... tonight on book tv in prime time historian david o stuart exports george washington's lytic goal, judy recounts the jewish women who served as resistant fighters against the nasis and poland during world war ii the duke university professor chris vale discusses his research on the connection between social media behavior, social divisions online and

political polarization. and cindy mccain reflects on family, country in her life with her late husband republican center john mccain of arizona. that will start this evening at seven eastern. you can find the entire cspan schedule with booktv.org or consult your program guide. >> hello everyone welcome to our event this evening it's a beautiful, beautiful day here in sacramento. i'm sorry if you are not from here and you are experiencing snow. we had an absolute gorgeous day here today. there were lots of people out shopping. safely for covid of course. my name is heidi i am the owner of capitol books in downtown sacramento. i am here to excitedly host kate washington. she is a sacramento author and food writer who currently serves as the dining critic for the sacramento bee.

her work has appeared in many publications including the "washington post", catapult and mcsweeney's internet tendency. she is the author of already toast, which is a book about how being a caregiver is all-consuming and how it can run you through the ground and how to navigate that in a recognize that. she is going to be interviewed by comic ray hope i do not but you your name, rate goo rhianna, dedicate that right? no. [laughter] no speaker does. [laughter] sorry. she is going to be interviewing kate. i'm going to act as your mc for the evening.

as i mentioned i'm really excited to have kate here today. not only did she begin writing this book pre-covid, for his really ill husband. and men can too. i thought it was also relevant and homeschooling children and everybody working at home. and a lot of the times women have gotten the role of taking a step down or a step back from their careers. and having to help children and at-home learning and or

daycare. because we all lost that during this last year of covid. so i think her book of auld into covering more topics than what you originally even wrote it for. which is kind of exciting it was probably going to become like in a history book. the other announcement i whetted to make his kate has generously provided a gift certificate to gurob hub for one lucky winner for this evening. and the reason she chose gurob hub was because probably many of you watching this broadcast are a caregiver right now. and not only needing to hear kate's words during this

power, also could use a break and having to cook a meal. so at the end of the evening i will be randomly picking one person to receive this gift from kate. as soon as i get things going here, i'm going to put in the chat the link to purchase already toast if you have not already. we have it available at the bookstore. copies are selling quickly. if you don't see one available on her website or if you come in and we don't have it, more are on the way i promise. we also, if you live in sacramento locally to the bookstore steps easiest for you. if you're not from around here we do shipping all over the nation. so do not hesitate to support

a local bookstore we certainly appreciate it. so in fact, any questions you have for ray or for kate? please put it in the chat and we will get to that at the end of the event. so, welcome kate are going to toss this over to rain now. >> and here i will test it and toss it right back to kate because we are going to open with kate reading a little selection from already toast. >> thank you. thank you all so much for coming. i'm excited to see faces of people i love, new friends i have not yet met. it is wonderful of you all to spend here saturday evening here a year in to the -- thanks are making the time. i hope the glare will not be too bad a promise to take them

off. i will read a short section from near the beginning of the book. the section is called lazy cancer it is about getting the initial diagnosis of my husbands glue, after kind of a long lead up of seeking a diagnosis. it's reference a holiday party felt like was kind of the last normal party that we did as a family. it's possible a few of you might've been there. i will read now. a few days after big blowup 2014 holiday party on the health portal. it was results of the biopsy. we both felt anxious, heart pounding as he logged in. the result however was inconclusive. no cancer cells have been found the sample is too small to rule it out. the report in its dry medical

jargon represent the core biopsy rather than a fine needle one. in other ones, more liberal, more test, more insurgency. we were on with our christmas and sourdough bread for christmas eve. the girls and matching pajamas, presents the next morning. but unease kept over all of it. the girls did not know this we decided not to tell them until we do something for sure. went back to the hematologist oncologist he'd been assigned to this time i went with him to ask about a plan. the core biopsy was ordered. we waited, and waited, and waited. suddenly in late february results came in. indeed had a blood cancer type of lymphoma so rare the doctor said did not have a name of its own just a string of markers. he did not need to know those that was too long. i have a pen and a lot of patience, try me. with obvious reluctance he said there's some ambiguity within the best way to

describe it as an mba t cell lymphoma that other specified. string of cell workers. a rare lymphomas. we learned was about to be slow-growing. worried about lymphoma there's more than 70 type seats with its undistinguished treatment. here i go into some details about lymphomas that i will skip in this reading. in general t cell lymphoma are not as well understood as others and are harder to treat in part because their rarity means are few clinical trials are opportunities for double-blind studies. i was of course googling madly for all the information i could find about real and from treatment options of what to expect. in the early stages of caregiving played to my strength. as good at research, i like finding out information, and i was a planner. and learn what we were dealing with, determining steps,

