court justice john marshall. spinning well good evening everyone thanks much for joining us this evening for our latest washington elaborate taco. a special hello to all of our friends affiliate with the john marshall house and the center for constitutional history and civics. we are >> we are grateful for cosponsoring both t events i'm f the library center for digital history, in addition too hosting in addition to my hosting duties here this evening, i also held our podcast conversations at the washington library, where we feature interviews about early america, george washington world and the practice of history. and i encourage you to check out most recent episode which we published today which has long lost journal of barber surgeon who participated in a transatlanticge charade trait buried in brilliant archives you can find that episode as well as the rest of our episodes by

going to our shows website, george washington podcast.com. now, we've got a great show planned for you this evening we're going learn a little bit about marshall house and a little bit if the marshall center. and we're going learn a lot about john marshall himself the great chief justice who in many ways made the supreme court what it is today. and as oneus of our guest argues helped keep the american union together in its early years. as it has been march 4th along date of presidential inauguration on this date in 18 01 chief marshall administered the presidential oath of office to his cousin and his nemesis thomas jefferson. and weal be talking with author in a moment and first of it a lucky guest here with us this evening to tell t us more about importance of preserving past to help shape our future, and delighted to welcome jennifer

director -- operation and education at the john marshall house and walsh the president of the john marshall center for constitutional history and sifngs, welcome to you both thanks for joining us this evening. >> thanks for having us. >> tell us about john marshall house what goes on there? >> plrt all right so i'm thrilled to talk to you about john marshall house. but in order to really understand marshall house i'm gong tell you a little bit about virginia where organization that operates john marshall house, and so we've been around for 132 years and with a nation's oldest statewide organization -- and so -- we own and operate john patrick house and capital smith sports, lighthouse and jamestown and so i have the opportunity to be the

director of museum operations for all of those wonderful historic places. but we're also an organization that the statewide preservation and so there's a lot of places that we've actually worked with that johnew marshall and his family would have distracted with, for example, we have been advocate it support the creation of a nine acre memorial shop bottom and we've also worked to preserve the lodge a which is ao in rich monday and both of those sites were included as part of our annual dangerous historic sites program. and so also we had a wonderful restoration team and we've been able to restore john marshall childhood home which is called hollow in the county and lost on places like monumental church which was a church that marshall helped found in richmond. and so -- now we'll get to the john

marshall house. [laughter] so n the marshall house it was built in 1790 for john marshall and his family and hi lived there until 1935 and at that time passed to his daughter and then his grand daughters before it was to the city. and so it -- when john marshall had this house built in 1790 it was already and urban setting. he owned one entire city block and you can seeng the house thee on the right hand corner now he would have only had to walk two blocks to go to the virginia capital where he would have worked and met his colleagues on a regular basis. and the house was built in an area known as court end and his colleagues would have beenn lawyers doctors con in richmond and held have had a kitchen one

and a half story laundry and two law office on that one city block. it's -- so sometimes referred to as an urban plantation and i do want to note that -- at any given time marshal did enslave between 8 to 6 people on his property like robyn who was enslave l.a. and so we really only begun to study the history of the black president here on this site but we're continuing to research and working to build strong relationships with the defendants of the people who work on the site. so -- you go heated and eve a question about operations currently but continue. >> absolutely. yeah. so well i'll answer that right now so we have covid restrictions in place. and we have been all of 2020

been offering digital programming because we really didn't -- so we were open for a little while we closed for the season. but the entire time offering dejalh programming we had closed reports -- and size to 6 people so that we can maintain social distancing. and that will be starting again in april so actually this is a great -- these are great interior shots of the home. and so thanks to preservation leaders virginia leadership and we ended up acquiring the house and operating the house in 1909. we were able to obtain a lot of original furnishing, and so at this point, we have just under about 50% of the house belong to john marshall and his family. so -- and also in the picture on the left, the portrait is of john marshall's mother.

