult. there were breaks in the case and those breaks came in part because of that sort of obsessive work we were doing. i remember one day i believe it was an 2012 when joe hall and i were in a conference room on the investigators floor, this big conference room, it's a little bit dusty, joe, you should know that, and we had been in there for hours. we had in front of us boxes and boxes of material that had been seized from the doctors home in new jersey. we were going through really

page by page, going through receipts, going through, he kept ledgers with the names of every patient who it seen him on every day that he was open and the amount of money they had paid him. and then at one point we came across a yellow folder, and in that yellow folder there were a couple of loose sheets that were of the same format as dr. li's patient files. joe and and i was sort of ps to why they had been in new jersey, why they were with the files they belong to feel, and as often happened when i was working with joe we would sit and look at each other and then he would run off, he ran off to the locker to grab the patient files that belonged to the sheets and we compared then. in that moment we realize that dr. li had falsified some of his patient records. why did this matter? it mattered because those

patients were come his treatment of those particular patients was under scrutiny by the state administrative board. so we had consciousness of guilt. we had an awareness that not only his records were an adequate, that practice was inadequate and that it was criminal and it was hurting them. so that moment i think was a real turning point because we knew that it isn't about the money, back but to read thy compelling evidence of dr. li's lack of credibility not only made us feel like we're on the right track, but we knew that was important evidence to present to a grand jury and to a trial. and i would add that these moments which are portrayed in hollywood, the sort of happened and everything is fine, that's not how it happens in reality as peter would tell you that he then spent i would say easily dozens of hours painstakingly comparing every sheet of paper in each of the 20 patient files

for each of the victims whom we brought up at trial to make sure that there were no differences, and to show the jury the extent of the falsification. it was a couple of hours of testimony at trial, and behind that there was so much work by peter and the witness in preparing for that moment. i do think it made a big difference to the jury. >> i remember reading, wrong, that the dea had already come to talk to them or to warn him therefore whether other coming-of-age in the state as well. what failed to catch him before this? >> i am inclined to say everything, at the same time he did a very, very good job of keeping up the façade. dr. li when he was confronted by the dea in 2009 assured them

that he was conducting full exams for every patient. in the few occasions when he was asked for patient files, for instance, when the state oversight agency contacted him on one occasion even when a medical examiner contacted him, he falsified the record. he also had a full-time job in a very well respected hospital in new jersey. the window complaints. he was a very well-qualified doctor with excellent credentials. he was an anesthesiologist. if he knew how to do anything it was to bring people into a state of unconsciousness and then safely bring them back. so in addition to everything else, he enjoyed the privilege of his status picky enjoyed the trust of the dea and as a society, and they think that is what allowed him to continue exploiting the pain of his patients for so long.

>> this is also very much a story of the team, the people you worked with, and in particular your relationship with your colleague, peter. can you talk about the many miles the two of you have traveled? >> yes. peter, who heard an early draft of the book, was kind enough and unsurprisingly for his character sort of brave enough to tell me, this is literally what he told me, you are allowed to talk about the difficulties that we had. that meant so much because i think that the level of respect and friendship that i have for peter now comes not only from having been in the trenches together with the joe, with stephanie, with all the brave witnesses who came forward, but

it also comes from having had to butt heads over the bit and then talk about it. we had a remarkable number of very awkward discussions with the preparation of the trial. we would you say why can't we agree on anything? the fact is we did have a lot of disagreements, but our styles were so complementary. i tended to sort of overstretched beyond what was absolutely necessary to prove the case, and peter who had actually tried not just a few homicides before but any homicides before, would bring me back and say this is what we need to focus on, this is what really matters. that is absolutely essential, and said to have his blessing to tell the truth about what a productive working relationship is like, what does it mean to really go through a test of

endurance, you know, like that was very meaningful. and also i went to read the book to peter, and inevitably there would be either his son or somebody else meaningful to him there with us. so i knew that it was just an incredible experience to read it to him and have his feedback, and also have somebody else there to respond. it was like being in the editing room, but for a book. >> and you have developed a real friendship out of this in the end. >> for my part, yes. i hope peter would agree. >> charlotte, you also bear a lot of yourself in the book. the narrative of your own life runs parallel to the narrative of the case. i i can't imagine that was easyo be as honest as you were.

