>> you're waving booktv on cbs c-span2, you can also following along behind scenes on social media at booktv on twitter, instagram and facebook. >> prescott from georgia public broadcasting, and i'm welcoming you to this virtual author talk event from the atlanta history center tonight we are talking with thomas c. holt about his book and movement african-american struggle for civil rights you can purchase a book directly from a cappella books link in the chat at the bomb of your screen you can also link at the atlantic history centers website and buy the book from there. now we do all know name of rosa parks and dr. martin luther king, jr. john lewis sarah goode marshall they are giants, and heros of the civil rights movement.

well, whole new book the movement challenges the popular narrative that it was kars kairs charismatic leaders and that it was ordinary citizens that fueled the movement and dig into that and as thomas are talking feature questions at the bottom of the screen and i will try my best to get to as many of them as possible. now to introduce our speaker, thomas d. holt is professor of african-american history at the university of chicago. his previous books are children of fire a history of african-americans, and the problem of race and 21st century. among his distinctions, he's macarthur genius award and former president of the american historical association and member of the american philosophical society. tom holt thank you so much for joining us tonight. >> thank you for having me.

>> you begin with two women not so well known in the struggle for civil rights. kerry fitzgerald and irene morgan i want to start with the first kerry fitzgerald your maternal grandmother how does she fit into the resistance? >> i begin with story of my grandmother. because it captures i think, some of the things that joust noted that i wanted to explore in the book. that, you know, my grandmother as i describe in the book 1944 early 1944, basically it was a moment where she is in west virginia. gets on a bus going from virginia to her home, and she said to taking a seat in the

so-called white section of the bus. and as it turns out for number of rngs i discuss in the book, s not aced like rosa parks or other people but i think her experience was exemplary of that moment in history when one, the circumstances historic circumstances, social context was that she felt, you know, her grievances that are built up over time that she could, you know, challenge the segregated seating which was by law in virginia at that time. also that although this was something that ting that -- undoubtedly other unsung unrecorded incidents of this

sort was some sense of that. it did not lead but it had markings in 60s, and rather -- it would be another decade before the kinds of social changes and developments after world wars ii would enable the broad kind of broad based and sustain movement that civil rights that develop 1955 to 1960s. >> like to talk about some of those -- your grandmother was among those as you said fed up but she was also newly conscience of the means and the possibility to act. you know what are some of the material changes that made these kind of actions possible at that time in the 1940s? >> yeah. that's other way in which

exemplary of the story that i want to tell. because you know my family has been like most black families in the south. of number, the majority, farmers, but for the most part sharecroppers a system that actually exercised extraordinary control over every aspect of your life it was worst in places but in virginia and north carolina, south carolina -- you also had a degree of control of your residents that was part of, you know, the contract if you will. or working on sharecrop on a farm. and only when that begins to break down, which is a big part of the story toapt tell does it open up the possibility that

individual acts like my grandmothers can become larger collective acts going in hundredings of thousands of people eventually would challenge the existence. >> right so you make in the book to distinguish the rural southern experience from especially the northern urban experience. but also the new cities that new cities that the cities of the new south that urban life exposed faultlines. what do you mean by that? what are some of the faultlines that made this movement possible? >> it is also less noted that great migration that begin with world war i and accelerates with world war ii, in which, you know, thousands of african-americans move to northern city, also brought them into southern cities. and the growth of southern citizens and these southern cities is quite phenomenal in this case. now, that means again break down

of social control that is so forth -- first of all resident you know is separate. it is built institution is much greater in the city. and on the one hand and then on the other hand to get to work you needed to, you know, going by bus for the most part people did not have cars. and my family didn't have a car until, you know, i was -- almost a teenager. so the on bus then you get this situation in which the tension around segregated system and segregated ideology, you know, have extra force and, in fact,

if you think about it, it reenforces on a daily basis the insult of the jim crow regime segregated system, and in a way that other estimates -- did not have same emotional impact. but much like my grandmother on that bus you know, and that i describe early on -- it was just the insult of being forced to give up a seat. and to move to surrender it a white passenger. but other aspects of the segregation system didn't, you know, actually have that kind of in your face, you know, kind of situation. and that happens in cities of necessity both black and white working class, after getting to work or getting to leisure. getting into town, gobbing

