insurance now more than ever it starts with great internet. ♪ ♪ wow, along these television company support book tv on cspan2 as a public service. >> next number to be history professor patricia sullivan examines robert kennedy's role in the civil rights movement. and then spencer mcbride looks at more of a founder joseph smith presidential candidacy of 1844 that ended in his assassination. and later activist tamika malory offers her thoughts on racial justice predicted by more information about tb.org or consult your program guide. and now here is patricia sullivan on robert kennedy in the civil rights movement. >> i am jonathan price director of the presidential library museum. on behalf of all of my library and foundation colleagues and delighted to welcome all of

you who are watching tonight's program online. thank you for joining us this evening. i like to acknowledge the generous support of her underwriters the kennedy form lead sponsors bank of america the institute and at&t. intermediate sponsors the boston globe kennedy library education, public program on civil rights and social justice are supported in part. with fortune robust question answer. this evening for submitting your questions via e-mail or comments on our youtube page during the program produced so grateful to have this timely opportunity to explore robert f kennedy's work and legacy third established guest this evening. i'm delighted to interest tonight speaker, pleased to extend a warm virtual welcome back to the library to patricia sullivan.

the professor of history at the university of south carolina. she is the author and editor of books including lift every voice, the naacp and the making of the civil rights movement. days of hope, waste and democracy in a new deal era and freedom writer, virginia foster derm letters in the civil rights movement. her new book is a justice rising, robert kennedy's american black and white. i'm also so pleased to welcome back our moderator for this evening's discussion, kenneth mack is the inaugural professor of law and affiliate professor at harvard university. his research and teaching have focused on american legal and constitutional history with a particular emphasis on race relations, pulsate economic life is the author representing the creation of the civil rights and coeditor

of the new black, what has changed and what has not. welcome back to both of you. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thank you alan. it is a pleasure to be here with my old friend patricia sullivan to talk about her amazing book, justice rising robert kennedy's american black and white. so just for the viewers professor sullivan and i are going to have that conversation until about 7:00 p.m. director just mentioned you can submit questions. this should be instructions on the screen. around 7:00 o'clock or so we will transition over too q&a. so let's get started.

pat i would like to start with the origins of this book. a book about bobby kennedy civil rights. most have been historic civil rights movements written about grassroots were mostly overlooked, individuals in houston southern writer and activist like the naacp, so maybe a bit of an unusual topic that may be what you had before what drew you to write a book about somebody's who's when you hope to accomplish what he started this project? >> think it's great to be with you virtually unknown to thank everybody for organizing this event. the better question i used to write playbooks about bobby

kennedy where the furthers thing from my mind. that odd. distort covering generations for justice and civil rights. my last look on naacp, which banned up to about 1960, really opens up the national framework of social address and civil rights. it was an amazing project to work on. and showed the dynamic across several generations to realize the constitutional guarantee in the 14th and 15th amendments. the other ways in which citizenship intersected with

national and world war ii. and her black migration in the decades is re- shaping the united states. in northern and western cities. so, by the time you get to the end of it this really accelerates itself the of the cities in 1960. i want to take a fresh look at the 1960s. struggles around the country. we tend to look at the south and the urban issues after 1964. insert started leaving, wrote a book proposal and robert kennedy would pop up in different situations.

as a literary agent he mentioned bobby kennedy right a book about him. i do not plan to write a book about him. but i realize as i read were deeply look at robert kennedy through the context of the racial transformations in the 1960s. that would allow me too explore, to really disrupt it we think we know. look at the larger context of racial change get to know about him this aspect of his public life was very essential i think had been largely overlooked. i sort of came into it and it has been an amazing journey. i have learned quite a bit. and on.

