the c-span radio app. "washington journal" continues. host: turning our attention to the border surge in migrants from central america, joining us is cynthia arnson, the latin american program director at the wilson center. cynthia arnson, i want to begin with the vice president, kamala harris, who has been tasked to the president to address this issue of migrants coming from central america. here's what she had to say when she met thursday with nation leaders about the migrant surge in the northern triangle. ♪ --[video clip] >> the question has to be, why

do people leave home? either they are fleeing some harm, or because they are unable to satisfy their basic needs of taking care of the families because the resources are not there, so they have to go elsewhere. so i would look at it in terms of that, and what is going on. if you look at the acute issues in particular affecting the northern triangle, we are looking at extensive storm damage because of extreme climate, we are looking at drought in an area in a region where agriculture is one of the most traditionally important basis for their economy. we are looking for what is happening in terms of food scarcity as a result of that, and in fact incredible food insecurity, which we call hunger, food insecurity. we are looking at therefore a number of issues that also relate to poverty, extreme poverty, and also there is

violence obviously coming out of those regions. when you look at the root causes, we are also looking at issues of corruption. we are looking at the issue of climate resiliency and the concern about a lack of economic opportunity. so how i see it is that for us to be effective in that region, among the work that we can do together, we have to get people a sense of hope. a sense of hope that help is on the way. host: cynthia arnson, what did you hear from the vice president? guest: i heard a lot of really good information about the root causes of migration from central america. i think she quite rightly put her finger on the devastating hurricanes that hit central america in rapid succession, within the period of about two weeks in november of last year, hurricanes iota and eta.

they destroyed the lives and livelihoods of about 7.8 million people in honduras and guatemala. she also referenced food insecurity, which we know from the world program and the intermarket development bank, has gotten much worse over the last 10 years. it has been the worst drought in about 40 years in central america, particularly the central triangle. the stresses on people's livelihoods, the number of people who are still engaged in agriculture who can no longer make a living because of extreme weather cycles i think is really an important driver, and one we haven't focused on that much. additionally, we've talked about poverty and violence and corruption as root causes, or as push factors, and now i think

the climate issue has really come front and center. i think it is an extremely important factor in something that needs to be really front and center in the policy response. host: when you look at the three countries we are talking about, how do they differ and which country is worse off? where are we seeing the most migrants coming from? guest: the most migrants now seem to be coming from hunter is , again a country that was -- honduras, again a country that was battered by hurricanes, that is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere that had extreme levels of corruption. the president, who came into office after a heavily disputed election in 2017, is an unindicted co-conspirator in the trial of his brother who was recently convicted for

trafficking. the possibilities of hondurans to make a living, to survive, and to meet basic needs, especially in the wake of these hurricanes i think is really in question. and it is interesting that just yesterday, the vice president announced slightly over $300 million in aid to the northern triangle, focused exactly on immediate impact relief for people who have been affected, so food aid and emergency housing and these kinds of things that will be provided by a range of entities in the u.s. government, u.s. agency for international development, state department, department of defense and the department of agriculture helping provide food assistance.

the idea is to ride an immediate sense -- provide an immediate sense of help for people whose choice is to stay home and starve, or migrate to the united states. host: an associated headline about the vice president on guatemala, she talked -- virtually had a discussion with that leader, pledging more money and strengthening cooperation. why? what is needed in guatemala? guest: guatemala also was heavily affected by the hurricanes. it is a country that has been deeply impacted by corruption, by an effort to remove the u.n. commission against impunity. we've seen just in the last two weeks or so, that one of the magistrates of the constitutional court was prevented by congress from taking her seat. she is somebody who has been a strong supporter of

anticorruption investigations, been a strong supporter of involving local communities and indigenous communities in development projects, and she basically has fled guatemala. so it's a country that has a great deal of its own problems in governance, but it also shares a long border with honduras. guatemala is a transit country, not only a source country of migrants, particularly from the highlands where poverty is a significant driver of migration. it also has this border with honduras. there have been discussions with the government of mexico and the government of guatemala to beef up enforcement along the border to prevent migrants from coming to the southern border. so mexico, for example, has put another 10,000 troops on its southern border with guatemala

