historian george nash author of the conservative intellectual movement in america talks about the past and future of conservatism in the united states. 9:00 p.m. eastern in her book and asian american reckoning essayist kathie in asian american about issues of race and identity. on sunday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "after words" the "washington post" joe beat work discusses his book red line per the unraveling of syria and america's race to destroy the most dangerous arsenal in the world. he is interviewed by georgetown university professor and author angela stents. watch book tv this weekend on cspan2. ♪ ♪ >> hello my name is jeremy collins from the director of conferences and symposium here at the national world war ii museum's institute for the study of warrant and democracy. and we have a great program for you today.

it is going to feature doctor william starkey and doctor jason dossey. this is continuing the rich and wonderful content museum has been providing throughout this black history month. a great story for this particular month. but is a great story for any month. and to lead us in this conversation, it is my pleasure to hand it off to the institute's research historian doctor jason dossey. jason. >> jeremy thank you very much. let me extend my welcome to everyone out there as well. to this webinar given state african-americans on the home front. we are delighted to be joined for this webinar by doctor william starkey britain wanted to say little bit about doctor's turkey before we begin a conversation. he is historian of the modern american south at the university of north carolina chapel hill where he teaches courses on modern american

history, southern history, the civil rights movement, and history of america in the 1960s. his first book to write in the light of freedom as a co- edited collection of newspapers essays and poems produced by african-american freedom school students during the mississippi freedom summer of 1964. his most recent book, have a copy of it right here for those who are interested, his most recent bird is hattiesburg an american city in black and white printed biracial history of jim crow that was published by harvard university press in march of 2019. so william, with that introduction let me just say it's great to see you. welcome and thank you for joining us. >> jason thank you so much for having me it's really a pleasure to be here. william and i this is for our audience should be aware for william and i this is a way of

reconnecting about teaching at the university of southern mississippi several years ago we were getting close to finishing her phd's are dissertations were getting very close to completion at that point where the same wing of the liberal arts building there, he said talk college football about teaching and about history. and said this has been a really great we can resume some of those conversations from several years ago. so for a topic like this it is a huge topic for their so much to it there's always the issue of what you include, what you really she can't get to, or do you start, where you wrap up? and so it seems like one place to begin, and really interesting point to begin a conversation is with african americans in pearl harbor. what i wanted to start with that is to ask about if you

could tell our audience something in general about how black americans responded to december 7, 1941. with their reactions really any different from that of other groups in the u.s.? and then a final point, is a political one. african americans began to vote in large numbers for the democratic party. do you think that made a real difference in the way they responded to the japanese attack on pearl harbor? >> great jason, thank you. so broadly speaking african-americans probably attach the attack on pearl harbor like many other americans. the sense of shock and dismay that their country had been attacked. they were stunned and most people did not know of course

the inner workings of this rivalry that predated pearl harbor for decades. they were so stunned that america had been attacked by an enemy that they did not believe we were at war with which was technically true. african-americans, many people black folks going to join the military wake of pearl harbor appeared they wanted to help defend their country. one of the early heroes of pearl harbor was in fact an african-american. that man named dorie miller who was aboard the west virginia during the attack at pearl harbor. and of course work to save the lives of many of his fellow soldiers. and so yes, african-americans were chomping at the bit at times to go ahead and join military service in order to help the united states in this fight. i think it was pretty universal for african-americans to be inspired to pick up this call to defend the country.

not just for people who supported franklin roosevelt and the democratic party, even for black republicans to pertinent 1940s are plenty of black republicans. there plenty of black republicans really up until 1964 election. so whether they are democrat or republican, african-americans jumped at the chance on many occasions to help defend their country in the wake of that attack. >> thank you, i'm glad you brought up the reference to dorie miller. the museum has some about him recently his story is so important and interesting. what's interesting about 1941 prior to imperial japan's attack on pearl harbor, that is been quite a year already in the african-american community around issues about freedom and democracy, which of course are going to be central to the way to the war effort buried the way the united since understood the

work, the way it waged a war. how it talked about the importance of fighting and winning that war. this is a question here about the march on washington. i think when many americans hear those words, march on washington they automatically think of 1963 in the famous i have a dream speech. there was an earlier or plans for an earlier march on washington going back to 1941. could you tell us about what was involved in this earlier march? and what happened to the idea for the march? >> yes sure. this is one of the more fascinating sort of what-ifs in american history what if this march it actually happens? this march is planned largely by this guy named philip randolph. a bullet ran up was ahead head of a union in all black

