for tonight on book tv, under author interview program afterwards, former senior advisor the biden administration part talk to the bill frets about the u.s. response to the coronavirus pandemic. matthew smalley, executive director president trump 7076 commission and peter woods, and a critical look at the 16th 19 project which examines the foundation of americans beginning and jean becker chief of staff george w. bush recalls the 41st president presidential life rated full schedule information is online apple tv .org. okay so your program guide. >> a president of the library. [inaudible]. thank you so much for joining us for this tonight's program with local author about his new book. it's received golden ray videos

from fortune magazine the guardian and many others. i also want to thank others whose generous contributions hate programs like these possible. if you're not a member, please consider joining. you can find us on our website and i also take the time to think craig jones for marketing and they have helped us all year long with our programming without their help, we would've never been able to stay connected pretty so thank you again for all of your help pretty copies of jim's book are also available on a website. and also diane's book and we put a link in the chat. what else do we have our program will be recorded and will send a link. in our follow-up e-mail and also graciously answer questions so you can use the raise your hand

function in the bottom of the screen and we will let you ask your question at the end of jen's talk. and so now it is my honor to introduce local resident jen campbell hosted the national syndicated radio show in with jen campbell. 1490 jph and hard-hitting interviews leading figure. [inaudible]. politics is forced printed in the first executive interview former new york governor at the resignation prayed in the first interview is ceo. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. in the first broadcast interview with analyst, and government in american history. thank you jen for joining us and welcome. >> thank you and is my honor and i see some people i recognize out there so particular happy

the most are coming out of the way tonight. even if it's going to your living room. embedded seo that it is so nice she jumped out and invited me that the minute the book was going out. in the boy scouts in the library etc. and thank you for inviting me and director of the library for inviting me just go read we've got a reverse last week. so i'm honored it to do this. i think the people are going to be stunned at how little they know about the made-up story despite the fact that the general perception is one guy operating behind a curtain who pulled off a big on scheme and actually he was disabled over 40 years i all kinds of ways from co-conspirators glycol is. reporter: as major investors who actually bail them out on occasion and came to power to restore him.

and willfully blind conspiracists, hedge fund, spent all the money. i call the unwitting conspirators, five investigations that they have done. in his high school graduate, he hired two floors under his business with top notch business school graduate so this is kind of a world wind. me how to give you my first question that i always have to answer is that we had nothing to do with finding a bernie death. and that i was coming home from having been up since 430 in the morning during the morning show at the intersection of the beach and post road. and bernie made off passes away applicable hundred yards from the shell station i was going to stop and get his neck. my phone starts to explode and texts and phone calls. and i am told that on bloomberg

radio and ten minutes and then it already announced in on the website so i had to go sprinting home to do a seven minute interview with bloomberg and they knew about it before i did. and then i got the new york post and they asked me to write this in the middle of interviews new york post asked me to write a 2000 word article in the afternoon for the next day's paper that the editor said that he would put in the front page of i would get it done. i was like heavy rain 2000 words. in this short time span. pretty said is on five or six i got out of bed and looked at the new york post app is the number one trending article in the time that i guess a more of the tabloid sites called the daily mail of london called me and asked me if i knew who was getting the body from the bureau of prison.

[laughter] and i said you are kidding me right predict and they said no they weren't kidding. as i can answer that question. i don't know i guess mother bizarre ones. in a picture that was in one of the articles, you may have seen it and it shows made of charging $7000 in one month on the corporate credit card. it doesn't know me that she about a ponzi scheme but look at the piggyback prevent any weight that got picked up by one tabloid and then i saw all of the world, all these articles coming in and i recognize 57000, a credit recognize some foreign language tension spanish and on and on. so not one of the sample is called me to find out but there were 57000 all across the world. so now will go back to 2011 and had this thing ever happened.