and guatemala intern has reinforced -- in turn has reinforced militarily the long border with honduras. the sense is to relieve the pressure on the u.s., on their border, leave what has become a bed of a political crisis for the biden administration, and then simultaneously, begin the high-impact programs to address the root causes, but also deal not only with immediate relief but also start to address some of these longer-term drivers such as corruption, lack of opportunity, and violence. host: what is the situation like in el salvador? guest: el salvador recently has been less of a source of migration. it is a government with which the biden administration has had a great deal of friction.

-- has high levels of popularity and in the recent congressional elections, has increased the support that he has from his party and his party coalition. he is a leader that has really run roughshod over a lot of democratic norms. a year ago, bringing the armed forces into the congress when legislators were refusing to approve his security budget. he has defied rulings of the supreme court. and had a very heavy hand in enforcing covid lockdowns, arresting people, throwing them into jail for violating the lockdowns. so there is a sense that he is governing as an authoritarian. el salvador traditionally has been one of the closest u.s. allies in central america and

has had a compact through the millennium challenge corporation , was one of countries singled out during the obama administration for an mcc compact, and there is friction and you see it with this tit-for-tat refusal. -- came directly to washington and did not get a meeting at the white house in february. it was said he was looking to gain political advantage in advance of the elections, and when the state department special envoy for the northern triangle visited el salvador and other countries recently, he was refused a meeting with president boo kelly -- the president. there is a great up -- amount of cooperation with the foreign ministry, other ministries of the government.

but with the president, there seems to still be a great deal of friction. el salvador is a country that continues to have high levels of violence where there continues to be a lack of opportunity. but again, we have to be careful not to gauge the levels of violence only by homicide statistics, and they have gone down, gone down in a number of countries in the northern triangle. but there are other crimes that really affect the daily lives of people in profound ways, such as the extortion that gangs continue to exert and practice. it is very difficult for poor people, shop owners, people in central markets who are forced to pay extortion or threatened that their children will be harmed, their daughters will be

raped, and another issue i think throughout the northern triangle is set aside, the killing -- femicide, the killing of women. gender-based violence is extremely high and needs to be part of the set of issues that are addressed as the biden administration looks to reduce or help resolve some of the root causes of migration. host: how many years have you been studying central america and these countries? guest: a very long time. it is almost embarrassing to admit, a better part of four decades, starting with the wars in central america in the 1980's. what's really interesting is that there were -- central america was one of the most important national security issues during the cold war in the 1980's.

after those wars were settled and the cold war was over, the united states and others in the international community really kind of backed away. and i think that's a lot of when these issues of governance and of standing up police forces and pushing reforms, pushing for tax reforms, pushing for more inclusive societies, that's a time when these pressures could have had a lot more impact, and yet we were really absent. and then during the clinton administration in the 1990's, there was renewed attention because of the devastation of hurricane mitch. if you look at a country like honduras, you can see how the phenomenon of gang violence, the movement of people from rural to urban areas, took place a result

of hurricane mitch. there was an attempt to deal then, and we kind of didn't pay much attention for a number of years until the first crisis of unaccompanied minors during the obama administration in 2014. that's i think probably the time when the united states, other than in this cold war period, paid the most -- the greatest amount of attention, devoted the greatest amount of resources, and yet a lot of those efforts were dialed back if not canceled during the trump years. so we are once again with a migration surge and a sense that what is wrong in central america needs to be addressed, or we are never really going to reduce these tremendous migration pressures that have dogged administrations for many years.