union. he'd been the head of this union basically since the renaissance in the 1920s. this union start up pretty small but had been growing to the 1930s and going into the 1940s is getting pretty big and pretty influential. they met in harlem, that's where they were largely headquartered. they're pretty influential in terms of getting people who worked on trains into this unit and fighting for increased african-american civil rights. because they're coming so influential in new york especially both in the state and the city of new york, a lot of white politicians stopped by their organization are at their convention to speak and pay homage. they wanted the black vote. and so their union meeting in 1940 attracts thousands of people. but among the thousands of people come to that meeting our newark city mayor

laguardia, near state governor and future senator herbert lehman, united states secretary of labor frances perkins and the first lady are selfless at this union meeting. she speaks to the union mean that night. she says and i quote, the color line is gradual been broken down to becoming a thing about the past. all the other speakers get up and say we're going to attack jim crow the southwood were going to make sure african-americans have the right to vote. twelve days after that meeting the president host head of the naacp and ran off in the white house couple excepted that he appoints the first black general. there is a growing sense that african-americans in this voting block democratic party messages something to address their concerns pretty specially coming out of new york. now at about this exact same time, a philip rado says i'm going to flex my muscles a little bit. we want even more. over going to do is going to demonstrate on washington. okay? what they want to do is they

want to desegregate the armed forces is what they're calling for they also continuing the push to end jim crow in the south. and so, they plan this march for 1941. they think by the late spring of 1940 when there's going to be about 100,000 african-americans were going to show up to this march. so of course the famous march of 1963 was about 4 million they think about 100,000 people at 1941 were going to come to this. which would be a very large number of people to demonstrate on the mall in washington. especially at a moment when the united states is not yet entered the war, but it's made very clear which site it is on. the president of the united states is signed onto this atlantic charter with the british. he has also consistently calling the war a war for democracy. saying the united states is on the right side of this conflict even those not formally in it yet, still helping out britain and russia. until this would have been no

mostly embarrassing of the world stage if all of these black people came and demonstrated over violations of their civil rights in this country as the united states was saying we are the good guys here across the globe. so it happened basically is a philip randolph was convinced by the roosevelt administration to call off the march, which is exactly what they did. and in response to that there were promises made that after the war were going to really take a hard line on civil rights. which they did, of course it franklin roosevelt did not live to see that. what he did live to see what he did do was executive order 8802, which played a fair employment practices commission. there's a lot of things we can say about that. the most important thing is this, that required that if you got a defense contract during the war, there a lot of defense contracts going around. everybody wanted a defense

contractor k customer kissimmee if you get when you cannot segregate your factories. and that was huge. that was not actually largely enforce. who's not huge in terms of desegregation the south although some, a couple were desegregated. but it was the promise of the federal government coming in and saying segregation in the southern states is wrong. we are not going to do business with companies that have segregation or cities that have segregation. and so it sort of a seed that is planted. after the war they called for permanent employment practice commission to see this plan that this is a federal government will step up and protect african american civil rights in the south. >> i really why do much the named a philip randolph in there. he is a figure that often can get overlooked in the history of the civil rights era because of the importance of figures like doctor king and others, and there are so many

younger leadership group there. and off brand off a bit and are the liberal movement. and struggling against jim crow and seeing his role right here 1941 even before the u.s. gets into war. speaking of the issue of labor and the war, it's already talked about african-americans signing up to fight in large numbers. and obviously large numbers of black men and women will be entering the workforce as part of winning the war effort at home. obviously there has been huge numbers already in the workforce who want to talk about the issue of african americans labor and the war effort here the couple of questions. so the first one is this. we build this issue about black workers, what should we know about their experience of

the work? what you think is really significant, distinct about that? and then a follow-up, what is the shift to war production mean for african-american women? >> so african americans played enormous roles in making all the goods that we used to make war, okay? a lot of factories were segregated some places, which was loosely enforced. but in major industrial centers like detroit and oakland, california and los angeles and philadelphia, black folks go in apply for the jobs that are being produced by this and need to make the bombs, the tanks, the plaintiffs total war. so once united states starts producing warmaking materials in 1940, the economy just starts to boom coming out of the great depression. and african americans get a lot of these jobs.

