but that's the way people talk about it. so there is a fear that my what will my colleagues the anchor what will my boss think it is a real fear so what should people do as an individual? that's my focus of the book. >> it is my great pleasure to introduce the author of the new book of homegrown hate. >> i'm so happy to be here with you. >> i'm not done yet. i would just got distracted. [laughter] i say nice things. a senior fellow at the center

of analysis for radical right and a scholar systemic accolades of white nationalism as it addresses the institutions power oprah asked while maintaining systems of privilege for a select few reviewers have called homegrown hate prescient and courageous work and the poetic voices profound and prophetic. we are we lucky to be joined by tom greene for this event associate professor of religion for ethics and public engagement at luther college and i would also from the us to - - was state department washington the author of two books on islam a phobia. the spirit of islam and presumed guilty on - - presumed guilty. please join me in welcoming our guests. >> thank you also to rachel

sadly cannot be here this evening i am delighted to be here virtually at north shire box. also looking forward to being here with todd. also would like to think everybody was taken the time to join us this evening. thank you. >> thank you for having me as well and i look forward to the conversation and a brand-new book that i think is groundbreaking to bring together two important topics that are often not linked together in public and political discourse in the united states and those conversations of why that is aside from the fact that they have not read the book yet. [laughter] i'm happy to be in this position to talk about the book and along those lines, i

know there are a lot of media pundits and politicians s do not readily see a connection between white nationalist but that you set out to write a book that ties the two groups together. tell us about the common denominator between the two groups within the united states what do most people not understand of those common forces? >> thank you for the question. i am hoping we can delve into that from the perception of the audience later on but as i argue in the book is that essentially the parallel can be seen with both the self perpetuated as well as the demonization that justifies the use of violence. both white nationalist and the

islamist and united states and transnational me around the world harnesses a sense of victimhood to sanctioned violence against the other. is interesting with the different components of which they do that through religion or political beliefs. the defense victimhood is propped up by the mastic politics and international politics. domestic i mean within the us and other states like white nationalist and there is a victimhood ofhi white identity to be attacked. it is on the offenses that the white identity and culture to be attacked by the rise of people love color generally as well as different domestic policies used to suppress

white culture like we have with gun control and as far as reform is in the sense of victimhood that is buttressed by the interpretation of american foreign policy as well as many european countries that are perceived as targeting and attacking a specific type of islam by virtue of wars in muslim majority nations it is interesting the dynamic because many don't see the fellow citizens within the northern western european countries but rather viewed as apostates and they themselves are viewed as a righteous so

we can talk about that. so victimhood and that other that sanctions violence. >> thank you. that is a great overview of your book. i noticed you have pretty strong views over the use of the word jihadism it is ubiquitously used by politicians and the media but a sense in the book you see that is a major problem so why is that inappropriate of those carried out by militant islam and why you refer as opposed to g heidi's quick. >> usage of the term jihadism to mean holy war is actually a misnomer and extrapolated from

that they use shoddy for someone is also a misnomer. it's not the concept of jihad from the unorthodox perspective even the chiron is the holy text it uses a different term. so using a different term that is islamic i'm very specific that thes term specifies the politicalization of a search ands agenda islam is him is a generic term but to put that militant on it is a political agenda which is what these types of terrorist aim to do. using violence and the pursuit

of a political agenda and moving away from terms of jihad that is a religious misnomer but move awayy from the fact religion itself is the cause of violence rather than being exploited by certain actors so there is a difference between that and another term wouldn't necessarily work i wanted an english term there are some italicized terms in the book for most readers. but i am curious to know, how do you perceive the term jihadism and jihadi in your line of work quick. >> . >> because broader populations

in the united states and other countries struggle to understand violence and that assumption very quickly for what is labeled as terrorism they opened up a book they read a few passages and then they say it is horrible and therefore using something to describe that kind of violence narrows that religion that is extricated from another context and circumstance. so what we always pay attention to is why such a small minority go back and do this. 's over 1 billion people were most don't go off including here in the united states so

how does aku bakr al-baghdadi read the same book and the - - and read radically different lives that is a question we should wrestle with and just to limit that toward jihadi encourages audiences you think it's only religion from a historical context. so i share with you the skepticism if we are using that word as opposed to some language to signal to a broader audience it is complicated with other forces at work shaping the identities of the people involved. >> attention on - - the tension how it is wielded for political aim is what i detail in the introduction and make very clear.