acting as an advocate while also supporting brad emotionally. all this was scary but did not seem onerous. with my pen and notepad pushing the oncologist for more answers, hike it feel like i was in control and succeeding at this new job. i did not realize how hard it would be later as the glower often the challenge ramped up. the oncologist assured us because the disease is not particular urgent to treat it. some of the most common forms of the phone but never require treatment or turn dangerous he said. the plan for now he said was a watch, wait, and research potential treatment options. he seemed reluctant to treat at all. we left the office, we joke spread had lazy cancer put a sales not thinking much about what it might mean to care for him. the course and whose cancer would affect our lives but at that point it was still possible to be in denial about how much. that weekend after the diagnosis was the fifth anniversary of my mother's

suicide. my in-laws were in town visiting we drove to my hometown for the day. and on the anniversary of her mom's death we try to get together. late february also happens to be when the almond trees met up picnic which is usually a small break tired and coughing a lot on that daytrip. went to my brothers house for the girls played with her younger cousins. bradley done on the couch, wrapped a blanket around himself and nodded off. i looked over my mother-in-law and their tears in her eyes. he looked sick she said. i feel he can look into the future. she shivered. i saw her point, he was pale, crumpled, gaunt, of worse times to come. that oncologist is the old-fashioned type scene unsteadily push back on let's not do anything planned.

he finally, reluctantly offered a plan for chemo with a drug more commonly as as a second line treatment. many agonizing conversations about that. our member discussing paying out of pocket even though nobody was particularly convinced to be effective. we asked for second opinion at stanford. brad did not quite that their specialty but they were interested in his case. we were already learning that unlike a patient to whom dr. after dr. would say, we've really have never seen this before. one entrance of additional testing including running a camera into brad's lungs to see what he might be coughing so much. looking back it's unclear to me why no one ever suggested a pet scan, the gold standard for cancer detection. brad is known to have tours and trend tumors and his abdomen systemic cancer. if i'd known then what i know now is a caregiver i would've thought and therefore pet.

something i've had to do an occasion since then. but i'm still not even still not fully custom to acting as the patient advocate so we waited. i member brad's coughing increase into severity that spring. for some trepidations about whether we should travel far from her usual medical care, we took the girls to hawaii on a spring break trip would plan before brad's diagnosis. a friend who knew about the diagnosis i had not seen for a while later told houthi saar pictures on facebook, she wondered if it been the kind of trip you take when everything's about to change. we had not planned it that way. but it was absolutely that kind of trip. and the friend who asked him that was in fact rasul turned back over to her. >> i was listening to and just thinking about, i mean it has been so long now. and yet it is in both an infinity of time is come by in the second period i can't

believe it's just over six years going on seven years ago this fall right? >> yes. wow. so i have had the pleasure of seeing the pages of this book come to be over many years now. and i have had the distinct pleasure of watching them transform from in the moment materials to retrospective and reflective materials to argument. and i don't know it's not common for other people to necessarily have such intimate relationships other peoples manuscript as they are becoming. it is been really fun for me to it prepare for this event and you think about the book and think about the kinds of questions that we could talk about that would be interesting to folks who have not read the book, who may know you personally, or had a

particular interest in caregiving but don't necessarily have the same brats of perspective on the manuscript that i do. this is a really wonderful peace but i'm so happy to be here i'm happy to be participating in this. one is to start by talking about how the writing of this book was sparked. because i know, i remember so well that so many books that i have watched and being written over time, that it was born out of acts of reading and rereading that that was really so much in its genesis. i wanted to see if you would talk about what it is that other books had to do with setting this one and motion for you? >> yes i would love to talk about that. thank you. for those who may not know ray is a writing teacher and workshop leader. and so i have worked off

sections of book in her workshop and wasn't it at the time of brad's illness. that is how she came to see a lot of it unfold so intimately. one of the ways it did unfold, and i should clarify i was a writer before was a caregiver. and i will keep being a writer for my whole life. of also been a reader for my whole life. i'm really passionate reader. during the real intensity of brad's illness, i found myself going back to comfort read things i had loved as a child, little women, and green gables series victorian novels that were my focus in graduate school but that i like to revisit. things gutfeld like solace. there is a strong literary thread that runs to this book that i have written because what happened when i returned

