you someone that hasn't at some point in their lives and acted on it. it is a hard truth of the male achievement in our age that that is still happening. so, that to me made the story so modern. they would recognize a lot of especially what women in the medical field still go through, trying to either be one of the boys or something different. ..

history, to will be dropping supplementy resources, know that chat will stay up after the event. it will be here for you to see later. if you have a question for the panel, put them in the ask the question box at the bottom center of your screen. if you see a question that you like someone else asked you cup load it. -- you can up load it. as 45-year-old radical independent feminist bookstore in the south is brings a lot when you buy them directly from us. now, our guest. mickey kindle, a "new york times" best selling writer, speaker, blogger, appeared in "washington post," "boston globe," guardian, in addition to

her feminism she is author of amazon's activist, a graphic history of women fight figure their rights. coeditor of hidden youth. she lives in chicago with her family. in our conversation with her. we have joe lisa. a mother, writer, about critical theories of race, gender, class, sexuality and disability. director of community engagement engagefeminist women health cen. for. across the work in classroom, her focus has been on ways that systems of oppression and their

daily work has been within communities. welcome mickey kendle and joe-lisa c jackson. >> thank you for having us. >> thank you for being here. i have been telling everyone all week there is a bp locking for to this conversation, because as i was looking through the text, i felt each chapter i had my open narrative or story that was in alignment with a story you told. thank you for being so vulnerable with this piece. i think it was a pathway for those of us who had similar experiences to connect with you to connect. i want to start off by making sure we have a shared understanding for folks here who

may not have yet gotten the book. i'm sure they plan to or will to. how do you define hood feminism. and why did you believe that there was a necessity for a term. >> i defined live day-to-day work that you see a lot of women go unrecognized. by women, not just saying. -- they are doing a lot of work in community. that then is not seen as feminist. and not recognized in anyway to be honest. that might be to have about what they need. that might be around housing or -- medical care. policing. and i was one of those girls, i

think they call us hot cheeto girls. and the thing was, everyone rushed to tell girls like us what we couldn't do. don't get pregnant. you did not hear a lot of people but for those same under appreciated women and caregivers. for a lot of things, at first, it felt like it was not at all, we were a problem to be solved, a situation to address. and then i get to a points, i am in college, we're talking, about sexual harassment cases.

and there is a girl, a white girl who keeps talks about how why black woman. >> would say it, and might not have -- she kept saying she was a feminist. meanwhile, i am a single parent. i am a veteran at that point. living in an apartment. and all this is going on. the problem is the people who are using it. and how they use it. and i didn't identify with it. i described myself as occasional feminist there were parts that s --parts that i agree with. and big chunks like, how to be a

ceo that is nice but how those who are cannot find a place to eat or lay there are head to sleep at night. i didn't think this back could happen. i had to hash tag a tub el coupe things happened. -- they came out of that, and when i was target of a bunch of i think it was not feminist, main stream feminists it was the daughter of so and so's mom. had an apartment, hey, if you

need anything let us know. >> right. >> and it was such a different thing to have people offering shelters, food, versus what i was getting. we would love if you could speak at the rally and testify in congress. and want you to do this other public work. because that is what we -- easy to end up a martyr. whether you ever intended to be one, it not easy to survive. >> right. for black women. and for black poor women. so, i really liked about your book was that you made sure to

pay attention to even the women who are left out of feminist by dialogue that claims to center women that have a marginal aized identity. we are along close lines, folks are geographically located and threats they might face just as a matter of fact of where they live, which block they i believe live oi believe -- think that you make it more clear that an issue in my brain as a black feminist, i say, of course, gun violence is a feminist issue, right? but this is like a novel idea for mainstream feminists you say in your text, you proclaim that chicago gun violence is america's problem. what do you mean by that. >> i will tell people, america

actually has more guns than people, not by a small margin. is might be 75 million. it always goes up it never goes down. we're closing in on 400 million guns. until the pandemic. daily, sometime several time thes a day we had mass shootings in america. you saw on tv was chicago gun violent. i'm not going to say chicago does not have gun violence, we do. but our death rate were not as high as a dozen other cities, i know, that. what we are having, cartel,

