so thank you, i look forward to your next work. i'm going to tell my dear friends, michael tubbs and i trading him in. [laughter] thank you. i don't think is going to accept it but we can try. [laughter] thank you and congratulations. >> thank you, thank you, thank you. >> you're watching book tv on c-span2. every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. book tv on cspan2, created by america's cable television company. today brought to by these television companies who provide book tv to viewers as a public service. >> i am delighted to be welcoming kenneth rosen back to talk about his latest

release trouble. last year in the virtual space for bulletproof vest, which was his first published novel art not a novel excuse me, my bad. his first book and we're really delighted to have them back. kenneth is a senior editor and correspondent at newsweek, based in italy preset contribute writer wired and journalist and resident at the washington institute. his other two nonfiction books and executive in residence of the geneva center for security policy. and a 2021 alicia patterson fell appeared previously spent six years on staff of the "new york times". were going to speak for ten or 15 minutes it will open up your question submitted to the chat and the q&a. and now we will ask kenneth to come back up on screen and we're going to dive in. >> hi anastasia. >> hello how are you? >> guest: i'm really well. hearing my bio annoying with the subject of the book is, it really shows like how long it

takes to publish a book. [laughter] just like that change of topic of subject matter. >> host: yes, absolutely. we've got quite a crop of people here. tell us where you are zooming from. >> i'm coming to you live from northern italy the beautiful italian outs where i live part time, part of the earth my family. i'm a new england author and currently giving all that were experiencing these days. >> for the gouge of the subject of the book, how long have you been back in italy? has it been post covid there? >> you and i spoke last week just come from italy to massachusetts right as the country really went into

lockdown. as soon massachusetts put us and we flew back to italy in june. we've been there since june and not going anywhere, if not been anywhere since. >> i can imagine, i can imagine. your new book came out and the h today so it's been about two weeks. for those who are watching who are not aware of the subject of the book or a full deep dive could you do a brief elevator pitch explanation of troubled? >> sure, troubled is a tapestry of individuals who went through tough love bit modification or growth schools across the united states. and it follows the journey of those for client or former residents of these programs through adulthood and what became of them later. the industry is largely unregulated's

multibillion-dollar industry and caters to a wide range of clients. young people all young teenagers were sent away often times in the middle of the night one of three for programs or in the book wilderness therapy residential programs and therapeutic programs therapeutic boarding school programs. and, that was a passion project as much as a peace of it endeavoring just because i'm one of those teens who sent away the programs to a rebellious streak in my early life. and now, the book tries to give voice to those who have survived those programs. who suffered abuse within those programs. and have grown ever since those programs in hopes of one day shutting them down. >> absolute out a perfect seminar come i cannot talk tonight. >> you doing six different

things are numbered everyone notices you are killing it, doing it. spent time chatting, monitoring all about. so i tell you i finish the book this afternoon. i told ken this as we were getting ready for the event, it just ripped my heart out and stomped on it. it was so compelling and so readable. easy to dive into when you're turning the page want to read was going to happen next. you are hurting, you are aching and it's almost visceral reaction to read these stories. i sort of wonder with the experiences like through you having to research and write this. particularly because you also experienced it in some capacity. >> frank was really cathartic for me per night interviewed more than 100 former clients, staff of these programs. counselors and so forth, child rights activists in order to

paint a full picture of the industry. also to reckon with my understanding of these programs. for many years they did not leave me broken, effective at all. i was sort of carrying on my natural path was destructive into my early 20s and big 20s. when i had a chance to go back and interview everyone i did for the book, a lot of former friends of mine who were at these programs are friends i knew there and then branching off and interviewing people from other programs, i've felt so much pain for them. : : participating in he book and letting me delve interest their lives and share their stories

from their tim so it cass would that continuing to see -- cathartic to hear someone else's experience and realize i've come through something traumatic but difficult in the end because i had been publishing stuff like this for a while, been a journalist for a decade, all over the world and covered many different types of stories, but it wasn't until the book published i start stowed get a flood of just responses from parents would were struggling with kids who were out of control, kids who survived the programs and wanted to share their story because they never felt they could or have been told the shouldn't share their story. my writing has been my life, bleeding on the page as hemingway said but the aftermath of the book has been difficult,

reckoning with different voices and hearing both side of the arguments before the programs, against the programs, people it worked for on -- wore. it's been enlightening. and the book you mention a mom that tweet at you. right? at the beginning of the book. and sort of wants you to -- she is almost reaching out to you because she feels guilt. right? and has that continued to happen since the book has published in are people ed fying --ed fying you like a success story even though you're saying this is traumatic and all of these negative things? how has that been? what is that like. >> there are lot of different camps here. had broken into it two camps previously ands mistaken there