they don't know who i am. and all of a sudden bernie is talking to me. for about eight years and i was taping a radio show. in the day before the author who had worked with the family said that and are made off with talked me off of the record. so i called him and i readily jumped all over him. he said father give you all this money to buy a co-op and last month for this went on to did you get that money back right away and in the sing absolutely. they seemed very open and answered any i wanted to brady and the shows on tomorrow he said will we say it live and i will listen and if you say the same thing i'm going to make sure that you do. so we listened in the second coincidence which everybody knows right here already was ruth was moving his mother from

florida and i offered to take her out to dinner. so andy said enough of the beach house that was in december and there was no one in the restaurant we got there and she arrived in some classes which he did not even take off inside of the restaurant for a while then she ordered that ship salad and she proceeded to devour it like she is not seen for you. we ended up hitting it off and she was incredibly nice. good chemistry we were walking out and i said, can you a picture and she stopped and she said your wired aren't you she thought i said right but once i convince her that i was not wired is just conversation off the record, she hooked me up with bernie. and took about two weeks of e-mails to prove to come together so i told bernie and said they have vouched for your sincerity so i'm going to talk to you hopefully to dispel the myths about this. there is a misperception.

tell me his version of reality. and ironically andrew made off made off on december 10th, bernie confessed afternoon before he was arrested by the fbi, admitted bernie confessed and andrew never said another single word to his father ever again. summa bernie bowsher andrew, he was in making you network something. i bernie and i go back and forth seven page handwritten and writing letters as well as e-mails was he had a stroke there and about 400 pages and is how we got to where we got. and i told him then that i gotta figure out what to do it with this. i never written a book. but again an agent we searched around for publisher and i got another agent and he sold it inside a contract inside one week. this was started it and i told

bernie that i would write down every single word and he said i accept those conditions and that's what he did. so that leads us up to the store now. i try to convey first off, this was an event that happened, this put been stopped in five minutes in three different ways at least. ... ... all these co-conspiraton the various ways i guess he would have been caught

relatively quickly. another thing that surprises people is normally the wizard behind the curtain and in this case bernie was on the 17th floor behind locked doors his own sons didn't have access to and then the 19th floor that was 100% legitimate and they did a trade for discount brokers looking for the firm like schwab. so anyway, he's downstairs and in trusting the guy that made all the money who was the biggest of the big and took $7 billion out of that hedge fund that is nine times what bernie made off stole in the business when it was having troubles but the family obviously took a lot of money out when they were discharging 57,000 a month.

but he's the one that paid all the money and three others each paid a billion or two as well. the most unfathomable thing to me was you would think logically that what happened is bernie is running this and is highly regarded with regulators on wall street. he treats his customers with great respect and you would think something bad must have happened. he must have lost some money and while it isn't legal he says i'm going to buckle down, catch up, pay whatever happens and get back to normal. bernie told me a story just like that that he had never told anybody else, not even his lawyer and his lawyer i spoke to because bernie waved to the attorney-client privilege which is unusual as you know. so i said okay so at least there's some logic even though you made a mistake because it

was criminal to start betting everything and read the forensics reports. i talked to the fbi, bankruptcy and low and behold, at the same time he was building this successful business that became the number three from zero broke the monopoly of the new york stock exchange for the criminal enterprise on wall street in the same time there's different types of employees he hired for each. he found honest people he could manipulate and who didn't understand what he was doing. you can imagine how compartmentalized his mind was. the legitimate business was worth 3 million in and of itself as any exclusive hedge fund so these four guys came to have this power they could extort returns, he grew to hate them

and in a sense it was a reverse robin hood because he had a whole bunch of what i would call average not high worth investors putting money in it over 30 or 40 years of average wealth built up over time. the ponzi scheme was easy to detect by the way because all you have to ask is where is the money, are you trading with anybody, who are you trading with. not much more than that. where's the bank account. do you have an accountant and by the way, he had an accountant who was a one-man strip mall not even licensed to do big public accounting. at one point he said somebody should call to find out if it is a car wash and it turned out that it was a laundromat. he was also invested with bernie so none of these simple tests were done and why is that, we will go to the sec.

they conducted five separate investigations and never uncovered the ponzi scheme or the 17th floor, never really figured out that they were charging him with the same offense that cleared him the time before. they thought he was doing frontrunning. that's when you are a market maker jumping right in in front of your customer because if you know they are going to order, he knows what the customer is going to do, you jump right in front of it because you know the market is going to go up. that's how they thought he was able to guarantee results because he knew what was going on. the funny thing was he never did front money and never once would have done that to his customers. we can talk about robin hood if anybody's heard because they've abused their customers in a way

that bernie never would have. >> so, as they miss the investigation after investigation, there are some whistleblowers looking at this starting in the late '90s and [inaudible] he didn't understand harry and they didn't want to listen to him. they thought he was a disgruntled competitor. but to give you some examples, here is a way that the sec could have solved it in five minutes and bernie told me he gave his account number and the depository trust company and all you have to know is all your trades have to go through. he gave the account number which