it's not just a problem that the biden administration is facing. host: to our viewers, here's your opportunity to bounce your perspectives, questions, and comments at cynthia arnson. republicans dial in at (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. text us at (202) 748-8003. just put your first name and city and state. tina from huntington, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. i come from miami in the 1980's and watched that surge. my question and concern as we continue to throw money at these countries. we are throwing it to the country itself and now we have ms. harris saying we will give

you more, and we are giving it to the individuals crossing illegally, which will deplete our welfare and charity systems for americans. why don't we just acquire them as territories, go into negotiations? it would be cheaper on the taxpayer. that's my concern. host: understood. guest: thanks for that question. in reality, if you look at foreign assistance as an overall percentage of the u.s. budget, it is infinitesimal. i wish i had the figure to pull out of my head, but i don't have it in front of me. it is a tiny, tiny fraction of what the u.s. government spends on domestic social welfare and social programs. i don't think it's really viable anymore. there were times back in the early 20th century when the united states did send the marines and did occupy countries

, nicaragua, the dominican republic, over and over again. and that didn't really solve the issue either. i think there is really no way for the united states to go in and take over these countries without some kind of protracted military conflicts, which i don't think any of us wants. but you raise an important point, which is that you can't give money to people who are corrupt. and i would agree with you 100% on that and i think the biden administration is actually focusing on that issue, and making the theme of governance, good governance and anticorruption a central component of the current approach. and it says, we are not going to give you money that's just going to be stolen. we are going to insist on transparency and accountability,

and the other part of this is that the money isn't just going to go to governments. the idea is to be able to strengthen the organizations in civil society that are pushing for accountability, that are pushing for transparency, international relief organizations and domestic relief organizations, that are in a much better position to use u.s. funding in a transparent and effective way so i don't think it's the case that corruption is being ignored. on the country, i think it is front and center in the u.s. approach, but thank you for sharing those concerns. host: here is a tweet -- army pushing guatemala and mexico to a border war? -- are we pushing guatemala and mexico to a border war? guest: i don't think it's coming to that. border war suggests there are armed people on both sides.

it is really an attempt to improve border security in the region, not just hardening the border along the southern part of the united states. and, you know, those security measures are important. an essential aspect of sovereignty is the ability to control one's territory. i think that goes back to the very beginnings of the formation of the nationstate and the definition of what was a nationstate, coming out of europe, in the 15th century? it is an important aspect but can't be the only aspect. you can't just stop needing people from coming through. another point that is really important is that as the official crossing points are monitored much more effectively, it will push desperate migration

-- desperate migrants to illegal crossing points, and it will therefore make it much more likely that people who want to migrate are going to pay one of the so-called coyotes, human smugglers that will be seen as the only way to get through these dangerous crossing points that involve jungle territory and very hostile environment. so there does need to be an attempt to reinforce the border, but it certainly can't be the only aspect of what we do and no, i don't see a border war as imminent. host: tony in waterbury, connecticut, your next. caller: good morning, cynthia, watching with great interest on your report today. i'm trying to square it with what i see on the actual border.

these poor children -- i'm a christian -- and we see these poor children stuck in cages. the capacities of 250 and there is thousands and there. there is children being found dead in the rio grande. those coyotes are making $14 million a day. i don't understand -- i understand that the vice president will come down there to take care of the long term problem, but this is a daily occurrence. we just saw pictures of children being thrown over the wall and dropped off. it is just heartbreaking. not to mention that covid, there is so many of these migrants that have covid and being released into our country. i don't understand, why doesn't the vice president go down there , go to those cages?

aoc went there a couple years ago and said, what is going on? to me, the silence is deafening. host: i'm going to have cynthia arnson respond. guest: i focus mostly on central america, and i cannot give you necessarily a satisfactory answer. i agree that it is heartbreaking to see these children who are unaccompanied arriving at the border and being accepted into the united states, but in facilities that are not adequate to house them. i think there is a very great effort now, unlike under the previous administration or even during the obama administration, this image of cages, i think, is when we have to take with a bit of a grain of salt. there are very overcrowded shelters, people being held,

children being held in detention facilities that are not adequate places to hold young people, but i think there is an effort to improve the conditions in which the children are being held, and their needs are being addressed. i think there is also an effort by this administration to have a more humane treatment of people who arrive at the border. children are not turned away. people who are asylum-seekers are not required to remain in mexico. that's one of the first things that president biden did through executive order, which was to do away with this remain in mexico program, which led to these ongoing border communities which are slums and have no conditions for sanitation or any kind of

