that could be part of that training that i'm talking about. >> host: last question before you go up because you representative something entire state of montana. montana is known as the treasure state and big sky country. is that correct? >> guest: is one more correct? >> host: do you prefer one or the other? >> guest: i prefer big sky country. ... night, watching a thunderstorm, many, many miles away. i was watching the lightning flashed down against the ground, and you could see the rain falling. it was so far away that you cannot even hear the claps of thunder. that is a big sky. host: matt rosendale represents montana in the house, republi continues. host: danielle douglas-gabriel is a higher educ >> thank you, john. danielle douglas-gabriel is higher education reporter for

the "washington post." thanks for being with us. were dividing our phone lines differently as we focus on student loan and the issue of debt forgiveness. if you support the idea -- let's begin with a status report. where things stand on issues e and what is the debate? >> guest: first thanks for having me. where things stand at this point is that the biden administration is reviewing its legal authority to use executive action to cancel up to $50,000. the president has said about $10,000 is what you would be comfortable recently his chief of staff ron klain says actually say reviewing the authority to cancel up to $50,000 which would be in line with what the more progressive liberal wing of the party wants. senator schumer as well as

senator warren has been pushing this issue for $50,000 of cancellation since the beginning of the pandemic. >> host: how does that happen, legislatively, executive orders, what are the parameters? >> guest: this would be through executive order. the was a time where the biden administration have preferred for congress to take up the issue. i think at this stage senator schumer and warn would like a simple and more streamlined approach, and having the president addressed the issue rather than try to go through congress even with this slim majority is more beneficial in there might. >> host: part of the debate for those families where worked hard, pay for college tuition did not take out any loans, is there a sense of this being unfair? >> guest: certainly. this is become a heavily bipartisan issue, a divide issue. there are no republicans that have come out in public in support of this idea of canceling any debt through either of these ripples of

10,000, 50,000. thousand. there's an issue of fairness, moral hazard, potentially encouraging people to barmore if this is a possibility at the end that there's the argument there are lots of programs and benefits that work as a social safety net that americans to all benefit from it as a society we would. the idea is if you were to eliminate this debt are a lot of it for most people then they can redeploy that money into the economy purchasing homes, purchasing cards, helping us to lift ourselves out of this economic recession. >> host: is there an income limit in terms of who would qualify for this debt forgiveness? >> guest: not at the moment but there is some discussion about what the targeted debt forgiveness approach would look like. i've heard some people say maybe people are making under $125,000 but as far as the firm fast policy from the white house or from many of the factors that isn't quite yet and income cap

but i imagine that will be on the table. >> host: let's look at some of the numbers. the total student debt amount exceeding $1.7 trillion and that accounts to about 44.7 million americans who have student loan debt. the average monthly payment about $300. this number prevent images over 11% of of student loans were delinquent or are in default. what do those numbers tell you? >> guest: we are having a repayment problem in this country in the sense the current repayment structure for the federal government is exceedingly complicated. it is easy for people to fall through the cracks. a lot of folks who are not quite on board with the idea of cancellation say we can't do this without addressing the problems in existing system be at the cost of college, be it the way loans are handled, be it the way compounding interest in some of these federal loans. also the way people are repaying them. there are lots of folks who have

defaulted in the middle of the pandemic and prior to that so has to do way to think about how you address existing problems in the system for people for in it as most folks are come into it. there are scores of young folks are not yet graduated for taking on this debt. from what i understand they would not benefit from this cancellation because they're still in school and not in repayment but they're going to come to a repayment system that is difficult to navigate. >> host: in terms of that, if you're about to enter college, taking out loans, four years from now you graduate and you have 50, $75,000 in student loan debt, with a qualify as well for this or is this a one time for those currently out of college paying back loans? >> guest: so far this is being proposed as a one-time deal. thisro is an idea meant to alleviate the financial burden for folks as it relates to the

pandemic. people with federal lo% of people with federal loans have not had to make payments as a form of relief. democrats would like to extend that and give those folks a clear slate as much as they can. in order to help restart the economy in a meaningful way to think about what it would mean in terms of house purchases, car purchases, other kinds of economic activity. host: our guest covers higher education for the washington post, danielle douglas-gabriel. her work is available at washingtonpost.com. the idea of student loan forgiveness -- caller: i like the idea of

forgiving the loan but i think you should have something a person should pay back. 100 hours of community service for every $10,000 forgiven. a person can accomplish that in two years. host: what about that idea? guest: that is similar to something candidate joe biden campaigned on. this program is supposed to offer loan forgiveness after 10 years of work within the public sector or the nonprofit space. it has had lots of problems in terms of people thinking they were making qualified payments and finding out they were not. that is what i mean by needing to reform the structure in place.