to those classics and old favorites was that i started to notice caregiving figures kind in the shadows and i've never really thought about caregiving classic literature even though it's there and particularly in the victorian. most people were caring for family members at home that shows up in books in jane eyre, intimately there is a woman trapped in the attic in being cared for by a paid caregiver. and middlemarch there is illness where people have to make tough choices about how to care for other characters. and so as i kept rereading those different elements of the plots and the characters to limos around caregiving kind of spoke to my own experience which at the time i was feeling quite isolated and was feeling like i did not

have a lot of points of connection with other caregivers. certain there's a lot of resources online to connect people and i had dear friends who i met through caregiving that became importance touch tones. but it is very lonely work a lot of the time. a lot of the caregiving takes place behind closed doors in private. and reading does too. reading into situations of caregiving was an experience that kind of turned me towards them and some of my first published material that is made its way into the book. with considerations of the caregiving i was reading about in literature. and kind of stolen moments is not like i had a lot of time to hang around and read. the reading that i was doing i was starting to see that theme in places i'd never really noticed it before.

>> i will note here in case anyone is curious, i happen to know a good number of those essays are all linked on your website, yes? >> yes they are. they are there for the finding. they're all gyms. [laughter] let's do a little vocabulary lesson. i'm assuming since a book just came out this week it's possible i'm the only one here besides you who is read the entire thing. of course brad of course is read the entire thing. if anyone else has. but just in case as we continue to talk some of the terms that come into the air are unfamiliar to people or in case it would be useful to hear you talk about them through a caregiving lens specifically. burnouts, a word that is in the title of the book. caregiving and burn out in america. how would you describe

burnout, kate? >> one of the reasons burnout in the title is it's really common among caregivers. it is something that happens and people are taxed. so far, particular in mite framing and capacity for care for other people, it just fizzled out past the ability to empathize, their ability to continue to cope. burnout really robs people of the emotional capacity to keep going. as the state of being already toast in the title of the book. i should explain that title comes from me taking a quiz on caregiver burnout the story told ray the beginning of the book. i came home from a tough doctors appointment and googled for resources but found a quiz on caregiver burnout. when a check on the boxes at the end, this result popped up that said you are already toast with the smoking peace

of bread kind of telling me i was passed where i could continue kind of effectively to care for somebody. >> okay. second term invisible labor. >> this is a big broad when i thought quite a lot about. i think it's a hot topic these days. it can encompass everything from the mental load of running a home, childcare, domestic work, i've seen the term emotional labor used for this a lot. memory work, fostering social connections, it is a highly gendered kind of set of rules that make up invisible labor. i chose invisible labor in the hopes it would incorporate all of those things, not just the emotional peace or the work of

picking up the socks when nobody else is noticing or cleaning out the clutter from people's houses to donate. all of those tasks that any one of them does not seem very big. but taken together they make a huge huge load of work. >> okay. third one, i imagine we probably all have her own relationships of this term now because it has been popularized. i feel like you say some really interesting things about it in the book that are particular to your perspective. self-care. >> yes. that is a term that i think has gotten a lot of currency during the pandemic and before. it is become commodified a lot of ways. it started out with really radical roots were self-care for revolutionary. i would never claim to be.

and it was the idea of attending to yourself and making space to continue to flourish for yourself. and as many things do in our capitol sick society got picked up and commodified. note sold back to us as manicures and buying girl merchandise or stuff like that. think it's really important to think carefully about we are acting and prescribing with the notion of self-care. i think the truth for most people lies somewhere in between. for me as a caregiver who spending a lot of time caring for other people, i found being told to focus on self-care really challenging. i felt like us to do list item. i've been caring for other people, i do not have time to

care for myself. and i also think that self-care is often prescribed when what we all need is community care relate societal level care. one of the things that was really important to me to it incorporate in the book is sort of a broad systemic critique of how caregiving and unpaid family caregiving in particular operate within our culture. i should say wilbur on the team of definitions when i'm talking about caregiving, and have a lot of meetings. but for me i'm specifically applying caring it for file member or friend. usually an adult. >> last one, vicarious trauma. this is an interesting term that comes from really medical care and trauma work. i adopted and talk about some in the book.

especially in the posttraumatic stress. caregivers are not being directly traumatized for can pick up a lot of what you call vicarious trauma being traumatized by being in this difficult, painful, stressful situation. and having that reverberate through and after the experience. there's been some research done showing the trauma of caregiving can really linger, can cause ongoing symptoms of stress. that is of course very true for the ill person who is being cared for as well. there is tremendous trauma constraint associated with that. research now is showing that can carry over to the caregiver as well.