it's example you use that example between the head of the islamic state because that same type of misreading of scripture is found within white nationalism as well. there are many different types of white nationalist. maybe we can jump into that. >> that's how people within one religious position at all but then have radically different interpretations. >> yes. they don't call themselves christians or christian identity your white evangelicals. so i categorize days white nationalism part of the vernacular but yet there is still some ambiguity with definitions used in different

ways. whiteut nationalist are people who would seek a white ethnic stay in any nation around the world seen as meant to be divinely or politically meant to be for white people. weather that means anybodyte is considered nonwhite will be exterminated or subjugated is left up to interpretation but it is a white ethnic state and western and northern europe and in asia so the categories of white nationalism i'm sure this will become important in the conversation today is to have antigovernment and racist and religious racist. like the latter day saints or

the evangelicals or christian identity and creativity. whole spectrum of theology that supports white supremacy. the fourth category such as qanon this comes over to play in this country as well as many others around the world. >> thank you for that it is a deeper dive into your book. i appreciate it. you put these two topics together of white nationalist and the islamist. but you're also saying a white nationalist is a terrorist it

has been we cycled quite a bit in the news recently like the atlanta shootings and in colorado. we have had this conversation before but i would argue it's almost exclusively with popular deed - - discourse with the perceived islam identity. some scholars say maybe it can't be salvaged it is to racialized or to focus on muslim background are those who are not white. i am curious of your position can be salvaged in any meaningful way it is no longer racialized are intertwined? so we can generally include white nationalist quick.

>> if we use it to apply to a white nationalist it will be be deemed andss salvaged and that's what i argue in the book that's why use the word terrorism pointing to many of what youou just mentioned but it is important to reclaim the language precisely because terrorism has become so intertwined and synonymous with millions of muslims in the united states and around the world who are not violent nor are they even prone to violence as they would have us believe. there is the underlying current of perhaps good muslim versus bad muslim that violence that would meet a catalyst in muslim specifically to become

violent. we know from history and common sense that is not the case at all. i use the word terrorism deliberately within my book two we claim it. because on january 6 has taught us, we need to address white nationalism fully and call it what it is we cannot address the dynamics of white nationalism until we recognize it for what e it is which is essentially violence in the pursuit of political aims which is terrorism. >> you have a sense of hope that maybe things are changing with the broader application of the concept of terrorism like the january 6 attack? did you sense a shift in the

media discourse defining the language of terrorism to what happened? >> it's interesting you bring it media discoursese specifically. because of that terminology but if we look at the initial coverage of january 6 specifically it was mob or a group of people. but then by the time we moved to biden's inaugural speech he specifically addresses terrorism in the context of white supremacy. now with several membersho of his cabinet with department of homelandus security now we have a fully robust conversation on white nationalist terrorism. i would hope that type of

discourse moves more toward the public sphere to shape what terrorism is. alongside that, i often think about perhaps we moved post 9/11 to the other paradigm. we have to consider we really do need to breakdown the understanding to dismantle the idea muslim americans and those around the world are also involved with terrorism. i think we can fully address white terrace nationalism until we understand the dynamics to dismantle between muslims around the world and terrorism p. there has to be a dual program for us to fully address at which i discuss in the book.

