humanity and infectious disease by charles kenny. thank you both so much. >> thank you. >> to everyone, thanks for coming to the san antonio book festival. have a great afternoon. .. >> thousand community centers to create, low income families can. [inaudible]. >> along with the television company supports book tv on "c-span2", is a public service.

>> hi everyone and welcome and thank you for tuning in. my name is not restored and on behalf of harvard bookstore i am so please welcome you to tonight's event with wendy lower late discussing her latest book "the ravine". and this is regarding holocaust. she's join in conversation with joshua rubenstein. harvard bookstore in cambridge, massachusetts brings information to you during i these challengig times. spring season is in full swing m sure you check out our schedule where you can also sign up for e-mail newsletter and browse for poems and books. he'll include time for questions at any time during the talk tonight, there's a q&a button od your screen will get through as many as time allows. if youou would like to purchasea copy of "the ravine" there will be a link in chat we can purchase no sales support harvard bookstore in cambridge, massachusetts so thank you especially during this difficult time but communities faces like

your local bookstore. there also be a link in the donate in the chat if you would like to get additional support to harvard bookstore in the purchases and financial contributions make this virtuali series possible and no more ever supports the future of the land landmark independent bookstore . thank you for tuning in and supporting our authors and our incredible staff at harvard bookstore and we sincerely appreciate your support especially now. and you may have experienced, virtual gatherings, if there arw technical issues, if they arise, we will do our best to resolve them as quickly as we can and think you in advance for your patience and understanding. wendy lower is currently the senior scholar and yelp university and director in the groping center for human rights. she's the author of empire building the holocaust in the ukraine net diary and the holocaust. she is the coeditor in ukraine.

these are german women and in the finalist in the national book award and has been translated into 23 different languages. and it is a spectacular book on the subject is often overlooked by holocaust historians. joshua rubenstein is on the staff a of amnesty international from 1975 since 2012 is northeast director. he's an associate of the davis center for russian and harvard and is the author and editor of many books including: secret program in postwar inquisition of the jewish antifascist committee which received the national jewish award unless dayst of solid which has been published in nine languages. today there's discussing "the ravine" in the story starts with a picture of a nightmare. a mother and two children on the

break of murder. forensic and archival detective work, which occur d through the ukraine germany alaska is zero and she recovers astonishing players and details during the open air masters and she seeks to it i do by the families and the killers and the photographer. through the e single image monday and marked a new understanding of the face of the family unit in the petoskey of genocide. now i turned over to the authors, wendy and joshua thank you for so much for being here. it. wendy: thank you. joshua: hi wendy how are you predict. wendy: i'm great. joshua: congratulations on your book in the me say a few words of introduction and we are talking about one of many many killings that took place during the war. targeting jews on the eastern front. for many people who know about

the holocaust, the typical image is a story the family of dutch jews in amsterdam, they discovered killings in poland and her people of her a places like this. but the killings on the eastern front, are the soviet territory are less well known. to remind everyone, world war ii began at the end of august beginning of september when germany and the soviet russia invaded invited pull in the of the two years the nolte germany, during those two years, they invaded the low countries holland and belgium and occupied and took over paris france and began the battle of britain as an attempt to invade great britain which failed ofre cours. and in june of 1941, by

launching an enormous invasion into soviet territory what took place in the initial months after june 22nd, 1941, doctor the imagination. there was collapse in the german army against 350 miles in the first ten days. they captured on june 24th, the capitol of russia on june 28. [inaudible]. and kia was captured on september 19th in the enormous massacre of jews started ten days later. in over 37000 jews j were killed over today's of continuous shooting. the 900 a seizure it began on september 8th. so this took place within months of the german invasion of soviet

territory. so we are talking about one of thousands and thousands of killings that took place on german occupied soviet territory we now believe that as many as two and half million of the 6 million jews killed during the holocaust actually presidents of the soviet union was defined by the borders of jews in 1941. telus 20 how did you decide to focus your career on holocaust what inspired you to write the "the ravine". wendy: thank you for providing that historical context and for the question prayed my journey into the holocaust studies began and actually the late '80s and early 90s. and it coincided with the collapse of the soviet union. so i did not going to graduate school with the intention of writing this book in doing this kind of research.