was 0646 and the market making business everything could be traced and they did that no problem so he gives them the number and expects them to ask okay we are calling about his investment advisory business and we are told it is the 646 account and they would have found out in five minutes there was no such account or any investment advisory or ponzi scheme trading ever to go through and guess what, they didn't make the phone call even after he gave them the information. it's pretty amazing. the whistleblowers knew. the strategy that sounded very complex i could never find any of his victims or even the traders who could explain it to me but if you understood it conceptually it was very simple it should have lowered the stock market which means highly

correlated which means most of the time it should perform as the stock market does. the way he could figure out within two hours was he found it was actually 5% in other words it couldn't do anything bernie had said and by the way it couldn't have gone up every month. he never had a negative month in 20 or 30 years so the strategy never made sense and no one apparently did. so where did all this money come from that was going to his hedge fund? it was going to the feeder funds and these are whose jobs it is to say i have the money she is very conservative i'm going to look across five or six portfolios and put her money with exactly what fits her objectives.

in other words a lot of due diligence that i promised before i take her money and she would feel comfortable and then trusts me to put her money in their. in return for that, the hedge fund charges its normal fees which everyone owes us 2% of assets and 20% under the hedge fund capital and it takes just 1% for due diligence and helping to do administrative work. these guys what they ended up doing, bernie didn't allow any due diligence which right off the bat would ask why would they accept that. maybe because he passed on all those lucrative fees that i mentioned back to the feeder fund basically so they wouldn't ask any questions. so he was basically taking money in, no fees other than stealing it as a ponzi scheme and giving hundreds of billions of dollars to the feeder funds and what are really kickbacks if you will which they call fees and in

return they didn't ask any questions. not only did they not ask questions but bernie made each of them sign an agreement that they had no discretion on the investment. at the same time he told the sec that he had no discretion on the investments, the feeder funds did and all he did is execute trades. so you can see you have the sec missing investigations never having the right people, they never looked through the look te investigative ponzi schemes, never asking bernie any questions so they would just get fees in returns for taking people's money and often times not even telling them they were putting it with his funds. they were supposed to be diversified. i will show you some slides in a bid that show how he pulled this off but he had a small staff on the 17th floor these were high

school graduates, didn't understand wall street. the trades were all fake and they didn't realize it was illegal and never realized it was a ponzi scheme in 40 years and just to show you how he knew how to hire his administrative assistant who was a good source of mine on the floor is 100% honest, he paid $125,000 a year with no ira. she did all of the phony trading. her last year. her $670,000 salary and she had a $58 million ira at the same job basically so you understand why she didn't talk nor does she ever figured out because all of her money was in the firm when it went down so she didn't know

it was a ponzi scheme. it's blowing up now. all these folks have lost money, 19.5 billion and they thought they had 65 billion. so you turn to the securities and investment protection corporation, the equivalent of the fbi c. the fdic has been around since the new deal and has never failed to pay the money that it says it owes up to that limit to any investor and never costs the u.s. government a dollar. sipc on the other hand didn't tell people they didn't intend to cover a ponzi scheme. they said there's no real investment activity so we can't go for it and furthermore we are not going to recognize the final statement. we are going to recognize only the original investment value. so imagine you are merrill lynch opening up your statement and

finding out that number isn't real and furthermore that it doesn't intend to cover it and that they didn't have enough money to cover it. but for 16 years before bernie went down that they lacked enough money to handle the brokerage so what do they do, not one dime of the payments came out of the fund. any victim that had withdrawn more money than they put in after the years they would clawback money.