but you can see kind of a closet and there's books in there that's our first edition copy of george washington biography. [laughter] so those ofof you who aren't familiar marshall read first biography of george washington, and it's -- washington had the term full of washington papers delivered to the richmond home. >> yeah. i love the stories of bush and marshall correspondent marshall is like can i have this catch of papers youou imagine how wrong that could have gotten wrong if they would have gotten lost or something.ou [laughter] >> well that's good how can people learn more about your organization if they're on the web? ming rightht so our website is vorn base virginia.org we also have a -- we have a very heavy presence on instagram and facebook. and so you can check out

preservation virginia as larger organization you can also check the john house and instagram, and if you go to the preservation virginia website you can find the page as we also. >> thank you very much. can i segue into talking with kevin because -- i would imagine marshal spent a good amount of time in those spaces kevin thinking about constitutional law, and the state of the republic in its early years. can you tell us about country and sifngs? >> absolutely jim thank you for hosting this event this evening. he called it final founder and we think marshall is -- really one of those underappreciated heros of american history that did hold country together. in a lot of ways and the john marshall center for constitutional history and sifngs is a way of connecting

the constitution to classrooms, and to civic education and continuing education getting judges and lawyers now to zoom right into classrooms. and also to provide resources for teachers. we -- we were founded i guess in late 80s to support preservation virginia john marshall house which is truly a treasure here in richmond. but we have expanded to kind of outreach in terms of history and education and civics for example this justice in the classroom program that we have will give lesson plans where they can teach about rule it have law. more they can, for example, look at what is the role of the chief justice and impeachment or today is the 220th anniversary of swearing in thomas jefferson anmarshall knew the first president personally what can teachers bring into the

classroom about inauguration peaceful transfer power? so that's kind of what -- our name says it all the john marshall center for constitutional history civic to really bring the constitution alive in classrooms. >> at the moment yeah you actually alluded to, you know, judge and zooming into the classroom but you know given the pmentd -- what's your experience and like working with teachers to promote kind of educational experiences -- through digital means of this period? >> we're muddling through together so i think -- when you have onlean resources that people can use that is a good thing. everyone, every teacher is doing his or her best to provide some of us i teach law at the university of richmond law school. i havehe we cannily learned rigt out to -- interesting or uninteresting presentations, and so we have found it to be a challenge but the teachers have rise opinion to the challenge and we're all

doing this kind of together. >> and where can folks reach the ermarshal center these days? >> so they can go to john marshall center.org as well as -- this special partnership that we have right now with preservation virginia to save john marshal's road so i say go to save the road.com. and there you can join us to preserve this is true national treasure john marshal really led the way in terms of standardize the black judicial role and if you don't believe me some think marshall was first john j was first i guarantee he's not wearing black robe and standardize that and became a uniform for the judicial branch throughout the united states. and we're working with preservation virginia to preserve the robe so pitd say john marshal center.org or save the road.com.

>> i have we have a couple of pictures of the road itself i do believe hold those up to look at them but as we're thinking about the robe and you are talking aboutlo marshal standardizing these thengs what was, what did john marshall come down on wearing or not wearing wig on the bench? [laughter] >> that was the big question right -- so i want to say -- questioning wear a wig like once and then he went home and took it off, and it didn't really -- it didn't really catch. so it is interesting when these they thinks did mac a difference and people were paying attention i think marshal's simple black robe which he took from the virginia course at the team, really was a gesture toward kind of republican simplicity and impartiality and somed ways was -- a kind of outreach to the jeffersons and politics can be

bad but election of 1800s pretty terrible. so took the bench in 1801 and black robe i think that meant something. >> was this robe he was wearing when he swore m in jefferson? >> well -- [laughter] you know, the curator in me wants to be factual about that to say likely -- [laughter] so this robe is actually been in our collection for 108 years. when the house is open to the public it was a star attraction, and as far as we know -- this a is the robe, we don't knw that he has more. he never wrote about it. he wrote about having a robe but not more than one but as far as we know this is the robe. >> to build on what jen said look if it wasn't an 18 01 maybe it was second jefferson