was the camp of people who didn't know but the programs at owl or -- people who thought the programs existed back the day but no longer and them pea who new someone who -- mary or betty or john disappeared from high school and never came back and had that relationship to the program. so there were those i thought existed and then when i published -- i got more and more of those tweets. julia in the book, more tweets saying what program shy send my kids to? >> yeah. and i think you're frozen. >> sorry. >> you're good. >> the point of the book was to underscore the detriment these programs cause, and then over the last week it's gotten really rough with how many parents are writing me to say, my experience and that of the hundreds of thousands of others who are writing and making note of their

time and abuse and this programs it's wrong. that because they had -- [loss of audio] -- and came out better, that the programs work and we should look to them as positive alternatives to treatment for children and we know time and again that congregate care does nose work and leads to more trauma than harm. so i get messages from parents now just sort of telling me i need to offer sort of alternative treatments, and i've been thinking about that as far as what could be alterative to these programs and the problems there isn't, and i've always empathize with the parents who had no other choice, had a difficult situation that they needed to reconcile, and chose what they believed was the best path. wasn't the best path but they made a choice and now they ask for alternatives alternatives at

isn't. the local community based health-care, the outpatient programs that should be focus on community and family building are there but are limited in funding. health-care funding everywhere is a crying shame. and so i get those and get the messages from parents who are grateful that they were considered sending their child away and hospital known this part of the industry, hospital seen the complaints, and large part because the lobby for these is massive and so i'm seeing all sides and i think -- i'm learning more about the industry now than when i was working and researching and writing the book to be frank. >> absolutely. and i feel like we could really go off on a tan general on this but one -- i took this class in college, very called crime and punishment but it was american studies class on the history of

mass incarceration in this country, and as i read this bike it was all i could think about was there is so little difference between this and -- in my mind, and the structure, the philosophies behind the programs that you outline in the book and jail. absolutely it's also different but there's a lot of similarities similarities there. has anyone else brought that up with you and discussed that and what is your -- >> they're very pun tithe programs, went to -- punitive programs and break you down but don't build you back up. certainly they help institutionalize children. i felt way more comfortable when i went to juvy after these programs because i had sort of been through the process already, i had known about the catcher stance and to make sure i'm not carrying any illegal

item or substance with me and i was bet are in juvy frankly than the other programs empathy parallels are coming to me now because social workers are not reach ought. a lot of the -- i had the wilderness therapy is not reaching out. residential centers are not saying anything but it's mostly the criminology professors and joint justice commissions reaching out and saying we want to learn more about this. we have heard a lot and want to look into them more and i apologize to to thissenners, i fell like -- listeners and i'm rehashing the last two weeks into much more that is going on and this book is a great way, troubled is a great way into understanding this industry and getting just like an on the ground glimpse before even unraveling this whole other criminal justice issue. with the treat our kids this way, imagine how we're treating

people we care much less about. >> truly. and the lobby, the industrial -- the financial side of it is crazy. so, just sort of talking pout the first two weeks after a book, for our audience here and we already have a question which is amazing and we'll get to those in ten minutes so keep submitting questions. that's awesome. chat in, all of that. but i think the first two weeks of pub for a book, your book comes out on a tuesday and you do a lot of -- at prepublication to get people excited and then you do a lot of press, a lot of interviews like this one, during that time so you're already like on the trail, and then you have had quite the response. you want to talk about little bit more but how to you have been just going through the publication? you were in the "new york times." did i see you spoke with --

>> we were on that 1a on monday, i think. and a lot -- the naysayers, the people who support the programs are saying my experience was many years ago and the industry has changed and frankly it hasn't. we see just last year a young man was restrained in one of this programs, a seven-year-old and was killed. -- a 16-year-old and was killed. these programs are continually being investigate. there's lawsuits ongoing, it's a dirty, terrible, destructive industry, and the publishing has been -- we talk with we haas book and i refer to that as a pamphlet. >> i love it. it's like chat book. it's beautiful. >> so this is a whole different thing. a machine behind it, and the review okay. out in "new york times" online on monday, and then tuesday the book came out, and that

coincided with an essay in the times and everyone looked at the essay and said, oh, the book is about him, and he was there many years ago so it's not -- we don't know why he is writing but the book is far and beyond me. it's about a lot of other children. it's about hundreds of thousands of survivors who are now trying to make their voices heard, and be taken seriously because that's programs are continuing to cause damage across the spectrum and most states across the country or even the other night, someone tweeted -- sent me a direct messan 0 within saying i heard you on npr. i'm in the car now, sick to the stomach, my son is getting pick up in the middle of the night and taken to a program and i don't know if i made the right decision and for this lepers that's an inthrow ducks to this programs is a kidnapping, parents high two transporters who come in the middle of the night and take kids away to these programs, and getting that