there are different forms of programs that involve some level of debt forgiveness based on service. all of those programs have lots of faults that make it very easy for folks, even the most well-meaning folks to fall through the cracks. host: georgia, all supporting this idea of forgiving student loans. caller: this is timely and needed discussion as it relates to our innovative economy and future for our young people. and for families. let's get -- the first thing that president biden come within hours, he did suspend student loan debt that was a part of the cares program until september 2021. i support student loan debt and

i have young people. they are in a different category because they can pay. we also have merit programs. we have merit programs whereby the student loan forgiveness debt that was part of the trump -divorce -- trump-betsy devos debacle. we fund the residency through medicaid. not the hospitals, private funding. we also have merit programs. this is political. we are going to have to make a

decision about the values in this country. we did it with the g.i. bill. we did not concern ourselves with who could pay. we said doctors, engineers -- we have to create the new future economy. we must make a moral decision. we are creating the foundation for the future for this country. these are political decisions. they have merit programs. those people, upper middle income children, basing it on tests and gpas, they are receiving student debt forgiveness. they get that that is a political decision.

-- that is a political decision. we are saying, that is a moral hazard. i do not consider it moral hazard. host: thank you for the call. let me add two other voices. if they waived the debt, they must also give those who recently paid debt some credit. it will cause much rage that will be amplified in the media. ann opposes this idea. caller: yes, thank you for taking my call. i oppose paying off someone else's debt. i never hear any discussion -- because this will be taxpayer-funded, i am assuming -- for the people who chose not to go to college, who do not have children in college. forcing them to pay others'

debts. i do not even see any discussion of if they are going to move forward with this legislation that people are not even required to pay back the principal on their loans. they already get it subsidized. they do not pay any interest. when they get out of school, we are supposed to pick up the entire debt. makes no sense. it is there debt and their problem -- their debt and their problem. this is not a comparison to public education. host: what are you hearing from these callers? guest: i am hearing a lot of the arguments folks who are for and against this have raised over the last few months.

in the last few years. it is interesting to see this rise to the level of being a potential federal policy where there were activists who have been pressing this idea of debt forgiveness for several years. i think to the caller's point about subsidizing the interest, there are two different types of federal loans offered to students while they are in undergrad. there are low income students whose loans are often subsidized by the federal government. there are scores of students where that is not the case for them. the other issue is yeah, there are lots of people who will definitely benefit in terms of the earnings they are able to achieve. college graduates, as we do know, are able to weather economic crises.

let's be clear that of the 44.7 million people, a lot of folks did not graduate. they went to schools that closed in the middle of that program. they went to predatory schools. i've spoken to borrowers along that spectrum and there tends to be a narrow narrative about who owes money and what responsibilities they have when it is a lot more nuanced and complicated than that. host: susan ferrechio --danielle douglas-gabriel covers higher education for the washington post. why would you take out a $50,000 loan to get some degree that pays you $12-$15 an hour?

caller: good morning. presently, i owe $20,000 in debt to the art institute of pittsburgh. the new york times said it was the biggest fraud in academia when the department of justice suited them for fraud. -- sued them for fraud. the art institute is bankrupt. they have a supposed repayment and forgiveness program, which i applied for called the debt forgiveness application. borrowers defense to loan repayment. the art institute has a fund that is supposed to make me whole. betsy devos said on my application for 3.5 years -- sat

on my application for 3.5 years, and then denied it. i am a victim of a crime. i have paid well over $15,000 on the $12,000 i borrowed and i still owe $20,000. when you have defaulted on a loan and you have established repayment, you first pay on interest, then on fees, collection fees, and then you pay on the principal. i still owe more than half of the principal. i am 62. i am going into my retirement years and they can still collect on my social security check. host: when did you graduate? caller: 1985 after four years in the military. i was steered towards this college by a recruiter, by my

local guidance counselor. the recruiters paid the guidance counselors one dollars -- $100 ahead -- $100 a head. host: you are still paying the loans today at 62? caller: i worked 50 different jobs. i never got a decent job for my degree at the art institute of pittsburgh even though i attained dean's list four times out of eight quarters. i was an honor student with an awesome portfolio of artwork. this was before the age of computers. i cannot possibly research whether this was a legitimate for-profit college, which they called trade schools back in the 1970's and 1980's.

host: thank you for sharing your story with us. your thoughts? guest: certainly, a portion of the debt we are seeing are coming from these sorts of schools. at the time the caller went to school, there was no reason to think that school was not legitimate. the department of education was offering loan money to be able to go to those schools. i interview lots of people who feel a great amount of shame because of their debt. thinking they should have been smart enough to identify problems in the system, that they should have been smart enough to know that the school was fraudulent. these schools are accredited and supported by the federal government through this program and there is this level of trust