we think there about 17 million new jobs created during world war ii largely in the defense industry. and wages start to go up or there's a lot more money to go around. black folks want to get a lot of these jobs. unemployment falls to virtually zero during world war ii. so african americans move to places where these jobs are. the some of the big shifts that happen we think of it a million and half black folks move, both have the jim crow south to places like pennsylvania, california, illinois, new york, new jersey, places like that. there's a huge great migration. that's where the most obvious effects here this huge great migration of black people out of states like mississippi. in 1940 there more black people in mississippi than white people. by 1950 that was not true because so many black people had left. so that's when the big parts of the shift it changes the actual demographics of our country. all black people to go to harlem, detroit, chicago, many of them are still there.

many of the people's families first survived in those places. so black folks getting better jobs, using those better wages to buy new homes where they could, to pay for rent in northern cities were they could. not everything was peachy certainly. but a lot of african americans became middle-class at that time if you will because they were able to tap into these were industry jobs. for african-american women's especially working outside of the south, they were able to get jobs there were well-paying for the first time in many of their lives for if you are a black woman i knew lived in alabama referral to world war ii the only job he could probably get was working as a domestic. being someone's maid, nanny, cook or something like that. if you had a college degree maybe you could be a teacher. that's pretty much it. if you leave alabama good oakland you can get a job as a welder. you could join a union.

you can get a good hourly wage paying job that paid you 800 or nine 100% more even than what you were making back in alabama washing peoples sheets in their backyard. so it's enormously transformative for many african-americans and their families who moved out of the south especially to take these jobs. even the people who stayed in the south, was enormously transformative because a lot of them still work to the defense industries. even if they did not necessarily take a job where the factories in new orleans for example, a lot of them could take a job on an army base. and if you are washing laundry at an army base you're probably making more than when you're washing laundry in that small town of alabama. so african americans tapping into this great migration, then of course it leads to improved economic outlook, financial outlook for a lot of

african-american families. >> you're really drawing our attention to just how transformative the war was on the home front for african americans. i mean people, especially after the great depression that compounded by jim crow there in the south. and then now they're seeing real opportunities open up. they required them to move. their real opportunities for getting a better life at least economically. even in the jim crow south that were going to get to in a few questions here. mick let me add one more thing. one thing i think people take for granted is her current political makeup. how do we get -- we just saw this in the last presidential election. through all these black voters in detroit milwaukee. how did they get there? it's really world war ii they get to places like detroit and milwaukee. so one of the things that happens right out of the war

has beget black congressman coming out of harlem , coming up of chicago , coming up of detroit. that's all because of the great migration. we also get national presidential election were people have to pay attention to more black voters and africans move during world war ii they move very selectively active actually. they moved almost exclusively to 76 filed here new york, new jersey, pennsylvania, michigan, ohio, california, illinois. you take those states in presidential election you're doing pretty well. okay customer california, michigan ohio et cetera. because of that even in 1948 -- 1952 a lot of national politicians have to start looking towards black voters who now live in places like ohio where they can vote. before they lived in the city they couldn't. it really transforms our national election in that way. >> right. we're still seeing as you

point out the effects of this, about the enhancement of black political power and in so many different states and world war ii was crucial to that. i think maybe at the end we were able to come back and say more about that. they're generally aware of that detailing which is a double d campaign. can you tell us about how this campaign originated? and how it became such i don't think it's an exaggeration became a national phenomenon during world war ii. >> guests double v means victory at home victory abroad. this is coined by the pittsburgh courier. it largely comes out of a response to world war i. world war i happened while

greater civil rights. when world war ii happened black people could not in most of the south. they said this time okay really, the president is costley talking about this being a war for democracy. this is a war against fascism. okay, let's make sure we can participate in the democracy here we are now going to have this global understanding that democracy beats fascism, okay? scott silly during the worsening gas, go out, by your liberty bonds. work in the factories, serve your country. but, when this is over with got to bring that democracy home from a consulate reminding people this is double d campaign about the mistakes of the war in asia, and africa, new york. but also mining people stakes at the war were back here in the united states of america.