i had an interest in germany and i had the german language skills as a history major as an undergraduate. these global events started happening while i was in school now started to open up worlds for me and opportunities for me. particularly in the territory for this former soviet union. my advisor had worked in archives in ukraine which was headquartered during the war. and so in the summer of 1992, my first year of graduate school, i went to the archives and from there with a friend and started to collect documentation much of the documentation was the origins of my dissertation. but also the origins of another series and it wasn't so much the origins of this book under brought me to this terrain come

to this location and in touch with the t witnesses. and gave me a whole new perspective of the holocaust is a hard outside of the camp system and the holocaust blog blood plans as they are typically called now. >> and then you came across a particular photograph. wendy: yes and with my education and career in the holocaust studies that the time is well is working at the holocaust museum in washington dc. image that because when i worked on these exhibits, and as we goings to actually direct the center there for a few years, in 2017, i became really immersed in the evidence whether that was the large photography on display, the visual evidence, the artifacts. the testimonies and so i was

working in the archived in the education but then working in public museum and institution in which the story telling is driven by these kinds of multimedia and how things are brought together to tell stories based on different artifacts and images. i started to notice as i was working on these exhibits how these images became really iconic when i would go somewhere else i would see the same images right we go to another place i would see the same images and relies on one 1 hand that these were brought in as illustrations but not really studied in and of themselves as horses. and secondly there was this discussion about the photography and the sensitivities as far as displaying them. and as a teacher or professor

and the challenges as showing these and i started to compartmentalize my thinking and my curiosity. andd i want to add that in real life, outside of the classroom as it were an outside of the archives, he became increasingly aware how the power of the image engage the digital age and the visual culture and the started .but increasingly now and certainly not what i had as a student going up. we need to look more carefully at how we are using images in classroom. a photograph of the suffering or violence like the one that we will look at it in a few minutes we should warmer audiences that these areph . graphic images. they compel people into action, humanitarian action social justice campaign tonight inc.

about the attack in vietnam. and another how a little washed up on a beach and how that heightens the discussion of of the crisis in europe. he got me thinking about images is only source material to the research but also about the power of imagery as an agent of change whether the pursuit of justice or teaching but there is this power in the image that i really wanted to try to study more closely. joshua: so i know have images you would like to share. wendy: yes. so here we have images that are the kind of iconic ones you see on display in museums and often invokes and they become shorthand or instant recall her

holocaust history. so when i type my students and i asked them at the end of the semester, tell me what you know about the holocaust. they're usually just described me images. but not very much information in detail. this is the way we kind of collectively remember and recall the holocaust often is through these images. more than say other sources like that the documents are in the written word. it's just the way we work cognitively. but fascinated by that but actually, realizing these images with the exception of probably this one here, that many of them show the depicted history is kind of impact if ways, the entrances to the canal or bonus for instance. this is often cropped here, we now realize that actually the woman with the child, probably

the killer here but actually, the rest of the family this year andil ukraine. i think they're actually being forced to be great. here we have a little boy with his arms raised and also during this demand bit of an image this cropped image in the bigger image, it was in a photo album, killer down here. and then east germans caught up with him and convicted him and that uses image to find him and get it's also about the pursuit ofof justice. but the images that is the subject of my book which employee put up now is just so astounding to me and trapping disturbing hunting and in many ways to describe it . kind of living with this since 2009 when it was first brought to my

attention. i was in the archives at the holocaust museum. working on another case and was just there was even living there at the time is living - needs to tell us that arrived in august they had come to have this ring this image, it was common for people to come to this museum and they saw something that they wanted to share they wanted to find more about our unit and then draw the resources there on site in the library and in the archives of my colleagues were there. i worked on it ukraine. and the germans earth that that had been locked up for decades. it had not been used in any more time shape. against these killers who were in the image. they had the photograph, they had the name of the photographer.