the snapshots of the 60s that's used with bobby kennedy. with kennedy himself he is an iconic figure people have written about him arthur's lesson jurors famous book other people have written about him and his brother. what were the prevailing views but remain to be said about that? great question the prevailing views were he doesn't seem as central. people thought he did not do enough, he was not integrated

into the context of african-american struggle. and also urban areas that become early 50s and 60s they amount. he really was on the margins on the civil rights movements. as i tell my students, what you find in the past is dependent upon the questions you ask. i was asking different kinds of questions. as you mentioned, it is classic. number of other biographies i learned a lot from. but can they looked in a different kind of context. now that the book is done i'm kind of surprised but all the

sort of missed, what i missed and i've been working. but as you grassroots is a different dimension. it really is a fresh take and surprisingly. >> this is a book about adjournments america's journey through the 1960s comments bobby kennedy's journey through the 1960s. so i just wanted you to tell the leader a little bit about what it is like. where does bobby kennedy and begin at the beginning of the story? what is an evolving word is a story end up? what you learned from this journey? >> i will try to keep this brief.

when a started out, i realized i really did not know how the book would turn out. i realize he was significant in ways. and i knew certain aspects of what he did and how he was engaged as an attorney general is a part of his advisor and presidential candidate. they highlighted the richness of what i was exploring. so i realize he was a major force. as a similar movement created a demand. in the sit ins 1960s. when i found not only did they respond to the name which was urgent, but they responded to the opportunity created.

the question is what prepared robert kennedy to see and to act in the way that really broke away from traditional politics. the kennedy library my home for so much of this. and so i did some background research up to 1960. there were characteristics about him, he was compassionate he had it questioning spirit. there are things about him that had him open and he told the truth. so by the time we get, the point is early on which was really interesting to me he was the head of the legal form in 1951 the third-year law student come he invited ralph

to come speak. he just won a nobel peace prize. the political scientists, just remarkable human being. the meeting was not odd. the law in virginia said those meetings had desegregated. he thought that was ridiculous. heat we just fought world war ii he was aware of the court decisions of the naacp in higher education so he pushed coming tech to students, faculty and the president and they agreed for malik until it is meeting of that had gone public on campus. 1500 people came. that was not an epiphany. he went on and married open

the world. in the 50s or interesting a write up about my my book what's happening in the african-american struggle, malcolm x, baldwin, so things are heating up. kennedy's moving in a parallel. white bugler moving in parallel. 1960 campaign as a pivot point. [inaudible] ignites mass protests against the south. they raced into the cold war, apathy, and 1960 was a black migration the black vote in the north. they had the importance of trying to figure out how to get the black vote, hold on to the south, get elected as the

same the country in turmoil in a positive way. and all the energy coming from it. i will try to speed up we get to 1960. i guess looking at when he comes into 1960 there is evidence of him looking at conditions in urban areas. he wants to win but by the time he becomes attorney general in 1961 he is ready. he is ready to see. to see the complexity and the depth of the problem but he is oriented toward race and discrimination as a major crisis facing the country domestically. on then as attorney general he responds. the justice department they

beat that's the wrong word, hires really at lawyers quadruples in the division they are ready to respond to its happening in the south. macy help topics going to be, like today, governors local officials defined the law, condoning mob violence. by 1961 he said after the freedom ride talking about the governor on other public officials. it is not an easy road. maybe i should stop there. as it goes on may mention one thing. this sets me on my course throughout the book. in the spring of 1961 there's a meeting in new york he walks up to east harlem is a private

not publicize meeting, starting to look at the problems of juvenile delinquency played none of this is an identity for young people but the problems of young people living in poverty and how to respond to that. he begins organizing some community programs to provide recreation job-training and the rest. if you said the south and that movement very much what urban areas are alike because by applicant several decades. people are also bringing that out. long answer. >> this is great.

as a matter fact on a pickup on tamika just said. you said fairly early on in 1961, kennedy is thinking about what we might call entrenched racial inequality, thinking about racial problems in the north. this book, justice rising appearing in this moment we are in there is this large debate in the u.s. and across the world about things like how entrenched is racial inequality? which we do about it? the perspectives of people of color the african americans in the struggle against it. should black people be the center of the struggle should be interracial? you are describing kennedy being at the center of the moment but a different moment.

i want to start the story, instruct the book with this famous reading with a kennedy and a number of african-american figures. famously james baldwin, hansbrough, bunch of other people in new york. so described that meeting for our listeners. what happened? what did kennedy learn from it? why did you choose that is the opening thing to frame the book? >> guest: that was one of the incidents, the meeting occurs in may of 1963. may 24 i think. that month the birmingham crisis on purpose across the country and people saw turning dogs and fire hoses.

