.. >> into bn conversation today

we want to be sure to say think it our partners tonight at the national library foundation this partnership, now in its tenth year presented by best-selling authors tonight we are thrilled to be hosting general award on - - academy word director who is here to talk about the latest book. many of you have already purchased copies but if you have not yet are after hearing the book talk and then to give to all of your friends and

family and if you like to ask any questions and then the q&a box we are especially excited to have this conversation with new york times best-selling author david mcginnis and i'm pleased to turn it over. thank you. >> thank you christie. sebastian is a test sebastian is a report i have long admired so it is great to see you, sebastian. it is concise and inspires more thoughts and questions which is what i love about it

to the physical and philosophical. 's with that physical journey, sebastian seems like a long thing to do. >> the last patrol and going out from washington dc to philadelphia we had to head to pittsburgh because it is a weird nomad land there not

that many people but it is a weird sort of world but it's also very interesting because to see the backs of the factories and then you see the cornfields and then when you hit pennsylvania and then i later found out it was the only east-west trending border. and into that ohio territory. and with that mountain gap. so we did this trip over the course of a year about 50 or

100,000 is a say in the book it's the only people who knew where we were there was one that i particularly enjoyed. >> there is one with you on the appalachian trail are those wide-open spaces that are stereotypical. >> i love wilderness i never had walk-through that before. and to be shot at by somebody. the police were looking for us in a helicopter.

it is long and complicated physically hard to do every few days we would walk through town buy some food and keep going so we are connected to society but also is completely illegal what we were doing that that game and it woke up that ten -year-old boy but we also had to avoid the train. and then walking along the tracks so you can see or hear a train coming that before that you could feel it. i'm not sure what you are picking up on that something is coming. a huge amount of energy headed toward juliet something you can feel.

>> the vibration. >> and then we would wait for the train to go by then we would step back out. but it was enjoyable to us. >> what was the most frightening moments? >> of course when you are on the track people with headphones and people get hit that way. but we were very careful but it does come up quite fast but at 80 miles an hour all kinds of things could happen and

then from the side of the train and if anything happened we would be can half that we would crouch down just waiting for it to be over. it was quite scary. >> was there a relationship of your experience in combat and your motivation to do this? >> there was. i had a similar experience we all depended on each other.

so a very marginal and dangerous place with the people that you are with. and it felt very good to be there with three or four other men who were taking care of each other and society with all of its comfort to make that more real and all we have to do is step out and now we are in an extremely real environment. that's what we are called for

to get along as best as we could. >> identical to what we experienced in combat. >> said to be used and misused and politically manipulated. freedom from what? freedom from responsibility? freedom from common sense? it seems like the most subtle on a relevant question for the times. >> freedom is a very loaded word. i'm happy to get into it i love talking about it. but anytime anyone uses freedom in that context

calling it with a civic duty what they really talk about the rights, their perceived rates. freedom is an issue as a hidden value that goes back thousands of years that you're free from being controlled that is through much of human history and a nomadic to go back and they traveled in groups and the first motorcycle gang all of the men in the iberian peninsula because of the descendents so

there freedom was completely stripped of them. so freedom is used against an enemy when you are part of a society and you rely on society because you stop at a stop sign in the red light but you don't have the freedom to say no. that is not part of what some people call freedom that is not your right.

so then you have to return the favor. you can debate them or challenge them in court but actually don't have the right to give yourself rights and that's where we misused the word freedom. >> in that sense you are declaring what is not freedom. >> there is no one definition there really isn't and if there were there wouldn't be such a wonderful word. things can tell people to be self-supporting so some say he was at his freest when he was poor.

that wealth can become its own dependency if you survive that then you are not entirely free either. so this point is not in my book but i spoke to an extraordinary man who is committing the worst crime there is and he has this background of all the predictors and he is self educated in prison but i asked him is it possible after 45 years to be freer in prison than outside? are you kidding?