proper living conditions. there is an attempt to identify children who have a parent who is legally in the united states who could be reunited with a child that has migrated. that's another phenomenon that we need to think of when we think about root causes of migration. the number of people, adults from central america who have come to the united states to work, to send back billions of dollars in remittances to help their families survive in the northern triangle countries. but the family separation that that represents is an ongoing heartbreak for the parents as well as the children. there are multiple aspects that need to be addressed, need to be done effectively, and in a way that is not just an open call to

people from central america, come one, come all, we will treat you with respect and with humanity and we will let you in. that clearly cannot be the message. and i certainly hope as you do that much more will be done to help these children coming to the united states on their own. host: will is in baltimore, independent. caller: thanks for having me. i just wanted to kind of echo tony's statement and amplify that i completely disagree, and i think one of the most heartless things this administration has been doing has been signaling that we care about migrants, that we are the administration -- where continuously referring the to them as hordes. biden could, with the sign of

his pen, signed -- solve immediately. host: cynthia arnson, is that true? with his pen he could resolve the situation? guest: i don't think that's the case really. i think you have a combination of push factors that are truly unique. as i've said before, president biden is not the only one to have confronted these surges. president trump did in 2019, but you have this perfect storm, and i use that metaphor quite consciously. devastating hurricanes in november 2020, combined with covid, that has devastated economies around the world and certainly devastated the u.s. economy. in latin and central america, statistically, is the region that has been hardest hit in terms of covid deaths per capita

and also in terms of the decline in gdp. central america is a part of latin america -- as a part of latin america has done worse. according to the u.n. commission for latin america and the caribbean, economies have declined over 9% last year. the average for south america was a little over 7%. so you have just an unprecedented health, economic, and climate related crisis that regardless of the administration, would have produced unprecedented bush of desperate people to come to the united -- push of desperate people to come to the united states. we can all agree that the messaging that was done rapidly that the united states would undo the inhumane policies of the trump administration, separating children from their parents, ripping kids from the

arms of their parents. hundreds of those children have not been reunited with their families. it was important to stop that policy. and i think candidate biden had pledged to do so. but there were a rapid number of executive actions that did send a message, perhaps too strong a message, that the united states was open for business, and abide administration moved quickly to counter that. the coyotes were taking advantage and exploiting that message, spreading false rumors about how now, people could migrate, making people pay thousands of dollars that they didn't have, going into debt, borrowing from family members to make the dangerous journey. and i think there has been a strong effort through radio,

media, tv, to tell people, do not come. what was interesting about the announcement yesterday by vice president harris was that not only was there an emergency, humanitarian, and food assistance, but also assistance to guatemala to set up migrant shelters, safe places for migrants to be to receive care. whether or not this can be done and done safely, whether the government has the capacity to put the shelters in place is really an open question. i would certainly hope that international relief or agencies -- relief agencies and religious agencies are providing safe havens for others feel pushed to migrate. host: john, jamestown, rhode island, democratic caller. caller: hi.

host: go ahead. caller: i'm just thinking that, why not somewhere, make the united states of central america? then they would have a federal government to take care of these parts and stuff down there, racing around, killing people. if they did have one central government in that whole place, i don't know why it's never occurred to anyone. thank you. guest: thanks for that. there has been long-standing attempts at central american integration and it is not in the interest of forming one big government, but really integrating the region. it started in the 1960's, probably even before, but i remember in the 1960's, the attempt to create the central american common market, and economic integration scheme.