things are fever pitch. the candid ministration began immediately working the brief epic to get through it in the heat of this getting ready for a short note george wallace. intense short. and gregory had recommended the marshall the attorney general baldwin and robert kennedy meet. until they had met at the white house reception he embodiment, they talked and said we should talk again. things move on so it's about a year later. they tried have this meeting the next day new york. he just called people. his recollection, kennedy is

someone who is weak. like most politicians baldwin had interacted with. i'm to see things were in the north. kennedy went to the meeting thinking he'll get some insight into how to deal with the problems in the urban wars. it was known as irrigation as entrenched segregation and all. until he goes to the meeting coming his intention is to let them know, they political challenge and they were real. sort of like today. and so people gather.

there is talk. one of the people came to that meeting the 23-year-old have been beaten, gone through horrible, this is 63 cellmate frontline is in new jersey with a broken jaw injuries he had endured. clark starts to give statistics and things are rolling along. and then he just crossed kennedy out. you haven't done enough. kennedy looked to the others thinking you never know. he is a person you should live listen to. he is the one that comes from the battle.

it is a communication gap. they really bore the whole thing. they tried to answer and everybody got in for there's nothing, i put together some recollections people had in their meeting. after a while kennedy was wearing and said to him baldwin describes this when white and black come together. she said if you don't get it we are in trouble. because you and your brother are the best america has to

offer. it was quite a statement. when kennedy sat there for three hours and then said okay and the people leave. and there he is. and everybody was shook up by the meeting. it's a very verbal encounter. that happened then and people say that kennedy. mike 1963 he knew things were awful. he knew all of that, right? but just startled him. he was emotionally but the one thing that came through there is a point than on.

but then after words within a couple of days said that work i felt like i would feel that way. he heard them. to me that captures the intentional moment and what to do, how to fix it. entrenching inside what you do? and i think what you see think they understood what the movement had done across the board. push the issues forward. they knew and main point of their job was to talk to white people right? to talk to the majority in the country. after the meeting somebody

said was a little shook up, yes of course. you do have a problem with white people. the white people denying black people rights. it is a dramatic meeting that is a snapshot of that moment. but two days later the challenge of integrating the university of alabama. so what do you think in terms of how i approach that meeting? at the end of the book was that kennedy library of how he looked back at the moment they were not happy and he represented, he is the

attorney general of the united states represented a failure. so in an abstract way. personally people have relationships, others new it was not personal as bobby kennedy. it was tired of having to having to thread the needle on white political. but of course those are the realities that they have to deal with in the legislation. >> it's interesting. is it read the book is saying it does resonate with today the bobby kennedy is being educated by black people, he and his brother are racial liberals.

they are on that side of the political spectrum. but white people and black people don't really need. they don't talk frankly. it's a pretty frightening exchange. maybe one he did not expect to have. >> i think for sure pray think it point you make is important for listeners and what the country was like and told the ignorance, no interaction, no contact. there is something to be mindful of. and your point about yes, they saw the black movement for change. but they also sought and understood the inpatients. again sought young people

living under these horrible conditions, no access to education, no job, there is no way out he understood that first of all the inhumanity of that. and it's explosive. people do not have a way out. how to deal with that and he is only in washington d.c. and began to work in a personal way trying 2ingage these communities. that culminates a bit into the project in 1966. but it really shows okay, it is bad. how do you grab hold? how do you begin to address it? but your point is an essential one for the black movement finally had forced this into the center of national attention. we tried to respond in the way both jfk and bobby kennedy,

the understood history. they understood history. and continue 2ingage history in the moment. a crisis 100 years in the making looking back through reconstruction and the betrayal of reconstruction, they saw that. and they realize the cumulative impact of time in creating the situation. >> i'm interested you said earlier and that critiques of kennedy and one of which he and his brother did not do enough. this is a book dedicated to realistically engaging what they were able to do and not able to do. but with bobby kennedy i think of several phases of his