[inaudible]. and they had the date of the first photograph, is in 1941. and it's taken it and ukraine which was about m a hundred mils west of kia. and i was really what kind of started me on this research journey. and it culminated in the book "the ravine". so what didgh i find particulary striking on this image. feel free to interrupt it anytime if you want. you can comment on these if you want. i started to pick apart the seasons of it and thought about how they were kind of represented to me. and as far as what you know about tran holocaust, the of the shoes and i start with that in e

night in the book with the issues that will be reading thopefully a little bit from te epilogue of the power of the meaning and the metaphor of these empty shoes here. there were somee papers, and if you look really s closely, and w we see a digital technology and where zooming in and zooming out and you can see actually the casings of bullets kind of litter of mass murder there in the environment, i had the advantage when it started this project in 2009, this holocaust studies, to advance over f the decades during my lifetime into interdisciplinary kinds of projects. and there is a collaborative projects going on. an environmental history has made advances. and of course forensic archaeology so looking at this in the s landscape, of the mass murder and how they put nature

to work here. you can see the regime and the soil here that's tumbling down and it was very deliberate that the germans made this so sometimes they used a stick and a push to be blended so that they were falling into the pit. into that mass grave and using the soil to cover up the bodies and suffocate those who are still alive in the pit. this is daylight which means that your going to obviously have onlookers and witnesses. this is in a forest setting, near a river. but in the mass murder due to the landscape. i have a chapter in there about thatat reading the training and putting the clothes their writing the collaborators here, in a way, this kind of image of collaboration where you have

these are ukraine's wearing, the kind of militiamen and recruited on the spot and then these german officials with their insignias and i can make other uniforms and helping with outbreak. and they're pointing up guns in the ukrainian as an expression instead of grimacing an ace in the active shooting. the act of murder. in the hard shoulder to shoulder here. they don't speak the same language, they just kind of come together at this moment and they know what to do. they can still communicate of what to do. here we have, the smoke is another clue and i ultimately worked for the person who helped me interpret why the smoke is in the way of this blast.

which is typical for execution with multiple firings. in a halo kind of over the woman's head. sorry to sound so forensic and scientific in my explanation but this is how is trying to get to what happened. what happened to these victims and to try to restore ultimately the names of these victims. this is not how they wanted to be photographed there last minutes of life. and when we do when we a picture like this. how we respond to this evidence of murder and his family here in the center. and holding his hand, the little boy and barefooted and her shoesd dress and in the position that she is in. and ultimately discovering there was noticeable here on her lap . can tell from her posture being able to view the technology to determine it was another person there. another child there.

tell these were the first reactions i had and how i thought about what could potentially be discovered in this photo and try to figure out what happened before during w ad after to the people in the photo and their names and what is happened to them after the war. and could those killers for instance be brought to justice reading i mentioned that i was working on a case when i first found this. so is obsessed with the time with helping identify any of the named perpetrators. and it turned out that one of the ukrainian killers was really young party was a minor the time time. he was 17 years old. in the first thing that i needed to do i thought was actually the covenant restore or these

victims were gone. i can maybe pursue their identities and that kind of historical justice but maybe one of the perpetrators is still alive to the first thing i did was to try to find the documentation to identify the perpetrators. joshua: and how are you able to do that so many years later. wendy: so this is where kind of knowing through my colleagues, because this is an endeavor that requires many languages. the holocaust as we are coming to realize especially after the soviet union opening of these archives and studying thes collaborations and their stories. this is a german led campaign. it was organized by the germans instigated by the germans. because they had so many followers and participate in

collaborators. so i had to go through the german documentation francis and look for those to try to figure out who was in that town at the time potentially but army unit, police a unit . these uniforms e not regular german military uniforms. they're not fs or order police or different markings on the sleeves. the buttons are difference, insignias are different. but it it took me a while to figure that out to determine that it was not, while it was a custom unit because as a photographer, it's really interesting moment when he was questioned about this photograph in 1943. mentioned in this important detail that the germans in this photograph worked for the

finance ministry. they were there only checking packages at their local train station or in a post office and they volunteered. they just kinda for recruited on the spot. this was an opportunity anti-semitic within therapy unit. joshua: and how did you come across the name of the photographer. wendy: the name of the photographer had been part of the photographs, is taken after the war actually. in the with his camera. so that was part of the archival records with the photographs because the photographer was born in 1916. so 25 yearsn old when he took a picture. and he was someone as it turned out, he not want to be in this for rated and b looking at the photograph, the image is so clear. and even composed kind of

follows that the static form and he did not have a zoom lens . so you know he is standing very close to the killings. he's 20 feet away at most. and when he was questioned by the jewish affairs secret police, he mentioned that there were these finance gardens. and then he described what happened that day. why when he heard in his barracks the sound of the shootings screaming. he wentt to go see what was happening. he left for the and he grabbed his camera. he was the company scribe silly had the camera and he was advent photographer this was the age of the portable camera. this is the most photographed war. it was unprecedented the number