gang, police brutality. in chicago, relatively speaking it could be worse, i was living in chicago when it was worse. you have parts of colorado or wisconsin or california, or texas, you go, you look at paper, how we classify as a mass shooting, means if two people got shot it is not a mass shoot, but they may have intended to shoot, we also think this it normal like the weather, today's risk of shooting at malls are. so tomorrow's risk of shooting at schools, now. we talk about covid, and young people. and their altitude around -- at attitude, around covid. we told a generation, several of children, the risk of it, we

taught them, death was possible. and they should go about their lives, we saw what about. you know, america, loved guns, more than it loves children. it loves safety. more than it loves freedom. more than it loves anything else. currently people who brought bombs and guns to congress to kill congressmen, people are still trying to say don't take my guns away. no one is, but you keep proving that someone some consider it. >> right, true. you list gun violence a public health issue as well, and it

should be seen as a feminist issue. what in particular about gun violence makes it feminist? >> so, but that violence in this way, we're talking about assault, even about police brutality. women, are not safe from gun violent. , they we have no shortage of stories, a 12-year-old girl in her bed, breonna taylor in her house. 90-year-old grand mothers in their home. and your risk of dying.

if a gun is present, you are more than likely to see anyone die. yet. we will then say, well yes, women are dying at the hands of their partners, grandmothers, children, girl children are agreed to go to school, but, that is a problem for somewhere else, for someone else. those are all supposed to be people the feminist movement cares about. feminism will turn to. to support, where is that. solidarity cannot be a one way street, where is it. >> right. >> i'm here. >> okay, i think i got frozen, thank you for making it more clear for folks.

i think -- i work at a while clinic. -- health clinic. it is an independent abroargze n provider. we think about how it was originally conceived by the founding mothers, we call them, one thing that set that framework aside from the reoproo >> a more comprehensive way, they set up to capture what their priorities were for the term, as well as the movement,

first was right to have a child. second was right to not have a child. options for ending any unwanted pregnancies, third right to raise our children and a healthy and sustainable environment without fear or threat of violent from the state or individuals, this is the tenant that is not spoken about. very often. but, it is really important. because, it considers other aspects of vie violence. a threat to our reproductive health or considering oppression. so, as i was reading your book, i am going through the issues, inter connected. you did a good job of highlights issues of gun violence is

related to issues of patriarchy to the issues of sexual violence, so i think it is important tor feminist movement at large to think 'our issues that are inter connected. i appreciate that. i wanted to talk about hedger and housing -- hunger and housing, huge chapters from your text to spoke to me. a lot of your lived experienced mirrored many of mine, i too had a child young, i was a single parent in college. and had to navigate social services to take care of myself and my child. and came up to weird restrictions that did not make logical sense for the programs are proclaiming to be there for, having a real hands on struggle in that system. i appreciate you lift thawpg. lifting thatup.

in sections of hunger and house, this were themes could, one was theme of a criminalization of pofty. i want -- of poverty, talk about criminalization as a feminist issue. and reverbing as of criminalization a feminist issue. >> one thing, we see more of this. i will use her ex, called and reported she left orchids in a hotel -- her kids in a hotel room. my first thought, if you had time to call police, you have time to go pick up your kids. and she is living in a hotel tells me she is already in a not so great situation. may have left that person because of abuse.

everyone kept saying why didn't she have, a baby sitter, there was a pandemic. i don't know what baby sitters charge. but she got arrested, charged. she might lose your children. she is one of dozens we see make mundane choices. whether it sense rolling your child in a school outside of your district. she is a job interview, she brought her mother with her, they put the child in another table, saying it was adan abandonment. there are all kinds of stories. to people who are poor, we say,

you should do everything you can to get out of poverty, and we punish you for doing what you can. my kids were little, i had a neighbor. i would go outside. because of small children, the area, a neighbor told me, watch out for miss so and so, her favorite thing to call child services on people. what do you mean. i lived across the street from her. sometimes i would stand outside. and she said has done it twice that i know of. why? these are not kids they not

beaten, she said i don't know. i had that conversation with her before, i have no idea, she is a busy body. okay, fine. i'll remember that. so. one day, woman she was talking about is talking to me, she hints around at it. she said something that, how old do you think my kids are, i answered her, you could see the disappointment. mind you, we should not -- this thisand i'm going outside.