movies, whatever. have to use the best and that's not an accident that is -- the flash point if you will. of that movement not, you know, issues about employment, not even issues about voting all which are important. but they didn't set out this kind of reaction that happened in the area of a public accommodation and black and white in a traditional way than other aspects of the segregated system. >> yeah. that was really aluminating to me that it began and transportation is that flash point and that also stretches back to versus ferguson all about streetcar lines and 1990s what are some of the other ways which are booked as challenge notion that the struggle for civil rights began in the mid-20sth century. so what are some other

precedents and strategies for resis finance that did again and took place in early parts of the 20th century? >> yeah. as a matter of fact, you know, many of the strategies, technique, tactics that we see in this 50s and 60s we can trace back to actually before -- the first full chapter of the book i began, in new york, and -- 1856 before the civil war. where older lady trying to get to church on sunday, you know run off then with the horse-drawn cars. protest around that and similar protest during civil war. and after -- and the closest parallel to what happened in the 50s i think found in 1990 when again --

in a number of southern cities about 26, i think. there were boy cots, streetcar on these are horse-drawn street cars at the time. because of segregated service and no service at all. so there's a long history. but some of those was successful. then civil war era actually manage in some cases to achieve desegregated service and civil rights law passed in 1875 that barred any kind of discrimination public accumulation of all sorts. but it was a turn in 1993 and with the rise of more intense forms of state law by practice

of individuals and the company, et cetera. but 1890s, of course, you have enforced by state law that comes out of the decision that seem it is to justify or to validate possibility of equal of separate or segregated. >> challenged again in the months gm rei busboy cot an civil rights movement and you points out there had been hundreds or more than a hundred racial conflict on buses in birmingham, alabama. in the year leading up to montgomery so why -- why months gom rei why did rose have a parks refusal and why then?

not only a good study of the bus records in birming ham so we know statistically they were being hundreds of cases. where people individuals in the system they got arrested. they got thereon off the buses, whatever. it doesn't lead to a movement. and then birmingham in montgomery, there had been leading up to, you know, the famous case of rosa parks a number of cases. all of the years over past year a number of cases, in fact, there were in which people had faced this kind of discrimination. young and old -- and interesting enough i want to also make in the book is that, you know, it is working class women who often will be ones who all protesting. and who basically take the lead in challenging the system. that's in the record.

but a consolation of factors in montgomery. you had again a leadership that had been systemically challenging or trying to find way of challenging. to challenge the segregated bus on one hand. well known nixon a member of the porters but also head of the naacp for a while in montgomery and rosa parks who had also been very much engaming for almost a decade in civil rights activity. and had counsel one of the young girls who had experienced discrimination and requested it

on the buses. so that as well as bunch of faculty also engaged so it was a multi-- say tear cocollision that was waiting to form around the right distinct and that right distinct turned out to be that inc. when rosa parks trying to get home not to challenge the system -- and she was sitting in a seat that was actually set aside for black people. as usual bus gets crowded and moved further to the back and made a stand to give seat to a white passenger, and in that

context for murder and trial which resulted, of course, in a verdict that was very much on rosa park line as well. so a combination then of the factors leads to a broad possibility of a broad coalition coming together mobilizing to tell existence what beaming the montgomery busboy cot it began as a day workout and then it extended, of course, lasted almost a year and if we have context -- martin luther king, jr. who is in birmingham, and leadership of that organization, and, of course, rest is like i say history. >> this leads to a couple of different questions that we have from the audience here.

the difference in tactics in different cities, the freedom ride or bus pulled into albany, georgia. a couple of years later where we meet charles roar dell those are two of the freedom riders you introduced us to in the book two of hundreds of students who were jailed there for lunch counters sit-ins and this is where the tactic of jail no bond came into play and what was so first of all whaftion behind that and what else came out of albany, georgia? that movement there -- the question is if you have here is how did civil rights movement differ in specific parts of the city, so maybe you can help us sort of tease that out. how it played out in albany as compared to other places. >> yeah. the movement evolved over time and different tactics came to the floor and lunch counters.