>> thank you. so, one of the things that i think is a really valuable message in the book, is just how the cost of caregiving can evolve and change for the caregiver over time. of course, as you are telling the story of the particular situation diagnosis through treatments and on into recovery and the new normal for you and for your family, you marry a progression from an acute emergency to caregiving over the long-term. one of the things i feel like i learned a lot about from the book is about how it is a role

that initially can seem quite clear can actually gain or lose definition in different ways over time. some of the thing the books makes me think a lot about, i was wondering if maybe he would like to talk a little bit about how it is you would describe the cost to the caregiver being different over time from the beginning to the ending of a caregiving cycle. and what you would say about coping. and about methods for coping and for managing burnout. >> that is a big question. i think it's multipronged to think about the cost of caregiving as you suggest. i'll kind of bracket and set aside i think we may touch later on this as well, very significant economic costs. one of the things i uncovered in my research is caregiving can really be a huge financial

hit to caregivers and families. i will bracket that an talk a little bit more about the emotional cost in the kinds of caregiving. you know, there can be the short sharp shock of being plunged into an emergency situation which is very challenging but also comes with an adrenaline burst that keeps a lot of caregivers going for the early stages. and then can be kind of a difficult experience when that ends. many, many people and up being in caregiving roles for years or decades. since the book came out i have heard for many caregivers. i'm sure there are many of you in the audience as well who have been in caregiving situations with people and

very long-term illness. long-term declines that particularly can be the case with dementia caregiving. on that is a slow grind to that has a long-term cost. it is really important to guard what time are what space you can as a caregiver. i think the longer the experience goes on, the more and more challenging that is. i'm really wary at the same time of saying take breaks. that is obviously not always accessible. one of the reasons i wrote the book is to make the systemic critique of why arthus things accessible? why are there such severe economic costs for families and individual caregivers are just trying to do the best they stand for their loved ones? why is there not a broader

system making that possible? why is it up to us as individuals to look out for our interest and find the time to get the night away. that is something that society needs to kind of step up and offered to keep this cost lower because it can lead very quickly i think to burn out. and another thing i wanted to call attention to in terms of long-term emotional cost is i was very fortunate that my caregiving situation, which is very much eased as my husband has regained functional independence, though he is still chronically ill, for many, many people a long and draining caregiving journey ends in grief. and that can be really hard to come back from. he plunged into mourning and

grief especially after a long and really difficult experience with caring for the person. i think it can be hard to process that. often the instinct is to move past after eight really, really hard experience. so i wanted to point that out. i am fortunate that was not my experience in caregiving. but can be an extra strain on the individual. >> host: so we got together last week. we had seen each other the beginning of the pandemic, how many times? maybe three times? 723. >> host: and we saw each other last week, we got to talking a little bit about again about

the evolution of the book. and about the shape that it is come to now is kind of a hybrid memoir and work of socio- criticism. we also talked about some of the particular challenges of writing a story that is not a unique story. and what it feels like and what it means we get to the point you realize the story you are telling is so much bound up in your individual experience connection to actually to many, many others. i want us to talk a little bit about that. what it's like to write a book that reaches in that way. that bridges between the two kinds of writings or those two kinds of discourse. and just what your thoughts

are on it now. now that it is out. >> that is a great question. it was really important to me this book and not just be a memoir strictly of my own caregiving experience. i don't think that would have that much to teach anybody who is not a caregiver in similar circumstances. and one of the things i learned in my research is arp does a lot of democratic work and researchers on caregivers. concluded their 53 million americans caring for an adult family member who needs assistance. so, there are 53 million other people out there with the story if not the same as, to mine. there are many, many, many more grueling caregiving tales out there. i'm sure many of you in the

audience have family experiences with challenging of caring for somebody you love. i what i really started thinking about was the tension between the individual and the broader society that i think in the united states our culture really leads towards individualistic expectations of everything. problems are the individual to solve. i family care crisis is the families to work out. and not toward bigger systemic solutions. i wanted my book in some ways to be a protect against that. that would show how we need to integrate a systemic analysis as well as an individual story. my story, what i hope it will do in the book is illustrates

the urgency in just one small way of a bigger problem. i should also say that i felt like i was a very privileged caregiver. i had a lot of family help. my in-laws were with us for very long time, providing assistance that i probably would have like ground without that. i hit other family help i had friends, many of you who are the audience who dropped off meals and offered to run errands. the community did step up and help me. i think than on a broad social level we need to replicate that act. we need to do that to help all caregivers. at one of the narrative of my book to bring all the strands together and try to make that argument and a broader way that spun out for my own individual experience.