message from that man was devastating. we were talking earlier you publish a book, does it make a difference? i don't know. if dope know if this is being heard by everyone and i'm trying to get as much attention as you noted out as i can, just to people are at least aware of the industry because seems like many people were until two weeks ago. >> absolutely. i think you hear a little blip about it whether it's the experience of a classmate or perhaps as a parent, another parent talking about making this decision, and then of course, at the end of last year, there was the mention of the canyon school and paris hilton's documentary and that looked like a snap for people, and then now your become come us out and it's such a deep dive and you talk how you interviewed over 100 patients. how did you land upon your final

four? >> so i went into this think can i had -- thinking i had been unscathed but i had seen a lot of obituary inside our survivor facebook groups where most of us have congregated and i wonder evidence i was wrong, people suffering death by despair, suicide. >> i didn't understand it because that didn't jive with what i fit i experienced socks start offed enter interviewing every witch no alleged north, question 00 than what happened to you. what became of you after the programs? and i often times am reporting just wait until i hear a similar story over and over again and then i feel like i'm get thing genuine gist. i don't usually have a graph or angle as people say, going into a story. i just want to hear and then formulate based off of what i'm

hearing and what i'm gathering as far as evidence. so i reached -- i think around the 60th interview i started hearing the same story, came from a difficult family life mitch parents were going through a nasty divorce or i was abused as a child, sexually, physically, we didn't have money or i was live being air caregiver and one night i was the problem and they shipped me off and that was the narrative i heard over and over again, it was a problem at home and some point along the way the child was not the victim anymore, they were the issue, and they got sent away. so, eventually i started feeling confident that was the actual story, this was not just an isolated incident with one or two people. this was something more systemic and then the 40-50 other interviews i conducted solidified that and i found evidence and tried to bolster the claims that these young people were making in order to more fully paint an industry as it should be.

>> yeah. absolutely. what do you think the most surprising thing you found in your research was? something in the become, maybe not? >> i think i -- there's a lot in there but i think that knowing the history of these programs they've been around for so long they've been -- there have been problem since the '70s, and yet with still don't have any robust federal response to regulating them. states issue sort of weak-ended legislation that might curb transporting and still use the language transporting when we all know it's kidnapping, kidnapping for hire. not much has changed and it's so disheartening to see the industry gear up now to combat the rise of breaking code silence your mentioned paris hilton's documentary to come combat survivors oar other movements taking place online

and different spheres on social media, just because they are profiting so greatly and don't care much about the well-being of the children but the well-being of their bank account. >> do you have the figure off the top of your head, what is an average stay at one of these places cost? i'm curious. >> ranging from 300 -- 300 to 800 a day which isn't to say only the privileged or well off, afford. the often time some characters in the book, second mortgage, third mortgage their house, a lot of states these days now are taking foster children and putting them in these programs, taxpayer funded or some are taken taking medicaid but that not clear how that its working. mostly privately funded and where people can find the money is a lot of different places, and ends up being somewhat akin to the cost of an ivy league

education at the end of the day, only to have your child returned no better than when they were sent away and more often times worse. >> absolutely. so, let talk a little bit writerly. this is your second book and you're also a reporter. this i think could have been a very dry, very data driven piece of work. but it's not. it's heart racing, it's heart rending, it's incredibly immersive. i read most of it in an afternoon just because i couldn't put it down i pan donned my other work. so -- abandoned my other work toso kudos to you. it is a slight live different experience to report and write in that way and then spend a greater duration of time to create a book? tell me about your experience with that.

>> thanks for all the kind words. of course i read through the book now and i'm preparing for a talk or something and i'm like, oh, god, i got to cross that out if wish i would have written it that way. >> it's like rewatching these. you can't go back because you're like my eye was twitching at minute 33. >> right. i also avoid all the comments. don't want to good swimming through those. this is a type of writing i've always wanted to do. if you see my magazine work, it's sort of very narrative. it's focused on both my interiority and the exteriority surrounding me, and i sat down and wrote this book in largely 11 weeks. at mcdowell with the'sy d residency and set down and wrote every day and felt good because it felt like i understood the story better than all these other things write about. i have to research about syria

and iraq and have to make myself more understanding of the different militias and the different situations and the history and the political events and with is was able to be really emotionally honest, like, for the first time in anything i've written, just entirely emotionally honest and really able to explore thing its don't necessarily get to explore on the page. so for me is what a whirlwind and it was a lot of fun, just to write because it came so easily. not everything i write comes so easily. >> absolutely. so, there's some really good questions accidents here i'd thereof get to but before i do in case we don't get to it, it's quite clear that you want people to take away the fact that these programs and institutions are -- should not exist, you want people to take that from the book. anything else that is really -- your he were hoping to get