of images. it was deliberately embedded photo in journalists. there were very pleasedph to be photographing these kind of spirits. they didn't even want that photos of the crime to go to circulation. those were shared they were faring that would incite something. the photographer was in this campaign rated he hated the fascists. he had no choice. and he was part of this card unit and he took this picture, out of his moment to say that ntthis is not what i believe in. this is not what i want to continue to participate in and at that point, he was writing letters to his wife saying my hair is turning bright and i

feel passiveness into my brain and losing strength. and he got out of the continued military service and he went o back for the back what he did not go to the front. he went to an asylum pain his wife carried out, she pretended with him that he was sick for a long read any actually took these photographs to then show the jews and to warn them, not to go to east. this was happening and actually headed a jewish family and his attic. the a jewish family, the head of the family, actually delivered his son in 1943. so there are surprising stories of this photograph. so whoever took it w coming they were collaborating to further

looking at this image. he is allowed to take them, he's in uniform. with the fact that was not what he wanted to do. when i interviewed his family, they confirmed the portrait that i was starting to paint of him. and i was very fortunate to get access to the camera and his personal papers as well for you erto so anywhere you the first o identify from offenders or had somebody been held this time already. wendy: there's the story of justice and the individuals. it is interesting. for the photographer himself this question by the authority after the war in 19. also 1959 when the going after the collaborators predict the managed to escape any kind of prosecution.

and ultimately he recognized for his efforts and also awarded accommodations for that predict the definitive, he donated his camping-camera to the museum it which is what see, hear. i had an opportunity to inspect it. the other colors, kind of a rep. story and why, as far as the soviets actually tracking down the ukrainians and convictingnd them. is it we were very much aggressively going after the traders in the homeland. after the war, the only thing we really know about them was generated by an event in 1969. on january of 1969, one of the members of that customs guard unit walked into a police

station after hours and said, man working at the desk of the officer on duty, i would like to report a crime. so we t had this like police report in 1969 in which that person walked in and said, 20 years ago i was in this town in russia. and this is what happened and he identified the two killers in the photo with west germans didn't have this image to look at but i had the advantage of comparing the images. of the german interior interrogation and they denied the shootings. they provided more details what happened thatic day. if that photograph would've been

available at that time may be the could've been different. joshua: about the ukrainian collaborators. with a held accountable in any way. wendy: yes. the prosecutor in neighboring districts, to give you an idea geographically, this is actually a map of the jewish settlements in ukraine is distracting that thisou whole town and most about 4000 jews prayed about a thousandyb had left when they ni had arrived and 41. but it's a very imported historic site. at the turn-of-the-century, he traveled there and collected stories and tried to capture and preserve the dish in the way of life in the community that was

disappearing and immigration. in the first world war was also another all that community. so here we have the town and this is what it looks like when i went back the first time in 2014 read and just to show you this was a very vibrant marketpe which is what happens whene not only the genocide during the second world war in the soviet is station the collapse of that system. the failure of that system, economically, you can see what is left here after all of the heightened inflation in the '90s. but these were the jews were gathered, where the shooting you see in the photograph. in the ukrainian placement when the militia in a photograph or tracked down in 1985. it's incredible to find the

casings, and also thousands and thousands of pages of thorough investigation and contrast the west german one on this massacre. the soviet prosecutors and the three killers. there's actually a third, there were two in the picture. in the two who were adults at the time were executed by firing squad. that was in january 1987. many of the killer was minor was given a sentence sentence to russian prison system and i don't know what happened to him. this case closed in 1987 i was driving through this region in the summer of 92. so one of the last cases as far as i can tell in the soviet union pertains to the holocaust. the soviets didn't have the

photo. they did not have this image. so when you read the trial records in the testimonies of the soviet case, it is a description of this image. it matches the image. the prosecutor forced the ukrainians to reenact what happened and this in the map they actually created in the case and here's the center of town that just showed you that memorial is that champagne area. and the jews were forced to walk cein this direction to the prosecutorsio do this all out. this is the path has viewed in the picture, the family was forced to walk. here's the actual parked. this is the actual killing site is pictured in the image. joshua: certainly part of the story which may surprise many of

our listeners is that the soviet union after world war ii, in fact during world war ii, since they began deliberating the territories with germans, began looking for collaborators and justice. there were trials in ukraine and trials in russia proper, trials in the baltic area. and hundreds and hundreds of trials were held after the war. and that one that you just talk about took place 40 years later. so in addition to nuremberg and many prosecutions in germany, the soviet government also to one extent or another in its own way did try to hold collaborators accountable. this is just one example. wendy: yes. there were about 30 ukrainians in the militia in that town. there is no german presence really other than in the customs area. they didn't have a really outcome.

