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heather victor is an associate professor of the university as well as by two of the contributors, a senior fellow at the sir arthur lewis social economic studies the university of the west indies. and the professor of contemporary history at the university. and finally, last but not least for joined by my colleagues who is here. but we are going to do today is talk about the book in general.

about the specific chapters and touched on some other issues related to the content of soccer diplomacy. if you have any questions please submit them you can do that via e-mail detail are on the events page. with that, welcome to our esteemed panelists going to start with a few questions for heather. heather, you're the the editor of the vine could you explain what is the idea behind the edited volume? what are the topics you try to cover? what is the mission of the project? spin it thank you so much to have us here to talk about soccer diplomacy. i have a lot of different scholars who work on soccer diplomacy.

that brings together so much different work that expands us just how important and widespread the world's most popular sport office as an issue in politics as diplomacy's which is how widespread it is. every scholar wrote their chapter and when they came together to see what teens come out of all of this. wonderfully surprising the chapters went together so well. different themes and ideas keep reappearing to the past century or even more than a century for soccer and diplomacy. while none of these factors focused on it, it's kind of been underlying especially the big event such as the world

cup there is just so much progress has been important and presents soccer federalization organization trying to use diplomacy themselves throughout the past or so pittsburgh what are some of the ways in which soccer has played that role within diplomacy? i think the two things people probably think of most immediately our basic marketing for a country or regime. and maybe attempts to construct. you could think of other things to i don't know, could you talk about that a little bit? just a range of different ways in which soccer and diplomacy that you highlight in the book?

>> is with these mega events through the world cup race other competitions that countries often it's in a country it is really that how the country was to protrude itself to the world. and in some cases it is countries that are on a rising trajectory kind of uses events to say we have arrived on this world stage. other times it might be about changing a perception or trying to put forward a different view of that very specific the more recent times marketing sponsorship you may come into play with, it's the

biggest areas we see "soccer diplomacy" really coming into play and happening through much of the past century. >> how effective is this instrument of diplomacy? is there a way to assess that they find convincing? what is your broad tickly on that front? is it worse and focusing on four ministries, for national governments. we think the take away is there? spirit that is always a really difficult question. with each country having their own goals, national soccer governing body might have a different goal for hosting the government, the government having a different goal. they may have been more effective in achieving and

perhaps the other. it is very difficult and it's one where you really aren't going to be able to make that decision a week after the tournament ended to say it was a success in that respect. i think too often set the end of the event very successful event we had asked number of spectators but we made this much money. we had this many global viewers. from a diplomatic side of things takes more time to make those determinations. i think that is something see what else happens or what it is tough. >> i think we want to start jumping on here too. let's talk a little bit, you

your health have contributed to the book which is about east germany really and its participation and international soccer games for the role of nato and letting that happen or not letting that happen. he talked little bit think there's some question about how the great power competition more generally. can you bring us up to speed on the situation east germany? in the early 1960s germany was recognized was in the olympic to compete within all german ache combined german olympic team. for most of those decades. so for olympic qualifications they would play against each

other and whichever team one would be the team represent germany. and so in preparation for the 64 olympics east germany team beat the west german team in the east german team was able to ultimately travel to nato countries to try to qualify for the olympics. but when it came to competitions where it recognized east germany separate from west germany for competitions and other competitions, the east german team was not allowed to travel to nato countries or any sport of the team that represent east germany that went against nato regulations particularly after the berlin wall went up. restrictions really were made

tighter. so it became kind of confusing like why are they allowed to comply soccer now but then they are not for another time. different countries or not. had a confusing level. >> just for background, this did not apply to other countries? this is east germany specific issue? and with the nato members just focus their games is that how it works or what was? >> [inaudible] when west germany joined nato all of the nato states agreed to support west germany policies to not recognize east germany. all of the other states could, they need to also apply receive visas. some of those states and teams might not have received them.

in general the warsaw past other than east germany were able to enter and play. what happened was always a complicated and kind of depended on the sport being played weathers a team sport or an individual sport and how strong the soviet union in that event us with all the other states were due. when east germany was not allowed a visa the did mass withdraw and boycott. they would wait until very close to the competition began even when they had decided several weeks earlier they were going to withdraw. there were instances particularly when the soviet team was really, really good at certain sports. they did not want to lose out on that. but occasionally they still played.