inauguration or jefferson one or two and monroe john quincy adams andrew jackson first or sending time good thing this was at inauguration since marshall did so many of them. >> something that our curator -- our excuse me our conservator howard noted when he was -- when he was analyzing the robe is that there's hair and safety sweat that was to the robe so it was definitely worn. i >> that's really cool. thank you very much ton both of you for -- for coming and join us this inc. and telling us more about marshal center and house and the robe. because that's pretty neat and i would like to see that in person someday so hopefully -- >> i can tell you when -- >> go ahead. so just announced -- on april 15th we'll be having a virtual unveiling so the robe is actually returning to the john marshall house and on april

15th, weal be sending out if you go ahead to follow us on any of our platforms we'll be sending out announcement that you can see it. >>or that's great all right already -- we'll be there. all right thanks kevin jen thanks so much. >> absolutely. all right -- that was terrific. now it is my pleasure to welcome to the stage our main guest this eeng robert straus. straus is an author and journalist teaches at the university ofau pennsylvania previous work includes probably best title i've ever heard worst president ever -- which wasa' a portrait of james beau canon now historian rank presidents. heha is here to talk about his w book john marshall final founder robert welcome to the program. thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you very much. it is scary normally i talk someplace for the people don't know anything about what i'm talking about.

[laughter] so now i'm talking to perve out there a will know more than i do about john marshal. well -- we'll talk about marshall and then a quiz at the end 37. exactly. you know marshall was the answer on final jeopardy last friday? he was the clue in the sense -- >> yeah. perfect to be out here. this work out just nicely before we get started and talking about your book robert i want to remind audience that they'll have an opportunity to ask questions if you and second half or final segment of tonight's show andnd folks can do that by typing in a comment wherever you're watching on facebook, youtube or twitter, and my colleagues and i will moderate those questions and we'll bring those to you live and have face time as you will, with the audience. >> good. all right well i guess a big question is -- you know, you have written about james beau canon why john. what drew you to him?

>> let me go back a little bit about why i'm interested in history in the first place. my career was a journalist pretty much. but when i was young, i mean, i grew up outside of philadelphia. it was a big history buff, and he took me into philadelphia and i must have been an independent -- john adams was, and so i had this odd ball history. the first book that i remember getting thing called fact about the president. this money ball for president thing, and you know, tell me that whenever james rose mother died or -- or what calvin coolidge favorite past times were which was indian clbs but in any case -- and then he bought me figurines of presidents.

wasn't a president but sort of little bits of history that accumulated in my brain, and the way i look at history which was a little i would say that's what i can bring to the study of john marshall is not the facts because my god there's plenty of facts out there it is just -- thinking about different things about american history and that's what i love about it. and -- one marshall wrote -- after i had done beau canon, and i film to speak about beau canon because imho knows there isn't another expert out there i suppose. but -- but i wanted to choose somebody who was important but not all that well known. all of the they thing and i've s thought about the --

18th century and coming out like i worked at a tv station that was down the street from independent hall and steams i work at night and i come out to the street you know the light it is are sort of dim and -- independent hall is sort of background over -- just there, and i think like i see the, you know, ben frank an jefferson walking down the street. and see rodney caesar great party last night -- [laughter] so that's how i want to know about rest of their time. you know, as they view, and what i feel as i tell people if listen had picked up a marshall biography instead of ron -- hamilton biography it would have been marshall with three exclamation points. he just wasn't a guy he sat there with a pen writing --

>> well you brought up versus madison and you've notessed fact that a lot of people, you know, probably know marshall for that fact and great decision about judiciary but also you know the fact that he was chief justice so can you give us a little bit of a. sense of marshal's life what does that look like? see you have to go back to -- mid-18thac century united state. and it wasn't that he came at all but he came from what would then be called established families especially as a mother's family but they have a couple of generations and you know, if people question and they see queen elizabeth has this because some in the 14th century did it, and they did down the line well there wasn't anything that these people had to do. they did what they did.