>> you just started in the direction i was going to ask about which, what if anything you were particularly surprised to learn about caregiving statistically or otherwise. either in the united states or globally during this phase of writing that had to really broadening into research and thinking from a more systemic perspective? >> guest: i will start by saying i think i was most surprised by as an individual caregiver and they give a couple statistics and bigger facts that surprised me. i was most surprised by as it individual caregiver was just how much medical work the medical system expected me to it do at home with almost zero training. there were things where it was

like oh he's coming home on iv antibiotics so you'll be learning today, and the next 15 minutes how to administer those. i'm like are you kidding me? i don't how to do that. it was terrifying. slick introduced bacteria needed to go into a central line, that's a fairly low-level task compared to what many, many family caregivers are asked to provide to their loved ones every day. and to provide to really vulnerable ill people. and so i was really shocked at care gap family members were expected to fill out. that was something, i'm actually seeing some nods as i talk about that in the audience. so i sense many have experience with this. but until it's kind of put on you, it didn't really occur to me. i thought will they send a

nurse. they do not send a nurse you become the nurse. and in terms of bigger surprises or things that i learned, some of the economic statistics really shocked me. particularly the impact on women caregivers. and i should say, my book takes a deliberately feminist analysis on the problem. depending on the analysis of 61 -- 75% of family caregivers are women. so i'm not trying to discount the contribution of men which is significant. but is disproportionately female. i would argue that devaluing care in the undervaluing of care generally is connected with its connection with femininity. that women's labor is kind of expected to be free in these

situations. that has negative effects for both female and mail caregivers. immensely proportionate family caregivers have to reduce their hours or leave their work entirely. women who have been family caregivers and had to reduce their work hours are 2.5 times more likely to live in poverty in old age than their peers who were not family caregivers. that was one statistic that really leapt out at me. it's not just so you lose a few years of income it's losing paying into social security. losing out on pensions, and salary increases and it is a lifetime economic effect. it can kind of rob whole families of the opportunity to to build wealth. >> host: set leaping into the

future, i was going to ask the question, where did these solutions lie customer. >> guest: not enough words. not for the biggest question i feel like i could ask but that's the best version of it that i can bring into focus this afternoon when i was rereading the book in preparing for this conversation. where did these solutions lie? what direction do they lie? >> i think you can look at it two ways. you could look at as needing a culture change that can drive policy change or you can look at at needing policy change they can drag the culture along kicking and screaming into a better treating people. i tend to think especially right now when the pandemic and issues of care are such prominent issues that we have a window of opportunity that would really help support

caregivers. and support other people besides just caregivers. i look at really like three particular areas. the most obvious, something that is unbelievably overdue it shameful we do not have is universal paid leave her family caregivers. and sick people as well. the fact that the united states does not have paid leave him essentially made no federal progress on this issue since the '90s with the clinton era and the passage of unpaid family leave is pretty shameful. we really should be change that. there was originally paid leave in the relief bill. it fell out unfortunately. but that is a policy provision that would make a world of difference to people with

employment and offer other protections along those lines. i think that some form of economic compensation for caregivers is really important that exists and patch works and through medicaid for caregivers who are more economically challenged. does not relate so much for middle-class caregivers. but there are proposals for tax credit. i personally would love to see some direct pay program which i favor over tax credits it does not require you to have income to claimant. but he think anything could be a step in the right direction. i would also point to forms of universal basic income could be really helpful here. i mentioned in the book towards the end there is an experiment just down the road from us in california that some of the results have just

come in. some of the results really point to people being better able to take care of their loved ones with that extra in the case of $5 a month. people were spending it on family care. spending it to make their lives better in the lives of their care patients better. or talking pipedreams first of these are big, big things. but universal healthcare in the u.s. without u.s. healthcare families are vulnerable. caregivers spent in a normal amount of time just arranging for care. it makes for a lot of vulnerability and instability for people who are ill. for the people who are caring for them. at least two bankruptcy it leads to outcomes.