. there is an authority to believe the schools are good. why shouldn't i go there? yes, there is this program that is supposed to make whole students defrauded by their schools. for the last several years, there have been 180,000 applications for this. 90% of which are coming from for-profit schools seeking forgiveness. i feel like this idea of student debt is far more complicated than people characterize it. we live in a country with a very vast and diverse expansive higher education system and everything after college accounts for higher education. there are varying points within that system where people could

be led astray or make choices that could affect them the rest of their lives. sometimes they are fully educated about the schools. and certainly, there is personal responsibility. but there are problems within the system that allows for that. i think that has to be addressed within any conversation about debt cancellation. how do we address the problems in the existing system? host: president biden asking his education secretary to see if he can legally cancel student debt. this tweet says public colleges should charge only a minimal tuition. universities could charge a little more. i have mixed feelings about private universities. i attended state-funded educations.

i am to pay for graduates from brown university or vanderbilt. georgia, student loan debt. good morning. caller: good morning. i have student loans. i have $90,000 worth of student loans, what i also have a graduate degree. it was one of the best programs in the nation. however, i feel like student financial aid overall needs to be revamped. i was also a financial aid advisor after grad school and these kids are taking on loans and they do not understand what it means. something should be done about private loans and parent plus loans because the amount of interest that accumulates on the loans are ridiculous.

it is predatory lending. that is probably what is going on. you signed up and you don't understand that you cannot file bankruptcy on federal loans. it is affecting my finances. i cannot buy a house. i cannot have kids because it is literally a mortgage payment. host: how old are you? caller: i've accepted that i probably will never pay it back, even though i'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. that program is a complete fraud. i think something needs to be done. host: we will get a response, thanks for sharing your story and your call. did you want to respond? guest: the caller brought up two issues. there are between 6 million parents with parent plus loans, loans would government gives to parents to help fund their

children's education and the loans are interesting. the interest rate tends to be between 6% and 7% plus origination fees. that is pretty expensive lending even though the terms are probably in terms of the protections are better than what they might be in the private market. we are seeing some of the fastest-growing categories are people 50 and older as well as black borrowers. black borrowers in part because not having family resources in order to pay for college, a lot of black folks do end up going to college and borrowing more and borrowing more often. that is and also -- that is also an important thing to note. people are making decisions about their financial lives based on the idea that this debt will carry with them forever. i want to be clear that student loans are and can be an

investment in your education and the long-term possibilities for your career, so it's not just that debt is bad it is that the system and structure in which we have needs reforms to make it manageable for the people who currently have that and people who need to do that to obtain a better equality of life and contribute to society in a full and meaningful way. host: this coming from town square on our twitter page, @cspanwj. no discussion of forgiving debt can be fair when it -- until it considers that a loans were issued to people regardless of ability and income to pay, that is what makes the interest on these loans predatory. the priority by the biden administration includes public loan forgiveness by the federal government, -- brenda is joining us from greenville, north carolina. your point of view on this? caller: thank you for taking my

call. i'm very concerned. this is something they have opposed. where we stand in america, everybody's job is up in the air. they have already been to school for work, there is no work. they have to start with something new. why can't everyone start on the same page and reach out and help one another? there are people from other countries in debt. [indiscernible] let's help each other. let's help these young people get a fresh start. thank you very much. host: thank you, brenda. matt joining us from carmel, new york. -- caller: i support the idea of forgiving the loans, but i think we should approach this in a way, we have to fix this problem.

one of the ways i think we could fix it is we have the students that are struggling to declare bankruptcy. if we do this we are allowing this so-called kind of free money because the way the loan is like free money, it would be better as to how to the students are going to be able to repay the loan. to me the tuitions are growing so fast, it's because of that, and it's just a business of making money, they are not thinking about the students. i don't think the tuitions are realistic. 400 for a credit, 1500 for one class, that doesn't make any sense to me. >> let me bring in one more choice. -- one more voice. kenny from georgia. go ahead. caller: i think it's an excellent idea because if you think back to 2008, all the banks got bailed out, and all

the people got foreclosed on. this is a way to make things fair, and you have a lot of these middle-class kids who took out these loans, like somebody tweeted earlier, these kids are working at starbucks. they have degrees that are worthless, and it's the governments fault, the government backed out on loans and let these kids take out the money. i think the government should do the right thing and do the debt forgiveness up to $50,000 and no stipulations, one time deal. biden would be the greatest president ever and he has a lot of democratic camp it with the same boat. they would come over to the democratic party. thank you. host: danielle douglas-gabriel, even hearing both sides. what's the timeline for this to be put in place if approved by the white house? danielle: we are fuzzy on the

timeline. the administration has for the last two months telling been telling us they are reviewing the authority for the president to cancel this much money in debt. the more liberal wing of the democratic party is still pressing the president to make a decision within the next month or two. it's uncertain at this stage as to whether that will happen. our understanding is at least before the moratorium on student loan payments which ends in september is lifted there should be some position either way. host: danielle douglas-gabriel, she coupleasts. >> washington journal continues. host: every monday at this hour we take a closer look at covid-19, where we are in the pandemic, more than a year after the first cases were here in the united states. well over a year since it came from wuhan, china. joining