across to people that the book impressed on them? >> it was tough to make this not a zero sum game. people walk we were with nothing which i feel i failed at. it ends on a sour note by and large, and i guess i want the parents 0 who read this to understand that if there is an issue in the family it's the family, it's not a child. it is often times the environment, and we need to take a serious hard look at what are causing these fissures and the uproariousous behavior and address the underlying concern, not just we need to wholesale reeducate this child and make sure they're on a better path, and then for the survivors and friends of people who have been through this, just to listen, and to tell your own story. i haven't been making that clear enough in some of my previous appearances, that i just think

that survivors should tell their story. shouldn't be afraid of sharing their storied. that should feel empowered by paris hilton and empowered to know other people want to hear the stories and are willing to listen. not everyone wants to listen. and not everybody has nice things to say. that's all right because that's how our conversation starts, and i think this is just the first in the long line of books probably going to come out on this subject matter and i can't wait to read those. >> absolutely. talking and writing and listening is an act of catharsis. so i want to -- i'm going to pivot back and forth between my questions and those who are writing in. but mary in the chat has written and she says she has a son of a friend who is 14 and just spent four months in this place, and she is wondering if you have any thought on helpful way to engage

with him about his experience beyond him just being like it was okay, or what was your experience? >> um, i'm not a -- i'm a journalist, not a counselor or psychologist or therapist so all my advice is anecdotal and from my own heart. not from any sort of clinical background to be sure. i think that what i said earlier, requires an emotional honesty to have a child and speak to them honestly and listen to them honestly and not try to be a parent. sometimes being a parent is tough, and you believe you have to follow a set of rules that are invisible to the rest of us. so when you ask about his experience, and he says it was okay, it sounds like just wants to you to give the answer you expect him to hear so maybe you can use troubled or any number of other mediums, paris hilton's documentary or the twitter

#breaking the silence, and did he he know people who went through issues like this and to hear him out. to hear whether or not this is something he relates to or perhaps experienced himself. i think showing curiosity is one way into a child's mind and to a teenager's mind because invariably they're closed off to the world. he we remember how difficult to be a teen and scarity was to be so interior all the time, so trying to break that down with relating but not preaching. maybe the best way. i think. >> yeah. absolutely. think that was -- made a lot of sense to me and it's 0 so true. you grow up and you forget. you can empirically say yes being a teenager is hard but sometimes you forget how truly how hard it is to go through all this immense change in such

condensed period of your life and everything that comes with that. >> for me, i don't if it was for a lot of other people but just such an immediacy to everything. everything was so dire, like, everything was so this weekend, the next class. was never thinking that far in advance. i had a vague used what life might be later but every is so important and we forget that passion as we get older. we get jaded and soften and time flattens a man is a quote i steal from a movie. and that is just easy to forget, that couldic, effervescent prepares of life and worry, which i guess sends these kids away. >> absolutely. i think you are in the same sort of age bracket and i think about technology is absolute plater of our lives -- a part of our lives and cellphones and all that. you couldn't pay me to be a teenager today, no at all.

talk about a immediacy and the stress and the pressure and i just can't imagine how everything that is going on and is the hallmark of teenagerhood regardless, then.com wounded by the fact your entire life is online, i just -- i wonder how sort of that plays into the book and kids acting out now and all of that. must be -- must be correlated at some point. >> when we used to have bullying used to take place at school and then you have a safe haven at home and now it's everywhere. you can be picked on any hour, any channel, any social media and there is a great rise in depression and anxiety among our nation's youth. there's no question about it. but i think one of the biggest falsies just take away the

cellphone and they'll be better but so much else going on we can never quite understand. we living threw pandemic but so are they. they have to stake school online and stuck in front of zoom and missing out on the socialized that is important, too. the high school years and social development. just -- we are 20 years, ten years past that, and we could never relate to what they're going through now and that's another fault of the parents, thinking i was there when you were a kid. understand. but you don't. and understanding and listening to that really opens up a child to more honesty and, look, i'm your dad, i'm your mom, i have two kids now. i don't know. don't know. it was tough for me. we'll figure it out together. when you come home i'll make yo you a pizza or whatever you favorite but a lot of the family and adversarial component to in a household and that drove a lot of kids out of the house and

understandably into a lot of issues. >> your book is fascinating and i think it's going to become part of courts like that kind of punishment, those curriculas and is it from these different pieces of society that sort of smash together to create this environment, where the programs exist and kids being sent there mary who asks the question, she wanted to thank you for your honesty and she applaud yourself survivorship and desire to help others and that you writing the book and your responses so far are so commendable and before i get to the erequest in the were disif you noticed that covid fueled an upcontinuing in admission or too early for that data. >> i don't know. i know that a woman reached tout