that's a broader look at health. i also think that if there were universal care to be fewer of those care gaps i talked about earlier. more integrated care more possibilities for getting people help when they need it that is not one 100% rely on just you note caregivers filling in gaps. i saw question pop up it's a really good one are there models for this and other countries? the answer is yes. >> i saw that question them wanted to do that too. other countries are look at this, tackling it doing it better. some are bringing new policy changes for the state of washington has passed some measures that are relief. japan is a really interesting example and that it has had to contend with the aging of its population much earlier than

we have. they have piloted some really innovative programs including like a system of caregiver credits where people can help people and then swap some for their own loved ones if they don't earn live near the loved ones. i talk about this in the conclusion to my book. there are also, all the countries with the social safety net are doing some version of some of the things that i just spoke about. >> host: sarah peterson asks is the copy of arty toast been sent to the white house? [laughter] >> hi sarah not but i know but i'll tell my publicist. [laughter] >> host: there is a question from esther chapman, can you talk more about what you learned as a caregiver about

advocating in the healthcare system and how caregivers learn that skill besides learning at the hard way? >> i definitely learned the hard way. i really tried to go in there and look professional. not professional at least kind of put together and be somebody who's trustworthy, have my notebook and try to get that respect so i would seem kind of a partner to the physicians and not just some lady who was along for the ride. i think there is a lot of -- for me i encountered a lot of being taken for granted as like you're here to the things that need to get done. we are just going to tell you what this are in your going to do them. that was unstated. pushing back was challenging. it's hard to push back against the whole big system. brad was being treated here in sacramento at uc davis medical

center. that place is a bureaucratic maze. is a teaching hospital which is great rate which provided us with a lot of access to amazing care. it was also incredibly hard to figure out. like who is the hospital's question what were they do? it turns out the hospitalist is the most important person for you to know about on the unit where your husband is staying because they decide who gets discharged when. there's all these critical things that like for me it was really important to find a nurse or somebody who was friendly and get the walk-through. and try to figure it out. one of the things that i can talk a little bit about in the book and i really think is that we need more proactive caregiver education. there needs to be more social workers, more patient

navigators, or people doing outreach. to make that learning curve for new patients and new caregivers less steep. it is very intimidating. entering into a vast unknown system. and it can be really hard to get the courage of speaking up. systemic i am just monitoring the chat. i saw a question from jana who would love to hear you talk about the process of weaving the research into your personal story. >> that is a great question. i had a big, i wish i could turn my monitor insured is on the wall. i've now taken it down. i had a huge wall size schedule for writing the book when i wrote it. and what i did, i had a lot of personal writings i had been

doing through the most intense part of brad's illness. sometimes were just diary entry. before i ever wrote the book proposal, i had the backbone of the memoir material. and a lot of that was really rough, not something i would have used in the book the way it was. but it formed a kind of a narrative arc. when i sat down after the book was under contract and is sitting down to really produce the drafts, i ended up getting all of the pieces of writing i had produced during all of brad's illness and the time leading up to it in my book proposal per day made a giant outline in a folder tree form on my hard drive. those are not interested in this all go through this

quickly. and so each chapter had a run materials folder that was sometimes just like paragraphs and paragraphs i was going to stitch together. and then i wrote the book in order chapter by chapter and had a plan and outline but put those pieces in together. some of the writing i had from the early days was also based on blogs that brad and i originally jointly kept straight as he got really ill during a stem cell transplant i was just keeping it was for communicating with family and friends during the most intense parts of his illness. because one peace of caregiver labor and did not talk about before was keeping in touch with families and friends and keeping them updated. which is necessary but can be very time-consuming. and also draining part to

restate things and answer questions. we kept a blog with the information and updates on how he was doing. so i had kind of a chronological, icy chat that came up and said emotionally is awesome. yes emotion exhausting for sure. i had those writings. i had kind of rant issued writings i was working with. and then, i did see the research as i went to the writing process. and just tried to tie everything in together. i was doing it piece-by-piece and i went on different themes. trying to weave those in and out so that each chapter had a balance of the personal and research material. there is kind of a third strand as well that was the literary material analysis. i did not want anything to

like a chapter of my dissertation work was like all literature. i did want to have those strands threaded through. so, it was kind of a just taking it chapter by chapter trying to put those together. there is a major revision of the first time so i got a second crack at it. a time to see it like oh here are the goes on for pages and pages about statistics. he needs get back to the story 's >> i just noticed i think is a good follow-up question in the chat. at one point during this journey did you decide to write a book. was it a way to process what you're going through? or did you also know you wanted to write an advocacy or policy book? >> i did not always know that. i think it evolved out of the writing that i was doing.