the case law supported that, but a lot of victims not only have the money that they've lost even though over the 30 years they may have taken all the more they may have had no money left but they had their homes and ira, the average age of a victim was 75-years-old and some of them had to go back and work in walmart and things like that and in my mind if they failed five times they didn't have the money honestly to pay them back why shouldn't these investors have basically cleared bernie as legit and at the same time this was going on, the t.a.r.p. program was putting $800 billion into wall street firms at the same time to keep them alive while the victims went down through the court proceedings

for years over money that had been called back. now there is one other area that also totally missed of this ponzi scheme and that is his bank, j.p. morgan. the only entity anywhere that could see into his account and how much money was really there, he told me he never had more than $5.9 billion on deposit and what was called the 703 account, the last three digits. the rest was supposed to be in the market or was fake ponzi money. they didn't even understand it was for the investment advisory they thought it was a legitimate market making account even though it had been a bank of new york for 30 years and if you have an equity strategy that is quite simple to say the bank account has got to show payments for trade, counterparty, and

it's got to show dividends there should have been $4 billion of dividends both in this account and payments to counterparties nonstop instead, $170 billion through that account, 170 billion. there wasn't one dollar of dividend ever deposited or one payment to a counterparty ever made and j.p. morgan never uncovered that and that is only one of the three things j.p. morgan screwed up. i went to talks with jamie dimon who is the ceo of j.p. morgan now and i've got to tell you it tested his character. i asked him if i could come in and speak to the people there even though j.p. morgan completely screwed up and he let me do it and just this week i offered to give him a book and told him i wouldn't be insulted if he blew it off. but he has taken the book and at the same time his claim to fame

is they raised 14 back so he claims to be the most successful ponzi scheme despite the fact he got the money from other victims. he refused to see me three times because the truth is more complex than he tries to parlay. that 14 billion he took $2 billion in visa expenses off the top of that. that came out of the sipc fund. it's still 2 billion that could have gone in my mind the bulk of it to the investors that lost all their money. the final thing before i show you some slides, this scheme in many ways was also a tax fraud scheme. there were two comes conspiracy. one is they were doing major criminal tax fraud.

they were calling up and then he would call during tax season and say i need these two kind of his office at the gate. no one has ever been prosecuted criminally for that. none of the hedge fund managers who did the due diligence and fumbled in had ever been penalized criminally. the other thing was international feeder funds and one in particular you will see the picture later on, incredible amounts of dirty money in other words they were doing money laundering for the russian oligarch and colombian drug lord money to the extent they threatened j.p. morgan. again the government decided never to go after these folks and it's a little dangerous to

go after these guys but on the other hand it was illegal. bernie said to me he didn't even know who was in the international feeder's. i will talk briefly about reforms and then i will show you some slides and you can ask some questions. first was an individual and i tried to say that they need to think like a doctor in terms of that hippocratic oath. nobody understood what bernie was doing. they necessarily assume the government is going to be there.

they didn't have the funds to reimburse people and didn't feel that they were obligated since it was a ponzi scheme so you need to take responsibility for your own investments in a sense. you need to be conservative and understand it. in the market has gone up 9% a year for 100 years. bernie was paying about 11% in the last few years. warren buffett would say invest periodically regularly and a low index fund and take that 9% and sleep at night. in the end, hundreds of people should have gone to jail and literally only a handful did and when bernie passed away it was the last single person in prison for what is the biggest ponzi scheme in history. and if you will let me now, let me show you now some slides.

when i did the cbs sunday morning interview, jim was the correspondent and he found these documents so compelling that we just sat around the table and we were going to walk through all where i first had lunch and they would go to the bagel shop we were going to kind of do that but he got so into the documents. this is the post article by the way, the 2,000 words and what i thought was great he simply couldn't explain. that is the fundamental issue here. he couldn't tolerate losing money so the legitimate business he was making commission money and when the market is done he's making his commission. the investment advisory business

don't make money on every trade but he couldn't live with it and they put that headline in and i thought that was a very good catch on their part. this is a lunch outside with when we were leaving. you will notice this picture unlike the first one after a couple of years we would have regular lunches and then a lot of text messaging and e-mails and you know, she lost $800 million in net worth, paid 100 million to the justice department, they left her with two and a half billion which 500,000 went to lawyers and she's the most resilient human being and had no complaints about it with me. she said we are from queens. we are average people. i'm not driving a beat up car.