no office, the officers who recruited those killers, they came into town of the sunday night. the german custom officials were playing cards the canteen. in the in and they said, what are the jews doing in this they still here, were going to get to them, who wantso to do this tomorrow. and theyol started this whole process. and it was a step-by-step process. these mass shootings on a kind of, they are very organized, the measure out and they calibrate the number of victims. the major out how big the volume help large that should be printed and to some kind of local division of labor. the force the ukrainians, we interviewed the participants who

were forced to dig graves. to clean up the area. a system was developed quickly in the summer of 41. to the extent that they could get more german forces. carry out these much larger mass shootings. this kind of a smaller version of it. if as you in the beginning, we know now that ukraine is just anymore there was a jewish community, the colors were to them. it's not that the jewish were deported to camps, the germans were going to those locations carrying out these mass shootings quickly. and with very little tracings.

there's very little documentation. on thesee killings, there was oe file in 19609069. move from the wartime, didn't find out anything from sexual murder. joshua: you referred to the fact that many german soldiers took photographs. but officially they were discouraged from taking photographs and certainly discouraged fromm situating them photographs in your book you referred to a prosecution of one german officer who was prosecuted they shared with his family. us about that incident. wendy: that is this case in which really must, the pronunciation - this is really

astounding because he was found guilty. he was unworthy of a man in uniform. and that excessive cases and shameless pictures including one of the naked jewish foreman and bragging about these photos to his wife and friends back in germany. by taking photographs of the incidentsis are having photogras taken and having them developed in the shop and showing them off, the accused is guilty of disobedience. so he wasn't actually convicted for murder for the actual killings of the jews. now is considered in this very rare wartime case, the only known instance that they put an officer on trial win connection of the killings of jews part of it is not about killing the jews per se, but it was against the

rules to take these pictures and show them around and brag about them. the mass murders started, orders for not taking photography free. but they cannot control that. there were also encouraging people to take pictures of the war so we could include this chapter in history providing handheld cameras. and that was promoted. so that was contribution of efforts there. so we had these photographs. that many of them were destroyed because they were incriminating. or compensated during the war by the police. so this is a rare graph. people are surprised by that when i talk about this photograph. the assume that there are a lot of photographs of the holocaust. but there are very few that are this incriminating that actually show the killing.

the photographer took, this was his kind of main photograph that he took latexex mother wants to show the process of how things were carried out step-by-step. joshua: now marking the 75th anniversary of the opening of the international military tribunal at nuremberg. but the person the most famous of the 13 trials, there were organized. what are your views the legacy of the members today. wendy: there are some, if you are talking about nuremberg. it's interesting of the use of cartography of the film footage in the trial. and others have written about that. so some of the first images of the holocaust, the polish

underground they were systematically correcting these atrocity images that they found a dead soldiers or wherever they found them. the jews themselves were already part of the world of photography. even had phono studios more active photographers before the war. they had the skill. so they were secretly taking pictures. and so, these photos were even some when you're trying to get these images they were getting them during the work so that in pursuit of justice was very much a part of how the jews responded how the witnesses responded. as these atrocities were unfolding. and it was tricky to because the war contained that visual kind of competition.