me just before the book published and asked if i could recommend a wilderness program but a her son is not spending enough time in front of the computer and i asked her, what were hirsh issuesband hand and she said he was playing too many video games. i said now that he's in front though the computer doing too much zoom that's a problem but before it was okay and -- so our -- but we don't know yesterday. me point of that didactic parable is people are still sending their kid away disspeed the coronavirus and it's no clear. enrollment has gone up but talk of people looking to shut down the programs has definitely skyrocketed given the death last year and paris hilton's documentary and now survivors coming forward. >> and now your book. and i'm going to drop a link in the chat for those who are watching, in case you want to check out the book. so, robert asks do you sense the

educational consultants are in bed with the programs? like a conflict of interest. is this he see sense after we set our sound to an rtc. >> i spoke with 35 education consultants for the book and seemed to me they all said -- all said, no, we don't get kickbacks well-don't take money from the industry. but they do wine and dine them. fly them around to visit these programs and have stays in these hotelled that are near the programs and other sort of beneficial kickbacks that may not be financial but certainly can kickbacks nevertheless. i know when i spoke with any education consultant he had said that he didn't intend to send me to such a bad program but he didn't know i was a former client of his and when he revealed that he said he's not sure he recalled correctly. they also seem to -- this is --

you can probably see this they keep it within the same health corporation so three different education groups program and a likelihood the child will be sent to a program that is within the same health-care umbrella or same operating scheme as the first program. i pray that kids and children don't go through more than two programs and i pray they don't have to any but anymore two seems like a money making scheme. i want to three programs all under the same bane capitol con groom con gram rat and that's the issue with educational consultants they're insistence on the programs, this weird immediate area saying and encouraging parents to send them to these programs and misdiagnosing them and not having a full handle on what is afflicting the child and what might help them best. the congregate care takes all sort odd ailments and locked

into it one big group therapy session and says figure it out weapon know that just doesn't work, and i think education consul tans are prime examples of conduits to the programs that are maybe more detrimental than we have previously given thought to. by and large because they are the first line of defense. the ones who introduce programs to the parent. so thank you, robert i appreciate it. >> absolutely. robert has followup question. so, his son was in utah, and hit son's opinion is that the other kids were mostly misbehaving kids of rich, often conservative parents who could afford to send them away. he the fit it was sort of faith based programming, and he is alive to tell now more than two years later and we fear he may have been dead having not followed the guide guidance --

clinician. what advice to you have to rectify this paradox. i won't be able to talk again. this is my night. >> it's early for you. it's late over here. all my mistakes are bows of the hour. robert i don't know. if it's -- sounds like your son ended up fine, and the point of the book is to give voice to all of the hundreds of thousands of kids who weren't fine. it's not to say that the program didn't work for some people. sometimes it could have been a beneficial experience. we see more times than not that it's a bad experience. it thrills me to know he is doing well. know for the a lot of my problems didn't rear their head until much later in life, mid-college, late college, my first job, uncomfortable situations i found myself in and

not really knowing myself, not knowing my place and i never -- like i said i never put it on the programs and i'm not saying that's the same experience for your son but maybe what they feel is just themselves now and this who is they've become and they're carrying on during carrying a label of troubled. some of the kid were wealthy, well well off, doing things far and beyond whale considered normal for anyone. most child or adult. and came from privilegedded battlegrounds but we do see a lot of underprivileged children in these programs the faith-based programs in montana have been called or for pushing religious beliefs on children. it's really not about the kids who turn out well because it's more about the people who have now come out and said i've been hurt and for years people said you haven't been because look at

all the candidate turned out well. and that's what i'm trying to draw attention to just to say that there's a anywhere tv of how great the programs are. look at all the flashy brochures and the money being poured into it, but this is just the counternarrative. this is saying it's not all roses and perfume and whatever the saying is. sorry, it's late. it hurts a lot of people but i'd be interested to hear your story, robert. i you want to e-mail me, i'd be happy to try to give you whatever i can off the chat here. >> absolutely. we have a quiet bunch tonight. if you have nor questions submit them in the q & a or the chat. and let's shift and lighten the mood and tell me what have you been reading during covid part two because we last spoke in covid part one, very early on to in the game it and was scary and

it's still scary but a it was very unknown and now here we are, we've been in a pandemic for almost a year, and it feels just like normal life at this point so, yeah, what's on your bookshelf? >> i've been reading bride's head revisited by evelyn waugh? is that how you pronouns. >> i'm really bad with pronunciation. >> ed a readers we think that's how you pronounce a word and then later you hear it and it's like, uh-oh. >> see if i can preface this the right way. the incredible author of tran send accident kingdom and home-going, and her last name in my original reading of it was -- it is yajesse but before i heard