you also see it in the kind of free-trade agreement the united states has with central american countries and that includes the dominican republic, to treat the area as a zone as opposed to individual countries. i think that, just as simone boulevard, the liberator -- bolivar wanted to unite south america, certainly as one entity, those dreams have been there a long time. and they've come up against the ideas of sovereignty of individual nationstates that were carved out of the spanish empire back at the time of independence more or less in the 1820's. so i don't think that one

overarching government is a very realistic goal at this point. there's too much nationalism, too much sense of sovereignty, of national identity. as small as the countries can be, there are very strong differences between say costa rica and guatemala and nicaragua. el salvador in terms of how people see themselves, the language, the slang, the customs, the role of indigenous populations as an important part of the national identity as it is in guatemala. i just don't think it is very realistic, although those dreams of unification have been there for a long time. host: scott in myrtle beach, south carolina, democratic caller. caller: i'm just curious as to why we aren't holding funding from mexico or stopping these

people before they get here. guest: thanks for that question. there has been a lot of effort devoted to having the cooperation of the mexican government, of president lopez open door -- lopez over door in helping the united states with his crisis. there is assistance going to new mexico to address the migration crisis, and some of it is reflected in the increased enforcement along mexico's southern border with guatemala, which is the key transit point for people coming from central america to the united states. they cross central america, come through guatemala, and come across the border in southern mexico and make it to the united states. there has been a great deal of cooperation with the mexican government, not only in this

administration, but with the trump administration, to try to deal with slowing or stopping the migrant flows coming to the united states. host: cynthia arnson, what are you watching for next from the biden administration? guest: i guess i'm watching to see what the actual focus of a dutch aid will be -- need will be. -- aid will be. candidate biden -- addressing issues in the northern triangle, and the amount being requested this year is slightly below that, somewhere in the $860 million range. but to see what specific programs there are, how that money will be allocated, and also what congress is going to insist on, because we have a

system of government where the administration, the executive branch proposes the aid levels but it is congress that has to review an appropriate that money. it will be interesting over the next couple of months between now and the end of the fiscal year, september 30, to see how that aid is thought of and who will be the recipients and what will be the main focus and how much is going to go to government and how much is going to go to independent organizations, international civil society or domestic civil society organizations in central america, and what the real emphasis is going to be. i think there's a lot in this process to watch over the next months. host: cynthia arnson, what is

the difference between these northern triangle countries we are talking about and the other countries like nicaragua and panama and costa rica? guest: well, i appreciate the question, and i certainly think that it is important to include those other central american countries as part of this discussion. central america is larger than the northern triangle, and there are issues to be addressed in all of those countries. i would start with nicaragua, which has an extremely authoritarian government led by daniel ortega and his wife. their elections, national elections are scheduled in november of this year. the nicaraguan opposition is struggling to unite, there are multiple hand -- candidates. i think there is an awareness that if they don't unite to

face-off with ortega there is really no chance of defeating him. this is a government that in response to protests in april of 2018, they opened fire on demonstrators killing over 300 people, they have tortured people, held political prisoners, and where people are really afraid to speak out, the independent media has been muzzled. that is an extremely difficult challenge and nicaragua is not a focus of these aid packages because it does not really send migrants in great numbers to the united states. where it does send them is to costa rica. i think that costa rica is struggling to deal with the number of nicaraguan migrants that have come into their country. it's something that the united

nations high commissioner for refugees and others are emphasizing as a key part of the migration crisis if you think of it holistically, not just migrants reaching the u.s., but migrants within the central american region. costa rica has a longer history of democratic governance, affective institutions. its economy is struggling. the covid-19 pandemic has not been kind to anyone. these are governments that by and large did not have access to vaccines. i'm glad to see the biden administration will be much more proactive in providing vaccines to developing countries. where you have levels of vaccination to to five to 7% of the population. the effect on the economy is

going to be much more long-standing than it is even in the united states. we do need to think about the entire region. host cynthia arson latin american program director with the wilson center thank you for the conversation. department bu

request. she also addressed violence against indigenous women and issues facing native-american communities. this runs 2 hours. >> this hearing will now come to order. as the hearing is fully virtual we must address a few house keeping matters. for today's hearing the chair and staff may mute participants microphones when they are not under recognition for the purposes of eliminating inadadvertentant background noise. members are responsible for muting and unmuting themselves. if you notice you've not unmuted yourself, i would ask you if you'd like to staff the unmute you. if you indicated by nodding the staff will unmute your microphone. if there's a techno