i've said they participated but individual sport is always less distraction because it's an individual sport. a team sport like soccer would not have that level of destruction. i know all the sudden you have uneven groups at the last minute after one group would have two teams they played so that was it. i did become gated for the organizers perspective i see. when you think, should we have taiwan and the people's republic face-off before we sports event to see who's a participant? >> thank you for inviting me. i'm not sure why i was invited to be here i can claim expertise in soccer or diplomacy but i really enjoy i committed highly to reviewers.

in terms of the great competitions in this highly polarized country which is facing sort of new geopolitical environment and using soccer as geopolitical engagement and a sort of place of intensifying regime. germany had the world cup and interestingly enough is this competition intensifies they dropped the ball on soccer as an instrument of engagement. partly because of other sports possibly because of lots of other things happening at the same time.

differences that might exist of the integral. or of the cold war in present-day. they're in competition with china. you have the beijing winter olympics in their it should be approached. should be put in place. international sport applies. i think that is one of the differences that soccer is not necessarily central to american popular culture. strict china is pretty bad. >> china has invested quite heavily into soccer. there international players

there is a super league has a bad reputation for fixing and corruption. team's wrecked number 14 worldwide the inseam is pretty bad. and there's an embarrassing incident there in syria in 2018 and that resulted in uproar at home. against silent resulted in riots when they lost one -- five. that is clearly up one of the differences were soccer is not going to be necessarily but three other sports are. sort of interesting versus the

united states in a pretty polarized place. they seem the efforts of public diplomacy have been pretty haphazard. [inaudible] there's all aspects to be pretty divisive. so it might not be perhaps the best place, the starting point for showcasing liberal democratic sportsmanship in opposition to the rising of the world. we just like to hear of the purpose for thinking of the parallels drink that.

and maybe they are right now how big sporting events could be battled by democratic government going forward. strict not to go first and tells a little bit about what's in your chapter? >> i don't think if i have to answer now. [inaudible] the comparison between the cold war. i cannot begin with that. i think the difference between the two is sports were used about the cold war. war is expected. so it's the way to display the power of the u.s.

at the beginning in europe and france intervenes and 23b because. [inaudible] display, i think at least during the 20s were more important in the 50s or 60s. we can see in the 30s it was different there was a policy called policing in a space like italy and germany. we know the end -- might you consider growing the polarized

force the beginning of the war which occur in 1969. during the cold war war was impossible between the u.s. and the historic of the war. if i can continue maybe you have a question about my chapter? in fact i think we are very used to diplomacy has been invented in the 30s by italy or germany or a good book. in fact. [inaudible] >> is going to ask you the way your chapter reads very much as a france come up with that

and then it backfires completely. >> it's not for you do not read the french story. something which is new, is already written about it in an article for that review of cambridge. [inaudible] we can wonder did when did france begin. first of all i was treated by french on and after the first world war that was away for the french the beginning of the 20s it was a way of

service and a way of displaying remaining of polar for germany. it was a way to propose to, there was a fact way of displaying for the country which was strong after four years of a terrible war one median and 300,000 and affects the country was not able to be it's a way of showing the

french or very little. there was a game between a french national team in hungary. the french. [inaudible] i'm sorry i don't find the word. that responsibility of a hungarian territory. in 19207 as much epidemic and the french team one against the hungarians. with by the hungarian.

it was a way of asserting through europe. the major power was not spread by the result. >> this theme comes back a few times throughout the book. for the diplomacy to be effective just be successful it soccer? it's not totally obvious. for certain purposes doesn't matter for going to establish relations orifice more symbolic perhaps. he "soccer diplomacy" in interwar period i think people are somewhat familiar probably with german and italian can

you maybe talk to us a bit about the 1938 world cup and how it all comes to an end? >> first of all it was the. [inaudible] very good organization at the end victory. even so for the french competition it was very different. to build a very big study there is some modern study could not be compared with the italian one. the atmosphere the french were very happy with the german

team. there was some political atmosphere. [inaudible] the public was again the italians. they were shouting again there out for this player. and the italian player made these salutes at the beginning of the games. against the french. there is the idea. [inaudible] war presentation and at the end that they one. when you leave the french at the end of the competition

there's quite a great admiration toward the italians. and they want to follow this path. it's the idea in the very old nations of french during the 30s there is also difficult as a member of out weighs the number of those. at the end it was a really, really mix thing. the french are being considered finally the position was good with the competition was interesting. but there was a feeling of between france and italy.