mass demonstrations in the streets, and eventually legislation campaign toward the end. the voter registration always been part it have but it became much more prominent later on. actually in albany, it wasn't that they were freedom writers but other students because freedom writers were gaining some fame because of the various incidents further south putt west i guess i should say. but it began as a testing of the public accommodation began at the bus station some students got arrested. those students drew in -- one of the protest and those protest eventually became mass street demonstrations.

which had not been part of the repertoire of for the most part -- at that point in time an that was one of the changes that occurs in albany. and when it began in much earlier movement that was involved in, and 1947. where they were testing, you know, on the buses and they were arrested and decided simply to a bill on moral principle, and just stay? jail until serve their time. it was picked up again legislation yet occurred in rock hill, south carolina, this was

shortly before charles had been involved in that particular incident. and so then it comes to albany and becomes one of the principle parts of the strategies, tactics if you will of movement, action and ideas that hundreds of people, thousands eventually in the street that you overwhelm the past days of the jail, several jails to hold, and create a crisis. rather than arrested pay your bill, and whatever the case may be you simply will not cooperate with unjust system and you go to jail instead. that puts pressure on the local authorities to have to deal request that. and so they're not to birmingham

and other cities subsequently. >> so there's another question here about albany movement christine i think she's writing a book about the albany movement. often overlooked in any discussion of the civil rights movement. what impact do you think has had on future marches an demonstrations and -- one of the things that you draw out of that is the use of music. why was singing and marches such an important part of the movement? >> i think well -- in the case of albany, the -- that was some music in the movement, in fact, that there really is the meetings with folks going through where the idea is just before the student committee was formed in 1960. spring of 19 60 we felt overcoe

with that. and, of course, labor movement had moved, you know, songs in its movement for new for some time. what happened in albany is that since the movement was entered in the church, and it's just natural in the black church to pex press one's self through music, and music is -- and that is democratic form because it is itself that is speaking. expressing itself, so to tell reversing the usual dominant congregation speaking and it also brings them together. i mean it is a powerful fact that one has never been in that kind of situation where music nits people together in a common cause in a way that, you know, speeches or other thing may not

have the same effect because they are -- expressing themselves and they are, you know, and it is -- people is not just saying you know two people at the things because related to local events. because you know, expressing themselves. and so it becomes a bit powerful part of the movement. i think, and especially form of demonstration and so important there and next freedom slingers, and reagan, and some of the other young women in the church who form this organization of this group -- to the country and become

fundraising mechanism. and that's one of the elements of it but i think the most important element is how it, in fact, shape the very action and the very -- i don't to say camaraderie but the sense of togetherness that is necessary to sustain action and discipline. >> i want to also encourage christine to the podcast production about albany called shots in the back. if you were interested in that, a little bit of local history -- but reeling back to that question about how the civil rights movement differed in specific parts of the country. the freedom rider, that do take all of the rides that do take off in 1961, things pretty smooth ride, of course, john lewis famously beaten up or attacked in south carolina. but then they get to alabama,

and things are different there escorted out of town and then arrive in mississippi. and i think i'm not sure a lot of people realize that they were jailed in mississippi prison for a month so -- >> so this is like, you know, mississippi you quote somebody in book who calls it american congo and naacp, how have they give us an example of examples of how mississippi movement is very specific to place this isn't a nationwide or one size fits all kind of approach. >> yeah. i mean up to that point, you know, what i describe i think would have to be what i emphasize what i call new cities, cities -- like 19th century they are a time to industrialize and to modernize and which requires

outside capital which requires, you know, a sense of order that racial violence and so forth you know, it is against the goals of businesspeople and others who want to, you know, maintain racial subordination but they don't want it to be, you know, the kind of thing that's happened like, for example -- so there's a divide then between a place montgomery greensboro nashville these places which have those operations and -- and people among the, you know, the politicians and you know ruling class if you will. who want to sustain segregation and more politely might say, and

they were vulnerable to movement actions that were in marches, things of that sort. in the consumer side of the economy, and those places. i mean, often they organize at the christmas or easter season. precisely to put maximum pressure on economy and get confession. okay. the mississippi as a whole addition -- is very rural and especially places of the movement most active in. it is still although it is changing, and changes rapidly doing it after the movement it is still very much a plantation based economy except for places like mobile and so forth.