>> i need a break. >> right. >> because my oldests was already. you have preteens. >> mm-hmm. >> so i'm thinking about this. i had other brushes with that kind of thing. i have been luck bethat. in sense that i could talk good and i can fend my way out of. you know. we're seeing people who are poor have to figure out child care or whatever. and people saying well, you should have someone watch the kids. we don't have anyone to watch the kids, any a mom who was in foster care, she got called in for a shift. her relief didn't show up, whatever.

they have gutted the programs. they have criminalized poverty in such way they, i have seen with you can't leave your kids in the car when you run into the store. at some point do we talk about someone who is by herself. and she does not want to be arrested to go to store for you to call because the kid having a fit. we admit we don't think that poor people should have children. we'll judge them and criminal my weird example. people are being punished for feeding the kids soda or whatever. you have to pick your poison.

we tell poor people. and you better make the right choice, if you pick the young 1e we'll punish you and if you pick the other one, we'll punish you. >> i remember that story, i'm on twitter, people were posting it, saying wild things. and i remember thinking, i think that oldest child was 10. i remember i was oldest child of 4. my mom worked long shifts in the hospital, if there was not a baby sitter, i was 10, i had an infant brother, i had a brother a couple years young or. i had to baby sit them, that is what you talk about in the book, we leave poor people with impossible decisions, between what? houselessness and feeding your

child. ability to feed your child. >> health insurance. >> right, right, it is just. it is we leave folks wim possible decisions, and we criminalize and shame them for making those decisions they made under the conditions they were living in, you made it clear in your text. so i think that in cop context e trees poverty, -- we address property within tell feminism. where should the conversation begin. >> i say, a universal basin income. we could put without --

whatever. but, what we're spending to incarcerate to have child protective services. not to say let the people who are mistreating their kids off the hook, a lot of kids end up in foster care, because of parents who just don't have resources. what we're spending in most backwards way could go to supporting families. i know there is a -- to me, i would say 3 grand a month. and the reason i say that, is that we want people to stay home, or to be able to go home with kids or sec or whatever. -- sick or whatever, we know a lot of people who work as dep -- essential workers.

someone you pay not enough money. you should look at a basic income. you should look at feminism for everyone to be housed. there are ghost buildings in many cities. we put up luxury condo buildings. money laundrying. that is what they are for. there is a place like 8 grand a month that open up in chicago, a three bedroom.

are yeah. >> so, this is the thing. we have no reason for people to go without resources. we have people your bootstraps will lift you up. what we could do, feminism, the push for candidates, you know. we could make sure that the people who have the least, have access to support. this is not asking as much money as we're spending. we could reduce number of people in jail, if we made it possible.

>> right. >> we talk about people who are on welfare. because you can't buy toilet paper with food stamps. people want to judge. they were buying 37 bottles of liquor and cigarettes. on 5-dollars a day per person, no. >> that does not add up. >> your math does not add up. >> i think that is a good point that you bring up. and on housing tip in atlanta,

we're seeing record gentrification. i live in southwest atlanta in neighborhood of pittsburgh, founded as the black mecca. it is gentrified. housing costs are going up. people who have been here for decades are pushed out of their neighborhoods, you have a housing crisis layered on with atlanta having the highest rate of income inequality, right. ... the aspect around

housing is something that is relevant to folks today and it's interesting and i agree with the fact it isn't very neatly immedy situated as a feminist issue. organizations that focus on housing rights but i think both have a hard time. what has been helpful to you to think about not running the same but definitely issues that inform each other. >> it's foundational to everything and.

