so, i just hope that we are more successful as mothers than advocates. [laughter] >> well, thank you both so much. i cannot wait to dig further into this book come i'm so happy to have been here, hearing you both speak this evening. want to thank you so much for moderating and thank you to everybody who's in the audience for joining us tonight is has been route recorded and there is a link once we post the video we will share that with everybody who registered so you will be able to revisit this great talk. some think again to everyone, thanks for a lovely, lovely evening. back book tv on cspan2, every weekend for the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for book tv comes from these television companies who support cspan2 as a public

service. ♪ ♪ >> at the outbreak of the civil war the united states capitol, the home of the house of representatives and the senate was in the midst of an extensive renovation. open circle of combs arose the awaiting the iconic dome we know today. president abraham lincoln famously remarked that construction would continue, even in wartime because if people see the capitol going on it is a sideman ten the union shall go on. inside the capitol the work of congress went on as well. you may think first of lincoln and the famous generals when you consider the civil war trade with the rules of government continued to members of the house and senate crafted legislation that reshape our nation for decades to come senator thaddeus stevens of pennsylvania was vilified as a leader of the radicals but in bruce levine's new biographer we learn of his dedication to freedom for the enslaved and

the vision of equal, civil and black americans but his drive helped push through the 14th and 15th amendment to the constitution. historian eric boehner has prays this book saying at last, thaddeus stevens with the 19th century's greatest proponents of racial justice gets the biography he deserves. bruce levine is a bustling author for books in the civil war era including the fall of the house of dixie and confederate emancipation which received the peter seabrook award for civil war scholars and was made when the top top ten works of nonfiction of this year by the "washington post". he is a professor emeritus of history at the university of illinois. joining bruce levine in conversation today is historian and author, doctor is a chair of the american history the university of connecticut and the distinguished scholar in residence at the american society for the current academic year.

she is the author of the counter resolution of slavery in the slaves cost the history of abolition. no let's hear from bruce levine. thank you for joining us today. >> >> thank you for that introduction. i think it to all our audience out there for joining us. i am delighted here to talk with distinguished civil war historian and also bruce levine on his latest biography of the great thaddeus stevens. i also like to mention to the audience that we will have ten minutes of question and answer from the audience after our conversation. so feel free to put down your questions in the youtube chaps. i should be able to read them. so, it is a wonderful this

unusually warm spring day to join you today, bruce to talk about one of my favorite american-statesman and that is thaddeus stevens. as was mentioned earlier, for a long time we have not had a modern biography of thaddeus stevens. and could you reflect and just tell us why that is so? and what drew you to write a biography of him? >> thank you for being here. and for that good starting question. beginning in the 1880s, the north began to retreat from the achievements of the civil war. began to retreat from reconstruction.

began to retreat from its promise of equality for african americans. and as it did so it also turned its back not only on the african-american population, but upon those who had led or championed that population. and so, people like thaddeus stevens who is closely identified with the most consistent struggle against white supremacy became easy and obvious targets for those anxious to vary or vilify that path and those achievements. and that attitude was prevalent not only among the northern political leave it also penetrated into academia. and so scholars, north as well as south accepted the view of stevens as an evil predatory

individual motivated by the worst possible impulses. in that same point of view was taken up by hollywood. there is a series of films presenting thaddeus stevens thinly disguised as a basically the same kind of creature. even john f. kennedy in the middle of the 1950s when he wrote or publishes book profiles encourage vilify stevens in line with what he was probably had been taught at harvard. in that same line of interpretation. so it takes the civil rights movement in the united states to begin to compel the main stream reconsideration both of the civil war and reconstruction, and people like stevens. and while there are a few

biographies of stevens published following the civil rights movement, my opinion, stevens had not even been received full recognition that he deserved. >> absolutely, i agree with you there. i think with the overthrow of reconstruction we have an apology of the civil war and then a very sort of critical view of the experiment in interracial democracy and citizenship all the things that steven stood up for. it became quite popular. even in academia. and were still living with the legacy of that, right? those symbols, statues in those questions still very much live for us. >> absolutely. so stevens is really a person