>> and what drives much of the counterterrorism paradigm? what does he was government gain by focusing those efforts and individuals organizations as opposed to what your book is about like white nationals and those other groups. >> essentially two books in one i think. what is they have to gain by a promulgating islam a phobia? probably their funding and justification of funds. it would be very difficult as we have seen even with the

tragedy in atlanta for example they cannot even classify that as a hate crime as a nation there's not a common way to address that or two perceive the attacks on the majority asian americans and specifically women to understand it iss hate crime let alone terrorism. allied of the current security agencieses at the federal and local level were developed in the post- 9/11 paradigm. i door not think they will be equipped currently or in the post january 6 with that reality that we face. how would you answer your question? >> i think b about this quite a bit.ch both as a scholar and with the state department.

it is clear that counterterrorism initiatives have a lot of funding and there is a lot of money involved. you should never take that lightly. there is a lot of financial resources if you can link something to a counterterrorism project, that will generate a lot of interest across that spectrum in targeting the population does that targeting the white population does not. but let's be blunt there is racism network it is a more provocative point to make but i do i believe islam a phobia is racism even though they are not erased that they are treated as a race against him all stereotypes could be projected and then they could be treated as a collective

while others are afforded individuality i'm not asking to condemn charleston but if i were muslim them anymore mohammed asking about islam and bin laden and the islamic state that is the racism network it is driving on the counterterrorism paradigm. so as being a primary obstacle to the larger united states and political ambitions, particularly since the cold war and that accelerated significantly after 9/11 and the attack of al qaeda. it's always been difficult for the government to look at organizations and look at them

as threats in the same way. to look at them as aberrations not deserving of counterterrorism. or somebody like dylan ruth commits violence he is an aberration. he will not plate on - - break the mold those that have a but with the muslim background that is not the assumption. we have to tackle those racism network and why those populations have been targeted to be d presumed guilty they are already presumed guilty because they are muslim and they have to defend themselves and defend terrorism like somebody like me i have not once ever been asked in any terrorist attack by somebody who looks like me with my cultural or religious background. never.

they assume i would condemn the violence but if i had a different name or presumed to t be muslim, that would be my life. >> event just different name as we have seen in other attacks. so muslims around the world many have and for those language, et cetera and then of course they are not afforded that type of lens they areze very often criminalized. and that disparity of white privilege afforded to a white nationalist terrorist is what a breakdown in the book even if we look at the oklahoma city bombing april 19, 1995 the deadliest terrorist attack

perpetrated by an american citizen on american soil to date. but yet the initial media coverage of that pointed to somebody of middle eastern dissent which is problematic first of all four assumptions but then conflating middle east with muslims which is not necessarily true. and also discrediting the majority a very of americans specifically of christian background as well. that is another oversight. that the history of america is predicated upon white supremacy and that is something a make clear we have to and how the implications are of many institutions very

much supported by the notion of white supremacy and my that would feed into looking the other way allowing white nationalism terrorism to flourish. >> a very good point. the united states broadly speaking have a lot of work to do toh come to terms with the violent extremist nation. the united states from the genocide of indigenous populations to the atlantic slave trade. and the that the united states has a long history of brutal violence. but is not a history that is confronted very often. we commemorate 9/11.

never forget where is the never forget bumper stickers for the 4000 and african-americans who were lynched? that is not the violence white americans want to confront in the educational system contribute so therefore without that soul-searching and that i own five rent history and we have not commemorated that. or to be educated about it we tend to whitewash history from our collective memories that's why this is so challenging. >> yes. that's why it took to write this to grapple these concepts that were fluid at the time

and essentially be the time. i wrote the book as well with a lot of change not only how we understand race to be exported from political power and privilege to oppress but i started to write the book and research into thousand nine the same year that the department of homeland security essentially shut down the unit in charge of analyzing the white extremism at thet time and the report said we need to take this seriously. but the analyst was rebuked and had to essentially apologize because there was a

population of veteransll also seen as problematic in terms of being recruited for their tactical know-how by white nationalist. that is what we saw on january 6 specifically a disproportionate number of law enforcement military past and present called upon specifically because of their military and tactical training and we have seen that time and again. many dynamics have led us to the current understanding of the current events of white nationalism are not necessarily coming out of the blue but intertwined not only with the history of the united states but also current events