there's a money shot is very much a visual work. so in nuremberg when the allies undertook this trial, these images were very much part of how people came to discover the holocaust. there's a very important image from the empire of the family. the book has just come out. i just saw morning that it was released. and that was part of the nuremberg presentation of evidence. i think the ways that prosecutors other cases together

and all the resources they drew upon, images, testimony, they built this archive many ways, the recordings of the nuremberg trial. so think obviously the story of justice and introduction of the crimes against humanity and the work genocide in 1946 are you part of the legacy of nuremberg but as far as the evidence collected under incredible circumstances in germany, they had been bombed the resources were hard to come by. the stories of people and the powers for justice, like walking to and it is an incredible story of justice. the lacey for me on the historians is really an an amazing amount of material as is

prosecutors came to discover a f what we know today. the new early on though that this was going to be a legacy on the third a right. and it was written about that as he was preparing the trial it became very clear that this was kind of the crime of all crimes that. joshua: alternate now back to ivory to help introduce those questions. audrey: hale we have a number of questions. the first one isum from ruth i recall photos taken in the ghettos part is not connected with this notion of atrocities photography.y. wendy: yes, there were photos taken in the ghetto. during this span of events, the

existence of that ghetto which was in 1940. so the end of the war. in the reoccupation by the poland and by the soviets. i think the participants may be referring to this album which was also from the nuremberg trial broughthe into evidence ad thus the classic example of how german officials of photo albums together. it's a culture of kind of administrative bragging for also part of the kinda working towards your superior. that the person in charge of the destruction of the ghetto had his work photograph and documented and put into a photo

album and presented it. this also happened later to new album emerged. tartifacts hopefully will come out in english, that book. so that was created to show off. in this case it was the operations of the soviet war that is showing the album clearly the collaboration the camaraderie. the german officials there. so yes, these are albums, and the jacobs albums so we have hundreds of these. they were created by the officials and it was critical of these operations. createdit by nazi.

audrey: you can get so much information out of one photograph there's a possibility for other atrocities. wendy: yes, infected started the book, what does one do when one discovers mass murders. randy murder that is occurred historically. whether it is a lynching or an image from a genocide really any piece of evidence like that. heidi responded respond to that other person. perhaps, you're starting on an investigation rated in an historical way. and that was really what set me off on this path clearly an image of murder we know what

happened in the holocaust but i was actually trying to restore in history. and the biggest challenge was to try to find the family and the center of the photograph which turned out to be the hardest task. that surprised me. that was going to be a lot easier to find a family and the fact that i could not 100 percent certainty identify the family, came very close. made me pause as far as the reality of the genocide. in which area to pursue. the suppression and the kind of research and trying to fight against that. the identity of the victims that was supposed to be lost on us. we have people missing that no one really came forward as far as i can tell to claim his familyly is missing. he came very close, may have had a cousin of the little boy there. but what i found was all of the

victims, not registered as missing. and that is the biggest part of the genocide. those the missing we need to find out about what happened to them and who they are. that's kind of what we do in active prevention as well an understanding of what happened. it. audrey: have the photograph of the family. is that true. wendy: i have this photograph come that's as close as i got worried and set another really rare photograph. one of the murder in the book. incredibly rare action shot. this is an incredibly rare family portrait from 2041.

and what was left and this was taken probably a month or so before so between july and august of 41. the women and children were oppressed they were killed when they evacuated. i'm striking to me that this was a testimony that a cousin of these children here evacuated with her family and then came back after the war and she was only five years old. when she was evacuated. so for her to identify these people in the image that she came back and was given this photograph. so this is what is left of your family. and it she attached it and she declared that i had family that was killed and shot.

in october of 1941 and i visited with her in the story she told me matched the other stories that i i collected. but we cannot she cannot say for certain that image, the family and a boy that child, not the same as the woman and two children that would be her family. so this is her aunt and it would be this woman and two children. audrey: that makes me emotional. wendy: it's a beautiful photograph. summa guess it is. we have a few more questions and a few more minutes. one of the striking things about the photograph is that there are no other victims in view. there other victim standing and watching. wendy: yes.

and this is why i talk about this in the bucket towards the end. as far as the crumpled codes in the knowledge in the victims who cannot see, the many who murdered had remained missing. in my book, or to the list of the other victims and described how they were brought to the site. and then you can read how at victims in this photograph that they were part of this group and community the other victims were standing nearby. in fact from the germans had miscalculated the number and they could actually read of the day. the action and stop. while ones who had not been shot

were in the spot they had weight while the ukrainian girls and jewish men were also shot and quickly dug two more trenches. so yes, there were other victims there and somewhere between two and 300 were shot today. that day. see what joshua you may be able to speak to this as well. the photography is active resistance did occur in the holocaust, which is this part of these photos, do you know of more. joshua: i deferred to wendy but let me just say that on the eastern front, there were many photographers within the red army. many of them happen to be jewish and they took not only photos of