and so it is a lot of what was being done in a place like montgomery or birmingham would be tactic would be irrelevant really in that situation. and dangerous -- on the other hand, it was with a black population that was 6 % in say delta, it was a place to register people to vote and would be able to put pressure on, bring about change to political process. and so that's where the goals in some ways of the movement shift more directly. not that voting has already have always been part of objective but it is not emphasized in same way that it would be when the movement moved from mississippi. and thanks to the freedom rides, people right into mississippi and so -- they began try to organize this.

and various parts of that state. and to focus on actually gaining political power because that made sense in that. >> if you have questions for tom holt please type it into the q and a i have one from john that says sounds like you you have the decentralize and any similarities in the decentralized impact then and the blm black lives matter efforts today? >> very similar in many respects different towns, of course, different context different folk. but i would argue that the part of the movement was centralized aspect if you will or leadership. there were a number of organizations we mentioned them already some of them like naacp

some of them more recent formations like who world war ii and some, of course, recent coordinated committee in 1960. as well as earlier ones like urban league and so forth, and each of them, you know, had a contribution to make to the larger effort and sometimes those conflict among them. but there was also cooperation, and a kind of maybe too strong is a division of labor it doesn't quite that, but it was a focus in something like urban league on, you know, that an so forth naacp come to focus mainly on the legal strategy and not always been that. but it had come to be that.

by the 50 to 60 and, of course, nick was very activist in the streets. and eventually trying to organize at the grassroots for communities. so the question is right that, you know, it was a decentralized thing that comes together at moments of crisis on these crisis striking that people actually didn't always get along but with a moment of crisis big things -- the biggest, of course, was march on washington, and 1963 but other such efforts as well would come together and work collectively. in a given love call. j how about taking the attack of legal challenges by the naacp or

or working political channels. did these tensions play out throughout the movement at least in your book -- so where are there places or cases where they -- tensions became very pronounced? >> well, i think probably almost -- i don't to overstate it but i think almost every instance that certain moments that would be chop tension over the strategy in a different place at a given moment. often, the naacp was on one side for example especially national and that's the only complication here is that at the local level, you know, the local organizations actually in mississippi and montgomery in

birmingham actually often quite different. i mean some of them in radical people were naacp leaders were birmingham or nixon elier -- and places in pacific. so there was a division between national organization and local as well. some less so and, of course, was not, you know -- relevant i think in that case. so even within organizations there would be differences of instances and strategy and tensions at times. the i guess the cases -- >> i was sort of thing carmickle registering voters in rural, alabama, for example, and taking on a stance that some other people in other organizations

may have considered militant which i think shows some of the evolution of the movement i'm interestinged in hearing more about that. >> yeah. i think first of all militant was something all of them were to some degree a motto of -- of the shape or form that it took. by the time stokley was in lawrence county this is after the selma march. the certainly among younger people in the movement after that whey they had gone through in mississippi and disappointment of the mississippi challenge and democratic convention, was a much more focused attention -- on organizing political policy so voter registration certainly. but also organizing black political parties.

especially in places that there was a majority black population which is in much -- many of the counties of mississippi, many of the counties of alabama. and so that caused considerable attention with not only naacp but with -- members of nclc who were militant people but were -- they didn't go along with that particular strategy. and so that's where some of the tension at that point and in terms of the changing objectives and modes of organization of the movement shifted. in the late or mid to late 60s. so i guess about 19 56 on, that would be true. >> that is where we first saw the image of a panther i think on a flag for one of the organizations. lawrence county panthers, but --