who speaks is most to us today as he could have his time. go ahead. back to pick up the last part of your question, which i inadvertently drop, what drew me to it stevens, i came of age in the era of the 20th century civil rights movement. and was attracted to and participated in it. and when i went to college the black history course among other things title black reconstruction in america. i first learned about thaddeus stevens and the radical republicans. and instantaneously they became heroes of mine. so the opportunity to learn more about stevens and how someone had come to be that

individual. just exactly what role he had played in the unfolding of the events of civil war and reconstruction. the opportunity arose about five or six years ago. >> that is such an interesting point the experiences were thaddeus stevens and charles sumner as two of american democracy. also being influenced civil rights movement is interesting i was told john f. kennedy it's not clear how much he wrote himself or how much of it was ghost written. about stevens and reconstruction when he had to

deal with the desegregation of mississippi. >> so i read the same thing. i wonder if they actually told us the truth? lol dominated sometimes by southern historians there effective part of the war and reconstruction. so, it goes on from there, to be wet the appetite for reading your book. you told us a bit about what attracted you to stevens his commitment, to equal rights. his commitment to black

citizenship. i was just wondering if you would tell us a little bit more about his abolitionist convictions and his vision for the country. became effectively abolitionist decades before the civil war began, in the 1830s pre-by the end of the 1830s he was in important respects affectionately and abolitionist. he had been a delegate in that decade charged with drawing up a new state constitution. and when that constitution bound up explicitly denying the franchise, denying the right to vote if they finished product after having wage an unsuccessful fight to include

black men in the franchise. that's an extreme point of view in the north outside of a handful of doing on states, black men did not vote. or were in the process of being disenfranchised they had been able to vote previously. staking out a position in the 1840s and 1850s because archaeological evidence is office and home was a station in the underground railroad. he acted as a defense attorney but the escape of some slaves from maryland into pennsylvania where the

acclaimed owner of the fugitives chase them down and sought to take them back. and the fugitives resisted arms in hand and killed that went to trial and stevens was a team member of the defense team. and so stevens went from one political party after another in the course of his life. in the mid- 1850s the republican party was born stevens and joined it was one of the individuals struggling to build it in pennsylvania. when it begins stevens is anxious to see this war transformed into the instrument for the abolition of slavery. this respect he differs from abraham lincoln. who is much as lincoln despised slavery and is no doubt he did at least no doubt in my mind, he did not see the

war in that light. the point of view of lincoln, the purpose of the war effort was simply to bring the union back together again as expeditiously and as quickly as possible so that his political party could give back to its self assigned task to gradually and peacefully, and eventually see slavery disintegrate in the states where it already existed. and from lincoln's point of view and in the advice of his more conservative advisors, achieving that goal meant ruffling southern white feathers as possible. that in turn seem to call her so he thought, for interfering with slavery no more than was absolutely necessary.

and so lincoln was slower to take up the cause of abolishing slavery. stevens vigorously disagreed with that point of view. he instead agreed with frederick douglass and other abolitionists that this war should be the instrument for the immediate and uncompensated emancipation is when the very first republicans to say that pretty is also the first republicans to call therefore for confiscating slaves of the rebels, one of the first to call eventually for spreading the abolition movement throughout the united states. for emancipated all slaves in the united states. that includes those who lived in the so-called loyal border states that remained within the union and the confederacy left. so one of the first to call for including black men into

what were then still delete white union armies. he is one of the first to call for giving the emancipated slaves equal civil rights. and in each case argument he made was initially viewed with great skepticism but the majority of his party and in each case both his words and the intrinsic logic of the situation help to bring the majority of his party over to his point of view. he was an extremely effective leader. and of course he struggle continues after the war. >> absolutely. i really like the way in which you lay out stevens convictions. to be an abolitionist, they