fighting but also photos of liberation moments. their famous set of photographs that little known fact that probably the first master site could be found to be discovered by the allies was in a december of 1941, in early january 1942. the killed about 7000 jews in part. in the soviet army counterattacked and liberated the territory. and so soon after that, the germans had not managed to bury the victims. so we have photographs massacre, very soon after it took place. in the den germans counterattackedla themselves and took control again and liberated until later inl the war. so that's a very interesting moment in time. in the massacre was documented

by soviet jewishnt photographers are commemorated byog a soviet jewish officer was a poet. that was widely reported in the soviet press in 1942. so the issue of photography, visual evidence enters into our consciousness especially on the early. front very and then of course once the allies in the west began liberating the territory of germany. the soviets move into poland. and then another area which was destroyed predict in january of 44, there's tremendous amount of visual photography that coincids with the liberation and with the liberators found. and there have news reels as well. wendy: so there is a lot in

circulation. and in private settings well and i hadri the opportunity and everything josh, you agree and you are out there, the propaganda ministries and then use immediately as the allies which was part of the psychological warfare. they were archived. and used it to reeducate the germans. the confronting of the campaign. look at this so a lot of the images including the one, immediately distributed in 1945 and after that liberation and part of the reeducation campaign. so the imagery is out there. it's in people's pockets and in their homes. i understand there's a woman who was a kona technician, like a 19

-year-old girl at the time and she was processing developing prentice from soldiers who came back. atrocity photography. it was killings and she was part of the resistance actually. she was sharing them with some of the prisoners. she knew they were working in the fields runner house. it allowed to work outside of the camps. she was hiding some of those images. and that was then funneling back in czechoslovakia. so this was something they were trying to prevent because it is such a powerful piece of

evidence. and so i was curious about the issue of use of the sensitivities of using them and respecting the community. and i was surprised when i went to the video testimony, and foundation in u.s. city and in a systematic search on the photos. at the end of this testimonies, and i looked at the notes. often there was a family photograph at the end. kind of attribute to restore the lives. but very often during the interviews, the survivors will hold up in atrocity i don't often sometimes is the same photo that had been reproduced so manyro times. been part of that discourse of resistance they hold it up and put in front of the camera. and sometimes the interviewer this was back in the 1990s, the interviewer willn look away. in the survivors are like, look

at this, this is what happened to us and do not forget. susan interesting discussion on whether you should look not. who is speaking on behalf of home. and what was appropriate. i don't have an answer. ... ...

y i cannot respond to the mall. but it can be propel as an agent of change to open new discoveries so it is fascinating a photo like this so central to this man's life and his active resistance is now a vehicle to share the vehicle for hearing these

stories and also showing how these photographs can be a form of address for historical crime. >> thank you for coming and speaking and giving your time and everyone tuning in from home and showing up, the incredible staff at harvard book store. check out the chat in supporting wendy and harvard book store and buying a copy of the ravine. it is an amazing book, historic and how important it is, and shopping local for all of us at harvard book store. ♪♪

>> tonight on booktv, biologist andrew steele looks at the way scientists are looking to slow the aging process in humans. josh howley of missouri argues big tech companies are the greatest threat to american privacy and liberty.

that starts at 7:00 pm eastern. for more information visit booktv.org or consult your program guide. >> is a look at some publishing news. ted louisville california and teresa ledger fernandez of new mexico introduced a bill to unemployed writers. the 21st century federal writers project act, quote, the federal writers project of the new deal era by preventing a new grant program to hire america's unemployed or underemployed writers. and reporters, writers and poets, join us and open our eyes to the realities of the world around us as we build from this pandemic. writers plane essential role in

telling stories and tying communities together around shared history. the proposed cost of the bill is $60 million and allocation of funds overseen by the part of labor. the purchase of fellow publisher for $349 million. harpercollins is america's second book publisher and reported a 45% rise in profits in the first quarter of this year. in other news mpb books and reports print book sales were up 12% for the week ending may 1st. adult nonfiction sales had another strong week, up 8%, 26% for the year. former owner and publisher of diode press richard baron has died at the age of 98. mister baron published with norman mailer and according to the late novelist and former editor-in-chief, the perfect publisher. and backed us in every crazy thing we would do. publishing news and all the past programs anytime, booktv.org.