and certain sense and i don't, and you know, a lot people, a lot of people sort of don't understand that everybody knew one another. richmond led 2600 people everybody knew everybody. in a city that's now, you know, a large city. and so this marshal father was a friend of george washington's right, and in something maybe -- it meant something there -- that somebody in the water was friendly with somebody way over western virginia or whatever you want to call where they live. these days -- so i -- whrald be steps that the same political ladder today. except the steps weren't as i

don't know they weren't concrete. people k made their -- made their way the way they wanted to. marshall wasn't virtually no school virtually no school he had a year of boarding school once and he had a minister come in and teach him and he went to five seconds of law school at the -- area yet he was able to live. george washington going to college either. it was a different kind of growing up and we sort of. the tont say oh the founders did this and founders did that. well founders drank a lot too, and they -- and they were -- or they like to play like one

thing marshall was he was sort of like the gym teacher at value ford. he would make up games fastest runner there was a -- diary entry of somebody or journal entry of somebody who said well he could jump over a pole that was -- suspended on two people's heads that's pretty good he would have made olympics we would have had olympics and i think he did it for troops you know a rough time as we all know -- but it was that kind of thing so you progress on from that. and --s whether you were marshal or somebody else you built on being on the military or quit the military and you find that you start going out with a -- with the daughter of, you know, prominent person in town and then you go to philadelphia because you need --

that's oughts one of the great myths i love knowing about myths apparently -- you go -- to the times marshal wanted to get inoculated from smallpox. so apparently there were rules in richmond where you have to get everybody like anything else it was like voting you have to get everybody approval that you were going to's get inoculated o live around you because they didn't want to -- and so -- wie to get around that for him was to go to philadelphia for the city, and so -- his that he walked to philadelphia in five w or six ds virtually impossible today but it is certainly possible when you have to go through week and trees to get there so -- he did. we'll just say that he did and

say what mossy would do and how legend was around you. >> uh-huh. uh-huh. let's talk about a little bit about his rope with george washington and as you mention washington just a second ago and jim pointed out when she was on the background there. of the study or at least that kind of dining room but not the dining room but living room set up for washington biography by john marshal what was their relationship like? >> i would say that -- marshall was washington's chief accolade. he was -- he well -- considerably they met at valley ford so they could have met before because the father knew him. i can't say for that. but certainly they met at ford and we forget that ford wasn't, you know, 600,000 soldiers. you know, it was -- it was in the low tens of thousands. and maybe not even that. so if --

if this guy was a junior officer he certainly had -- not doing anything in valley ford. you know might plan battles but they weren't tweal having them so they meant there and depressed them in some way and he followed him you know he was a soldier through -- new jersey and then he quit but later on -- watching him start him to be in the cabinet he offered him a couple of cabinet potion and attorney general host and not necessarily high to judicial post but he are you fused, and then there was a time we came with washington to valley ford -- to excuse me. to washington who wanted him to run for congress.

and marshal was a proposition because he was a federalist and a republican -- and still he tried to after being there a couple of days tried to escape in washington knew he was trying to leave and came out in the morning and said you know, i'm sorry you're doing this. you know you're running -- and so it was not that unusual being friends with bush in washington, that when washington died, he was -- he was they arranged for marshal to write the first biography of washington. >> yeah let's talk about that biography because we have screen shots we have some from the first volume of that biography from the first addition collection at the washington library you see the portrait of washington but also the title page first volume what's

marshall tent there and what does he hope to accomplish by writing this work? >> well you know, the thing is that, you know, you -- marshall gave ability for washington, philadelphia, in space and time in 18th century we forget it took, it took several days for the news of washington to get to marshall. in philadelphia -- there was no i-95, you know, didn't come up, you know, there. there was no washington -- obviously, so you know, the writer had, had to switch horses had to go get a gps out, and i don't think they have gpss on horses.oo but maybe they did. anyway, so anyway -- getting back to this -- so bush write this he stayed