occupy a niche for me because i have studied the abolition movement so much. but to be an abolitionist was not just for slavery it was to champion black equality, champion black citizenship and steven seem to have done that consistently throughout his career both in his objections to disenfranchising black men in pennsylvania. also found a letter he had written to garrison the abolitionist, publish the liberator in boston anti- abolitionist and clearly he mentioned his involvement in the underground railroad and his defense of those who assisted the rebels in pennsylvania. he is quite radical in his

conviction. and in a sense these radicals, republicans will really abolitionist and natural politics. and people like stevens and charles sumner and a few others who are not so prominent perhaps as they were during reconstruction, what an adept parliamentarian he was. with his abolitionist conviction and principle, he has these amazing political skills as you point out to move his party to higher ground. so from the non- extension of slavery as most moderate republicans like lincoln stood on, and refused to compromise on that. when can refused to compromise

on the extension of slavery just to get back to the southern states. stevens is talking about abolition rights and manages to move his party from non- extension abolition to black rights is exactly what again evolves to at the end of his life. he is endorsing those positions in the army for black men, giving black men voting rights. people like stevens and sumner and other radicals played an important part as we point out and moving the pendulum. tell us a bit about stevens the parliamentarian. this renewed congressional globe and looking in the ways he thought those reconstruction acts passed. and the way he rallies opposition against andrew

johnson who succeeded lincoln and who was arguably one of the most racist the united states is ever had, tell us a bit about his skill there. this is just before he dies. but if you think of a person who is an architect of reconstruction, it is thaddeus stevens. so if you want to talk a little bit which is really the crowning achievement of his life. >> will thank you. i would be happy to do that. he was just as you say a skillful parliamentarian. by outmaneuvering them. precisely because he knew the rules i knew how she used him.

hayes extremely bright fellow. he had been an active politician for many years he knew his way around the rules. it's important to remember a leader not only with his colleagues in the congress, he became that in large part because he became a leader of the party as a whole. as a number of his colleagues said when he died, most politicians adapt to public opinion. thaddeus stevens preferred to shape public opinion. he did that actively and consciously. he gave speeches that wound up not only in the congressional globe, which was the early version of the congressional

record. he was also reprinted by many northern newspapers with larger circulations in the north. many of the speeches were also reprinted as pamphlets were circulated in some cases by the hundreds and thousands. has mailbox filled up with requests for copies of the speeches so that they could be used to change minds filled up with letters assuring him they would be doing precisely that. so he was doing that towards the end of his life. whether he agrees with the claim often made he is the leader of the house of representatives. he said i leave them, yes but they never come around to my point of view until public opinion swings in my direction. so he was very conscious of not simply being a parliamentary leader, he

understood that political power in a state that claims to be a political democracy ultimately derives from the ability to wield public opinion. he did that with extreme success. that with the most of the issues for which he fought. and just as you say, lincoln came around himself on many of those issues. one of steven's colleagues in the house of representatives from pennsylvania expressed the opinion that if thaddeus stevens had not been pounding away for emancipation from day one and continued to do so, lincoln would not have been able to issue the emancipation proclamation as early as he did. because stephen's work paved the way for doing that.

in the air of reconstruction of course it's a new ballgame. because lincoln is assassinated shortly before the end of the war. and as you would note, andrew johnson ascends to the presidency. very promptly begins using his power to begin restoring the southern elite to political control of the southern states. johnson is not going to go along with restoring slavery per se. but he will not interfere with attempts to try to impose something close to slavery, which is exactly what the southern elite tries to do babe getting in the fall of 1865 when johnson, having brought the states back into participation in the political life in the united states, the newly elected southern legislators include