>> there was a sense i got. just like any other foreign policy move there is a risk of it backfiring. heather, before we go to roy can i ask you basically the same question, obviously nato the conflict with the soviet union is very central to your chapter producing there any takeaways for today? is it any sense, what is your thinking there? >>-how nato approach east germany was quite challenging for them. the policy again on the travel restrictions was not just on athletes.

with the other scientists were not given on their science field that really did not make the news. we were there as the big athlete that made the news very much in the country to our host in need of these events. the policy kind of backfired from a pr sense within the nato country. nato has long struggled with this image and perfection of the countries have to pay a lot of money towards nato and supporting it. which of the get a return for it? and then they see nato's unlikely soccer teams to come or we have the best athlete, why is that? it became a pr battle with the

nato. and they're constantly trying to put forward a different these restrictions are in response to each german political action. it is their preventing of blocking that travel between east and west germany themselves but now with the creation of the wall. so they made sure the consumer pr campaign on this. basically all of the countries as they hosted different sporting events. it was quite challenging and then ultimately recognizing the east germany in the end kind of reduce the travel restrictions and east germany concedes in every sport quite strong the last couple decades.

>> i see, that is interesting. wechat about this a little before the webinar, the dutch government was really trying to get nato to be more flexible on this front. and yet could not really make it happen despite the fact the general was dutch at the time. it really shows with this international positions get you in terms of their actual power. let's move a little closer to the present. roy has a great chapter in the book that's more about diplomacy within this board and across countries i would say. the central figure of the chapter is jack warner what some of our audience may have heard of. roy joined talk with chapter bit? talk about some of things you discussed. >> reach into my final

panelist and all the viewers, i want to start my thinking for this event. my editors well to give me the opportunity to be involved in this book as well as a publisher and other contributors. before i came involved with this book i was aware to pursue a political interest. i cited two examples, not all of them used as a case of ping-pong diplomacy between the u.s. and china in the 1970s. another instance not so much of diplomacy, had to do with the use of dismantle their apartheid system.

that is of the apartheid boycott on the use of port to protect. the extent it contributed, the jury is still out. it has to do with the u.s. boycott of the olympic games in 1980. with the russian and soviet union at the time with afghanistan. the 1984 the soviet union boycott of the olympic games in l.a. in response to the us government invasion of grenada. before certain this book i was well aware of how the nation fits receive their relations.

this book exposes me to it a whole new -- as "soccer diplomacy" in itself. which is speaking to how nonstate actors like the ilc, it means in communication and the association. like the media, sponsors, and in particular competitions. that was an eye-opener for me. and i think that concept when it comes to "soccer diplomacy" early enablers to see. and people like jack could have an opportunity to influence the fortunes of bigger nations and soccer. until leverage of for interest

in soccer. true "soccer diplomacy", we see how the entire world system in general and one system in particular can be turned on its head is the opportunity to influence the running of things the influence of decision-making, to influence who gets whatever political tournament, the big men's world cup competition. or the smaller world cup's and the like. this particular impacted me so much i am not looking to do a follow-up paper exam 2007 in

the west indies. which in that case involves international cricket consul engaging in negotiation and communication also involved engaging with companies invested next project on my agenda. it's coming out of this discovery of mine to be involved sport constitutes its own interest in itself. and i think that is been a definite contribution thanks to coming up with this concept. think it is very useful as a

concept to explain dynamics as a nonstate actor as well as dynamically between nonstate actors state actors in international competition. >> if i could just jump in hereto, as the editor i find characters in the book. following up on the same steps roy said, was really fascinating about the geographical of the chapters within the text is not just kind of soccer power for the great powers diplomatically work soccer comes with player diplomacy. but it is, soccer is not very good state especially the past men's team in the 1950s playing against iceland. that was important for the

u.s. island icelandic relations and u.s. military as a whole. but also as well for states that are not the great powers diplomatically. vertically when it comes to the regional relationships. we only start to scratch the surface of that. what i am so excited for and i hope even more research particularly regionally. i think working beyond the cup and looking more at the continental regional competitions there is so much more that can come out you see "soccer diplomacy" playing out at the regional level and neighboring states. think this is where "soccer diplomacy" really has an opportunity to provide more insight to everyone really.

