>> hello, everyone. thank you for tuning in. on behalf of the bookstore i am so pleased to welcome you to tonight's events with wendy lower discussing her latest book

the ravine a family of photographs and the holocaust massacre revealed. joined in conversation by joshua rubenstein. virtual events like tonight we continue to bring authors and their works to the new digital community during these challenging times. spring season is in full swing so make sure you check out the event schedule where you can also sign up for a newsletter and browse the shelves from home. the discussion will conclude with questions. if you have a question at any time during the talk tonight go to the q and a button on the screen and we will get through as many as time allows and if you would like to purchase a copy there will be a link in the chat where you can purchase. thank you especially during this difficult time for spaces like the local bookstore. there will also be a link in the donation if you would like to get additional support to the bookstore and purchases and

financial contributions to make this series possible and now more than ever to support the future of the landmark independent bookstore. thank you so much for tuning in and support of the authors and incredible staff of booksellers at the bookstore we sincerely appreciate your support especially now. and as you may have experienced in virtual gatherings this past year, technical issues may arise and if they do we will do our best to resolve it as quickly as we can thank you for your patience and understanding and now i'm pleased to introduce today's speaker. wendy lower is the william rosenberg scholar at yale university and director for the center for human rights. she is the author of the empire building and holocaust in ukraine, the diary of the holocaust and coeditor of ukraine. her book german women and the nazi killing field were finalists for the book award and has been translated into 23

different languages. it is a spectacular book on a subject that is often overlooked by holocaust historians. joshua rubenstein is on the staff of amnesty international usa from 1975 to 2012 as the northeast regional director. he is an associate of the davis center for russian and eurasian studies at harvard. joshua was the author and editor of many books including secret program the postwar inquisition of the jewish anti-fascist committee which received a national jewish book award and last day fall when that has been published in line languages. today they are discussing the ravine. it starts with a picture of a nightmare. a mother and two children on the brink of murder. through wendy's forensic archival detective work we took her through the ukraine,

germany, slovakia, israel and the u.s. she recovers astonishing layers of details exploring the open massacres in ukraine as she seeks to find the identities of the family, their killers and the photographer. through this image, when b unlocks a new understanding of the place of the family unit and ideology of the genocide. now i will turn things over to the authors. when dee and joshua, thank you for being here this evening. >> thank you. >> hello, audrey. it's wonderful to be here. >> hi, wendy. how are you? >> i'm good. >> congratulations on your book. >> thank you. >> let me say a few words of introduction. we are talking about one of many killings that took place during the war, targeting jews on the eastern front. for many people who know about the holocaust, the typical image is a story of dutch jews in amsterdam who were hunted down,

discovered and sent to the killing centers in poland. more people have heard of places like auschwitz, but the killings on the eastern front, german occupied soviet territory are less well known. .. >> they occupied paris and took over france then began the battle to invade great britain which failed. then surprising stall in june 1941 to launch an enormous invasion into soviet territory.

what took place in the initial months after june 22nd, 1941, staggers the imagination. soviet defenses collapsed allowing the german army to advance 350 miles in the first ten days capturing on june 24th capturing in russia july 28 and then captured september 19 and the enormous ambassador started ten days later with 37000 jews were killed over two days of continuous shooting. with that 900 days c's began on september 8 so all of this took place in just months of the german invasion of soviet territories. so we are talking about one of thousands and thousands of killings that took place the

german occupied soviet territory that as many as two.5 million of the 6 million jews killed during the holocaust are actually residents of the soviet union as defined by the borders june 1941. so tell us how do you focus your scholarly career on the holocaust and went inspired you to write the revealing quick. >> thank you for that question. my journey into holocaust began in the late eighties or early nineties and it coincided with the collapse of the soviet union. i didn't go into graduate school with the intention of writing these books in doing this research i had an interest in nazi germany and i was a history major and undergraduate.