with a marshal could use the money so they arranged to have a subscription service for this biography going to be three volumes i i guess because there was going to come out in three pieces. and it was geng to cost i think five dollars. but it doesn't really matter. some sum of money that would be reasonable. well marshall is a littlef slow on this. [laughter] and it doesn't quite come out on time. and then people ask for their money back, and you know, i hate to bring up this negative thing about this. this work here, and then they find that first volume isn't about watching at all it is about beginning of the country. so you know these people in washington biography the same way they're looking for a king novel they get it and this publisher in philadelphia -- so back story is start coming

out and john adams who, of course, in washington is like too slow and it is late. it is years late. so in the meantime this guy selling and working for a salesman and publisher in philadelphia named wayne, and we know him and he picks up on the idea well i can write a better one. than this -- he writes to george washington and he writes cherry tree and all, you know,he the stuff thate know, you know, i don't know if he he had wooden teeth in this story and whatever it is he qualifies as -- he calls it some sort of a euphemism that's not, you know, it's not fiction and not nonfiction it is somewhere in the middle so -- i'm sure marshal was incredibly

disappointed you know because we -- he i'm sure he viewed this thing as being up there in everybody's with the biblew and their, you know, their kids drawings or whatever else people would everybody would have. so there's -- but you know if it is lots of things people have written biographies in washington, washington irving for instance wrote one, and wrote one, so there are other prominent people not just historians who, who love washington. and so i think that marshal wanted everything about jog washington to be in this book and he viewed heiling as this wonderful man and he wanted it to write a wonderful man biography. >> as a writer do you ponged

yourself laboring over this work and sometime it is worked sometime it is didn't? exactly. that's whys in this particular book, i tried to -- in the book are a little essays about american history that marshal inspired me to write and said marshal almost became president in the craziness of the -- it was suggest i wouldn't say almost became but in the wcraziness of the 1800 electio, and so i put i have a section of other people who could have been president or early side view could have been president there and henry and stevenson, you know david so on. you know, so -- i think that yes. you know, even though there are more biographies of marshal there are fewer biographies of any sort of james beau canon. but i knew i wasn't there you

know it is like -- and i know that i view things differently from what i call real historians who want to get all of the facts out and write a big book i don't to write a big book i want to write a storybook for people to get inspired to look up the things -- to look up valley now that valley we know it is like valley died they had rag for shoes, and you know starve to death. that's not the real story. that's part of the story in a sense. they all starve to death we wouldn't have won revolution would we? but it was tough that it wasn't -- >> speaking of inspiration that will be coming up on the questions in a few mommies i want i to remind if you have a question time those into comments and we'll turn to your questions here and in about ten or 15 minutes or so. and you know robert one of the

key thingings you discuss in your intook idea that marshal head of the court -- in the early 19th century really helpings to keep union together -- and in the period after the constitution is adopted. how did he accomplish this in your point of view? >>is that, that is a different feeling i have. now supreme court would have started had nothing to do right john had nothing to do. because he couldn't have had a war case or couldn't have had a federal problem yet because this country is just started. one of the things that people would be appalled at if they have today -- when he was supreme court chief justice he ran off and negotiated peace treaty with england, one of the

instances that marshal was chief justice and to negotiate as well as chief justice and he was there to get sick so they need a new chief justice. now, of course, that's another thing that people forget that how that our country, country is soow massive in comparison to other places and try to be so modern. but how did people in massachusetts know where people of south carolina were thinking you know it took -- days if not weeks to get a letter there. how did madison tell jefferson what was happening? when it took -- in france when it took if they were lucky three or four weeks to get their message over there when marshal was negotiating

what the idea was there. how did he know what the administration wanted him to do so -- i feel marshall is sitting there waiting for the right job and refuses all of these jobs and secretaryy of state and meanwhie of sorts secretary of state and chief justices at the same time. >> john roberts was, you know, asked by secretary of state he would have to quit one or another but who knows. but any case, he finally finds chief justice is job he wants because he can see where things are going where they are going between, you know, the newly found parties, the federalist and republicans, and he can see that where the -- where might happen between legislative and executive things