we've already established [inaudible] what happens is headed by a single woman of a wrong race or monetized or for disability reasons whatever, how accessible is that housing in general i don't need a mobility and there are places seen coming here and you have those conversations and realize they are locked out of these places in advance.

you can punish women and their families who earn less and so on so it's never not an issue it is just a question of whether they had ever been worried about their own housing. a. >> we are not the same.[inaudib]

the way people engage young people by assuming they are young and don't necessarily have responsibilities, like dismissing or ignoring the fact some young people have to contribute to household utility bills and some are maintaining a household. i certainly was. the assumption that dismisses some of these tangible material experiences of poverty and how it impacts a young person's experience of their youth and like who is allowed their innocence and youth it's sort of pushed along at a rapid pace

because of who they are. we have a question here that brittany wanted to ask. we are about to focus on women's history next month. what is something you wish your third grade teacher told you or supported you with as a little girl. we talk about rights, racism [inaudible] my parents cheered [inaudible] >> one of the things i wish i had -- she made a point of showing us black women who did things that were not just the civil rights movement. she wanted us to know about all these other people and for me i

wish in third grade [inaudible] disappeared and reappeared in times of civil rights. she made a point of teaching us some of the history before slavery and the civil rights movement we got to see a lot of pictures of colored women. i feel a lot of times women of

color do bring in. it doesn't mean it's not cool to fight the good fight but there's a lot of women in history -- you can take a look at the ideas but it's getting to see women are always important and women who look like me and who were every variety of color. there's this whole fate. the coolest thing.

i was left out like why didn't he will tell me this. when i mentioned it for the first time to someone to see all the things and all these people parenting while marginalized and i think as you mentioned going

beyond affirming the creativity and exploration and experimentation and may be you will change your mind and whatever you decide will be right for you. can you talk a little bit about what made you feel like it needed to be included in this collection? >> one of the things we had this sort of -- i didn't know that i wasn't supposed to know so they were more interested in people

that were not heterosexual. i didn't know it was a secret. i thought there would be more of a reaction when i tell you that you are my child, that's it. taking your life in their hands. some people were not interventionists.

most of the struggles but it was other people. one of the people at the daycare talked to a friend that was a nurse will. [inaudible] my identity made some of that more difficult and i started writing it and some of these

things got a little easier because a lawyer. they are not doing enough and they are not doing well. even if it doesn't exist. i've got a problem. that child, 19 hours of labor. you know. [laughter]

don't play with me. people think i play about my kids. i don't. i mean, it. people will try to plan and say why couldn't you figure out how to navigate these three dozen obstacles that look like what i think parenting should look like. i still have to deal with karen's, becky's, whatever.

you will see them judging. [inaudible] you don't have to be so aggressive. >> she saved her daughter's life. but because of that conversation, i wanted to include [inaudible]

i think something technological happened. there's a question on the chat around if you could speak to the genealogy over time and that connection to labor. we have as a culture been taught repeatedly they serve everyone that black women. at any time, anyway and we say that's not true, kind of. then people will be ascended

historically generationally whether we are talking about slavery or after slavery with black women being assaulted as a prime example of this. to the idea for emotional or other labor now the idea if they'vedone their hair or makeur whatever she didn't want strangers calling her fit.

i couldn't figure out why they were so bothered and couldn't handle all of this other with places that it spills over into. what we are seeing is people who don't believe black women should have that or shouldn't be able to say no and black women should serve and also not make them feel guilty. we have a lot of listen to black woman. i thought what is happening.

she got off the phone and said some things i'm not going to repeat like i can swing for you. all of these very strange things and then had the nerve to thrive as somehow a perfect person that i watched someone blamed beyoncé's traffic costumes for trafficking. i can't explain how we got from.