but these global events started to happen while i was in the school that opened up opportunities for me in the territory of the former soviet union. my provides are - - advisers were written on himmler had worked in the archive in the former ukraine where he had headquarters during the war not too far from hitler. in the summer 1982 my first year graduate school, i went to the archives and drove there with a friend and started to collect documentation and much of that went toward my a dissertation but also himmler's theory and not so much the origin of this book but it brought me to this location to be in touch with the witnesses and the jewish community and gave me a whole new perspective on the

holocaust as it occurred outside the system or in the blood land as they are called. >> and you came across a particular photograph. >> during the course of my education and career in holocaust studies working at the holocaust museum in washington dc when i worked on these exhibits and then i would go on to direct at the mandela center a few years, i became immersed in the material of the evidence whether the large cartography on display the visual evidence, the artifacts, the testimony. i was working in the archives of my dissertation but then in

a public museum and institution where storytelling is driven by the multimedia how things are brought together on different artifacts and images and they started to notice how certain images became iconic 11 look in textbooks and see the same images and realize on the one hand these were broadened illustrations. and second, there was a discussion what is ethical or sensitivities to display them. as a teacher and professor and the challenges become part of my thinking and intellectual curiosity.

i would add at the end in real life outside the classroom into the archives becoming increasingly aware of the power of the image in the digital age in the internet age and mutual culture with the advent of photography but increasingly not what i had as a student growing up and we needed to look more carefully at how we are using images in the classroom. photograph of suffering or violence we should warn the audience today we will be looking at graphic images but they propel people into action humanitarian action social justice campaigns like the naked girl attacked or the little boy who washed up on the beach.

that high-end the discussion of the refugee crisis in europe. got me thinking of images not only as source material for research but also the power of imagery and an agent of change whether the pursuit of justice or teaching but a power in the image i wanted to study more closely. >> you have images you would like to share with us this evening. >> yes. these are some images that are iconic we see on display in museums and in books. it is a shorthand or instant recall when i talk to my students tell me what you know about the holocaust they

usually know these images but not with much detail that this is our way we collectively remember a comment the holocaust remember through the use images unlike the written word or the not see documents so i was fascinated by that but these images with the exception of this one many of them depict the history and passive ways or static ways or even bones. this one is very famous actually the woman with the child here in southern ukraine but the rest of the family is

here i believe they are digging i think they are forced to dig their own grave. here the boy with the warsaw ghetto an important image. this is cropped, not see photo album and east german caught up with him and convicted him and they use this image to find him so it's also about the pursuit of justice. the image that is the subject of my book it was just so astounding and disturbing and haunting to me with many ways to describe it since 2009 when it was first brought to my attention. i was in the archives of the holocaust museum working on another case it was just

serendipity not even living in dc i was in germany and these two journalist arrived that day in august they had come from prod they had this image it's very common people come to the museum they have something they want to share or find out more and they draw the resources they are on-site. my colleague was there and the journalist to brought the image on earth did from the kgb image hadn't seen the light of day and it was not used in any war crimes against those in the image. they have the photograph. the name of the photographer. and the date, october 13, 1941

in the photograph was taken in ukraine 100 miles west of kyiv. so that is what started me on this research journey that culminated in the book through that ravine. what did i find particularly striking on this image. feel free to interrupt at any time. i know you have read the book as well. i started to pick apart the pieces and thought how they were representative to me as far as what we know of holocaust memorialization the empty shoes. i start with that in the in the book with the shoes and if we have time i will read from the epilogue and the meaning

metaphor of the shoes there are papers strewn about if you look closely now with the advent of digital technology to zoom in and zoom out you can see the bullet casings. the environment. i had the advantage when i started the project in 2009 the field of holocaust studies have advanced during my lifetime into interdisciplinary types of projects of collaborative projects and environmental history has made some good inroads into holocaust studies in forensic and how the nazis put them to work we can see the reviewing that is crumbling down that was very

deliberate the germans force them to stand on the precipice they would use a stick and push them in so they would fall into the pit into the mass grave than using the soil to cover them up and suffocate them if they were still alive it is broad daylight obviously you have onlookers and witnesses in a forest setting what were not due to the landscape and terrain as far as decomposition and have a chapter in that about the train and finding clues they are. the collaborators. this image of collaboration to ukrainians wearing army coats recruited on the spot and east

german officials with the insignia and then the man in the back pointing their guns creating an expression the act of murder. shoulder to shoulder they don't speak the same language it is ukrainian and german but they are just put together at this moment and they know what to do. they can still communicate what to do with that shared anti-semitism ultimately looking with the ballistics person to interpret the blast was typical of execution with multiple firings in a halo

