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>> raffaella is with the manhattan institute, deputy director of their legal policy and a senior fellow there along with us this morning to talk about police reform efforts. rockdale manuel, welcome to washington journal. >> guest: thank you for having me on. >> host: in the aftermath of the derek chauvin verdict this past week the nation still unsettled even overnight, thenew york post reporting about a protest in new york last night, protesters blocked traffic , clashed with cops on the brooklyn bridgeincluding some video that the new york post shot . certainly several days past the chauvin trial there have been reports of additional police shootings. what's your report on the state of the nation here in the days and particular police reform in the days after the chauvin verdict. >> i think were in a precarious situation or as a country. most importantly because one of the things that the

chauvin incident before the trial even placed in his sort of entrenched the country's conversation about police reform in this idea, this toxic idea frankly that police pose and extend existential threat to black americans . we're starting to see data from the manhattan institute by eric kaufman that found eight in 10 african-americans believe that black men were like more thlikely to be killed by police and to die in a car accident and of course the odds are more than 10 to 1 in the other direction. we're at this point in which the chauvin incident with george floyd set a narrative that we of course, have this misperception about policing in america and it's this misperception that driving the conversation so any pushback gets sort of characterized as insensitive to the concerns of certain communities . and i think also the

misperception kind of feeds these overreactions to other incidents, i'm thinking here of the shooting in which the facts are much more ambiguous and they were in the that were killed in the incident and yet we're still seeing those kinds of incidents and those kinds ofprotests . >> i guess i'll ask you about the response of the departments across the country, there are several incidents we can talk about in just the past couple of days but in general, how have , what your perception of how police departments have responded to allegations of police shootings that have,, not just allegations but incidents of police shootings that have come up in the past couple of days ? >> i think the response that there's basically reflecting a sense that the police are under fire and they are in this country so which is interesting because the

police response in general to the chauvin verdict and to the incident, that should be pretty were universal in its combination of derek chauvin conduct so i think what we're going to start to see is a split between departments that are going to start to support their officers involved in these until they get more facts for that's one of the big worries in the file. >> joining us from new york as we mentioned at the top of the segment, a conflict yesterday with protesters and new york city police and on a bridge in new york city, protesters blocked traffic and class with cops on the brooklyn bridge last night in new york. justa little of the video from the new york post on that . >>.

[shouting] >> why isn't he across the street? [shouting] >> host: you may not be seeing the video but what's clearly present is the evidence of the presence of phones and what a vital part, a central part they were to the trial. they're in new york city, what is the sort of guidance that the police have been getting in handling such situations like this has protests on this matter ? >> i can't claim to be familiar with pacific guidance officers are being given but i can say that

generally speaking the covid-19 does a good job of trying to get shootings clear, trying to keep traffic moving and both protesters and the community safe. unfortunately a lot more of these sorts of events are getting out of hand at a higher rate. i think that's largely because of the anger that's been formatted within police critic circles and again, i think that that's largely driven by misperception but unfortunately and getting to some of the data during our conversation today, it's not a good place to be and it's one that i'm somewhat i guess not surprised but i'm more disappointed in us reaching because the reality is it's taken a lot of effort to move in the direction of reform over the last two years. here in new york and other parts of the country. last summer governor cuomo signed 10 police reform bills into law and the council passed another package of police reforms. that doesn't count any of the things happening over the last few years in new york

which is just incredible in terms of the d conservation that's taken place . >> .. >> yet, none of this seems to have appeased the police critic crowd and i think this will get us to a point in which police supporters and police departments stop engaging with reformers because they don't think that giving in will be worth it because the reformers will try to take and -- >> one of the federal efforts the legislation proposed in congress, two of them, the one that is passed in the house and is already passed was called the george play justice and policing act and actually passed before