career, i may describe this in accurately. it's a public figure he helps run his brothers campaign, at a very pivotal moment for the civil rights movement and the d.o.j. the department of justice is doing a number of things which each document in the book. : : : >> so what did he do, right? doj, senator running for president, what are the main things that we can say that kennedy accomplished for raising

civil rights? >> what he did is what he created the opportunity to do. what did he do in the justice department, building that team, marshall, dohr, they created civil rights lawyers going into the deep south to litigate voting rights cases. getting to know, working with people like bob moses and getting to see up close, so, you know, he created that, and i think, you know, i think the justice department, and again, i don't think it's been fully explored to look at exactly what they did, what they were up

against, you know, how they moved, in 1962, they introduced the voting rights bill; right? they knew it had very little chance but he said we have to do something. great testimony where bobby kennedy goes up against, back and forth, back and forth, this would have been important addition -- [inaudible]. that was a major way that they used -- [inaudible]. what do we tell the people? i will pivot from that to the bill, that moment when all hell is breaking loose everywhere, in

response, you know, maybe the country, we'll be able to get pressure, but what he and his brother do is they begin to lookby, bring groups to the white house, religious groups, women's groups, to get people engaged in supporting civil rights legislation. they said it is unlikely we can get a strong bill through, right? but we have to try. they also said if people think a law is going to make this problem go away, they are out of their minds. so just that alone, but, you know, that's two and a half years that president kennedy is in the white house. but by the spring of 63, they are writing major civil rights legislation. they're mobilizing public support and they are figuring out a strategy for getting it through, bipartisan, bringing republicans along.

by the time john kennedy goes to dallas on november 20th, that bill is on its way, and that basically is the bill that -- [inaudible]. so right there, you know, that's huge. and that is not -- i mean, there's several good books on civil rights act of 1964 that really document this, but if you put it in the context of -- and then let me -- other things, d.c., that was his city, right? you saw again, same thing in the district of columbia, other cities, what's happening to young people, bad schools, no opportunities. the dunbar pool is closed, closed for nine years, a winning swimming team. he said what is this? they can't get the money because senators control the budget of d.c. he raised the money to have the

pool restored. he organized a job program for high school kids to get jobs in government and in private sector, summer jobs. he's doing things on a micro level too. he was committed to what was -- i mean, what was happening to those children, the schools were closed for five years. 1700 african americans roughly were out of school, no public schools. that was a cause that both he and the president were committed to. at one point, president kennedy said, whatever, just do something. they created the preschool as they are litigating the case to force the county. they create a free public school, raise the money, and it opens ironically it opens in september of 1963. the day after the birmingham church is bombed. this is a really explosive

period, but if people have that opinion -- you know, i think people who say that haven't done the work of looking. instead of a got ya, you know, really, the history is complex and rich, so -- and then i should have started with the senate, but the time he became the senator, he focused his attention on the urban -- what was happening in cities. he was the one person after august of 1965, and the push of law and order and more policing became the cry across the political spectrum, robert kennedy said how can you expect to obey the law when the law is used against them? not just policing. it is landlords that cheat them, merchants -- so he had an understanding, and he spoke it, and he really pushed to address

those conditions in urban areas to get the support, the government involvement, private and working directly with communities to begin to -- to begin to repair just the damage of the decades of segregation, poverty, poor schools and the rest. so i think, you know, there's no quick answer to that. you really have to move through the period. and also understand what's going on, understand the political challenges, understand the many ways, you know, not just one thing, but the many different ways he and the people he worked with, worked with him, and president kennedy. i know i'm talking about robert kennedy, but in my book i spend a good bit of time on president kennedy. he understood what the issue was. i mean, the interview with thurgood marshall, met with him in april of 1960, but again, you have to find the openings, and in two and a half years, they

achieved quite a bit, if you look at it in the context of the period and, you know, sort of what was done and what was attempted and have the influence, lobbying for the civil rights bill, and all the rest, it was not grandstanding, it was doing the tough work. >> yeah. i hear you saying that -- i'm picking up on our previous discussion that kennedy's being educated by being exposed to the problems of african americans in the south and the north. he's doing things, like, trying to protect black voting rights in the south which of course is where we kind of thought that battle was won, but we're back in middle of it again; right? these are kind of the next stage