that's the double v campaign coined by the pittsburgh courier but used by all sorts of black leaders everywhere. it's all over the media. >> it does really become this moment for not only african-americans i think we look at other countries to who are worthy black freedom struggle and what that's going to mean, what kind of impact that's going to have as well which it has a trans national international echo as well. that's really important and you give it perspective on how this started and how it's going to be really transformative in the country. in terms of your own work, we've already referred sometimes to the gym bro south in the state of mississippi. i have a few questions to really connect to your very important 2019 book we met.

the state of mississippi their scholarship is implored jim crow segregation there how did the warm time expansion at camp shelby. they were time expansion of the training center at camp shelby impact the deep south kind of like hattiesburg? >> yes there is a lot to say there. this is fascinating i think because the struggle about fighting this war for democracy and the issue of the jim crow south. but not only that, the other issue here is this total world. world war ii is the last time the united states was engaged in what we might think of as being a total work. that means throw everything down, everything else is secondary everything is a side, is involved little kids

picking up bottles to men fighting on the front line. everyone do whatever it takes. the one exception to that total war right was where we don't actually say okay, let's they're all this aside to go fight the not these is jim crow itself. and if so, what happens in hattiesburg? had he world war i era, because the south had better weather when the united states began to mobilize before pearl harbor even happened it starts sending troops out to these troop training centers that rita violated former world war i installations like camp shelby in hattiesburg mississippi and start sending these troops there but there is a problem, right customer could problem itself is jim crow. so when they're getting african-americans and training them to go fight overseas about a billion black people served overseas in world war ii they can't just say okay we've got to be here go send

them can't just say that. it's a jim crow south. for sending black troops to texas or alabama or mississippi or louisiana, you got to think okay, how are they going to fit into that society? because all the things are willing to compromise to fight this war, that is one thing they will not compromise. so you cannot just say a code got 25000 black troops will send them here. it's a negotiation right between the local chamber of commerce, the local army commander, the local black community that already existed, and you know leaders who want to have these guys a trained. that is why the issues the army costley face in a place like hattiesburg. hattiesburg has a saying black soldiers could not write in the taxi with white soldiers, okay? so, the taxi companies are saying well, i've got a capacity for four passengers and i've got two black soldiers into white soldiers they both want to go to the same place, like no, no, no,

most of segregation. there's all these little ways it's inconvenient to try to make war and a place like hattiesburg, mississippi or in the south in general. then there like where to be put all these folks? were they go stay question academy for the black troops when they leave the base of the black community in the white troops go to the white community, several guys hundred getting shot in downtown had a birthday get shot by a white cop, basically they thought they were not acting improperly no? that's a very, very tricky situation all over the south he can only imagine the nightmare. but also the frustration we can't go say we are in a total war wesco balls to the wall to do it ever we do. scott local segregation. the other thing the people of hattiesburg go nuts when camp shelby bands to mobilize for the same is true all of the

south they got guys commit big government checks. they got soldiers coming and they're getting paid per the lc a lot of construction crews a lot of workers. this is a region coming of the great depression things are bleak all across the south. when you start building field hospitals and that sort of thing that provides jobs. when they start the construction program at camp shelby they get them from 17 different states to get a guy that hitchhiked from rhode island to take one of those jobs is a huge financial boom to the local economy in hattiesburg and everywhere that had a military base. also during the war need all sorts of things. soldiers need stuff any things that he then he things to do. the local farmers, what happens with them? local construction crews, people who run the movie houses is a great financial opportunity for the city of hattiesburg is an issue of

race have been discussing overall to an incredible economic boost for the local economy in hattiesburg and elsewhere. >> such an important moment in that city's history william i think living there we used to see, you could see remnants of that in stories about that. the research has really filled back has shone in terms of what you call the biracial history just what kind of impact the war had. this next question is kind of an elaboration on that, just say more about some of the specific challenges the u.s. army faced in hattiesburg. you kind of alluded to that already. but to develop that a bit. they're very distinct challenges the army encountered having such a huge operation in a place like camp shelby. >> one of the challenges was

this race issue. one of things they did have going for them in hattiesburg was hattiesburg had a very vibrant black community. because of that they can work the leaders that black black community local businessmen, teachers and clergy with who they worked with. hattiesburg built a black or the few places that brandon brand-new black uso to have a place for all the black soldiers to go. but is still today the only standing black uso that was built originally during world war ii. so there is a nostalgia what you do with? honesty the biggest challenge army had in hattiesburg was about price control.