>> what is ironic about that, of course, people, of course, with the black panthers in oakland which carried somewhat later but it was simply that, you know, by alabama law a political party organize political party we needed to have a recognizeable symbol so they could have chosen a rooster i guess. turn out, of course, for the panther, you know, answered people since, you know, of what they were trying to do. and of their fierceness of the militancy and so -- so that's why you get the black panther party organized in lawrence county as a political party. and then which is quite separate from the black panther party that becomes much more famous in oakland. >> we have a question here from tom was there a particular development that led to the

black power movement? >> i would put a great deal of emphasis on the as i said the mississippi challenge. and which was the effort to challenge or unseat the all white delegation from mississippi to democratic convention in 1964 convention that, you know, nominated lyndon johnson for president. by summer, and again this comes just weeks after the killing of the murders of the workers in mississippi. so you can pound all of that with the sense of betrayal betrayal by people who were considered friends and allies.

who wanted a compromise, who wanted, you know, some way of smoothing over because they were so committed to getting lyndon johnson elected president over go order that you know this was seen worth it to them. and -- now the young people it is not just young people but people have been working very hard in mississippi to bring this challenge above. were deeply i think hurt disappointed and the reaction, again not just a party as a whole. but of the people they thought would be on their side. i think that begins to shift, the -- actually only a few months after that that you got the beginning of the selma movement and selma

mobs, you know, something like just nine or eight months after and, of course, formation and learnlings project in lawrence county that lead to the black panther party, and then a year later doing in mississippi after it was shot, called it carmickle has a perfect audience and platform for articulating the idea black power as the not integration, not, you know, just equal rights. but power. and so -- i would say a lot of people who dissolution who i think -- aboutabout time bob moses left

movement for example for more complex reasons undoubtedly. but it was a turning point and a movement that had been really pretty optimistic despite all of the harshness and the death that it endured. to come to that point -- and to leave that site. >> so there was a real exodus of leaders from the big four movements those four that helped sponsor the march on washington or produced march on washington in 1963. and we have the poor people's campaign that started before dr. king was assassinated. but that had a march also in washington in '68 department get the same kind of level of momentum and if your argument is that it is not about the charismatic leaders that carry this movement.

why did so much erode after his death? i mean was it success and they passed civil rights act fair housing act came after that? is that what happened? >> yeah. well i think -- i think the crinology is complicated there. between selma march which was a great success -- really quite voting rights act -- a lot very much the same as it tried to pass in 19th century in terms having a federal registrar go into places and register people. but leave that aside. but now -- after that, there was i guess a number of things, one it was clear that some of the issues facing black america were not as amendable to kinds of movement

tactics that we had seen. to some extent, the terrain shift to the north in northern states. so the actions in chicago and new york, and detroit and so forth -- and the problems of deeply economic in the sense of a change in the economy -- i mean, look back on that we see and move from industrial to service economy which is, of course, picking up pace at that time and moving up and out of cities. these are structural changes that it is not exactly that caught people by surprise and people analyzing this on early 60s and late 50s. but it was -- it sort of outland the kind of tactics that had been come to the floor in the movement as such. and the fact that we have street

marchers and so forth addressing those issues they didn't have the same, same effect. and so you witnessed only efforts in chicago. which is after some, before the poor people's march. which was also cases it was unsuccessful. and i think faced many of the difficult complexities of trying to move the needle in materials of social change with the tactics that have been perfected in the movement. by time you get to the poor people's campaign, in 1968, the -- this was fully evident and there's some federal programs that were supposed to be

addressing some of these issues. but, of course, you also have the vietnam war which is competing with those programs. among other things. sod very different context than say cut into the timeline of 1940s or 1950s or mid-1960s. so the -- it is hard to say even if king had lived whether the march on poor people's campaign would have -- measures it would have been able to make but confession of some sort. butsbut that is an open questioi think. >> also interesting in chicago that martin luther king, jr. was

dr. king was leading people in a rally and protest. and they had stones and brocks thrown at them. that is not an image that we see repeated a lot. so -- was that just this story is not as interesting in the north or was it all of those other parks that you were talk about that was robbing attention from the movement? >> well, i would venture what is perhaps a too simple explanation at least maybe the beginning to find an explanation. which is that, the movement up to selma had really been quite literally a system in the south that to a broader public national public, obviously, north and west, that you