the verdict early on in the house and that measure still awaiting action in the senate would do the following. it would prohibit racial profiling by law enforcement, pancho coals and no knock warrants, limit transfer of a military grade equipment in police departments, require body cameras, make it easier to prosecute offending officers, enable individuals to recover damages in civil court, collect data on police misconduct and limits the use of qualified immunity as a defense and civil court. raphael, your thoughts on that o particular legislation and i will also read the proposal on the senate side of things by tim scott. what is your thoughts on the house passed measure? >> i think that goes way too far on a few things. i mean, you know, we can talk in more depth about a couple of them if you would like but i mean, look, on the racial profiling point i think the big

question is how does that define and if we are going to assume racial profiling based on a top line of disparity that's extremely problematic. you know, the reality is that the different racial groups vary in their levels of criminalityy, especially that is going into effect how police deploy their resources which, in turn, willte when they have encounters with people who fit a demographic profile and to assume that there should be an equal number of police interactions based on race across all racial groups, i think, is ignorant of the reality of crime in the united states which is hyper concentrated in a very, very small number of geographical areas and also demographically concentrated particularly when talking about violent crime again among young black men. if we want pleas to serve the communities and meet the need

that has the biggest violent ncrime problems that will mean getting or having those interactions which are disproportionally going to involve ra young black men. i think the data portion of that is good and i think there's also a lot of good data requirements but if you -- but something else the blanket ban on chokehold for example, i think, can turn out to be problematic and have unintended consequences. i think obviously that constrains can be particularly dangerous, especially if they are overused or used inappropriately or applied for too long but the reality is that it's an effective grappling technique that could prevent when suspects are resisting from devolving into the point using more serious force in getting used. but i think will happen is if police officers cannot physically control suspects then the ones will have more

opportunity to escalate their resistance which could in turn lead to more students, not less, then on the qualified immunity point i think this is the big points between how the senate and both sides of this debate over state their points and qualified immunity does not is based on the data seem to be a particularly common basis for defendants not been able to recover for damages. thereow is one study done that that qualified immunity was the basis for dismissal or summary judgment about three or 4% of all police litigation. of course, that doesn't mean it does not get abused and i think it should be reformed. >> the other piece of legislation i introduced last year after the george floyd killian by senator tim scott of south carolina is also cosponsored in house by a former police officer called the justice act of 2020 and it would

increase the number of body cameras and emphasized the police departments more closely risible community states or the restore investment on community policing and refocus de-escalation techniques and a duty to intervene. watching the trial what became evident was or became evidence in the evidence is that training techniques really evolve over time and that various moves and procedures in terms of restraining a suspect have changed over time and what are your thoughts on that? >> police training is one of the biggest issues and if you ask every single police executive off america they will tell you they want more of these training and fewer but unfortunately this will be hard to achieve given the popularity of the defunded movement which is trying to take police resources off from the department and ends up being

less training and a lower ability to attract high quality candidates which ultimately will likely translate to worse results in the field and more mistakes. >> there was a piece published by the denver news colorado university denver news about a new study on the way the police could reduce shooting errors. they did this piece, new research published by police quarterly says that they found that officers can significantly improve shoot, no shoot decisions by simply lowering the position of their firearm in the study and they looked at 313 law-enforcement officers in a randomized controlled experiment and after the experiment was complete it was proven that when officers had their firearms in the low ready position down below their navel they cut their chances of making a midst diagnosed shooting arrow by more thanho a half and across them oy 11100 this of a second and they believe the small amount of time because the officer a chance to

check their swing, enabling them to reassess what they see. >> i'm not familiar with that study and it does sound interesting andwo worth pursuing and if it can be replicated on a larger scale and in other deferments i think that certainly worth it but, you know, again i think it's also difficult to incorporate those things into the kinds of situations in which we they tend to draw their weapons and is a fraud situation and the level of adrenaline is probably pumping high and the level of fear is high and i think we have to as they make a public stand about what police are experiencing in those moments and try to put ourselves in their shoes. i do think that's a very interesting result that ought to be looked at more. >> rafael is with the manhattan institute and is our gas or talking about please perform efforts in the wake of the chauvin verdict. our lines are 2,027,488,001