people are coming and they got their girlfriends, they got their wives on have a good time in town, they want to go out have a good time and going off to war. they also want to go to church. a lot of people want to go to town to go to church on sunday. get off the base with the army chaplin and go to an actual methodist or whatever they were. but when they're doing that, they're getting gouged. because all of the local people who own property no soldiers have no world to go. they start selling lincoln's and rooms dividing them up and charging these exorbitant prices. the local army folks are begging people's stop charging them eight or nine times we should be getting in rent. you are just gouging these guys charge them $9 -- $10 a night just because they knew they could. conversation with price control issue two. locals in hattiesburg make a killing on charging rent to the soldiers during world war ii. >> incredible. i probably have some questions regarding the deep south, and african americans and the war,

get to the q and a. but this next question takes us out of the south to a really crucial moment of the war, that is detroit in 1943. there's obviously the stereotype still endures about wartime unity. and what we saw, we see in a place like detroit in 1943 was a race riots in their is the limits of that unity. it is an important moments, it is often overlooked. can you talk about the detroit race right of 1943 on what exactly happened there? how we should think about this in relation to the larger war effort and the homefront for african-americans? >> there are two stories from world war ii that when you

tell young people today, it just blows their mind. this in the soldiers vote bill to which i will be happy to talk about. detroit 1943 have a race right? you are right exactly. love world war ii america's unity pulling together, fighting the nasis. in the middle of all this is a race riots. so detroit is obviously a booming industrial center at this moment in time. between 1940 the u.s. really starts gearing up for the war in 1943 about 550,000 people moved to detroit. that's probably more people that live in detroit proper today. an enormous amount of people moved to detroit. now about 5000 of those people are white. about 50000 of those people were black. okay? many came from the south. and so african-americans are there going some the jobs we talked about. and there is a public housing program to house all these

people. if got to do something if you are the government to make homes for all these people pulling into the city. and so when black people were accepted into public housing project that also had white people in there, this riots broke out. thousands of local whites began attacking black people across the city in this movement to resist integrated public housing. right? there's some great pictures of this you can find. so 1943 in the middle of this war, detroit has a we call a race riot. thirty-four people were killed during these grass roots acts of violence throughout the city. several hundred others were wounded. during this major military emergency of world war ii, the united states had a : 6000 troops. not to go to burma, not to go to japan, to go to detroit to put down this race riot in the middle of this war for

democracy. which is pretty mind blowing if you really think about it. >> it really is, thing is one of the reasons why it is so important to not lose it when one is talk about the history of the war. in the sort of spirit of democracy, the antifascist struggle that this happens. it's not just any city. it is the motor city, it is detroit the center of the american economy and had been for decades or that breaks out for anything that's very helpful for us when we are thinking about these issues about unity and about the war effort and the role of democracy and expectation of democracy and equality, how that actually plays out during the war itself. well, this next question is something that's been of great interest to you, it's really two bills that have a huge

impact on african americans. not only on african-americans but certainly on them. think we should just take it them in this order, it's one that i think is also overlooked which is the soldiers bill. and then, how the g.i. bill, how that affects african-americans. these bills they really do have a huge impact. schematics of the soldiers vote to bill covid 1944, this is the one presidential election that is squarely in the middle of world war ii. woodward to affects many elections. this is the one that's right in the middle of the conflict. and of course this is a war for democracy. and so because it's a war for democracy, because there are men stationed all across the globe fighting in this war for

democracy, a lot of politicians want to make sure that the very soldiers fighting the war can vote themselves. this makes perfect sense break the guys fighting for democracy should be allowed to participate in the democracy, great okay. so they introduce the soldiers of vote to bill but there is a hiccup to the soldiers of vote bill. you might think that all politicians would say yes, they are fighting for democracy of course they can participate in the democracy. but not everybody thanks so. so what happens is there is a deal brokered in congress which basically allows the decision to fall back on the states. i thought going to be the federal government mandating that all states have to accept all these soldiers absentee ballots is going to come all the trust falls back on states to run their own elections which is what states do anyway. and so some of the states decide to allow effort absentee belts to come in from soldiers, okay? north carolina is one of those