can you talk about that decision a little bit? >> yes your first, i will avoid that question by saying that the story is not just about the friendship with peter but my tremendous respect for him and joe hall and the amount of work that they did. i knew that i had fussed over the case but they also brought decades of experience comes to o working with the two of them was transformative and actually really, really helped me deal with what was happening in my life. because i was learning how to channel it. yes, it was terrifying to talk about the personal aspects. but again i have come to believe it is really important to sort of lift the curtain on the reality of prosecution, the reality of crime, the reality of the so-called worklife balance which i think is, you know, as one friend said it is no

worklife, just work life choices. it was hard. i asked my children if it was okay with them. they set certain limits. i respected those limits. and for the depression and anxiety, i think i have come to understand a lot about the stigma attached not just to opioid use disorder but also to mental health issues. i think there's a real struggle to conform to expectations that need to be discussed, and it would invent such a relief to me to know that -- would have been -- others were expensing the same thing. i received so many heartfelt messages from my team members about it now and the fact is working with them changed everything. >> for me as a reader it made me feel much closer to you and,

therefore, more trusting of everything that you said because you were willing to be honest about the stress and strain of your job, was happening in your marriage. some happy to hear you have gotten feedback from other readers that has been a meaningful piece of the book for them. .. not just still struggling with the aftermath of doctor li but they were brave enough to come forward so whatever i

was experiencing being nervous on the first day or trying to put this case together and get my documents in order was absolutely nothing compared to what we were asking ofthem . what we are asking of them was to come forward and tell a grand jury and then a jury about their past, about their struggles, even about the fact that they told dr. li lies in order to have him prescribed more. and asking a jury to believe them and then subjecting themselves to cross-examination which i think in the case of one young woman, michael cornett is girlfriend really resulted in terrible pain because dr. li's defense attorney confronted her with the fact that her own physician had been prescribing her boyfriend in addition to dr. li a separate physician who treated her had been prescribing her boyfriend a

staggering number of drugs and she collapsed because she became very angry in that moment. i think felt it had been unnecessary to call her to the stand. that had been a difficult decision. we all had a very hard time after that day but ultimately she said it had been important for her to do it and unanimously, the witnesses felt that they had made a difference and they really did. they faced lot they changed lives by telling the truth >> charlotte, it was a pleasure to see you in the courtroom and to see you as an attorney. i'm curious about the writer part of youridentity as well . it's your first book. and very well done. and you employed a very

ambitious i think structure going back and forth in time. it might have been easier especially if you're somebody who's used to building a legal brief to get things in order or do things chronologically. i love that because i thought it built a lot of tension. can you talk about the writing process and how you made that ? >> i think that complement should be accepted not by me but by jessica deyoung who is in the audience tonight and who is an extraordinary editor who worked with me on the final draft of the book actually said i final . manymany drafts of the book . she kept telling me you have to test your reader and i had a tendency that my colleagues nancy brown had pulled out before which was to do this exhaustive layout. and it was unnecessary and

there are those who take my motions and what i was writing them down to the essential we had an incredibly rigorous editing process and jessica did the same asking my editor with the book and she really felt and i have to agree that it was a way to allow the reader to experience the parallel between building the case and my life and also as a prosecutor, you don't get the pieces in order and i also wanted to think about that moment in time when my life intersected with dr. li which is the moment of arraignment in 2011 and i was thinking about what had been happening i didn't know about four. what was i experiencing and how that intersection changed everything. so it was sort of a xo structure if you will but jessica really taught me how to let go of that sort of

perfectionism and focus on the moment that expressed the story. >> and i think you told me that the red pen and treatment that you got in on your brief also help you to develop a sense for how good it is to be edited. it's painful but how makes the final product so much better. >> a team makes everything better. i always thought i had to go it alone and a team makes everything better. it can be a challenge to learn how to work with a team, how to delegate but especially when you're fortunate enough as i am to work as was to work not only with people who have a tremendous amount of experience but with people who had incredibly powerful brains and instincts like stephanie since mario and others. john courtney, and under the

leadership of bridget brennan who just has a lot of guts in confronting the opioid epidemic and going after the doctors . on my own i wouldn't have done any of this and i think none of the people in the book and in life would have been able to reach the point of accountability for dr. li if we hadn't worked together. >> how and when did you know it was a book in addition to being a case. you needed to not only prosecute the individual but that you needed to create a record and a document and a drama about it? >> i felt that the trial and then the book. building a case for trial is very similar in some ways to writing a book . when the trial was over, i remembered joe hall and i stepping outside into the

street and looking at each other and thinking now ? we can't believe it's over. and the fact is that it had been such an intense experience for everyone involved that other than doing what we have to do to prepare the case for appeals and whatever will come next, we didn't really talk about it and i didn't want to write about it. i wrote actually a very bad novel before i wrote the book . and then realized that my husband who had been telling me for years that this is a story that i should write, maybe had a point. so i have to credit him for that. >> and what are you working on now western mark. >> i'm working on a couple of things. i've been following the purview bankruptcies and working with bankrupt pain which is in wonderful advocacy group founded by the