her name pronounced way has like -- not is it jesse, and that was just like a total -- it's been a total -- hear from the book it's like, ya jesse. >> the age of podcasts has helped because i hear things now, oh, okay. i could sound smarter than i did and i'm re-readening scott spend we are's endless love, youth in turmoil, too. it's an incredible novel about youth in love and turmoil and first love and all this great stuff, but i'm trying to just not read right now. everything is so stressful that i'm binging a lot. net foreclosure hard core, my wife said shy check out agents of shield and i lost hundreds of hours to sitting in front of my

computer doing nothing. >> i completely get it. i read a lot for my job, of course, and -- but sometimes it's nice to sort of take that break because tv is something you really can turn your brain off with. when you're reading a book that's not a passive activity, and i completely agree with you. we have all about in that place -- been in that place. you have not watched bridgerton what rock are you under. >> the last book i read owl the way through but it -- i admit once a year is graham green's -- -- the end of the affair, and, man, just in a few hours, i just was taken, and rare do i find the book like that. it's so often i have to really slog through a lot of hundred page abandonments before i get one, but usually i stick to the

classics. so bride'shead revisited is one of those. >> absolutely. i am a huge salinger fan, and there is this beautiful edition, i have it right here, i was scrolling through something and i saw this incredible edition of nine stories and it's like, it's pressed in and it has the hewn illinoiss and i was like i don't need to buy this. have this but i bought it anyway and i've been rereading them and sometimes it's nice slip interest something you know and have read and it's comfortable and all of that. >> i went to the same military academy, jd salinger. >> valley forge. >> yep. >> and an odd -- >> year book photos. >> no way. that's really funny. i have my own salinger story. not to get too personal. a classmate in high school -- i

don't know if it's true or not but he one day were in references and just read love and squalor, and he was like, my family, my great aunt, was franie glass. my family was the glass family and i was like -- but it's entirely possible considering new england, you never know. so, i always like to tell people that story when i talk about salinger. and so i had been a question from piper but way don't ask something related to literature. did you get to read when you were in these programs? was that something or not allowed any sort of outside material? you talk about the guide books. >> right. i remember -- wilderness program you don't have anything. when you get other these residential programmed you've hey a point or level system you can get access to books, which

is crazy, so eventually we were old enough or far enough along in the program and we got i think it was the six harry harry potter book and we would have access to a million little pieces or another book about the industry, glowing back beaut the industry, a lot of therapy books. when i got juvy i spent several months in juvy after these programs and i was reading dean koontz and a great time talked about wanting to read. get locked up and then you have all that reading time. but it was sort of really -- they made sure you weren't having access to your previous life. wanted -- a big paint baller and they wouldn't send me paint balling mes and so they vet everything and keep you away from who we once were in the

hopes of making you into something different. >> feels so -- the other comparison here is the conversion camps and everything that -- i was telling someone about the book today and they were like, oh, it's like the name of the other books, converse camps, escaping me, but she made that correlation and i thought about that after that. >> yeah. that's not covered in the book but it's something i've heard about recently. and i think it's going to be a big topic going entice discussion how to regulate these program order how to shut them down. >> absolutely. all right; so, piper submitted something in the chat here and she did say she wanted to edit a little bit so i'm going read it. i'm sorry piper if it's not what you hoped to say. piper is interested in your interview process and engagement with the clients you interviewed. and then also the outcome of the

clients lives and how one defines the outcome of their life in relation to the failure to thrive or succeed after going through this experience.she is also interested in what she perceived as the objective of the level for the clients. >> let me broach the first one. i'm reading it right now. >> thank you. >> the interview process was very nonchalant, very casual. [loss of audio] -- -- good to see you again or nice to meet you, the recorder is on and that's the last we talk about my being a journalist and just have a blow by blow what the experienced and where they were and who they were with and how they felt and it's organic. i try to just keep it as a conversation. always been my interview technique. dough constant prepared with questions. always just trying to learn and

hear people out. decent enough listening in any family life and at home, the least i can do is make my work, and i try to do my work. doesn't always come home. but that's how all the interviews came about. as far as success, study that come out on the programs which are industry funded and paid for by the programs or an industry body in that way track efficacy by three, six and 12 months and often times say how great the children ended up so speaking to robert's comment earlier, 12 months is fine but a lot of people ended up really bad after 12 monthed. so scared of being sent back to these programs and being found out for having lied about something or found out they're just making up who they and are tornado get by and -- in order to get by and please heir parents and don't act until later following the programs so

success to me when i was interviewing they had -- at first the that a job and family and schooling and education and they were doing well in life but a lot of people had that and i write in book people are living but not necessarily alive. they're struggling with very simple social interactions, they're sort of shuttled between jobs and losing jobs and picking up part-time work and this can be said for a lot of people who are just struggling in the day-to-day lives and seems they were struggling a little bet more than arch else. they were having trouble at home. they weren't really making ends meet. not only financially but emotionally. they weren't connecting with their spouses or had a lot of abusive relationships and couldn't quite figure out why assault making these bad decisions, why they kept ending up in programs. so that was for me what really signal the reason to go and interview everyone and figure