states. but a few states decline this opportunity. alabama, mississippi, louisiana they all say no, we are not going to let absentee ballots come in from soldiers stationed overseas. a lot of your audience can probably understand why, when you get an absentee ballot, you can't self the person is black or white. because they did not want to allow african-american soldiers to vote, because they could not actually see them, to judge their race they decided to reject absentee ballots and not allow american soldiers to vote during this war for democracy. and so this is one of the snags with the soldiers vote bill. it may be the most stunning contradiction of the entire war itself for the guys actually doing the fighting on the ground are not allowed to vote because of jim crow era

voting restrictions. the g.i. bill, there's a lot we can say about this. let me give you the basic goodness and badness people do bad news first. the g.i. bill itself is not necessarily segregated. but again from the federal government large response to the army in the 1930s set of got to do something more for these guys to help them. also right in line with new deal era in economic sinking let's empower people to be able to participate in the economy, okay? great, why give soldiers the opportunity to get some tuition money they want to go to college, to get money if they want to apprentice as a plumber or something like that. and also to buy a home. will do low-interest mortgages to buy a home. sounds great in principle. it can apply to people who serve black or white. the problem though is that segregation prevented all people from accessing all

benefits equally. for example, if you are an african-american from you go fight in the door you try to get the g.i. bill he might be very successful in doing that you might get your loan, but guess what? the entire neighborhoods on long island do not allow black people to live there. so in that regard you cannot use the g.i. bill the same way. you might be able to buy another home in a neighborhood that might not have the same sort of increase in equity over generations, that is one way. if you are from the south, dropped out of high school in response to pearl harbor, wit and fought for his country, he could not go to the university of mississippi. he got the g.i. bill, he could not go to old this, he had to go to the black college we got a great education at that black college but that's what way the agent g.i. bill was itself discriminatory because black people could not access all of the possible benefits

of using that g.i. bill the time. sorry the g.i. bill itself is not discriminatory but the way people who got it cut access resources certainly was. the good news on the other hand is that it does help a lot of people jump up into the middle class. evers is a great example of that. he ought to go to college because of that. he went to college, he got a job, he became middle-class african-american at the time. one of the things we see in the wake of world war ii is that african-americans economic situations improving greatly because of the work and stuff we been talking about but also the g.i. bill. people can start businesses, they can get loans to do that a lot of people to go to college. so there were many benefits even though they were quite the same benefits that white people may be able to access. a lot of people who end up with this g.i. bill and that becoming involved in the civil rights movement because they were able to use it to start a

business or go to college they were not as reliant on them white employer has they might have been in the past. >> thank you that is really fascinating about how the bill on the one hand like the soldiers of vote bill really exemplified how to nation's segregationists are about trying to realizing the war is going to empower african-americans raise going to open doors for them and fearful to that in trying to keep that at bay, even as this wars being fought in the name of protecting democracy, crushing fascism. in the case of even the g.i. bill has a sort of two-sided aspect. it does offer real opportunities for african americans. looking at that's our time here, william we are kind of getting into the q&a part of

our presentation. so, there's obviously so much more to say here and questions are already coming in. one that's already come in is following up on your comments about edgar's, could you say something more about the role that african american world war ii veterans like evers plays in this case early as in immediate postwar years of we are going to come to understand as a civil rights mover the modern civil rights movement. >> yes, there's a bunch of different ways to think of this. a little more famous as a sweetie is sociologist publishes this book, an american dilemma noting the obvious differences between our message of fighting for democracy and the realities of black lives in the jim crow south. then of course is a lot of people that observed this contradiction. i think that is a little bit

overblown. black people certainly knew there was already a contradiction by before world war ii. they did not eat a fight against the nancy's to show them that. but a lot of people i think were essentially set up. there were people who, if you go to the process of going to boot camp. have getting on a ship going to risk your life and fighting overseas and you come back and they tell you that you cannot vote, a lot of people simply had had it. , many people involved in the civil rights movement come back. but they almost exclusively focus on, and of the civil rights movement there's a lot of marches in citizen things like that, these people want to vote. that is what they are most worried about. the not worry about going to the water fountain or whatever they want to vote they want to participate in the democracy. that's one of the things the blacks really focused on. a lot of them again, they had