and also it evolved out of looking for a book like this. in some ways i wrote the book i needed to read when it was really hard. i wrote the book i hopeful other caregivers feel seen, field that validated especially in the hard and challenging emotions which are often kind of smoothed over and glossed over unpopular narratives run caregiving. you think of movies about caregiving that come a sentimental conclusion or something like that. there kind of this nobility sense of noble self-sacrifice. it is a virtue. it absolutely can be a noble self-sacrifice. it's also hard and people are going to experience negative emotions around something that can be such a draining role.

i think a lot of people need to feel seen in that. and i also know, felt like i needed to look at why it was so hard. and think about you know, what are the ways people are not being supported and raise a voice for that as i started to emerge from the intensity of really difficult caregiving. i realize that one of the reasons this issue is a little bit under discussed despite how very many people are caregivers, is that caregivers are largely too busy should make a public advocacy statement about it. there are some great organizations working in the space. but most people who are caring for a family member, especially those the most burnt out and stressed but are

not going to have time to merge on washington, called their congressperson every day or two other kinds of organizing that can affect policy change. i am not an organizer. but i can tell the story, that is what i tried to do to help. to help with this issue. >> i would argue that telling a story is one way to think about organization. stories are organizations. i am just looking for more questions in the chat. i know are getting pretty close to 7:00 p.m. here. could you talk about the language of illness and care? >> i see that is from my friend lisa jenkins in australia, hi lisa thank you.

lisa is zooming in from the future, tomorrow. [laughter] i think that i see lisa mentioned talk of pain as a battle. all kind of focus in on that a little bit. i think that military metaphors in the idf fight around care and illness can be really damaging for people. i adopted a little bit in the book when i talk about feeling what collateral damage as a caregiver. he also tried to have some distance on that in critique that language a little bit at the same time. because i think it is -- it can really be harmful for people to frame an illness as a fight. it's not a fair fight. it's not a thing where you have an enemy that you could defeat if you just try hard enough. it doesn't disservice from

people who are suffering from a condition to talk about them as if they lost a battle with cancer. it's not something you can win by trying harder. and caregiving also is not something you can necessarily win by trying harder. i think there's a lot of things we can re-examine and language we use casually around care and illness. i had a couple weeks ago in time magazine tongue but the language of positivity around care and illness. the kind of like you've got to stay positive, everything happens for a reason. idle interview have read kate fuller's great book called that, everything happens for a reason. that's another lie that nearly killed me think i think i'm courting that right. there's a great scene and there were her husband summit comes the door bringing them a

castro everything happens for reason. the husband looks at whoever's bring it in this like what is the reason my wife appears to be dying. there is not a good reason. and i think that thinking critically about some of those language choices can be one way of affirming both caregivers and the ill or disabled people they are caring for. i have been in other lives i've loved. my apologies. [laughter] >> it's hard to accept help and often was for me.

that's an area could've examined even more in the book. as before doing things for ourselves we are to refrain that. : : : help to people and give a little solace where i can and it can be challenging because caregiving often seems like a closed system, and also if you've been

entrusted with the kef knowledge base, and the civics of medical care that i talked about earlier, that can feel really risky to relinquish or to let that go as well. so i think there's a lot of challenges around, around that. >> heidi do we have a link in the chat that will help people buy the book? >> i've put it earlier but let me pay here -- >> okay. i also have a -- winner of the grub hub randomly selected by me by closing my eyes and scrolling -- melanie madden. yay melanie so if you could

privately message me on this chat here your mailing address, i will pass that on to kate, and then she'll get your gift certificate off. so hopefully -- on here. let me just verify that here. >> yeah. ten minutes ago. she's there. she's there. >> i wanted to if i could just answer one more question because i pulled up a little bit in the chat i saw a great question that i would love to address from naomi williams another sacramento author who is wonderful and she talked a little bit about -- you know thatty acknowledged privilege in the book, and talked some about how the burdens of caregiving can fall disproportionately not just on women but particularly women of color and marginalize groups and i would love to address that because the research really

shows that that is very much the case. and that can kind of fall in two ways first of all marginalized with fewer resources are disproportionately economically harmed by some of the really difficult challenges of caregiving, people in -- you know, jobs where they have to be present, you know, in essential workers are much less likely to be able to juggle the demands of caregiving alongside their work life, and thus are more likely to lose employment because of it. and then also -- care work haven't talked about but an important piece of the general problems that undervaluing of care of all kinds like professional paid care work in the home -- is often a really unstable employment, you know, we employed care workers when