she moved into an apartment eventually and was paying $2,900 a month, she had to turn in every receipt over $100 and she was just functioning. various trained from bernie and also telling me frankly she was upset he had some affairs she found out about during this whole process. they were dating since they were 13-years-old. this is andrew madoff. his girlfriend is the person who let me into access to a lot of people and who told me that despite her belief to the depth of her soul she thought andrew was innocent but she told me if you find it i will accept it which i thought was pretty amazing and she was true to

that. she sent a letter a couple days ago saying she loved the book and basically thanked me for pursuing the truth. this is what freaks jim axelrod out. there's the front page and and page and that is the seven-page spaced letter. these letters would come out with just compulsion to rationalize his behavior. on the other side is a one sentence letter to andrew and catherine whom you just saw and it says i'm so sorry, not even love dad but just so sorry and that was his apology. that's what he could get out. he is writing these passionate seven-page letters and would write his son only a one

sentence letter saying i'm so sorry. so that says a lot now. this was an actual victim and as you will see these are all legitimate and a fidelity fund, u.s. treasury market, treasury bills and there was so much detail. every single thing on this page is fake except for the name of a victim or firm. they would come stuffed with trade confirmations. they would come chronologically in order and gave the victims a sense of so ordered and structured and remember he said he passed on all those management fees because he was just making commissions he

wasn't really making the decisions he was just doing the trading. where that box is is where the commission is supposed to be listed and you will notice some of the flagrant tree he didn't quite get. there were also trade confirmations. there was also confirmations with the prices that didn't match anywhere near the range of that day's trading so there were ways. this is one way i talk about the trust which is where everything has to clear so it has to be there. he had a system that showed the depository trust and if you notice this is from the date of november 30th until a security position at that time it was in

december so literally he was making up. deposited into his personal account at morgan stanley and then it went to the market-making account which was in the bank of new york which was a legitimate businesses bank account and then it went into the back door of the market-making business hidden in the trading profit and this was profound because there was an $800 million of what looked like trading losses until the money was pumped in. but who led that, andrew and

mark madoff so it was incriminating how could they not have known that he had all this money 800 million is a lot of money. i was able to find literally the one person in the firm that saul the actual vouch for whether he had seen it and this story is in chapter eight. i think you will get a kick out of reading it and what were the questions there and the first determination on the family's complicity on the knowledge of the scheme. now this is what he called the file. he would promise you in this

case 18% for the year so november and it has you up for about 9% so all of a sudden he's got to get you in a month the 18%. the literal translation is to push up. it's slang for sexual intercourse and what he was doing in the file is putting whatever it would take in the trades to push up to that 18% which means you might have to show 100% gain to give 18 person that he promised and this was going on for decades. these are the actual out of date to 1980 that he was using during the $65 billion scam. i took these pictures. the fbi turned them back to the forensics consulting firm and they were locked in the closet. they let me go in and take pictures of the machine.

think $65 billion. this machine all it did is print out fake stuff. there's the spreadsheet that was figured out everything was fake into hours and on the right what is interesting is there was a fund that copied a mutual fund and that blue line represents the actual results from the strategy if you did it legitimate. the red line is the fake read. notice no investment line looks like that. you know what that is it's the new york mets equities result because they had their account with them and they had 483 accounts with bernie. that's what theirs looks like over that time period and it

went up 20% if they were the same strategy. so looking at the fund that couldn't have been done. this is the infamous american express charge that charged 57,000 that month. there's all kinds of folks in the family who didn't work at the firm who were basically using the firm as a piggy bank. the irony is he was charging zero dollars on it but everybody else was jumping into it. remember i mentioned that accountant in the one man in a strip mall. he had all of his tax stamps and stationary out of long island because bernie did his own. they had all of the equipment and that is the guys name also found in the warehouse was all

these lottery tickets. nobody knows what they are for but to me they represent the desperation trying to figure out how to get out of it because he told me at the end he was hoping there would be a nuclear attack on wall street so that it would wipe out all of his records. that's how he was thinking. i wouldn't be surprised if he was buying lottery tickets at the same time to try to figure out how to get out of it. now this is the international money laundering story. this is sonia. she ran the money laundering fund and runs a bank in austria basically taking money out of russia to her bank and then to bernie and the scary thing is she looks like bernie. we talk of an evil soulmate. she's also never been criminally charged but she had a lot of

money. this is how i ended. i dedicate the book to my father who gave me the moral foundation that bernie sorely lacked. i tie this back to eleanor that i mentioned was his legitimate honest secretary. she was friends with all the folks that came up at the same time with the firm and she said it used to be absolute torture when some people go one way on a path and some the other way. in the end it's no more than a morality tale and tragic at that as you know mark committed suicide, andrew died of cancer and there were other suicides as well. to get right down to it, the decision to take that path, even bernie had legitimate and