just had enough. they just work and live like that anymore after what they had been through. >> that is so important. in fact one of her other audience members wanted to follow-up on that very points, william, about however can american veterans coming back resolved to not take this anymore. that after everything that had been fought for to come back and be denied just basic civil rights that other americans enjoyed. this is from jay his question is that you do you see a similar resolve among black workers? and those who had been on the homefront, had been part of contributing to the arsenal of democracy that when the war ends, we've already talked about a figure like a philip randolph you see in terms of black workers assess similar kind of determine

resolute attitude. >> yes absolutely. the thing that is a little bit tricky though, is its best is seen in the north, that's what i really want to savor it i wish i could say you saw this crowd swell of people all across the south he had been working in these factories. but because so many people had moved to the north, that's where you really get that crowd swell. people start to join the naacp for one in places like new york and new jersey and california, naacp membership skyrockets. in 1940 the naacp had about 50000 members. by 1946 naacp has about 500,000 members written so that is one of the way black workers begin to get involved. many of them joined civil rights organizations like the naacp. they also begin to vote. they are very active

politically. they are putting pressure on different people in places like detroit, and new york, and california are black people can vote they are putting pressure and city leaders to desegregate, to do something about the south. know what happens in the south comes a low bit slower, but he start to see some real results coming out of the north. one, truman desegregated the military 1948. okay question if that's one of the things that happened as a result of the pressure by a philip randolph but also black voters, black workers who are paying attention "after words". there's all sorts of different levels of desegregation in american life begins occur in the 1950s jackie robinson 1947, no coincidence that happened right after world war ii as the black community in new york grows and increases not just in its awareness but the sort of resolve to fight for civil rights pressuring

local leaders to say let's desegregate the brooklyn dodgers. that's we really start to see this initial groundswell is outside of the south even though it will sort of eventually trickle into the south. in 1948 the first presidential election after world war ii both the democratic and republican parties have civil rights as part of their platform that your rate okay? we often think of white southerners leading the democratic party, white southerners needed a place to go if they were segregationists. 1948 they cannot go to the democratic party or the republican party because both of those parties were nodding to black voters they form their own dixie party that's a result of these black workers had moved out of the south and were becoming more political and politics by 1940. >> that's right action leads to your comment about the two-party system.

this next question william is really about the democratic party in particular. do you think one of the reasons why segregation was not challenged more than it was during the war itself, was the influence of southern democrats still had within the party you're so, to attributed to that? use the other factors playing a role in the unwillingness to more directly contest jim crow? >> guest: yes the southern democrat influence on fd public housing things like that. i think mostly before the war, during the war and think a lot of people are busy office he occupied with the war. their limitations because of

that. there is sort of a more silent fight going on for them about who gets to live in public housing in places like detroit or places like hattiesburg mississippi even pretty mother are some advancement there are people who come back and have the exact opposite view as african-americans. the man that killed everts was also a world war ii veteran. many people thought this was a war to protect our way of life paid for them that way of life is directly related to recent segregation of white supremacy. these fights continue. so what happens in the late 1940s is that truman is being pushed on one hand from the black voters to have a permanent fair employment practices commission to say that if the federal government does business with any of these places they need to desegregate. and the white south loses their mind over this. one of the things is really underappreciated to think in modern u.s. history, fpc was

always there during world war ii, but after world war ii when african americans are like let's make this permanent, no segregation defense industry that never happened. that took in her norma's backlash the dixie's were part of that backlash as well. it was not a march towards progress there many people who wanted to fight the oncoming racial desegregation that people are starting to really talk about. especially in the north in the late 1940s. >> thank you. that leads to the next question then, which is that obviously for african americans there is a focus with a double v campaign on wanting victory at home and victory abroad. at this point, how international is african americans sense about racism being an issue, not only for them but for people's and

africa, people in asia, that the white supremacy as a category, we know when does that really become such an important category for people opposing racism? and it people in the black freedom struggle, when did they start seeing themselves as part of this international problem? that racism has to be defeated really across the world? i think you pointed to a little bit about that how veterans are in the pacific, they are in europe, they are seeing very different places encountering very different social and cultural institutions and situations there. so this is really a question about sense of internationalism coming into the civil rights movement. >> yes. he think especially on the far left if you will, black