over her head. sorry to sound so scientific but this is how i was trying to get at what happened. and to try to restore the names of these victims. this is not how they wanted to be photographed their last minutes of life so what do we do when we find a picture like this and how do we respond with evidence of murder holding his hand and barefoot in the polkadot dress and shoes in the position she is in ultimately discovering there was another soul on her lap i can tell from her posture to use the technology it was another child. so these were the first kinds of reactions that i had and

what could potentially be discovered in this photo to figure out what happened before and during and after what their names and what happened to them after the war and could those killers be brought to justice? was working on a case when i first found this i was upset i couldn't identify any remaining perpetrators in one of the ukrainian killers was very young. he was a minor at the time. seventeen years old. i thought the first thing i needed to do, these victims are gone. i could pursue their identity for that historical justice

that may be one of the perpetrators is still alive. i tried to find the documentation that might identify the perpetrators. >> how could you do that so many years later? >> this is where knowing through colleagues because this is an endeavor that requires many languages. the holocaust as we are coming to realize especially the opening of all the archives from the soviet union is a european story. a big german led campaign organized by the germans but they had so many followers and so many participants and collaborators. so i had to go through the german documentation and look for those units to figure out

who was in the town at the time. what army units, police unit. these uniforms are not regular german military. they are not order police they have different markings on the sleeves. markings and insignias are different. it took me a while to figure that out. it took years to determine it was not a custom unit because the photographer in an interesting moment when questioned about this photograph in 1943, mentioned an important detail that the germans in the photograph worked for the finance ministry they were normally there checking packages at the train station at the post

office and they volunteered they were recruited on the spot they sought as an opportunity and they were anti- somatic within their unit. >> how did you come across the name of the photographer? >> that had been part this picture was taken after the war actually there he is with his camera. that was part of the archival records. because the photographer was born in 1916. twenty-five years old when he took that picture. in it turns out he did not want to be in the war. looking at that photograph the images so clear and then to compelled to follow that a static. he didn't have a zoom lens so

we know he was standing close to the killing. maybe 20 feet. when he was questioned in 43 by the jewish affairs police office, he mentioned there were the finance guards that were there which was important and then described what happened that day and why when he heard from his barracks the sound of the shooting and the screaming, he went to go see what was happening with the camera had one - - comrade and grabbed his camera. he was an avid photographer. this is the age of the portable camera. the most photographed war. it was unprecedented a number of images there were deliberately embedded photojournalist. they were pleased to be

photographing these they just didn't want the photos of the crimes to go into circulation to be shared is that what insight revenge and activism and the photographer was a resistance fighter. he was sent into the came on - - campaign he hated the fascist. he hated the uniforms. he had no choice. he was part of the guard unit and took the picture in his moment to say this is not what i believe in. this is not what i want to continue to participate and at that point he was writing letters to his wife my hair is turning gray. blackness is going into my brain. then he got out of continued military service.

he went back but not to the front was checked into the asylum and he and his wife carry out she pretended that he was sick and played along. he took these photographs to warn them not to go to the east when the deportations were happening and actually hit a jewish family in the attic. the head of the family was the ob/gyn and delivered his son. so there are surprises. you think whoever took this photograph must have been collaborating further humiliating the victims in such close proximity. he's allowed to take them he is there in uniform but in

fact that is not him when we interviewed the family they confirmed the portrait of him and i was very fortunate to get access to the camera and his personal papers. >> we the first to identify the perpetrators or had someone ballot then held accountable already? >> there is a story of justice on the individuals. it is interesting. the photographer himself is questioned there is the kgb authority after the war in 1958 and 59 going after the collaborators he manages to escape any prosecution. ultimately he is recognized for his resistance efforts and received commendations.