confederate leaders and the legislatures begin to pass the so-called black codes which strip or deny african americans most of the rights that white americans took for granted in order to keep them in a position of subordination keep them as cheap malleable labor force. thaddeus stevens fights against that attempt, helps to lead his party in the struggle against the black code, rights on the contrary given equal political rights and should say equal civil rights right away to african americans. i'm before very long the right to vote and hold office as well. in trying to do all of that of course he collides with andrew johnson. and as andrew johnson tries

use his political power in the white house to foil the attempt to get african americans their right, stevens becomes one of the active advocates of his impeachment. and pushes hard for the impeachment but does occur in the house of representatives. because becomes one of the houses and managers in the senate i'm bringing johnson to trial. they come within reach of removing johnson from office. it is only because a handful of so-called moderate republicans refuse to go along that johnson escapes condemnation and manages to serve out the rest of his term. nonetheless, stevens continues the struggle. pushes through legal provisions granting equal

rights, equal civil rights. and then demands that voting rights as well be extended to african-american men. by the time he dies though, that does not pass. does not even find its way into the 1864 republican platform which stevens finds astounding in which he denounces. but before very long the republican party after stephen's death does change as point of view. does it change position, introduces the 15th amendment whose purpose is to grant the right to vote to black people. even in death stevens is pointing the way forward for his party. >> absolutely. i think you show beautifully in this book to black voting

rights in black suffrage is way ahead of most members of his party part of the commitment to black civil rights. what is so interesting is how he really creates the structure for reconstruction by refusing to see those states who try to gain real admittance which taking them back to a state of slavery as soon as possible and was approved by andrew johnson really opposed the civil rights act easy most modest rights that were being given to formerly enslaved people. i just enjoyed the way stevens was able to push through those

reconstruction acts it makes a black mail suffrage a condition for the readmission of southern states into the union. really makes it preconstruction parade you are right, eventually they do succeed with black mail citizenship. with civil rights. in passing those amazing amendments and laws that create national citizenship, natural birthright citizenship and voting rights for black men. there's something more interesting about stevens that even those achievements. and that is his struggle to get months african americans. again, he is way ahead of his contemporaries besides abolitionists and african-americans. it a handful of radical

republicans who are advocating for the land we can do two things at once. we can break up the former stakeholders and create black and white in the south that would uphold democracy would act as a payment for generations of unpaid labor. many people end up calling him the american the great commoner, all these words for him. the most radical abolitionist office time not just to political rights but social justice. >> of course, he does not

invent the idea as you note. of redistributing the land the enslaved population of the south is struggling to lay hands on that land themselves. the land that they had worked, the land that they had made profitable. the land that had been purchased with profits made through their labor. and even during the war they began to cultivate the land toward their own benefit that had previously belonged to slave owners who fled before the advance of union armies. so thaddeus stevens is taking his cue from the african americans themselves. and he argues that not only is it essential to deprive the old elite of control of such vast quantities of the most

land in the south and thereby undermined their economic and indirectly political powers in the south. but as you say also take that land and give it to those whose labor had made it profitable. and also, this is not only will this make for morbid society as a society he says made up simply of nabobs and serves can never be a democratic society. can never support democratic institutions. but also he's believe since youth that was the doctrine was taught to him. that the best citizens and the only reliable citizens are those who are economically independent, who do not have to work for

others. because if they have to work for others according to this republicans small ideology, their word for others will make them vulnerable to the economic black mail of others who will be to use their subordinate economic position to compel them to vote as employers wish them to vote. he also redoubled his efforts to make them economic independent to that kind of pressure it's worth noting to put it mildly that while stevens has by that point proven himself time and time again to his republican colleagues in congress as

someone whose ideas, no matter how extreme they may seem at first, prove themselves to be necessary might be the line they will not tamper with the private property rights of landholders in times of peace. and so, his goal of redistributing that land is foiled. >> absolutely pray think you are right to point to his own republican convictions and political virtue and economic independence. not having great inequalities in a democratic society. i think part of it comes from his own heart scrabble. in vermont, abolitionists had this from new england to people like john brown,