>> roy go ahead. >> decision making democratic structure decision-making where each country has a vote. you can be a country of 1 billion you have one vote of the same as england was 70 million or the u.s. with 300 million. one country, one vote. this gives a who has 30 goat votes. which one was president. you can vote as a block the african unit can vote as a block. so jack warner was aware of this pre-he leverage this to distance himself in the inter-

sanctum and to become -- when things were good. let's have bear in mind this, boys woke up in trinidad in 2001. the fee for elections present in 2002. jack warner voted for reelection in 2002. publicly taunt him for his support in winning the election bid. so that structure of decision making gives them inference within their operation of their organization. within jack warner told the

opposition is now influencing the english. in the german, he's influencing the trinidad government. it positions him and a network of relationships insight and outside to exercise this influence that he was able to exercise. terms of the impact i can see you are raised and i think raises it as wellin his conclusion. political impact economic impacts, psychological impact even though you have not one, trinidad was out in the first round. but it was not before the final. your title benefits if you look at jack warner he would see a tremendous impact

that is measurable this impact trickles down. in this country. it is a mental impact. if you look in terms of infrastructure, jack warner through his company through his company constructed for in trinidad and before. they cause 70 billion united states dollars for jack warner's company build those and then he got all of the contracts to provide food and services during the tournament and family travel agencies brought all of the teams down. so in terms of economic impact

in terms of infrastructure impact the country benefits from sports memorabilia and stuff like that. until the political impact is up in the air paid but for jack warner as an individual and as a black man is able to exercise to get better to play in it trinidad that is nothing less than a soccer queue. it only due because of his position and because of his proximity to the then reigning king. in terms of impact on different levels based on how we posted what were the basics? what would it cost? the different levels of basics. i'm hearing the question about

france and the lost badly. something a psychological impact with the french to say we are not dead yet. we are still live. they are some bolick political impacts. a symbolic effect on tournaments even though you may lose it badly. even though you may be out in the first round. it's a sense of pride, prestige, and power in that sense you get from tournaments that could last as long as the tournament but that is one of the impacts that these tournaments are. for a while had that impact in trinidad. in something you just mentioned. international all of the

things that roy mentioned through i guess his perspective struck a chord with me. it is the question of how social scientists should think about the organizational and big international sporting events. which neither organized by a single government, sort of enterprise. neither is it the pure market transaction. it is a hybrid things that involves a lot of different actors, sports associations, governments, sponsors, fans, all sort of intricately interacting with each other. that's not to say i've always had a soft spot she was a

political scientist at first woman to receive a nobel prize in economics for her work in this emerging order that comes as a result many different centers of decision-making. prospective interest in the rules. given some applied literature in the world of sports. literally i softcover papers on the olympics. a pulse of the security side out different actors and i love to read more on that. but to the question, one thing that is rightly interesting

the big international sporting events whether it's world cup, soccer tournaments at the olympics i suppose, i think more people around the world have very strong feelings than they have about the english national team. and so if you are interested in the role of soccer as diplomacy and to leverage it, and in some ways i suppose you have to pay attention to these sub national cases. such as the premier league or the champions league. think we are all reminded of it with this idea to create the super league was mentioned a couple of weeks ago. clearly after the externally strong reaction by the government as if this really were a matter of national

emergency the immediate response. her sick great column in the magazine is a british magazine. one thing is it touches on quite interesting is the american super league like leagues and different sports whether it is the nfl, nba or mlb, strikingly go back to the premier league or the champion. we find people around the world who know who james lebron is. but a great deal of american professional sports outside of america is far more limited than european soccer. and so you have to wonder why that is.