people not listening to something and he can build up the supreme court or courts in general as o arbiters of this, d for the country i feel like it was preserving country he can't prove the negative i can't see anybody else saving it the way that you did. washington pofng, of course, and now washington is again and anybody who watched hamilton in can understand once washington is gone, the great beginner of the country somebody has to take over and they all did want to they were pretty smart people adam and jefferson and all, but they're -- they need somebody like marshall if it wasn't marshal it would have been somebody else doing it >> well, you said you know part what have you're doing in your

book is exploration of american history, and i did love opening introduction you talk about father dragea you and as you wee a kid as graduate of the university of virginia i have to ask and i have questions about humanities here in a second but would you mind telling story about twheem your father at the union -- at the collection to pull out jefferson's will? who is a friend of mine who is on this and knew my father when iny was -- he was a man who was a lawyer, and municipal judge for some time. but he was a big history buff and so -- 1961, when it was a civil war he determined we were going to leave our home in new jersey and drive around and we have that battlefield and he did frankly more civil war than that. but we get to charlotteville

he's like e enamor but we were going into the library and wherever archives were and he says to this guy, i don't know. i want to bring out jefferson will i have a photograph. so and so like a guy he made up. judge so and so said i could do it and the guy must be -- you know a little also and he says -- this we can't do that we can't bring out that, and he says -- so and so said it was okay, and finally the guy does do this and my father photographed it and -- he framed it says five pieces, and he put it on his wall and now i have on my wall because, youy know, i'm sure any, whatevr they do now with the will and

digitally it is better than what i have except that i have -- [inaudible conversations] yeah so --be that's a fun story and it speaks to fact that you were instilled early on in life with love of history in the humanity, and there's a chapter in your book that you kind of talk about that sort of the importance of studying history i and the humanities in general and you know what an era right now where we're talking a lot about invest in funding and you know, how much we should be putting towards things like science, technology, engineering and math, and often the case you know that counts as a cost things like humanity -- what is your sense of why the humanities are important? >> i went to school for my kids went to davidson also a small liberal arts school, and david in one of his talks in the

pioneer book talks about history is no different than other disciplines it is poetry and disrespecting your past if you don't really study history a little bit. you know, and we talked often about the fallacy of the immediacy. what's happening now is the most important thing. well it is to the trees are -- yes, of course, it is all of the values and on social media it is just all around him what's happening today saying like -- somebody will say well that was the greatest world series. i'll think like yeah last year. right if because this is what's happening now. andng when i would go tout talk certainly it was for the beau canon book it was the time of 2016 election and people say oh, my god this is worst possible thing oh, no --

1800s you know like all if you go back if you go back that far --18 you know, you can one of the things that i believe i put in my book is marshal great decisions great decisions but when you read the cases, there's almost like a sitcom versus madison could really be if he voted right a sitcom. you b know -- it would be too much to go into it. but one of the basic things it wouldn't have existed had -- marshall secretary of state gotten the commission out. so you know, he's complicit wold allow who would allow versus madison or at least marshall to decide today it would be appalled and say what a conflict

of interest. they're looking for the last three --nt supreme court justice hearings about the essential part. but other things about their particular conflict of interest well that's nothing in comparison so greatest decision that america had. at the engsd of the day then robert -- you called your book john marshall the final founder. why is marshall the final founder? he's last guy working he's the no one rion of founders to, you know, fill fast and 43 or everywhere. because mark, there were two people who we like who lived longer than him aaron burr and james madison. but they were retired. they well might not have wanted to be retired but madison was clearly retired marshall was

vibrant he's chief justice when he comes to i can't -- i live in philadelphia i have an operation last year in the same place for john marshal died same building first hospital -- in the united states. he comes up with kidney stones. he rides from i forget in washington or richmond at the time he rides all way up here with kidney stones. now that's a man. you know, that's a guy -- who is still living and he dies in philadelphia on the basically on operating table. but -- he's working until then, and he has a very long career and the 30 some years he was chief justice is only part of it. ii hope people get to read my book and i hope career and what