of course it is. people on the outside are addicted to drugs, they are obsessed with social media in prison you are not free but you're not addicted to anything but eventually you will develop an honest relationship with yourself and that's a form of freedom that many people never managed to get to so this freedom which is very powerful because it is the most relevant. >> did you do that before the

book? >> i did. >> it is a very concise book. >> yes i had to make decisions and it was hard to take those things out and then to try to forge a transition in that world and then to keep with that narrative. but then they had that seamless experience and this guy is just a detour. in the book is divided into three sections.

and they are the primary ways to maintain the autonomy. so one that was the right feel then to provide the ultimate freedom no matter the circumstances. people who know much more about it have written beautifully about that. and then to write something new and fresh. >> let's talk about a few of mine but i learned some important lessons especially that notion of freedom of

discipline to master something like a craft but that discipline is and the freedom it is an experiment. but that notion of financial discipline? >> it gives people agency but i don't thank you get there without practice you are absolutely right. but this modern conundrum had to remain mentally and physically fit and have mastery over the skills that

we need? that's a new predicament for humanity of 200,000 years and our ancestors that involve a lot of walking and running and fighting and a lot of thinking with these amazing range and athletic bodies so that any person could make a practice that they have freedom but it would have been the same that is what it is with the discipline and practice of mastery it's what they call

first world problems so that's a new one to us. >> but with that creative aspect because they know the basis of the instruments. >> if you have the skills down you can fully express as an artist or whatever you can express the flow of ideas and when you are at your best it

feels like the things that you want to say or do that those are being channeled when you are at your best that it comes from the vehicle for it. and then pretty completely. >> in the book you do deal with the notion of freedom to loyalty. what does that freedom entail? >> humans don't survive by

themselves they survived very well we can't run very fast but in a group we are formidable. so the ultimate out of freedom and that doesn't happen very quickly so ultimately your freedom that you defend yourself against the enemy. so that means that you have to abide by data you won't be in that group for very long. so what street gang in the

mid- sixties and chicago back and then young black men in that era were extremely vulnerable to attacks. if you are part of a gang yourself so the vice lords were one gang but if anyone was in a fight whatsoever he would run towards that guy not be the other direction.

so by definition so now they put them in a car and the territory controlled by a rival gang as an individual so the vice lords certainly their safety was vastly improved so the point is that and then to be completely comfortable into be completely free of obligations. so as i say in the book have the right to freedom of oppression not freedom of obligation and the other obligations in this country

and it is the organization of this country. >> what is a similarity between the vice lords? >> at the platoon level with that combatant that resembles more of the war zone but those similarities were very close. your identity. the fact so are you a member

of the platoon? are you vice lord? or are you not? so to answer the question because i know somebody will protect me. and oddly considering those consequences, belonging to a group like that and maybe with the exception of having children but to be deeply anxious and human but a whole society could feel that way and with this miraculous moment and everyone was

sleeping shoulder to shoulder. and that could feel like age will be a. >> so what were the rules? >> you don't do anything to jeopardize the group you pass it safely and comfortably. >>

[inaudible] but then and then we just wanted to see if we can do it that we could do a lot. [laughter] you can do a lot more than you think. that it was a superhot day. >> but it was 110 degrees heat index. >> it was a heat wave. >> and just wrap 70 pounds on. and then you take that backpack and then you just do anything. and then to do this circle so

it's akin to what you would do for your family at three in the morning what would you do? >> what were the moments out there you felt the most free? >> we were making our own decisions where we going to sleep i was going to stop? let's have a cigarette. i have a foot phone so now

let's go to the diner. >> also was a 55 mixed breed and those that were at least 60 years old it was really classic america then we just keep walking and then i'll be

back in 20 minutes that i didn't want to stick around. >> so you mentioned they decide to separate that way? >> so with that society with the laws of mobility and that is true was literally a boxer or and in a fighter in the

area of the country and then with irrigation and agriculture that them in a spaniard show up in the late 15 hundreds they were immediately defeated the apache warriors could move and outrun the us calvary. and with 1886 almost my grandmother's time. and with that human ability the world record in ten days