so then he donates his camera to the history of judaism which is why i have that opportunity to inspect it. as for the other killers, the germans, a representative story in a way as far as the soviets tracking down ukrainians and prosecuting and convicting them because they were very aggressively going after the traders to the homeland but the west german's were most and it up after the war, the only thing we know really know about them was generated by an event in 1969. one of the members of the customs guard unit walked into a police station at night. after hours and said this man working at the desk is officer

on duty i would like to report a crime. so he has a police report from 1969 the person says 20 years ago i was in this town in russia and this is what happened. he identifies the two killers in the photo but they didn't have the image to look at by have the advantage of that historian to compare the image with the german interrogation and of course they denied participating denied the shooting. provided more details about what happened but basically they perjured themselves if that photograph was available to west german's and their investigation maybe the outcome would have been different. >> what about ukrainian collaborators? were any of them held

accountable quick. >> yes. the prosecutor in the neighboring districts to give you an idea geographically this is 17 century map and you wish settlement so this little town at the most has 4000 jews maybe 1000 were left when the nazis arrived but it is a very important historic site a famous ethnographer traveled to collect stories and try to capture and preserve the yiddish and way of life of that community that was disappearing through immigration and then the first world war was another blow to the community and the soviets that followed.

so here we have the town here's what look like when i went back the first time in 2014. this was a very vibrant marketplace and what happens when not only the genocide during the second world war with the collapse of the system initially or of that system economically you can see after all the hyperinflation from the ukraine in the nineties. but this is where the jews were gathered the night before the shooting that you see in the photograph. and ukrainian policeman that were in the photograph were tracked down in 1985. it's incredible this thousands and thousands of pages a

thorough investigation compared to the west german one. and the soviet prosecutors down to three killers. there are two in the picture but there was a third. and the two who were adults at the time were executed by firing squad january, 1987. the other killer was given a sentence and sent to the russian prison system. we don't know what happened to him but this case closed and 87 i was there in the summer of 92. ukraine got independence august of 91. it's one of the last cases in the soviet union pertaining to the holocaust. the soviets didn't have the photo or this image. that when you read the trial

record in the testimony from the soviet case, it is a description of this image. it matches the image in the prosecutor forced the ukrainians to reenact what happened. this is actually the map they created in that case the center of town to show you where the memorial is with the champagne bottle and the jews were forced to walk in this direction the prosecutor team drew this out this is the path that the family was forced to walk this is the actual park. this is the killing site pictured. >> certainly part of the story which may surprise our listeners the soviet union after world war ii is it is a began liberating territory from the germans began to look

for collaborators there were trials in ukraine and russia proper in the baltic area and hundreds and hundreds of trials were held after the war and the one you just referred to take place 40 years later. in addition to nürnberg and many prosecutions in germany, the soviet government also to one extent or another in its own way did try to hold collaborators accountable. this is just one example. >> yes. there were about 30 ukrainians. there was no german presents really. they didn't have a real outpost there was no access or no ss officers they came into town on that sunday night.

the german customs officials are playing cards and they said what are you doing in this town who wants to do this tomorrow and they start a whole process a step-by-step process the mass shootings the local participate population participates but they're very organized they calculate the victims and measure how large of volume. it is a local division of labor they sourced the ukrainians we interviewed the witnesses and participants who were forced to dig the grave into clean up the area.

so the system was developed very quickly in the summer 41 to the extent with more german forces like ss and others, carry out the much larger mass shootings. but this is the smaller scale version but as you mentioned in the beginning, we now know almost anywhere there was a jewish community that killers went to them is not that the jews were deported but the killers went to those locations carrying out the mass shootings quickly and very little traces. the bullet casings in the landscape very little documentation. the german documentation for this killing there's that one

file in 69 but i didn't find anything about the actual murder. >> you referred to the fact many german soldiers took photographs in spite of the fact officially they were discouraged from taking photographs and certainly from circulating the photographs to family back home. in your book you refer to a prosecution of one german officer that was prosecuted for an atrocity photo he shared with his family. tell us about that. >> this is a case it is astounding because he was found guilty of excessive barbarism and worthy of a man in uniform and that excessive

barbarism included taking tasteless pictures including the one of the naked jewish woman and bragging about these photos to his wife and friends back in germany. by taking photographs of the incident were having photographs taken and developed and showing them off, guilty of disobedience. that he wasn't convicted of murder where the actual killing of the jews. this is a very rare wartime case this is one of the few times one of the officers is put on trial is not about killing them per se it was a state policy but against the rules to take pictures and then show them around and then he was issuing orders as soon as a mass murderer started and

then not taking photos and banning the photography but they cannot control that. they were encouraging people to take pictures of the war as a glorious chapter in history and providing cheap handheld cameras so it was a contradiction of efforts so they had these photographs but many were destroyed because they were incriminating or confiscated by the ss police. it is a rare photograph. people are surprised by that they assume there are a lot of photographs of the holocaust the very few that are this incriminating to show the killing. the photographer took at least five.