people did it wasn't really that hard i'm saying only 3 million people in the first census 10 million is white people i'm sorry. and even less than that that could have been founding fathers and want to live way out in the western virginia. so if you really wanted to be a founding father you have in you, then -- you probably would be able to do it. >> all right we're about to turn to audience questions but i have to ask not john quincy adams marshall -- >> yeah. [laughter] i guess so he has an asterisk, he was -- he did go off with his father. but he was a little young when he firstid started he was still, you know, ten or 11 when he's in -- england with his father so i --

so i don't count him. he's too young. he'll be rodger marist callers with asterisk. >> that's true. that's true. [laughter] all right -- s>> i'll talk all night let's gt audience questions an quin would like to know how do you see marshall's personality in general was he serious, was he heavy guy? you know, humorous -- probably easy to, you know, look at the guy and think he was a lawyer and very serious, and whatnot.y but what's it like? >> no. he, you know, he -- he was one of the great partiers of this -- so they did a thing called writing circuit and speak they have each of they will had certain states and he had north carolina,, and virginia so he would go up to raleigh capitol

of north carolina with 700 people can you imagine capitol of the state and when he got to raleigh a number of cases but each night he would go to the same pub and you know know the same people and you know the big drink of the time. i don't think i've ever tasted it know what it is, but at the time fortified wine. but -- marshall had a club in rich monday started a club because i don't know what people remember if you remember a little kid they had, you know, a poll and it was -- not a horseshoe but a -- circular thing with a hole in the middle, and that was his big thing he was a great person -- and he -- he was also, you know, when he quoted his wife he was a young teenager. she met he met her in 13 i know this is appalling but that's -- that's true.

but he is aging -- and in law school request the great george at married and in law notes he found little things inscriptions like this is the day or would do jr. high an polyand john or something like this, and so -- a whimsical guy and i feel you know -- head-to-head his tough parts but he nearly wanted to get things done in a sort of -- i don't know another thing that we could only drink at the supreme court on rainy days, and he would get one of his -- the young justices to go out and pull back the curtain see what it is, and they -- like this summers say that is raining somewhere.

you know, and jimmy buffett of supreme court justice. [laughter] >> now eve the image of marshal in a hawaiian shirt. >> it would be. well thank you very much for your question and would like to know -- aa beginner question and marshal question knows that -- beau canon started his life as a federalist we know in his early careers heer crossed paths withr was influenced by john marshall? >> i'm sure look they all know each other once adam comes once -- comes to washington, as you know congressman he has to know the supreme court chief justice who is -- who is and whether he was influenced by marshall particularly i don't know. but -- just like any place else, in the time he started he started you have the h federalist and you kw he's just a way it was.

when he finally converted, so to speak, about it he was -- i don't know. i don't to get into beau canon too much. but he was mostly influenced by -- one generation federalist -- >> sphrrgd. thanks very much another question from mick hew would it be true to say that he had true appreciation for john effort toll hold the country together after washington? he was a gleet friend of john adams -- you know, adams the -- you know, one of the mythical probably conversations was when they had to find a new chief justice marshal i forget who he wanted -- doesn't matter. he said well it should be so and

so. and adam say it is no i think it will be you. you know or they were -- he really -- he really, you know, they were all four friends, especially i know a more about philadelphia than washington in this regard and one of the things marshall did was marshall in the sense was a supervisor of the building of washington, d.c. you know, he was down there secretary of state doing whatever he was doing, and adam says that's too hot here i'm going back to quincy it is your job so -- it is possible that marshal was first person to sleep in the white house. because he did sort of bunk in there while he was supervising the building. i don't know if it is that he supervise building of the capitol and the white house -- but had to get it done before adams could move t in. >> uh-huh. well thank you very much and now we have time for two more questions one coming now from