out my past and the past of these children to find out what became of them. unfortunately in do end up just sort of that terrible incarceration, love, long incarceration, others end up dead, through drug deals gone bad or suicide or other potential violence in the home or wind people that they associate with. so i hope that answers you were question. outcomes and live inside relationship to fail oar or if there or success -- that is being too optimistic, thriving, everyone should three. everybody has the pursuit of happy unless the done through we call united and it didn't seem to he me like they were -- despite all the best efforts to the programs and their parents, wealthy or not, they just didn't reach that potential and i knew them when they were still great and happy and sort of figuring out their lives when they were

scared in the programs but had a modicum of who they were before and then i met them against and seemed very desolate and more rose and as much as i wanted to help them i didn't think i could and i write that desperate feeling i felt, the parent must have felt-warranting to do something and not knowing what. and that still hurts me today because i'm afraid i'll never have the answer for some of those friend i'm still in touch with, for people i interviewed and i'm terrified itself will happen to my own children so the best i can offer is success comes' mean different shapes and forms as long as we support everybody and do our best not be combative and we can hope for the best only. >> absolutely. i think actually a great segway into another question from robert. thank you so much for asking so many questions, robert.

it's great to keep the conversation flowing, and thank you for questions in the chat or q & a. robert wants to hear you talk about the relationship between -- he phrase is it your parents or talk about it from the experience of those you interviewed, hough is the relationship with your parents now? do you talk about your collective experience? were you more angry with them or the system and did that change? >> my father is my best friend. he i talk to my mother every day. just got off the phone with her ship told me about she is wanting to send a fedex package for my kid knitted some mittens and stuff for them. so we're great. i didn't share anything with. the about the programs. they read the book. we never really talk about it. they knew i was wrestling with the kidnapping and trying to understand how that fit into the

later troubles. but i really undertook this as a journalist and they understood that as my own way of reckoning with it. i didn't necessarily feel all that bad about my time there. i wanted to learn more about other people's time there, and it wasn't bow my experience -- about my experience. use it as a tool in order to tell a bigger story and anything i could tell them didn't matter. i only ever sympathize its with their digits. i was out of hand. i was difficult. hated myself. i couldn't imagine how other people dealt with me. and they made a call based on some bad information through no fault of their own, misled, they were victims of predator marketing, and chose what they believed would save me. people have pointed to my success as a writer and a journalist has indicative of how so many people have turn out good from these program us but, man, wars it's hard struggle to get here. up until i was 25 i was getting into bad things, and coming here

now and trying to be a voice for a lot of other people is one thing, but having settled my family life and know they're proud of me is separate from the sort of endeavor of dealing with my past. it's something i took on consciously, i said i don't want to be angry at people. don't want to know there's a family out there who i don't talk to because i'm so bitter about something that happened ten years ago, and it took a lot of maturity for me to get there to say i want this -- my mom, bless her soul, pisses me off awe them tile and i piss her off and at the end of the day i love her to death and we have differences and 0 do the father and i but not going to break us apart because that's the only thing we have is our family and i lost that -- almost lost that once or twice before, and the struggles and the difficulties and the disagreements are much more

better than. >> but it sound -- i'm thinkings of avery in the book. your fortunate in the sense that you made the choice and your family made the choice to move past this experience in many ways and have a positive experience and that isn't always the case and avery's story was a sad one if you want to expand on that just a little bit in the time we have left. >> the part of the story you're pointing to -- >> i'm think about her relation show with her godmother so talk about relationships with parents because she and her godmother at she got out of the residential facility she was in they were -- seemed like they were getting on a better path and then fell apart. >> i just -- it's because i feel like so many parents -- this goes to parents i've talked to who write me now and say my son, daughter just got back from four months and she or he is great and i'm like, four months.

just got back. anywhere a totally different world right now. and the parents often times expect the children to just have changed. their magically fixed but i stress that the environment is what they're coming back. to they were ripped from this environment, maybe trouble environment, difficult sphere, slipped into -- whipped away-sent to a different part of the done issue told to change, spend a year, come back and the same environment there is, the same people, the same uninfluenzas are there, and they're meant to be different and it just doesn't work. i think the favorite story story end this well because we're seeing that the caregiver herself didn't do any work. the kid did a lot of, who while she was everybody at the programs but the caregiver didn't. the caregiver just sort of believed it to be a problem with the kid when really the evaluation happened on both side