of how the federal government has chosen to not address this issue for decades law enforcement agencies have been well aware of white nationalism but yet there has been whole security paradigm centered upon innocent muslim americans. we have to ask why which i have done in the book. the answer isct in the book. [laughter] so those disparities are what led me to the comparison aspect. >> absolutely. can you delve more into the question of white genocide is prevalent among white nationalist and it actually happened with the genocide of indigenous populations but and iothen have gained with the

saudi white nationalist so what drives this state among white nationalist that they have a cultural or racial extinction in the united states quick. >> that's a great point there is a whole chapter devoted to the concept it's called white genocide for reason. in the united states and around the world, the idea that white people are targets of an isolation either by a planned attack or essentially an overhaul, or due to the sheer rise in numbers of people of color, there is a sense that white and that cultural and numeric identities are a threat.

this has been around for a long time for decades if not centuries but the common theme of many manifestoes. one of the last chapters i identify the idea of replacement. that is common even nazi germanypr with their propaganda and discourse but in the most recent decades the concept of white genocide has become a calling card to justify violence. 's we have a terrorist attack in el paso texas and that man role in his manifesto but then that alludes to i white genocide. if we look to what is

considered the motto of white nationalist around the world. that was ten by david lane was a prominent white nationalist. he even founded his own religion to proselytize that your prisons the 14 words much picture the word the future for white people and their children. the idea the narrative victimhood that views white people to attack white identity and white people and white people need to enact violence to preserve their cultural or religious beliefs. we can see the concept of white genocide is not out of nowhere but but then to be in definitive so there is the

majority minority even within the next generation in terms of adults. while the violence isio not justified, the reality of this threat as perceived is justified. >> thank you. why do you think the united states and you think there should be a statute? what are the obstacles to enact? >> currently there should not be given the lack of cultural competency along the basic human rights afforded to many people in this country who are not right on - - white. i don't want to say not white as at centers white people that talking pacific

islander, white, asian, a host of those from that we know through history with a history of civil rights and how thoses leaders monitored and surveilled law-enforcement agencies in the united states. we know the security paradigm was a founded in order to suppress opposition with the status quo as well as any political dissent. that was very early on in the hoover administration whom he had a quite long reign. and then more specifically and

now those are protesting standing rock or certain immigration practices.ve very often these criminal statutes are weaponize for marginalized people rather than used to prosecute and seek justice for the acts of violence of ato white nationalist. teaching is any type of federal or criminal statute would not be used specifically. not by those historically oppressed people. bylaw. there are those arguments there are current laws in place we could prosecute white nationalist effectively. there are a whole range of options currently used.

but again as it just need on - - tragedies in atlanta have shown, there are disagreements of what constitutes a hate crime. it isav with disheartening that i say that. the laws are available to us often they are not use those objectives against white nationalist. >> so as a follow-up, do have sense there is more that could be done at a national level that is not the case. >> it will be riddled with obstacles but anytime we have

positive change for communities to uplift oppressed communities will be riddled with obstacles. that something like that what the federal tracking of hate crimes which is not done currently but yes it will have to be done as well as a lie the secrecy. some more transparency will always do right by democracy. >> i agree one of those challenges of hate crimes and then to identify them with the law enforcement spokesperson for the atlanta shooting say he waswe having a bad day.

and then today deeper. and then over a person like this natalie to murder all these women but it is not a coincidence i remember the chapel hill murders in 2015 and local police quickly concluded the dispute even those who were murdered in their apartment execution style, that doesn't sound like a parking dispute. but that those go back to say we made a mistake this is lack of trade on - - a lack of

training is not explicit bias so those conversations are really lacking a lot more work needs to be done i hope we can make some progress innv that regard. >> also about police departments and that denigrate fellow human beings those to be worthy of those investigations or treatments so something that i address in the book not until we recognize r each other to respect each other andnd recognize our rights as human beings with those complications with those security challenges that we face to not to be addressed or dismantled and met with and

justice and tell the do so. >> at the end of the book you get into the discussion meeting a new approach to counterterrorism. you refer to the justice approach and why that holistic justice approach must move to anti- oppression to counter theio threats posed with the current counterterrorism initiatives. >> thank i you for that.