republicans, (202)748-8002 and we will get to your calls momentarily and rafael i do want to play the comments of vice president kamala harris and that night of the verdict on wednesday evening for here is what she said at the white house. >> today we feel a sigh of relief. still, it cannot take away the pain and a measure of justice isn't the same as equal justice. this verdict brings us a step closer and the fact is we still have work to do. we still must reform the system and last summer together with senator cory booker and representative karen bass i introduced the george floyd justice and policing act. this bill would help law-enforcement accountable and help build trust between law enforcement and our communities.

this billaw is part of george floyd's legacy. the president and i will continue to urge the senate to pass this legislation, not as a panacea for every problem but as a start. this work is long overdue. america has a long history of systemic racism and black americans and black men in particular have been treated,e throughout the course of our history, as less than human. black men are fathers and brothers and sons and uncles and grandfathers and friends and neighbors. their lives must be valued in our education system and in our healthcare system and in our

housing system and hence our economic system and our criminal justice system. >> rafael, the vice president talking about systemic racism. do you think there is still persistent racial bias in police departments in terms of how they treat potential suspects? >> i do not. i do not. it's responsible for the vice president to use that rhetoric.o here is what we know. we know the violent crime specifically is altar concentrated in the united states and also demographically concentrated particularly among young black men here in new york city black and latinos have made up more than 95% of all shooting victims going back to at least 2008, every civil year since they started into document its. that is one thing we know and we also know that policing has significant crime reduction and

the true studies documenting goes on and on and on and so one of the things that i find problematic with rhetoric like this is it drives attention away from the crime reduction potential effects of policing and criminal justice system more broadly because it focuses on reform buty you lose sight of your mission is the government to provide public safety what that means is the people who will suffer are the people who will be most vulnerable and those are the people already living in areas that are struggling with violent crime and the other thing that ignores is it'svi only looking one sidef the ledger. if it's not just criminal justice but focused on disparitiescu in enforcement outcome and when you focus on search rates and arrest rates and use of force in circumstances et cetera but it never looks at the other side of the ledger which is who benefits from crime declines? when the criminals justice system operates according to its goals as stated by those asking for help we know that those

reduction disproportionately affect and benefit black americans more than everything else which through the course of the 1990s the united states saw the most evident homicide declines in urban american history and we called it -- if you look at who benefited from that what you will see is an extremely lopsided outcome in terms of the homicide decline on the life expectancy of the black men there's a full year two that life expectancy and if you look at how it benefited white it added .1 and you had multiple differential benefit for black so my question for someonene lie vice president harris is how is this that you can argue of a system that produces such dispersant benefits to low income minority communities especially is also can be so easily called systemically racist. of course this is comp get a

question and there are problems with america and the committal justice system and inefficiencies and even circumstances where you find racially driven malevolence but to characterize the whole system with this is irresponsible and doesn't help anyone and it's not reflective of the data. >> we have calls waiting for rafael, (202)748-8003 is for(2 those of you and law enforcement. let's get to the first call here. matthew in north carolina, good morning. >> caller: hello, good morning, rafael how are you doing today? >> doing well, how are you? >> caller: i found it interesting and i totally, i thank you are spot on, man. i wanted to say thanks for speaking out. thank you for speak and not be law-enforcement in our country. i think they've been under the microscope for a while with the research institute and if you notice back when iran core was

talking about what i think was the 2018th they started doing researche on resetting police fr 2020 and i know myself being a previously retired military member i used to do research and i worked with research institutes, fellows, and what we would do was target, you know, basically bad people in the military. it would have them look for somebody who may be got -- spirit this entire program is online at c-span .org. we leave it to fill our long-term commitment to live gavel to gavel senate coverage. senators are continuing this afternoon on president biden's nominations, including officials for the epa and defense department. take you live now to the senate floor.