offered the fence. both people needed to go through therapy and work together and figure out how to better that situation she returned to unfortunately for all the progress she made and i ick the shed made some well meaning advances in her therapy and life and the programs, came back and was just gone. overnight, because that support system wasn't there and meant to keep her moving forward. >> that was really sad. so we have one final question from david and we'll end on this. we touched bound the fact that -- upon the fact you wish you had a fix for this and a solution. so i don't you can fully answer david's question, but david asks, what would you now see as a better solution to the situation that resulted in your kidnapping to these programs or perhaps for someone else? this book isn't really focused on you. >> it's -- it's just that honesty piece. there's so much that happens in

a family whether a kid is pushed aside and made to believe they're less than or not a part of the family or some burden, and if i was heard easterly yes, if the children in this book were heard earlier, that they -- the parents noticed they were slipping away, they had noticed small little changes in their behavior, had asked earlier on how to help. what was going on and parents do but i think sometimes it's a too late. was there trouble at school? can i figure out with you? ick be your guide not your instructor through this. if those channels of communication were open at a much earlier age i think a lot of this could have been avoided and one instance the story of the book, the young woman is sexually abused by a family member and doesn't feel comfortable talking about it with her godmother in large part because they didn't have good real estateship and to think

what would have hand sad of had she been open up earlier. police involved, resolution much sooner, won't have have to carry it into our life up all these things. for me i suffered some minor trauma at the military academy and was trying to figure out my identity in this new public high school i was admitted to, and where my parents willing to back me on trying to discover myself? no they were fighting in a divorce. and i was just a burden who was not going to school. why want i going to school? i that didn't ask. they just nhu i had to go to school. i would have gotly told them i felt an outside social anxiety i couldn't excel. would good to close, miss a assignment and made in the not want to go back because i was behind. semple things you can deal with but i'm still struggle with but a i didn't have the opportunity to reckon with as a kid and it's the listening piece and sounds

simple, but that's the best i can hope for and that's what i'm hearing forgot a love lot of survivors, we hope and are working to make sure halt our children don't end up that way by listening to them, by giving them their own voice and outlet and hoping that gives them freedom to discover and grow as people. >> absolutely. and for those who are watching and i commend you for this, but there's a really great pages of resources for parents, for teenagers in the book, so there are some resources in there that are at your disposal and in the back of the book and it's a good piece of paper, a list, to have at the end because you read this book and there's so much -- i was glad to see that and it's a great resource for those who are interested in this or going

through this or want. with that we're at an hour and i don't want to keep you any longer because it is late in italy, so i'm going to drop a link never chat oncemer if -- once more and you can buy a copy of troubled, ken's book, and i -- while i do that i will let you have the last word, sir. >> what am i supposed to say? i really -- you have been super supportive throughout this entire pandemic. you had me on back in march, you have me on now. i guess it -- or april. and it's been great, and i can't wait to come out to mystic. >> absolutely. >> i'm dying to come out there. >> absolutely. when the next book comes our out we'll have you for an in-person talk at either mystic or the westerly. >> bit that time we'll need an arena to host all of my loyal

fans. >> yeah. absolutely. well, we actually in downtown west early have a beautiful new theater that it supposed to be opening this spring so there you go. >> perfect. we'll sell it out. >> yay. thank you to our audience and arch who joined this evening and, ken, thank you so much. wish you all the best and i hope you have aful evening. >> thank you. good night. >> good night. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2. created by america's cable television candidate. other today we're brought to you by these television companies. >> other look at publishing industry news. hillary clinton is writing a thriller with novelist louise penny that is excelled to all be released in october. the book to ited toy state or

terror "women focus on effort of a first time secretary of state who quote joins the administration or her rife, president inaugurate after four years of american leadership that shrank from the world stage, series of terroristier attacks throws global order goo disarray and ticket says assembling a team. last week the american booksellers association hostvirtual edition of their winter institute. and annual conference for book sellers to discuss business practices. this year's meeting included insight on e-commerce and book selling during the pandemic as well as talks by former president barack obama and best selling offer breny brown, has died at the age of 101. part of the beat literary movement in the 1950s and founded the book store and publisher city lights in 1953 in san francisco.

in other new york npd book scan record britain book sales were up 21% for the week ending february 15th and the hum home of the late novellest john steinbeck is one for sale. this house the called my little fishing place is located in sag harbor, new york it's where the author wrote his last novel, the winter our our discontent. home missing sold by a trust created by the author's late wife and is listed for $17.9 million. booktv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. you can watch all of our past programs anytime at booktv.org. >> booktv on c-span2 hat top mon knicks books and authors every weekend. sunday evening, at 9:00 p.m. eastern, on "after words," nationally syndicate it radio host arc me at that time six on

his book, fish out of water, search for the meaning of life. interviewed by the claremont institute center for in the american way of life fellow. then at 10 been eastern, there has been an increase of sexual assault in europe due to immigration in her book, prey. immigration, islam and the erosion of women's rights. ... introduce you to call in briar and bill carper they are the co-authors of this two book, working