of the movement through his encounters with black people, things like pushing for the civil rights bill when the democratic party is still the party of the solid south, the party of the southern segregationists and later in his career trying to think about things like d.c., problems with urban youth, things are sort of cutting edge and also being, you know, wouldn't want to exaggerate too much, but there's been a critique of the kind of late 60s liberals, you know, a historian, you've mentioned her in your quote, that there was this consensus around crime and that that was the main public policies to be directed at urban problems. that's the roots of mass incarceration. you're saying not to say that kennedy was wholly apart from

that, but he had been on the other side. >> i would argue he was apart from that. to him the most important thing was the conditions in these urban areas. he understood why people were rebelling; right? and he said if you -- that is not the solution. in fact, that aggravates the problem. there's more violence. so when i think of that book, i feel like this book sort of ends where she picks up. everything she describes happened. voices like kennedy and martin luther king, all the programs

that can help people in these communities help themselves, and fix the schools and create jobs and all that, so i think, you know, i wouldn't -- i don't think -- i think it is a different take. i think his analysis of the situation was correct; right? the analysis of the moynihans and the people who -- and lyndon johnson who were really for this law and order issue, a crime issue, but they didn't do anything. i think he had a different analysis, which is important, and he's not the only one. i mean there are many people who saw things that way, but he's sort of unique as a public political figure.

he supported the writer's workshop, to support the cultural developments. he's just one person. but he's i think a force for pushing things in that direction and the pull in the other direction, which elizabeth hintton's book really documents in great detail where we move from the 60s forward -- as you point out, we're back today with the similar questions that we had during this period. >> i'm interested in differences, if any, between bobby kennedy and his brother john. now, of course president kennedy, is tragically assassinated in 1963, there's always the what if. we don't actually have him being exposed -- president kennedy being exposed to the post 1963

developments, but, you know, part of what you are saying is that kennedy is seeing things, as early as 1961, seeing urban problems, maybe a lot of other white liberal public figures aren't quite seeing yet. do you get the sense that bobby is different than john with his ability to see the problem, or maybe we just don't have enough evidence because kennedy is assassinated, we don't know how he would have evolved. >> i think president kennedy -- i think john kennedy, i mean, if you read -- as marshall said, he understood. thurgood marshall met with him. again, this was in the library, which was revealing, that john f. kennedy asked thurgood marshall to meet with him in his

senate office, he was a candidate then. they went to lunch, all afternoon. he understood everything. what marshall said, he wants to change things. there are great quotes in the book, that he got it, that he supported equality, citizenship, full rights, and that he wouldn't be the normal typical politician, and it was when he pushes for the civil rights act, he said this is like war. our country is at stake. they also saw the way this issue was being manipulated by politicians to exacerbate white racial fears and resentiments -- resentments, but no, in parts of the book, i think president kennedy, i think he understood it. that speech he gave in hawaii on

june 10th, right before he gave his big speech, which again defines the problem as a national problem. our cities are on fire, you know. police oppression will not fix this. we have got to be who we say we are and end discrimination and provide for full rights. i think that's a great question. you know, i don't have the final answer on it, but i think they were closer together than people thought. they had different personalities, different ways of enga engaging. i think robert kennedy felt this intensely, compassionate, passionate, and he really gave it his all, in ways that were unique to him. >> this is interesting right? the standard criticism of the

kennedy -- particularly president kennedy, that he didn't do enough, that he was too beholden in the southerners, particularly in the senate, the white senators who wanted segregation, that he had, you know -- [inaudible] with a stroke of a pen. after he's elected, americans sending him pens, okay, you haven't issued an executive order. why that misconception? why -- >> i think that's a very good question to put to our colleagues, historians, because it's incorrect. i would argue that. 1962, their effort to get a