photographer nan goldin was fighting for accountability at the national level with members of the family in producing so i actually started drawing cartoons related to the bankruptcy as a way of communicating what's going on in a more user-friendly manner and so i think i might try to do something there. maybe a graphic novel of sorts in partnership with someexperts . and you know, there are a couple of other books that i'm thinking of. the beauty of being a writer rather than an attorney for me is that i feel more freedom to draw on every other part of my life and i think there's attorneys who like bridget, peter who are able to bring that into their work but for me, writing about the law, translating the jargon, translating the procedure is much more my

calling, eventhough i really miss the investigation . >> is there anything left undone or left unsaid if you could put an epilogue in the book or if there was more that youwould want readers to know ,what would it be today ? >> well, i would like to give a voice, a direct voice to the families who are involved . and for them, if they feel inclined to tell the story from their perspective and i think also, one thing that really bothers me is we have lost nearly 500 thousand lives in the opioid epidemic. it is unspeakable and there hasn't been any warning, any grieving on a collective level. we hear stories individually and one of the things that really was both difficult and

incredible working on the book was that everybody i ran into , i always they say i also know someone and that's traumatizing for us as a country and we have to deal with it and talk about it so i would like to hear everybody's stories and i would like to hear stories of people who are fighting back and i would like to draw attention to the legal proceedings where we have a chance of getting accountability. such as the purdue bankruptcy, such as oakley criminal prosecution. >> you and your colleagues not a win in an academic or role that we don't often see. we don't often see accountability. do you think that the epidemic is on the wane and mark. >> know. unfortunately this, the cdc recently released this is

showing that in the 12 months between a 2019 and may 2020, 81,000 people lost their lives to overdoses which far outpaced the 12 preceding months. i think the combination of the covid epidemic and pandemic has led to a horrific isolation, that's led to the reduction of harm reduction efforts. i mean, many of us programs were already in danger because of the stigma and so they were a not in my backyard lobbying effort but if we need anything right now, we need to just help keep people to stay alive, give them a chance to stay alive until they are able to take a different path if that is what they want to do . and you know, i never imagined that on the day that

this book would come out or that this week that it would have gotten worse but it has. >> if it means there are other dr. li's out there and otherpeople read this book , it shows that the prosecution , the successful prosecution is possible so thank you. we'd like to open it up now to our audience to see what questions you have for charlotte. >> there are a lot of excellent questions here. firstly, how do you feel about modern criminal justice reform and how they may impactcriminal charges against medical professionals ? >> there were a couple of changes made to the law in new york state during and after the dr. li case . during the case was implemented which created a

system where doctors had to check whether their patients were receiving controlled substances from other physicians and so that kind of forced visibility, fourth transparency and accountability i think is very important. the other changes that occurred were at some of the criminal statutes were changed to include pharmacists and physicians in the definition of certain crimes and i think that's essential because there can't be a bias into the law that just because you went to medical school you can't sell a prescription or you can't beguilty of selling a prescription . now, i think that one of the biggest or there has been many doctor prosecutions and especially by the office of the special narcotics prosecutor which really focus on exposing the greed of dirty doctors and holding them accountable we need to

do that as a national level. we need to do that with the corporate executives launched the opioid epidemic, those who have profited. executives of distribution companies and other sort of systemic actorswho profited from the epidemic . they can't be above the law and some of the laws on the books like reckless manslaughtermay well apply and they should be pursued . >> okay. out of dark curiosity do you have an idea of how dr. li treated his non-cash cow patients? did he practice decent medicine? did he know about addition potential, with some who came to the queens clinic and he cashedin on the vulnerable ? >> whoever submitted question is thinking like a prosecutor and that is not just a question of curiosity is a crucial question because we

were trying to understand his state of mind, is intent.we were trying to see what in fact his clinic was about and what we learned was even though there were details of highly addictive substances before a certain date by which was somewhere around 2007 or so, be patient he was seen before then were vehicles for insurance fraud. he was seeing a population of mostly elderly patients with chronic pain conditions stemming from old age and illnesses and the one double bill or he would otherwise falsify insurance records and maximize the amount of money he was making so we were able to present evidence to the grand jury and i think that was a crucial part of the case because the jury saw this at the very beginning that there was a three driving this side hustle that

he hadon the weekend . >> okay. we have a question from john. this would make a great movie. is that something youwould be interested in pursuing at some point in the future ? >> it is gone i think it is,, was one of the road there are papers on the case is exhausted testimony . i love courts that are diverse, thank you. i don't know. i think it can be a blessing and a curse to have a cinematic life so right now, my purpose is to draw attention to the need for accountability and that's all i can. >> this one's a little bit

morepersonal. inspires you, charlotte, do you have a heroyou look up to ? >> i would do , i would say margaret, ben kingsley markovich, kristin hey, jessica do laws, joe hall. stephanie ansari oh, bridget rented. my heroes are the people who i have seen working so hard, putting one foot in front of the other truly impossible. and i think of them every day. i also, there's another young woman whose name is andrea howard in the book who told dr. li that her father had killed himself in front of her and that she wanted to kill herself and she was in such suffering. he pushed her to the ring and she agreed to testify and when she testified she held a stuffed animal in her arms and after the trial she gave it to me. so she's my hero. >> i'm not going to tear up.