margo is asking -- who was still unfounded father important people of that time that marshall was closest to agree with most we talked a lot about, you know, a lot of big guns in that pearled. but who do you see then closest to or women that he was closest to and who he aligned with ideologically. >> certainly adams but it is more? to note just like you know your enemies, there are three ways that jefferson didn't like him. jefferson -- [laughter] you mentioned this that they were antagonist and they would have been -- in our alleged sitcom neighbors, but they were second cousins so they were related by marriage. they were -- and then his father-in-law if we can follow this married a woman who jefferson so that was bad

enough too different parties. and the federalist, you know, he is the last federalist too. being a federal fist really broke up very quickly. however you have to remember this y when they have all of these -- when marshal was appointed an approved federalist had the congress and the presidency. but right the next day, of course, large for 1801 democrat republican he is the president -- so they both houses of congress. but every single judge federal judge in america was a federalist. so can you imagine people are complaining about the supreme court now, the biden as presidentin but other conservate in the supreme court. well, think about back then -- jefferson was facing he was facing complete, you know, avalanche of opposition in the courts.

>> that's one of the reasons federalism survived so long they were tiebl accomplish that goal well thank you very much margo. great question and our final questiono for area goes to lisa wants to know more about recent process when you're researching marshal was there any one that i think surprised you about him or gave you pause or that gave you ability to know chief justice marshall all of the better? i do write like i was saying other right -- rather been in who is when one of the presidents say george bush or -- george bush the younger or -- barack obama who had young daughters i would have loved to have been there saying you can't go out with him like something that --- that we don't already know or you know, reprimanding him for leaving butter out or something so similarly i try to imagine

march pcial daily life was, and he just seemed to like it. he seemed to like his life he loved his wife even though she went -- she really became a after two of her children died in child birth and two of them died toddlers. and he was -- he always wrote a letter when he was in washington and she was in richmond insisted letters tbrak her and had a great life at the club you know, like -- he's the chief justice and yet he wants to like 23-year-old -- so you know, these people have real lives and some of them when you watch the john adams you know -- that was on tv you know pbs sometime you get the idea that oh, my god how does he -- he's like so all of the time and

they have, you know, black shades over hem but marshal had -- i justla think that he had this great life and what i -- when i try when i read something that's factual i try to imagine what he's thinking. andll that's what to me that's what history is about and i encourage everybody to find some little aspect of history by the way -- mentor and i started we decided to start a podcast called stand history. and we have not won so far. that's the life of podcast i don't know that many people -- listenat to them xepght except s and we have such fun and trying to find humorous aspects of history and doesn't have to be exactly humorous all of the time but american history when you try to incaps late it best thing is to

find something with your interest and in your head is saying -- what were they really doing and what were they thinking? >> folks should go tout check the podcast sheet for that one episode hopefully will follow. >> that's right. that's right. it is called stand-up history, and our -- i won't get into it but a guy named daniel sickle who was -- fascinating character who everybody knew when he was alive in the middle part of the -- in middle late part of the 19th century and nobody knew who he was now. [laughter] h a character. j that's a good teaser robert thank you so much for spending your time with us this evening really appreciate you coming then and talking with us about, you know, marshall. >> i thank you i find these opportunities wonderful. thank you very much. >> it's our pleasure, and thanks very much again to kevin walsh and jennifer from the marshal center and the marshal house

respectively before we let you know i want to give you a programming note, tomorrow march 10th next week i believe -- my colleagues will talk with fellow university of central florida, and david written a recent book about new conspiracy of 1783 and be sure to check out and sign up for our michelle smith lecture series which will take place over course of march, april, and may and series explores the founding moment in considerable detail and you can find more information about michelle lecture series and david head talk to watch replay of this talk we're to watch replay by talks by going www mountain burning.org/gw digital talks thank you again kevin and samantha snyder behind scenes for operating cameras working to

collect questions your help is appreciated as usual couldn't have done it without you good night everybody. hope to see you all back here real soon. >> booktv is television for serious readers all weengtd, every weekend, join us again next saturday 8 a.m. eastern for the best in nonfiction books. ♪ ♪ ..... charter is connecting us. charter communications supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front-row seat to