thaddeus stevens, i actually appreciate the fact that you did not use stephen's conviction to some imagined relationship he may or may not have had with his housekeeper, we have no proof for that. the fact you create this portrait of a very principled conviction about equality and principal conviction about democracy and republican governments. i think that what make the books of has to be my favorite american-statesman the questions coming and we do not the first question has calm

here is somewhat controversial involvement with the know nothing party. before that the anti- mason party. and to point out especially after the second party system, there are many antislavery politicians who have no political harlem during the republican party but it's one if you like to answer that first gets wrapped up with what looks in retrospect to most people including many historians as a kind of crank outfit the anti- mason part, a party dedicated to basically combating the order of masons. which order still exist today of course. and, if you look at the masons today it seems impossible to understand how a political

party could come to be dedicated this offensive fraternal organization the masons were a kind of a different organization it was a secret organization whose members pledge secretly to support one another above all others in all walks of life, economic, political and so on. two people who firmly believed in political democracy and feared the undermining of that democracy by secret conspiracies, this could only appear a dangerous kind of organization. an stephen's home state of vermont was acutely aware of

the need to combat secret organizations. and so were the baptists to which his family was also affiliated, an organization that had suffered religious and political persecution. and that also feared secrecy in government. so this odd looking organization and fact attracted a large number of people who would eventually become republicans as well as radical republicans because of their commitment to democracy. they know nothing party was a horse of a different color. just as you say, no nothing party comes into being in the early 1850s. no nothing party is not it's official in the official name is of course the american party. it is an anti- immigrant party. its goal is to deprive immigrants of the right to vote or at least to make them

wait 21 years after they are naturalized before they can cast a vote. now thaddeus stevens never became a loud, prominent advocate of deprivation of immigrant rights. but he did evidentially join with them in order to boost his own political support. southern pennsylvania was a part of the country where nativism was very strong. in stevens for a long time seem to see no problem with trying to collaborate with nativists in order to advance his other agenda goals. it is not until 1860 were stevens seems to have a change of heart. when the republican party in 1860 finally adds to its platform, provisions opposing

nativism and opposing denying equal rights to immigrants, stevens says nothing and protest. even as he says, i noticed a large number of immigrants are opposed to slavery. and so that fact, that was especially true of scandinavians and german speaking immigrants, seems to play a role in his abandonment of nativism. meanwhile, stevens also championed the cause of chinese immigrants in california who are being persecuted by the political establishment they are only by the political establishment, that establishment includes california republicans. and steven takes on one of their public is on the floor of the house and denounces california for its missed treatment of those chinese

immigrants. and so, we see on this issue to stephen's commitment to democracy expanding, strengthening, and coming to touch more and more issues. just as it had led him earlier to endorse women's suffrage. >> absolutely i agree with you sis is motivating political principles antislavery is not nativism. you see that amongst others like henry wilson and in massachusetts where many antislavery politicians joined a know nothing party that was created with the collapse of the party but eventually it could go to the republican party and have nothing to do with nativism particularly because of the german immigrants they did such an important part of the republican coalition. so yes i find that a really convincing answer. there's another question here were running out of time quite a few more questions here.

about whether stephen's continued attempt to impede johnson was motivated by some legend. think stevens threat to democracy. if you read his correspondence and what you have written about him, to me that seems far more motivating the southern apologists made up about him. >> absolutely. i think it's clear that stevens is not approach the subject of impeachment out of a spirit of personal revenge. or even personal punishment for johnson. he said the purpose of impeachment is to deal with misconduct in office and to prevent future misconduct. he sees johnson accurately as the principal obstacle to the completion of what he regards as a necessary revolution in