whether that is the organization of these legs and sports. one thing you might want to look at someone call a hyper- commercialized nature of these american super links new orleans, jazz, mind boggling into jazz this beloved local theme the first one to break the color barrier in baseball. and across the continent. and you look to los angeles. whether that was something that you have the state played

by super leagues, maybe more people would just start shooting at out. i know the others champions league, that sort of commercial front. all of these things you have that russian oligarchs, whether that is better. piecing out the policy lessons for how the sub national entrance national should be handled. once interested. [inaudible] it would be really interesting. >> if i could jump in on this one for a second period i think really the idea behind the european super leg, i really think you should think about in terms of industrial organization in the corporate strategy of the teams.

the american leagues are all quite closed with salary caps to really maximize profits in the way the european soccer leagues are not. obviously there is a tremendous amount of revenue. but the teams are not particular profitable. that i think is precisely what eliminating delegation dynamics was meant to address. the next step would be you introduce salary caps within the european super league. restart moving franchises around. and so i think that is really the background there. and that intention with what roy mentioned the one country one vote secured equal competition or this case more precisely the promotion relegation system that gives every team at least a theoretical chance to compete.

and so you really have this tension between prophet megan maximization on the one hand versus maintaining the more i guess. the comes from sportsmanship everyone has a chance to compete. i really -- it's not about competitiveness. no one plays about the german leak even though they win every year. they don't complain about the italian the and they win every year. through a first approximation as well. hi don't that is issue people were concerned about. it's more about the spirit of everyone having at least the chance on making it through. that's how i think about. i think it's clever for politicians to then jump to the rescue of that equal opportunity principal.

think that's is what worse johnson did pretty smartly think in retrospect strong views on the european super liquid you want to go? >> two things to complement or follow-up, talking about shifting the level of analysis from the peak to the chrome or the league. and it reminds me of the next point in that. [inaudible] you talked about the english premier league representative a form of power because it is

admired and in some parts of the world particularly in my part of the world, people get up at 4:00 a.m. in the morning, 7:00 a.m. in the morning to watch. that particular point i think is relevant in the caribbean with the emergence of the 1992 other leagues renamed themselves became a language to represent a particular quality of football into national league. that point about shifting the level of analysis i'm not as good in the fluency that i know and diplomacy whether or not it is a state. and with diplomacy analysis

shift into the non- seed actor. the point is if you bring the club and the league into the equation by including them as nonstate actors as it relates to the dynamic of international sports that its function as a former power between nations and countries. the second point about a super league, i go just briefly what they call a franchise league. it's the same teams every year. locomotion and relegation. my suggestion to the european guys of a franchise system. okay? but does not help promotion. [inaudible] fan identity to the teams you know? that has come to define fan

loyalty. which is all been problematic. a little fans have little or no saying the running of these team. their stakeholders and shareholders. and the shareholders still emerge. >> ironically it's a little different in germany which has the most inequality within its league probably. they are in control. i want to give you a chance to talk. >> if i can give a french point of view on this. what is at stake is americanization of the war. to the national league for good. [inaudible] it is the same now which is to

say the passivity of the club in europe has to be linked. went stake in the super league is to transform linked to a community some aware in a specific place. which plate everywhere. i know very well i some years ago. there was a broad brand. they worked to create a competition between sports clubs. >> thank you so we only have a few minutes left. a quick round of reductions

for the audience question is from nicola who asks what role do soccer really play in the soccer war? back who can answer this question it is more it was for the relationship which was based on the tension of immigration of fields and so on. social and economic problem. it protects two.

[inaudible] they could after or before. >> heather and roy g agreed that assessment? >> yes, i do. yes, i do. >> semi final question is, they are asking i reference it in the event description who is going to win the year old 2020 which will obviously not take place in 2020. it will take place a month from now. what you think? who wants to go first? >> i will say is a historian looking at the past and not predicting the future of not as easily predict the winner. from having been in germany in 2006 and been a volunteer at the world cup that year. >> very chauvinist. [laughter] [laughter] : : :

>> and so i would go for it. that's what i have to say. >> yeah, that it's ready. what you think? >> well, i think that that is something that is a very reasonable prediction. >> yes, i think that as well. obviously you'll have to go with this the best you can and it is

too deep of a disappointment. and we are out of time here at this time, we i want to thank our panelists for participating. and i want to thank you and ask you to have a good day. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> we are c