activist especially the 1930s had always viewed this as an international struggle. there are some elements of african-american life that go back to booker t. washington and frederick douglass. they viewed as an international struggle. but the inner consciousness discretion the 1950s with the conversation was going both ways, okay? the planted charter the 49 states prior to world war ii a chart about what the world is going to look like after the united states and its ally had oneness. one of those visions was for sovereignty. sovereign nations the end of colonialism basically. assist in that had existed for 78 years across the globe. all of these countries, many of whom you have a lot of not white people in them like

india, the whole continent of africa, vietnam, these folks are like great this atlantic charter, wonderful let's get going. so covid 1945 -- 1947 -- 1963 is a sonorous wave of creation of new countries overthrowing governments starting with india, moving onto french indochina, thailand, leos, vietnam, the whole continent of africa. assets happening black americans are paying attention, especially in africa. to martin luther king jr. when he becomes famous in the mid- 50s, he goes to ghana. also spent time in india connecting the international issues and the black press especially in the 1950s the black presses all over what's happening in africa, right? thank these folks in africa overthrown the colonization and they get democracy.

those are our brothers, those are our allies. if they can do it there, we want to do it here too. and of course this is all happening in the united states we are curing the un, international governing body, and black americans are very much tying into these conversations saying okay, let's do it here next week the very connected with what's happening in west africa listed hereto. >> by bring that in you reminding us the two events that ties african-americans had to pan africanism going back at least to the 1920s her playing a role in those conversations well before world war ii. that's maybe a place to conclude, the issue of the links right, between world war ii and the civil rights era, i think people wanting, what do we do with these? how do we think about these links as you point out, it was

civil rights struggle for freedom and equality was hardly new in 1941. that had been ongoing for decades. as or something you like to say by way of summary for us to think about, what exactly do we do with these links? how does a civil rights movement, there were other issues that would have helped come about without world war ii. but certainly what you pointed out does have a real effect on how it came about, about opening up opportunities et cetera for african americans. >> not everybody would say this, many people focused on this contradiction that we've been talking about between the realities of jim crow and the concept of democracy the u.s. engage in this fight for democracy across the globe. but for me, not many people would say but it's about the economy.

many people can obvious make the observation that black folks like wait a minute we should have democracy too. i argue that black people already knew that. they knew was a contradiction it's about the economy is on the economic conditions, it's about moving to california, new jersey, et cetera. it's about getting better jobs. the american economy as a whole becomes a lot better during world war ii and after world war ii. although black people cannot tap into that equally, they do tap into that, absolutely. let people use the g.i. bill. people get better jobs they moved to cities with more political influence. and because of that we get the 1950s. which we all know the 1950s happen, we have at hindsight. but the 1950s as they were happening was the most rapid era of desegregation and history of american life until the 1960s of course. 1950s were a lot more

progressive racially that anything that had come before that. that's a direct outgrowth of world war ii. there's many ways you can look at it. another is the warchest that the naacp gets with its membership skyrockets by a factor of ten you get money guess which you can do without money? he can go fight court cases like eventually brown versus board of education okay covid 1954. so to me at the end of the day it's about the economy. and so, even though we get this message and this idea about double v, that's important but the resources that go into african-americans communities, their churches, their colleges, the number of african americans in college doubles in the 1950s mostly because of the economy. i think that is the most crucial factor for what then leapt of course the civil rights movement. >> you have given us a lot to consider there. so i want to thank you very much for a terrific exchange

about african americans, the homefront. obviously this deserves so many more webinars and public programs. this has really pushed the discussion forward here. so it is much appreciated. like to thank our online audience for joining us today and make you aware of the fact that that museum would be hosting its international conference on friday and saturday march 5 and sixth. it is entirely virtual and entirely free, free is a good thing. you can find out more information at www.two conference.com. we hope you join us for that. so with that, let me think everybody again. and we hope that you will join us for future events here at the national world war ii museum. ♪

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>> welcome you to a virtual evening with julie cooke, to discuss her new book, "come fly the world" the jet age story of the women of pan-am. a riveting complex portrait of the adventurous lives of pan-am stewardesses during aviation's golden age. july. >> host: cooke is a journalist and travel writersse