i read the article. >> and honestly there are a lot of critiques but that isn't one of them. >> it doesn't sound like it's one of them. >> the other thing that i'm thinking about is one of the things i've advocated for under the justice framework is the right to bodily autonomy, the right to make decisions is something that we view as a basic human right that also should have been no matter where they are in the world. and then we saw these abortion bands. here in georgia a number of

organizations abortion is still legal in the state of georgia but you talk a little bit about it in the book you describe it as a life-saving procedure for you and i was wondering if you're comfortable to give more on your thoughts about what you went through in the aftermath and how that connected to how we think about it to believe and

care about life when they say something about being able to support and feed the children and believe that victims of sexual assault and other things should be protected and have that conversation before you send an e-mail please understand this is the present version. the other version you don't want near. there've been a couple. in those cases to try to get ahead [inaudible] with the last pregnancy, i knew pretty early that something was

amiss and i had gone to the doctor and they gave me a heads up there was a hemorrhage. i still don't know the reason. i never heard an explanation. she got out of her bed and called in her team. two bags of blood, emergency midnight surgery, the whole thing. it was a very dramatic experience.

fundamentally in the er they said this isn't a viable race. not to be too graphic but [inaudible] for the way that people talk about reproductive justice people say you could have, should have, would have, i had to living children to be there for. i needed to stay here for my other child. the options were never on the table.

it was save me or don't save me. the baby sometimes survives, not always but the women are sacrificed because we can't think of a black woman as having value. i got lucky. i couldn't figure out. you know what her daughter looked like, me. a white doctor with a black daughter. [inaudible] her daughter walked in and we had the same hair. >> she encouraged me because we

both knew what had happened. we couldn't prove it, but we both knew what had happened because i was there for six hours with no pain meds. but it was a white doctor with a black daughter that came so when we are talking about these things and the people that were angry at me after. but when they say they were concerned, whoever stands in front the way i made up because

i've seen some of the things, i've meant with a woman that had a procedure years ago and the guy she was running from cried about having this procedure and all these things. but he beat her regularly. he put a cigarette out on her. she was doing the best possible thing she could. i think sometimes people look at abortion as [inaudible]

you don't know whether there've been abuses going on, concerns going on. you don't even know what conversations with the doctor. it could be blood pressure, any number of things. and in my case, after all of that was over, a partial hysterectomy. when they had the hysterectomy and examined the lining of my uterus, i had cancer cells so that pregnancy would have been a bad thing. i feel like people are not clear on the fact that abortion is

medicine. you don't know why someone might need an abortion like someone might need a kidney transplant. >> that's something we were trying to get with people, and outreach like think about abortion as it relates to health care. it's very much included in it. your story is very powerful because in your case if you are not able to access that procedure, it could have resulted in you losing your life. abortion is a life-saving procedure, they say no it's not

and i said it is a life-saving procedure. often i think that is the thing that people don't know. >> watching my kids discover is the funniest thing to me and i have 6-foot tall children and [inaudible] the little people become big people and you get to make a whole person and they go forth and they do things with their

own brain. things may be you wouldn't even do. i have an 8-year-old and i would have taken that in a very different direction. but that is fascinating. brilliant masterpieces. they have interests and like nobody tells you before parenthood that they will become fully fledged people. they will come up with ideas you never did. and then it's like i did this. it's kind of cool. >> we have a question that says

who are some of the black feminists that you look to? [inaudible] she will be mad because i'm about to talk about this. it's always something. i look to the people like that. alice walker to some degree. to some degree beyoncé because i think there's something great about this in the public eye.

i have a lot of respect for the ones we see and that we don't see. i have a friend that is a journalist in chicago and one of your people [inaudible] a lot that i'm thinking of do things that are pretty mundane and not in the sense that they are not doing important things but the work they are doing with their neighborhoods and it's the stuff that we expect.