american life. it is on that basis and for that purpose that he seeks to remove johnson so that congress can do what needs to be done. rather than inflict some sort of punishment on evildoer. back absolutely. you know, i think stevens with johnson as a traitor was actually quite accurate. it was precisely what johnson was doing in terms of undoing reconstruction. that is why he adds the bigger article on impeachment that johnson was actually against reconstruction of that. that was a traitorous act on his part. there are some other questions here about stephen's contact with african-american leaders at that time. in my own research i found

charles sumner had contact with the black community because he was involved with abolition and abolitionist just like stevens, always interesting was yes he had contacted some prominent african-americans he also a lot of contact with several white unionists if you could elaborate on his contact with black people also southern unionists. speak the context i came across with the black leaders are mostly local for the purpose of protecting free blacks in the north and those who had escaped from the south into the north. so he was actively involved in pennsylvania, and keeping track of slaveholders. and informing african-americans of what those slaveholders were doing hand the slave chasers were

doing advising the fugitives how to best protect themselves. during the civil war, he became a recipient of many letters, just as you say from loyal whites and the confederacy both during and after the civil war especially after the civil war of course when correspondence was much more possible. advising him what was taking place in of the persecution both of african-americans there and that small minority of loyal whites which minority was not so small and certain pockets of the south. stevens was the recipient of an outside number of letters precisely from that segment of the southern population. >> absolutely he always makes a distinguished difference.

and the traders, the slavers the confederates your answer there is really i think holds up really well. we unfortunately do not have the time that we want him there are lots of questions here i apologize to her audience we could not get to. the fact that stephen's reputation has in fact been rescued and in the bookstore right movements make sense because finally, it's only the civil rights movement that his vision offer interracial democracy and eat black citizenship is eventually realized it at how shows how his program of reconstruction was then how important his commitment to black equality is to tell the full story of american democracy. but thank you bruce so much for if you would hold up your

book, at this point i would really recommend this released her audience it is a brilliant book of modern biography of the great thaddeus stevens long overview done by one of our most perceptive civil war historians. >> on that note i am afraid do have to wrap up our program part i wish we had more time certainly i would recommend that her audience is especially those questions we could not answer that you will go out and purchase a copy of bruce levine's wonderful new biography of thaddeus stevens, thank you. >> thank you everyone. >> thank you for being with us.

the >> book tv on cspan2 every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for book tv comes from these television companies who support cspan2 as a public service. >> harrison programs to look out for tonight on book tv. televisions for serious readers. historian george nash talks about the past and future of conservatism in the united states. sas discussed issues of race and identity as an asian american in america. at our weekly author interview program "after words" the "washington post" joby work reports on america's effort to destroy chemical weapons in syria during its civil war. five. information online @booktv. or consult your program guide. >> here's a look at some publishing industry news. asian american and pacific

islander authors and other members of the book industry of launching social media initiative to bring attention to violence perpetrated against members of their community. the effort # stand up for api, ask supporters to post books by pacific islander authors and it made an impact on them and to contact their local libraries and book publishers to inquire about making more titles by api authors available. a children's book about the life of dr. anthony fauci will be released this summer by simon & schuster. the biography written by kate messner and illustrated by alexander by fellows anthony from his brooklyn beginnings through medical school. in this challenging role working with seven u.s. presidents to tackle some of the biggest public health challenges of the past 50 years. in other news mary and harris founder of the children's literature magazine cricket has died at the age of 93. the magazine started in 1973 included contributions from the likes of john updike,

nikki giovanni and charles schultz. who is often referred to as the new yorker for kids. let a book bar by the queens public library in new york had been returned 63 years after its due date. the book, a collection of stories about paul bunyan was checked out by betty diamond in 1957 and recently returned along with a 500-dollar donation to the library. now 74 and a literature professor in wisconsin said that the book traveled with her throughout her life in academic career and that it was time to make amends. book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. you can also watch all of our past anytime booktv.org. >> it is my pleasure to welcome carl zimmer the weekly column is for near times and author of life's edge the search for what it means to be live. carl is a deeply respected science journalist on us when numerous rewards including the american association for the