illegitimate so it's really a tremendous story and i hope that gives you a little bit of a flavor of it. i think you will find it a fun read and get the message that i tried to get across that this wasn't a one man scheme, it was a failure of the system. you may be stuck with more of me because netflix is getting in on my book and i'm supposed to hear literally later tonight or tomorrow so you may see this on netflix. that would be exciting for a guy that's never written a book. does anybody want to shoot some questions at me? >> we have some questions in the chat actually to start with. this is during the presentation why do you think these investors

didn't analyze the statement why do people continue to be swindled by these ponzi schemes. >> often, they did and because they look so official, i know some that went through every single statement because they might be 50 or 60 and one month but the other thing is that this was an affinity crime and 85% on jewish charities. this whole network was communicating and going to -- ii interviewed jeff matthews today. he ran a hedge fund for 23 years and you know what he told me, he's one of the most honest people i've met. he told me he had 80 investors over those 23 years and in those 23 years one investor asked him what he was doing. none of the others did, with his

reputation. bernie had a pristine reputation. how does that excuse the fund because for me that is the question. they were being paid to be expert. they had asked the question and verified it. bernie didn't allow any independent custodian. an independent custodian has the asset. they are there and they know the trading is there. bernie wouldn't allow that for obvious reasons and never did. people want to also believe it. there are a lot of people who knew something wasn't right but you know what if you do a little front running, maybe i'm going to look the other way let's look the other direction and then

there were others who didn't know it was a ponzi scheme and they are complicit in that sense. you've got to understand the strategy. he designed it that way. he would try to explain stuff so no one would understand it. nobody seemed to get it. by the way, they run a group in washington that does that. they look at investment returns and results and figure it out ina couple of hours about the se time the lessons never got back to the examination team on the ground because they were so thoroughly coordinated.

that message never got back along with a failure. i hope i answered that. kind of long-winded maybe. i think psychologically if he got in trouble and made a mistake and took the wrong path because he lacked the courage to get out of it but he did it at the same time, that's when it becomes hard to understand so he has tremendous powers of compartmentalization which by the way he had no insight even though it seems kind of apparent. so when he was successful and

then couldn't accept losing on the other side, he didn't know what to do. this is where he lacks remorse in his mind. in his mind he was pressured relentlessly by greedy investors. they wanted returns. always positive. he had to deliver. he had hundreds of millions to buy homes because he couldn't say no. he saw the victim of his investors. he said to me i am a product of a culture of wall street and if you've never managed the assets, you won't know what i'm talking about. they don't pay their taxes, their money is offshore and all this was was deflecting responsibility he couldn't take

responsibility for basically anything. it was always someone else's fault and always pushed on to someone else. when he said they were greedy investors, who was the person telling them what the returns were and making up the returns, who was giving them everything they wanted bernie. >> do you think that his biggest investor knew what he was doing or suspected anything? >> schapiro was one of the big four. they obviously knew that it was short cash. they bailed him out. it's not likely they knew it was a ponzi scheme because they left their money in. when you look under the hood they did a pretty good job, but

i think that they were completely complicit in the tax fraud. he actually dictated but the smallest of the big four not only did he not understand the strategy, he said don't tell me, i don't want to know what it is. >> did bernie ever talked about his prison experience and how did he adjust after living such an incredible lifestyle? >> we didn't end up talking much about that because the assumption was i had to come down there at some point and then they had me telling it. but i will say that bernie has a charisma, more of like a

grandfatherly and he knows how to bring people in and i think they thought he was cool because he pulled off this incredible thing. so i think that he was doing all right. he followed everything about the case, the court cases. you look at the stuff he gave me and it was unbelievable memory recall. he was reading all the transcripts. so, he was staying very plugged in. he had his story and he stuck to it. he would admit to me the ponzi scheme and the stuff that he criminally admitted that he would've never admitted that it started one day before 1992, ever. he stuck to that story and of course it looked to me like it was going on since the early 70s, so he could never come clean and i don't know that he ever did come clean to himself. he thought he built a legitimate business and he wasn't given

enough credit for that. his investors at one point he told me anybody that thinks that you are going to earn twice the treasury bill rate, they should have known and i warned them that there is a risk of fraud. the goal there could have been fraud. why didn't they find it? its stranger than fiction and i don't know if this is conveyed but nobody knows this it is largely untold so it's kind of good to get the word out and into perspective. i hope you do by the book and read it. and diane's book, independent bookstore so your supporting a local greenwich firm.