this was the main photograph that he took but he took others to show the process how things were carried out step-by-step. >> marking the 75th anniversary of the international military trial in nuremberg the first the most famous that were organized they are. what is the legacy of nürnberg today? >> on the visual side, talking about nuremberg, it is an interesting example of the use of photography even film in the trial and others have written about that. it's important to point out some of the first images of the holocaust the underground systematically collecting these atrocity images on dead soldiers or wherever they

found them, jews themselves already were part of the world of photography they had studios before the war and had that skill. so they were secretly taking pictures in the ghetto. so these photos are running around trying to get these images. so the pursuit of justice was a part of how jews responded as these atrocities were unfolding. and it was tricky because the war contained that visual as a competition that's the money shot on the american side so it is very much a visual war

with the campaign. so with nuremberg when the allies undertook this massive international trial, these images were very much a part how the case was prosecuted and how people came to discover the holocaust and even our memory. there is a very important image from the epstein family and the book has just come out about that i just saw this morning that it is released and that was part of the nuremberg communication of evidence. so the way that prosecutors put their cases together and all the resources they do upon with images and testimony, they built an

archive with audio, recordings of the nuremberg trial. the story of justice and the introduction of these crimes against humanity and the word genocide introduced is all part of the legacy of nürnberg but as far as the evidence collected under incredible circumstances germany was bombed and resources were hard to come by and then walking through the bubble it's an incredible story. but the legacy for me as a historian is the amazing amount of material as a prosecutors came to discover what we know today. they knew early on this would

be a legacy of the third reich and they wrote about that they were preparing for trial it became very clear this was the crime of all crimes that the nazis had committed. >> thank you. we have questions from the audience will turn to audrey to help introduce those questions. >> hello. we have a number of questions. i recall the warsaw ghetto does that connect to the notion of atrocity photography? >> yes. there were photos a lot of different photos taken in the warsaw ghetto. that was 1940 so the end of the war and then the wii

occupation of warsaw by the soviets. i think the participant may be referring to the stroop valve and that was also part of the nuremberg trials brought into evidence and that is a classic example of how german officials put photo albums together as a culture of administrative bragging to work towards a superior that those in case one - - those were in charge had the destruction, his work photographed and documented input into a photo album and then presented it to his boss. this is what i did. this also happened in auschwitz a new album has emerged that came out from

under the sink of a former con on - - commandant it's in german now hopefully it will come out and english and that was created to show off the operations and also showing very clearly the collaboration and camaraderie in the german officials they are. so we have hundreds of these albums created by nazi officials and they are critical to the understanding of these operations and murders. >> you have so much investigation from just one photograph is that the same possibility as other

atrocities? >> yes. in fact i start the book by posing a question what do you do when you discover a photograph of murder? of any murder that has occurred historically whether a lynching or from genocide or any piece of evidence like that. how do you respond to that in the first place? perhaps you start that investigation and in a historical way. that is what set me off on this path so clearly was an image of murder. i wasn't solving the murder we know what happened in the holocaust but actually trying to restore that history. and the biggest challenge was to try to find the family at

the center of the photograph which turned out to be the hardest task. that surprised me. i thought it would be easier to find the family. the find i couldn't with 100 percent certainty identify the family. i came very close. it made me paz as far as the reality of genocide which is completely racial and suppression in this research tries to fight against that with the identity of the victims that was supposed to be lost to us we have people missing and no one really came forward as i can tell to claim this family is missing. i may have found the cousin of the little boy. but of the victims we are not registered as missing and that

is a big part of the genocide. and we need to find out what happened to them and find out who they are as an active prevention and understanding what happened. >> you have a photograph of the family? >> i have this photograph is as close as i got. and another very rare photograph the one of the murder the focus of the book incredibly rare action shot in the incredibly rare image family portrait from 1941. for what was left and taken a month or two months between

july and october 41. the women and children were left in the men were killed or evacuated. is just raking as i go to these pages of testimony that a cousin of these children who evacuated with her family and then came back after the war, she was only five years old when she was evacuated. it was hard for her to identify the people in the image but was given this photograph this is what's left of your family. she attached it to a page of testimony she deposited in just declared i had a family that was killed in the park and shot october 1941. i visited with her.