it gets easier to do certain things organized so that you have a good response. i think a lot about mutual aid

and all of what is happening in the way that we move together. >> i'm really appreciating that you are lifting that up because it makes me think about angela davis' essay about black women's roles where she talks about black women everyday activities. it's what sustained the community that devalued labor is not always appreciated and i'm glad you talk about the

different role family members play. it kind of reminds me of my own. we went to my grandmother's house and my mother had a childd care at the house because that's how she was able to go to school, go to work thinking about mundane things that seem simple for better access in the fundamental things that we need to live and survive and i think that you eloquently leave your personal stories that love that is at the center of the

feminism. it's funny because even now i was a senior in high school [inaudible] i was talking to her and i got

the fastest correction humanly possible. at the time i said okay fine it will make you happy. really i was thinking please don't kill me. but it turned out over and over again sometimes i talk to the

workforce and that is still true. it's important knowledge. it's life-saving knowledge she [inaudible] in my 40s looking at retirement stocks and my grandmother was over and over again. women who didn't have that kind of advice as we are getting into

things we don't have the funds to hire because we did the traditional route. they start working in some cases. it turned into a whole 300,000 but the stories that came back out of that was going to be. >> i wasn't expecting that. >> right. she was talking about the neighbors and all that but i

think a lot about other things like that. but when our kids leave our communities, these are the skills and respectability when you have to deal with the world in front of you to make the world you want to see those skills sometimes come from the women who are just part of the fabric, just the people who show up every day. [inaudible] she was always upfront about it

and educating people about her life and transition and all these things and it wasn't in the way that you would think. i remember her saying very casually one day, trying to remember how she phrased it but basically we are all in this together. we are all women facing different things. people are hung up on things that fundamentally has nothing to do with survival. i think a lot about how our communities, wherever you fall on the spectrum of communities we're facing fascism andstill wt

things [inaudible] about the way that as we grow and change black communities in particular and the same is true when we talk about violence and immigration conversations, indigenous rights. the only way we all get out of this is if we are working together towards that liberation because the kicker [inaudible]

mississippi just showed us what happens to white people. if you think you are not in this you are wrong. they will give you a power bill that costs more than your house. >> i think the way that you've written it out kind of highlights all those things so when you talk about the issue of patriarchy though the issue may not be the same as it is in the feminist movement because necessarily our relationship to

the men in our lives are very different than the relationships women have and the role and the relationship between patriarchy and violence and sometimes it is by the state. >> i think a lot about the times that the hangouts, a lot of it on the street versus [inaudible]

and i think when we talk about that, there's an idea that somehow the patriarchy has all the power. men don't have access to that power. it doesn't mean they can't do harm. just we are facing this nation where the pressure from outside of the community is making things more inside of the community and i think that should be the diversion that does fall for the community looking at who is talking to the youth and what they are talking

about and what the message is bringing because again it is easier to see a future for yourself as opposed to talking about what you shouldn't do. so there's all of that and then we start to see the violence and they don't seem quite yet to know why. no one tells them they don't deserve what they want every time they want it. they are told they deserve it all and the ones that cannot compete for whatever reason, they don't have any coping skills.

as we saw with the trials and others, white women were standing there sacrificing their children. >> she has a women for cavanaugh shirt on and it brings us back to that conversation of even feminism is not a identity marker. i need you to give more. that isn't enough information for me. i need to know a little bit more about what you believe and how you are thinking about the issue. what issues do you believe should be raised up or made a priority and then how does your position in form what you think is a priority?

so i like how you kind of tease that out and talk about a form of feminism that is anti-black or that causes irreversible harm not just to individual black folks but also black communities when they have members of the communities removed or disappeared so i think that makes it even more timely to say as a call to action there is more to be done and the analysis that is currently dominating the mainstream movement is underdeveloped and enforces the needs of all people of what is necessary so i am curious who is this book for, who needs to be engaging with this?

>> first and foremost i think sometimes we get frustrated because there's [inaudible] then when i talk about how some really do, they would stop doing harm, i would like them to read it. the thing is though [inaudible] >> the ministry there's kind of

a spectrum here. i think that they will come to this book and come away from it before they are ready to hear me. there will be someone who says more than me. i understand all of the arguments. >> i'm not there yet. i am the kind of person that

thinks [inaudible] and do things like gouge out eyes -- very specific. >> incredibly specific. i think it has to do more because it does have access power and not that this book is for white feminists but it's too direct and also for the girl who likes to listen to books while she works, the girl who is all