i can send to anybody that wants a signed book late. you are welcome to contact if you want to talk directly and you can ask any questions you want anybody else? i actually have a question. i'm just curious if the investigation and if any has led to any reform and policies or better investigations for others. >> that is a good question. i've talked about this because he is the one that basically uncovered the ponzi scheme. after it all went down they did talk and said he is very good now at detecting ponzi schemes and they come every month.

he said if one happened to offshore. remember we talked about the money coming in, this one was done offshore but that is the only way. now, other reforms -- in the book i talked about how sipc is both owned and run by the industry and they should be made independent like the fdic and properly capitalized. i don't think that the investor fund should be able to say they do due diligence. there should be some legal requirements so he knows he did follow the steps and the assets do exist. it needs to become more

proactive. people think that's what the fcc does. no it comes in after the mess and tries to clean it up. i don't know if you know about robin hood but it's very hot right now. it says they give free trade. they direct the trade to exchanges in return for a rebate called payment order flow and guess who invented this? bernie madoff but he didn't screw his clients on price. he was taking such a rebate that they were getting price execution. to the extent they paid 30 or $40 million and paid a tuition because they were so greedy they were taking so much money. what do we say that do no harm.

massive ongoing trading is not going to work. you're going to send in trade. to me they do sanction but they are still making all of their money and payment for both and basically to follow everybody off a cliff because when you make money in trade this is how it happens. the market was going up but then you say i'm a genius i'm going to go on and borrow money because this is so easy. then you know it's going to happen, i'm going to lose all my money and i'm forced to sell it and that is what happened and you find out you can't beat the market and particularly when you are in your basement without access to the information. to me, those are the type they

should be protecting investors and doing more stuff up front to disclose with the free trading really means and that they are not screwing their customers by giving them inferior pricing. these things never seem to totally go away unfortunately. what have the undergraduate and graduate schools done regarding between ethics and business. did bernie impact the way they are trained? >> what was the first part? and impact on business rules? >> or teaching ethics in business. >> you know what made me laugh, i'm doing a virtual zoom to the

entire alumni body in june, and a guy asked to join the panel because he did research with a harvard professor who talked to bernie. well, guess what i have been to to talk about that professor. he's a professor of ethics in the business school and he lied to bernie by taking his calls without telling him and in his book he asked bernie about andrew's death and he said bernie spoke about it for half a second and then switched to interest rates. this is an example of how sociopathic bernie was. i asked about that and he said first of all, the guy told him it was an interview about ethics, not directly the scheme and not that he was taping it either and he said i was on suicide watch with the prison when andrew died. so this guy is an ethics professor and i intend.

i'm sure it will come as a bit of a surprise. this same professor had a book and both of them had major problems with their ethics. i interviewed him on my show but you should be able to it needs to be engraved in the culture of the school and not just one course. i went to a business school in dartmouth and it is very culturally focused on team play and doing the right thing not back stabbing each other. i can't speak for some of the others. you know who i'm talking about. >> it looks like this is our final question. did you find your entire

experience? >> somebody asked me that like first off i find myself in 2011 the most vilified in the entire planet. they all trust to be with their legacies and they knew that i was going to pursue the truth. it is totally surreal. it is fortuitous he dies before the book comes out and i am on cbs and now netflix is interested. the director told me that if i go with him in this documentary will be seen by 100 million people in 28 days.

i mean, it's totally surreal. the director is saying people say i have to get your book and i'm saying something is wrong here. the director is basically begging me to work with them. shouldn't it be the other way around, so it is surreal. my dream was this would be the definitive account of the story and the untold story all of that would come out and i think this will end up being it in part because madoff is passed away and nobody will be able to get to that side of the equation. so hopefully this book will sit. one of my idols who wrote the

book on enron called the smartest guys in the room and peter is also a friend. i wanted this to be sort of like that. this was kind of my hope i might be in the minor league. that's what my hope is. >> thank you so much for joining us. we are so lucky that we got you. you are going to be very busy for a long time with this book. thank you everyone for joining us. good night.

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i am the president of the council of the library foundation of los angeles. it is my pleasure to welcome you all to this evening that has been cocreated by the council and the library foundation. we needed to share this evening's interview not to simply because we