>> i am. she is one of the greatest women i've ever met so she's my hero. >> that's incrediblybrave. we have a question from jordan. thank you charlotte and patricia for doing this . charlotte, you touched on this briefly but i wonder if you could say more about your reactionto dr. li's death . did you show a little at all in coming to that conclusion about the man who has improved at trial took lives? >> i didn't because he was present to a term in prison, he was not sentenced to death. i am strongly opposed to the death penalty. i believe those who are in the custody of the government deserve to be protected. and that he should have been able to serve his term and return to his family. and i having seen the chain

of people who lost loved ones in an untimely manner and havingseen the devastation , there wasn't a moment of hesitation. >> i've got a question from callie, you mentioned our reduction, could youspeak about the policy implications of what you learned from the trial ? >> i have undergone a real seachange with respect to opioid use disorder which i think many of us in the law enforcement community because the laws are written in a certain way tend to see the criminality in that rather than the medical disease. and i believe that if we recognize as the medical community has a legitimate medical community has that addiction is an illness, then

we have to reduce the suffering area so i believe not just that harm reduction should exist but that is an urgent need right now. from what i've learned recently, is much more painful to inject with a needle that has been used and it is not to addiction is already, can already be a state of suffering. why wouldn't we help, why wouldn't we help keep people alive and there's also a family from the case who lost their brother. who was a patient of dr. li and subsequently they lost their son and their son died alone. he was young. there was no place in the substance that he was using. harm reduction can allow for safe injection which i know are very controversial again, nobody wants people to die alone and unnecessarily and i think we need to set aside some of our thinking on that

for those of us who maybe struggled to accept it and just save lives. >> what if any role did the jurors personality play inthe trial ? >> he kept us on a very tight rope . it was very hard for him i think to as it was for everyone to keep track of all the witnesses, all the exhibits really we had 72 witnesses and the trial went over four months and it wasn't just thevictims and witnesses would have had so much to lose if the case and turned into a mistrial but the judge as well. he really worked very hard and i think that must have

been an incredibly stressful experience . i appreciate the difficulty of what he had to do. i didn't think it was ironic that sometimes he would remark onour facial expressions as i was working so hard on my poker face . but what can you do? >> and i think we have time for one last question . what do you think of the realistic outcomes and perhaps separately a proper on the lawsuits? >> all of the lawsuits have been essentially frozen now because of the bankruptcy proceeding . i think that the members of the family should not be granted a release from civil immunity as a result of the bankruptcy. they should be criminally prosecuted and i think the people who suffered should be able to recover. they can't recover their lives in the time that they had lost but maybe they can

have some financial compensation and i fear that that is not the direction the bankruptcy is going right now . >> okay. i think that's all the time we have for tonight area thank you. both of you for joining us tonight and for talking about these very heavy, very important topics that are really a part of our lives on a near daily basis . accu july wonderful audience for joining us tonight. is there anything either of you would like to save your audience before you sign off for the night ? >> just thank you for being here and i know that everyone of you is trying to make a difference and it's working so keep doing it , thank you and thank you sophia for hosting . >> you are watching tv on c-span2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. tv on c-span2, created by america's cable television companies today brought to you by these television

companies to provide tv viewers as apublic service . >> here's a look at some of the books published and in how to avoid a climate disaster microsoft cofounder bill gates offers his thoughts on climate change and lays out possible solutions. there review of books editor charles kessler examines the debate between liberal and conservative interpretations of the constitution in prices of the two constitutions and in the sauce former president heather mcgee examined the cost of racismall americans . also published this week in wide innocently guilty and the guilty go free to generate of the us district court for the southern district of new york reflects on the us legal system and offers is the on how to performance. best-selling author and harvard professor henry louis junior provides a history of religion and african-american

communities in the black church and in calhoun, american heritage baylor university history professor robert heller recalled the wife of vice president secretary of war and confederate advocate john calhoun . find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on both tv on c-span2. >> good morning, name my name is mei fong and i'm director of public integrity and i'm pleased to be our monitor at moderator at the commonwealth club which is talking about the myth of chinese capitalism and i'm pleased to be with my friend chip roberts who is the fellow at the university of montana, a brilliant journalist and writer and author of the new book which is called "the myth ofchinese capitalism: the worker, the factory, and the future of the world" . now, this is