needed 24-hour care and was at home and not corp.ed by insurance so we were paying directly out of the pocket, and you know, those -- those jobs tend to be very disproportionately done by women of color noncitizens, and there are very few employment protections from them so i went for this so i wanted to address that -- that question because i think it is a really critical piece of the general question of how care operates in our society. >> thank you for letting me jump back on that soap box. >> no problem. no problem. well thank you, kate, this was really informative. i enjoyed it a lot to hear that not only l as a woman, i was not -- i have not had to be a caretaker

other than a mom. but my husband had to be a caretaker of me for a while there when i had a series of mrsa infections they kept coming more and more out and when you had mentioned that a lot of times caregivers suddenly become nurses and -- physicians assistants and he found himself in that role of, you know, having to do stuff that no person should ever have to do where open wounds and all of that. so i'm sure that he had a lot of that caregiver fatigue and we're over that hump now. for now -- but it's a very real thing for men and for women. so i'm really glad that you wrote this book about it. so -- >> well thank you. thank you so much. i'm, you know, so grateful to all of you for coming. it is great to see so many names i'm sorry i didn't get to shout

out everybody individually. but i'm -- you know, so touched that you all have been here and ask such great questions, and shown up on your saturday night. thank you. >> congratulation its kate. >> thank you. >> thank you ray for interviewing dish really enjoyed your very laid back and comfortable style. [laughter] >> hiding first person to call me laid back or comfortable my entire lifelong. [laughter] all right >> if you happen to be from sacramento pop on over to our store we've been open pretty much since covid began. but in a very limited capacity, and it has been really nice to see more sacramento out and about now that we're in the red tier. we're still, obviously, requiring mask in the store and

don't let anymore people than we have been since probably early summer last summer. so -- but -- certainly enough people to shop the shelves and it is always fun to visit a bookstore. so if you're local come on in we would love to meet you so -- that concludes our saturday evening. i thank you guys for joining us i'm really -- glad to see a nice crowd here. for kate. >> have a good weekend. >> anyone who would like their copy signed they get one if you -- >> yes. if you're not local i have these book stickers that i can sign and pop in the mail for you which i would love to do so -- >> they're cutest they have a post input on them. >> so you can message me on social media or e-mail or wherever and -- yeah. >> that we get into the store, kate will be coming in to sign them.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ during event hosted by national press club in washington, d.c., california based journalist dan discuss vice president kamala harris's early political career. >> it is apparent that she rubbed people wrong on the hill that she was -- that she could be brusque. she didn't follow certain protocols. you know, she did reach out to

john mccain. she reached out to others, but, you know, she -- she can be a little -- and i think folks, folks on the hill maybe saw some of that. that said, she can be incredibly charming. so and she's also an agile thinker. she, you know, if there are, if there are ways to find common ground i think she can be helpful. watch the rest of this program at booktv.org search for dan moran or title of the book kamala way searching box at the top of the page. a look now at publishing century news ww norton halted blake bailey recent biography of phillip roth following sexual

assault officers against author publisher stopped at 10,000 copy second precincting of the book after it landed on several best seller list pulled all promotion. this deny charges and is called them, quote, categorially false and liablist. publisherrers weekly recently reported on future of in person author events in wake of the covid-19 pandemic. the publishing industry news source reached out to several bookstore and libraries and publishers to get their thoughts on the return of touring authors and found that, quote, for the moment, publishers and book sellers are willing to stick with virtual talks and readings and growing number of acknowledge online events are becoming bit stale. in other news, simon and shuter rebuff a petition from some of its employees to stop publishing books by arts with ties to the trump administration. including recent two book deal with former vice president mike pence. ceo jonathon karp responded to the petition in a letter to staff, quote, as a publisher in this polarized era we have

outrage from both sides of the political divide from different stwengt city and groups. but we come to work each day to publish not cancel which is the most extreme decision a publisher can make and one that runs counter to very core of our mission to publish a diversity of voices and perspectives. and the late mystery writer agatha home is for sale five bedroom house that fits to england is listed for just over it 2.7 million pounds which is about 3.8 million dollars. agatha kristy author of 80 books including murder on orient express she died in 1976 at the age of 85. book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news you can also watch all of our past programs any time at booktv.org. ♪ ♪ good afternoon walter distinguished fellow here at the hudson institute i like to welcome josh rogen to this book forum on occasion o