1000 miles and ten days but uniquely smaller individuals or groups it is not a good predictor of the rules about 50 percent of the time. and then the big huge army all the time in the empire the early 15 hundreds they slaughtered one third of the ottoman forces and about the

us military to a standstill and basically a smaller entity uses less resources and that is true and then finally how you change things when the established powers are against you so one of the ways to do that effectively and use those abilities which are slightly different than 100 years ago

and then they would take a bullet on the street for what they believed in the then to be in public in the streets and those repercussions that they are love to do so then with those soldiers with the bayonets. they didn't know what to do is and what policemen can handle

ten then? and with that they managed to win the good fight. >> going back to what i consider controversial. >> and with the taliban but let me just say who will get freedom in afghanistan? i don't mean to be cynical that and then to be of themselves which is a huge

downside. >> you have to understand this is freedom in their own way and that we are free from your alcohol. we are free from your corporate domination and that pornographic content and that is not true. so i hope they disappear from the face of the earth. but you do have to understand people find freedom in their own way and ultimately that is the freedom to do so.

>> the ground that you walk on it was fraught with tension with those settlers and then others that were free. >> yes and the settlers in that area so you know there is the place where they stood and where they took over that area for good was a huge monolith no one knows how they live

dinner where they moved it but it disappeared off the face of the earth. >> that beyond the frontier with enormous freedom for everybody they were not under the constraints of the government a very onerous outfit at the time. but of course it was like it was self defining and it wasn't enough and then we collaborated with each other but then we had to engage in

very strict and as the adult male and that you were shunned by the community is your community gives you freedom. >> it wasn't just the white settlers but the us government to take away that freedom. >> it's complicated and then to renegotiate within

500 miles of every direction it's incredibly effective but then the territory of the tribes that they defeated that could be more powerful. >> so it was very complicated and in philadelphia to protect the rights and the quakers were very good about that. >> we touched on this in the beginning but what you are thinking about before covid?

>> of just about everything that keeps us alive from america and americans society. and then it was just overseeing by the state government. so on some level then you stop at the red light you don't have a choice we live the life with a mask. you might disagree with them if you are part of the society when a change through the course you just have to go

along with it. and made ask you to do a damn thing that - - as part of the deal to enjoy the benefits of the society because they say there is no children and the adults. >> so that's my next question. so that freedom makes me sound like the old funky and then to take that away that society.

>> yes they are extremely paranoid and extremely controlling and with that demographic it is a very controlled society and that they feel controlled and then that nanny state to make sure that everybody is safe saw these things are very good at keeping people alive that somehow they cannot survive on around some people seek different places they go to alaska or somalia.

>> 400 miles you couldn't stand much less walk. >> i'm sorry thank you. but the question is the form of that. >> thank you for reading it.

used to be in a prosperous town people do not have summing pools in their town inside of the factories and the broken bridges and then to be cool on a hot summer day and those working in the steel mills i will never talk about my divorce on the trip the other guys never brought it up it was just never mentioned but equally important as knowing when to stop and to

return back to our lives that is a very important thing. the solution with a huge amount whether that is morphine or alcohol but the solution itself can become addictive and then to free from something else you have to be very aware of that. and then your human dignity is there a completely different mechanism.

>> i really enjoyed talking to you. >> let me just add and thank you for those wonderful questions. i remarried have two children that can and well for me personally and i would do anything for them. i just want people to know that. >> sebastian thank you. take care everybody, by his book. >> thank you everybody.

born in texas 1920, came to washington, 1942 and as a reporter working for the statesman after her white house years liz carpenter continued her career in dc as an activist as a humorist in public relations expert. >> before you answer that question i want to commend c-span we have a different account one - - this is