of us. you don't get to where i am without all of those folks. >> i think that is something that i really appreciated about it. constantly having my head in some theory, your book was a book of fresh air because i could see myself reading it, i could see my mom reading it, my cousins reading it. shout out to them if they are in this podcast right now. >> it's a lot of people. i feel like this has been a great conversation. i will probably get my mom a

copy. yeah, i feel like it is for everybody. it's in a way that i appreciate because you make some really complex things like functions of structure in our lives but you also leave in your personal experiences in a way that the reader sees themselves reflected in it. and thank you for being in conversation. >> thank you. if you leave me your address i will send you a signed copy. >> i got you. [inaudible] >> it's been a great hour and a half. this is incredible. thank you so much. i just want to remind everyone this conversation is recorded

and i will go back and watch it again so i can take notes. thank you for an amazing conversation and for the great resources. please remember the resources will be there. you can come back to the chat and take notes. we are a feminist bookstore and this book is pro- feminism. and the nonprofit we are primarily supported by individuals like you. if you enjoyed tonight's event, make a contribution of any amount to support the work building in the south. thank you. good night.

>> former senator harry reid's deputy chief of staff argued for modernizing the u.s. senate that would include changes to the filibuster. here is a portion of the conversation. >> to fix the senate, you have to make it a place bills can pass again. there's a lot of different approaches to the form. i would be open to different ways to do this but fundamentally you have to get to a place where it only takes a majority to pass a bill. that could be something that is arrived at after talking filibuster. in fact, lowering it to the majority would probably revive the talking filibuster. i have no problem with that

personally. it is supposed to be a place that senator's debate and argue their case and i think it would be great to revive that and have senators go to the floor and explain why they are filibustering. that's the thing about the filibuster is they send people to make the phone call and they never have to explain themselves if they don't want to. under current rules i think that the fundamental thing is we have to focus in on what is the fundamental purpose of the senate. the rules exist to serve some purpose and it is a chamber that is supposed to be the place that generates thoughtful policy solutions to the places we face as a country. it isn't designed to filibuster or to do any secondary thing. it's designed to produce thoughtful policy outcomes and once it is ruled it no longer serves that purpose it is time to be reformed. as we talked about here for most of the history was a majority

ruled party. one of the dynamics i think is underappreciated is that once a bill demonstrates that it has a majority to pass and is going to pass, a lot of people come off the sidelines and start negotiating. that is what happened with the bill in the 1840s and with the bush tax cuts in 2011 when democrats filibustered it and this was done under reconciliation so they only needed a majority but once it was clear that the bill had the majority, they jumped on board and it was up to 63. once you have the trains leaving the station legislatively and gears turning, you have the potential to revive the action but you have to have action. you have to take the option off the table to simply sit on their hands and block the majority to make them look bad. getting back to the framers for

the second, they explained that this is what they feared and why they wanted the senate to be the majority ruled body. they feared the minority having the temptation to just by obstructing block the majority from acting. political scientists have written books and papers about how we live in a polarized environment and how the political environment is dominated by negative partisanship which is the phenomenon that you succeed by making others try to fail. they drive senators to want to oppose anything the majority does. we have to remove that blockage. i think what you will see his bills start passing again. i want to be clear i don't think you should do this to empower leadership. it's to be done in concert with other reforms preferably that make it easier for the rank and file senators to bring bills to the floor.

i think that you know, the goal is to return the senate floor to a place where there is an open free-flowing debate that's unpredictable, you don't know who's going to get a vote on what, but that is a good thing. let's restore the debate to the senate and make it a place that is capable of passing bills and responding to the policy challenges we face today which are substantial. >> to watch the rest visit the website, click on the afterwards smack tab to find this and all past episodes.

and now on booktv afterwards max program, joby warrick of the "washington post" discusses america's efforts to destroy chemical weapons in syria during its civil war. interviewed by georgetown university professor author angela stent. >> host: welcome, everyone to what will be a fascinating and probably disturbing conversation. joby warrick is the "washington post" national security correspondent and a two-time pulitzer prize winner, o f