the stories that she told me match with others collected. but she couldn't say for certain that image that family image an employee in child is not the same. it would be this woman in these two children. >> that makes me emotional. >> it's a beautiful photograph. >> we have a few more questions. >> one of the striking things of the photograph there is no other victims in view. were they standing and watching? >> yes. this is why the book at the

end as far as the empty shoes the knowledge and the victims who we cannot see, the many who were murdered and remain missing. and in my book i go to the list of the other victims and describe how they were brought to that site and then you can read that there are victims in the photograph are a part of this group in this community and the other victims were standing there by. in fact the germans miscalculated the number they could round up that day. and the action had to stop and those that had not been shot were in this spot and had to wait while the ukrainian girls and jewish men were shot

quickly dug two more trenches. somewhere between 20300 were shot that day. >> photography has an active resistance did occur in the holocaust such as the photos do you know of more quick. >> i will defer but on the eastern front, there are many photographers in the red army and many happen to be jewish. they took photos of liberation moments. famous set of photographs in crimea.

it is a little-known fact probably the first master site to be found to be discovered by the allies was early january 42. crimea was occupied by the germans they killed about 7000 - - 7000 jews the soviet army counterattacked and then liberated the territory that the germans had not managed to bury the victims so we have photographs of that massacre very soon after it took place in the germans counterattack and took control of crimea again and wasn't liberated until later in the war. that's an interesting moment in time and that massacre was documented by soviet jewish photographers commemorated by the soviet jewish officer who was a poet and that was widely

reported in the soviet press 1942. the issue of photography and visual evidence enters into our consciousness especially on the eastern front very early. then of course once the allies in the west begin liberating territory in germany and the soviets moved into poland and then auschwitz january 45 there is a tremendous amount of visual photography that coincides with the liberation with the liberators found. there we have newsreels as well. >> yes. there is a lot in circulation and private settings as well. had the opportunity i completely agree these are out

there. they are used by propaganda ministry and they are used immediately as the allies with psychological warfare. and then used to reeducate the germans to confront the atrocities campaign. look at this. those images that was immediately distributed in 44 i'm sorry 45 as part of the reeducation campaign. imagery is out there it's in people's pockets and in their home interviewed a woman outside of doc out one —-dash doc out who was a technician on - - a technician at the time and she told me she was

developing prints from soldiers who came back and the atrocity photography with emaciated pows, killings. and she was part of the resistance sharing those images with the people who were working in the field she was hiding from those images in her beehive back from chavez of nokia so this is the thing the nazis were trying to prevent because it is such a powerful piece of evidence. and survivors themselves. i was curious about the use and the sensitivities of using

them and respecting the survivor community i was surprised when i went to the video testimony at usc. at the end of the testimonies if you look at the notes with the family photographs at the end in a tribute to the survivors to restore their lives, very often during the interviews the survivors will hold up and atrocity photo sometimes it's the same photo it's been reproduced so many times they hold it up and put in front of the camera sometimes the interviewer in the nineties will look away and the survivor says look at this. this is what happened to us. don't forget. it is an interesting

discussion. who is speaking on behalf of who and what is appropriate? i don't have an answer. my book is i think they should be handled with care in deeply research because there are stories to be told they are shocking and upsetting that it is the reality of the holocaust and what happened. >> absolutely but you could agree you are fighting for history and memory. the most important thing is we remember and not forget. want to give you the final word thank you so much for pursuing this history because it is so powerful. thank you. i don't have any parting

words. i have talked so much i just appreciate the opportunity. i am so astounded by the reaction to this book. people are sharing their stories. e-mails i have been getting. sorry i cannot respond to the mall. but it can be propel as an agent of change to open new discoveries so it is fascinating a photo like this so central to this man's life and his active resistance is now a vehicle to share the stories and how these photographs can be a form of address for these historical crimes. >> thank you so much for

coming and speaking and giving your time. thank you to everyone tuning in for on - - from home and the incredible staff at harvard bookstore. check out the chat if you're interested in supporting wendy and harvard bookstore and pick up a cough one - - a copy of the ravine it is historic how important it is. shop local from

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