that is ana term that i used to address the w complexity with the counter terrorism paradigm which is popped up by islam a phobia. one is empathy and one is what we discussed before to understand the history of one's own community that the country inor northern europe it's important to understand with the history of people to identify with and that is so important because not until we understand our history and how we shaped the world view of

ourselvesil toward each other that we understand how white supremacy is essentially institutionalized through so many aspects of our day. and with the education. and we need to understand if i consider myself white and how is that exploited to oppress those communities? the understandings of history but not to condone or support anything but understanding through the lens of people we

don't identify with and the concept of anti- oppression is very much to address the full complexity of the challenges of white nationalism. what the atlanta terrorist attacks point to, it's also about gender identity which is a component of misogyny but also anti- semitism. so it's not just along the lines of gender i'd kennedy and age. so one of those different components to beio factored in to understand to counter white nationalism within that security paradigm will be

necessary from skin color to an issue have many different types of oppression so to help us understand and help us create policies with holistic justice with a comprehensive form of justice. >> please put your questions in the chat. . . . .

what kind of meat are they consuming? are there seeing themselves as well as people who do not necessarily look like them in the media the books they are reading in that video games that they are playing. and also, getting to know people who do not necessarily again look like them. what are their friends like? what are their peers like? i think it's really important because these barriers to the white supremacy will be dismantled when we also dismantled the barriers to seek evil that's another person. thatat is the quote unquote other. i think it's important especially children are such a wonderful opportunity for children to be able to grow up learning about different histories and different

histories not just through a white't lens. it's not a critical component so to socialization we are beginning to know people. during the current timeframe is not being able to meet other children on the playground at school but also whether it's through video games or through books or other types of things just have conversations lot of really wonderful books that address someone necessarily having with their learning about in school. the challenges and life stories and accomplishments of different communities of color across the unitedd states. there really are some wonderful children's books that have diversity. i learned about so much in the last few years. this moves intoe a comment, muslim friend kelly back in 2001to the jihad was supposed to

be more about the internal spiritualit travel and not the struggle against nonbelievers. i am curious with both of your experts how that means, when our children are confronted with stereotypes initially of other cultures what is that file? >> so. [inaudible] who's the left entrance last prophet not the only profit but the person created for us to be considered the first prophet. jihad is the greatest jihad is of the south. matt is fromdi my understanding. but in terms of jihad determines itself is meant to create believers in separate

that from the community of people who are not muslim. that is very much dependent on the legitimacy of this islamic state. with a complication but there's no such thing despite what islamic state was a call itself or there is no such recognition of central authority afforded to any type of leader currently within the islamic world. so, that concept of jihad ise not applicable to the present day. because that is a political type of divide that is not necessarily seen as attacking comets more to reinforce the political construct of an islamic state that is recognized by that muslim majority of the world. so, i would say there are many

other types of concepts that actually call for the recognition of the commonality of all people. even though -- most of us believe were revelation and the latest revelation the bible is a revelation towards another revelation. the revelations over time for the final revelation is also called for a recognition of the common humanity. and recognition of actually thee diversity of religions in fact. so, thereoo is a lot of room to appreciate and respect diversity. that is i think also onere of the reasons the book i talk about the move away from jihad. because very often we centralize salaam into jihad or brown people or beards or something. when in fact their 2 billion people who call themselves