mobilize people support, i mean, and selma is a perfect example. overwhelming support. across the nation that this cannot stand and that people should be allowed to vote and therefore you get the pressure -- political pressure to pass a voting rights act. >> uh-huh. >> when you go north and you are attacking, you know, race nism the north, and racial, you know, oppression racial deprivation, then who are you going appeal to who will exert that pressure? so you go to chicago, and it is mayor daly powerful in the democratic party. he's not, you know, senate or eastman out of mississippi. he's some other that johnson that depends on delivered votes if he's going to be reelected anybody else for that matter,

and so -- geography i think shifts the dynamic of very dramatically. and i think this was recommended at the time that you move to the north, and now your basic tactic of exposing something that is morally evil -- but you're finding it there the place in the north that formally provided you some kind of political support. >> uh-huh. >> and so you get people in the streets throwing bricks and so forth not that they haven't been racist -- and done things threek like that before they have in the 1940s, that's -- a attack and people try to move into white neighborhoods, for example. but now there's no counterforce that's challenging that. to any great extent -- and so the dynamic is very

different. now one would have to, you know, it would take some explanation to try to tease that out but that is basically the -- the entity of questions. that you know, why it was falter at that point. >> thank you for that. before we close, you write about a lot of hidden figures speak in the movement. including some of the women of the mississippi movement and question here from anna. do you think had been gwinn recognition she deserves during civil rights movement? >> yeah. certainly and the literature on the movement. i mean at the most prominent work on mississippi and as a whole -- have recognized and i think hers has grown all of the time and proud to say one of my former

students wrote a biography, and her role and development as activist and her role from a 1920s on and, you know, impact on committee in the 60s. but she's been, worked in naacp worked in various other, you know, organizations. and so her place i think is -- a movement activist themselves, they know very well. but it was a crucial figure of that all of the generation if born in 1993, that all of the generations that, you know, help guide and nurture younger generation coming of age in the 50s and 60s. some of the other people may have gotten less attention we tend to forget people who were

doing voter education and legislation back in the 1940s who are still active. you know, in 1960s and they drew on their experience. and these were, you know, important for example, important figures in the movement. so i think that's, i think that's the, you know, counterargument that they have gotten to some extent, their view. my point, though, and again back to my those who unsung who don't make the history book, and when you look at who got arrested in birmingham who got arrested in montgomery who brought the case that in the montgomery --

took to the supreme court and won the victory. over segregation in montgomery it was about 4 or five women who brought that suit. all of those women have been gone through similar experiences, and they are not, you know -- household names. [laughter] but they are representative of i think of broad -- sections. of the black community that was crucial to the movement. the church ladies were, you know -- i was raised about in this church and -- church ladies who, you know, are behind the scenes and who will make it possible just like they made it possible for church to work they made it possible for movement to work. >> we got a message here from one of your other former students her name is ceda had a

pleasure of working from berkeley retiring and volunteer in project south hello to you. thanks for the encouragement. but let me pick up on that last point as we close. when you celebrate the -- those who weren't the big towering figures, what does that allow and what does that tell us about activism going forward or any future civil rights movement? >> to tell this is -- is reenforces the message of ella bark and some extent of bob moses you organize from bottom up. the energy and the sustaining and the power of a movement is in that broad section of the population that basically like rosa parks said about her action that december evening, aye had enough. that come to sustain way that

you're keeping a movement you mobilize it and that it sustains itself some -- to a great degree and it is not -- [inaudible conversations] so it is not so much about them being held but being recognized and recognized in a way that, you know, future movements could learn from that experience. you know, one of the things that motivations are writing this book was that taught african-american history for more years than i like to admit. and over the time, it shifted from striewnts who basically grew up to some extent during the movement than 60s to go the course they want me to ancient history, and

i often hear comments from them what we need is another martin luther king i say that's exactly the wrong -- message. i mean it is all due respect to martin luther king and to many of the other leaders very important -- but that the movement made them not the other way around. and so one needs to recognize that, i think. and in any social movement any mobilization that might take place now or in the future. >> wow thomas holt thank you so much for speaking with us. really, really appreciate your time tonight. >> well, thank you. >> got a load of questions that piled in just at the last moment i did not get to so i'm very sorry about those thomas holt new intook called the movement the african-american struggle for civil rights and we do encourage you to supports your local book seller, a cappella books at the atlanta history

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