muslims who not only look different from each other but very often very different cultural practices from each other. even though they have the same essential beliefs. i don't know, todd i would to give you some space if you went to reply to anything? >> no greatat response. i think i'm always encouraging to remember islam doesn't believe anything. christianity doesn't believe anything. christianity, christians believe stuff they believe a lot of things out of muslim spirits or job is always to look, what are the understand jihad to mean. there's a variety of ways it can be interpreted. referencing sarah did well to explain in terms of their job some ways muslims interpreted as jihad in terms of that. but i think the fundamental question is how understand the

concept. the islamic state or al qaeda has certain extreme interpretation of jihad. under that same jihad. what benefit comes from interpreting the concept in that way as opposed to the nuances reporting in her book today. >> to tack on to that point as an addendum, that weaponization of both very specific understanding of jihad, but also the weaponization of islamic phobia which is an anti- somatic retort. in order to perpetuate their own agenda pay but also

weaponize by white nationalists in order to support their own call for white f no state. which is a concept i discussed in the book. i had diversity in children, you had a second question? > as more questions in the chat we do not need to question mine. care i believe rightly notes i think i interrupted you in your about to recommend a book. was there a book about diversity something like that you're gonna recommend? >> i'm not sure i have a whole list of them. children's books on diversity set the? so many. there's one that says will talk about race, me pull that up here. there's a book called skin again.

and they talk about race and then skin again. excuse me just a second let me grab this. there we go. so here we go. i feel like i am in reading rainbow. [laughter] so that's a good one. and then also, let's talk about race. as far as different communities for example, and you know iphone is good for adults to honestlyus just because they are fun to read in beautiful books. we have so many, and then there is just one more which is, this is mrs. quite a

popular and there you go peremptory combined all those at northstar books. so i can think so too thank you for this a question from joe cleveland. how does letting go of a one wolf or a bad apple explanation shifter understanding of accountability and responsibility. dismantles white supremacy. so how does the loan wolf myth customer powers that help us dismantle white nationalism? >> get rid of that how does that help us? todd, shall i take it? so there is a reason why i devote ais whole chapter to it. even currently a few months ago the current department of homeland security in new york said something about lone wolves or something. i really work to dismantle

pers not until we understand how white supremacy the natural extension of white supremacy's going to be white nationalism. guess we can talk with that in a little bit. there's no such thing as a loan wolf. recent work so hard to dismantle the myths in the course of the book until we understand as a system as a worldview that engages with other like-minded people and share propaganda and also recruit will not be able to understand and come to terms with white nationalism. post 911, i'm not sure the question is post 911 this line of discourse and fear mongering are still somehow is

that type of thinking. if we work to break down also understand how systems are at play. tactics in social media comes into play two. the loan wolf myth scope or threat of the problem. the loan wolf has served to do is criminalize most of america again. security agencies in the federal level to the local level is been leveraged to construct and support the security agencies. that is what we see.

every muslim kernel of violence that needs to be by unknown factors in every muslim is inherently violent. the idea of the loan wolf is not applicable that may change post january 6 but i highly doubt it. either way i discussed in the book parallels between the usage of loan wolf but also how to just to grapple with the current organization but also i just mentioned social media it is a social media very much offer the space as we've seen with the planning for example of january 6 for groups to get together and not only share common beliefs but alsos share landing practices

for perpetrating acts of terrorism as we have seen in the u.s. capitol. >> i'm afraid were out of town this been a fascinating discussion. thank you both so much. the book is homegrown hate white white nationalists and islamist are waging war against the united states breed thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you so much thank you everybody appreciate your questions and your comments thank you. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> sunday may 2 on in-depth

life conversation of author near times columnist direct about politics, religion, moral value and education. again progress does not cease but it's progress on the very particular dimension that then feeds back into the larger pattern of decadence. because it leads people to spend more and more time in virtual realities and simulations of reality and to retreat from both the certain kinds of economic activity. but also to bring us to another to retreat from family formation, romance,, childbearing, which is the aspect of decadence i call stability basically. >>'s latest book is "the decadent society" but other titles include privilege and bad religion. during the conversations with your phone call, facebook, sunday may