civil rights bill in may of 62 and how it's played out, but the reality, the power of southern democrats, you can only do what you can do, and it's not -- you know, as he moved towards 63, his closest advisors told him not to give a speech on civil rights because they thought it would jeopardize his reaex in 1964. -- reelection in 1964, and it could have; right? no, i'm doing it. and the only two people who thought he should do it was his brother and him. but the point is he was willing to put his political future on the line. i think he had the confidence. i mean he was a charismatic leader. he was smart. and i think they had a sort of faith in this country. i don't think he thought he would lose if he did it, but it

would be tough for southern democrats. democrats traditionally needed the south to win. i think, you know, we shouldn't be judging -- i mean to say that i think without digging in and doing the work and contextualizing it as a political figure, what you can do is -- falling on your sword doesn't move anything forward. you may be a hero, in some quarters, but it doesn't -- how do you make change? again, we're looking at that today. it is very tough to think about the challenges president biden faces. you know, how do you navigate this in that sphere? there are other places, state and local level, many ways that people can begin to -- or continue. but depending on your position as an elected official, you know, you have to -- it is not about winning, but it is just about accomplishing something. i think with the kennedies by 63, it was about accomplishing

something. and the country was going -- i mean, the late 60s shows this where things were moving, and they saw it, you know, by 62, 63, certainly by 63. are you convinced yet? [laughter] >> [inaudible]. >> you know, the thing is i'm not trying to like put them up -- they moved in their time, and they connected with forces that were moving the country, challenging the country, moving us forward. so it's not that -- you know, and that's i think what's significant, not the great leader. it is how do you function, and they knew -- there are so many

ways we have to face this and move to change, people's attitudes, local, state. i have a much better appreciation of that. i'm one of those historians that you are describing. you know, i wasn't interested. i thought i knew. it didn't matter. so again, it's the context and looking at the history in a fuller measure, i think, for that period. >> before we get to questions, i want to maybe talk about one other thing that's in your book, and we mentioned it briefly earlier in the conversation. near the end of the book, you talk about several corporations -- i can't remember the names of all of them. >> uh-huh. >> i would like you to talk about it, what was it supposed to do, how kennedy facilitated

it. what's interesting about it, it becomes this sign of struggle, who is going to control the thing. >> uh-huh. >> eventually frank thomas winds up being in charge of it. but can you kind of narrate that story and how kennedy becomes involved, and also how kennedy helps resolve the tension about who is going to run it? >> okay. yeah, i mean, yeah, again, it is another example -- i mean the war on poverty is shrinking; right? the cities are -- [inaudible]. he's a senator from new york, and he really wanted to do something. he said, you know, people like me have got to -- not just make speeches. we have to act. in february of 66, i think, he

talks to local leaders, sees the conditions and decides that, you know, they are going to try to develop a project here. and, you know, robert kennedy had a real talent for attracting and hiring really smart committed people. and he had two younger aides, peter edelman and adam walensky who were young, very bright, energetic, in line with what kennedy was concerned about. oh, and tom johnston was very important, run kennedy's new york office. they talked with all kinds of people working in cities. and they developed this redevelopment corporation, which was -- and they also managed to

get some funding put in that could help. joe clark from pennsylvania. anyhow, basically it's just that there's not enough government money to do what needs to be done. they developed a project with two entities. one is the community, community board, representing the interests and the concerns of the community, what could be done. it was looking at everything, housing, education, a number of projects that would be developed over time, to redevelop the community. and then one of his aides -- what about getting a board of corporate people to help raise money, right, and to provide some advice, and so -- and robert kennedy was not like

business people. you know, he appealed to a number of people, offered tremendous support. the names are flying out of my head right now. impressive group of people involved in business and finance. that was set up. i think for these businessmen, they saw what was happening. and their interest was i think motivated by that as well. i mean, something had to be done basically, and kennedy really emphasized that. they were advising. the community was developing the projects. there was tension in the beginning as you said. who is going to be in charge of the community? there were those who had been helping forever, helped senator kennedy, but then there were other people. so that kind of blew up. and then when things finally got -- and franklin thomas, i mean kennedy had met him, earl

graves, an aide to robert kennedy knew, he brought franklin thomas in, and he agreed to head the community part. he didn't like the fact that there was this business group, and they seemed to be pulling more -- [inaudible]. so that got a little testy. as it worked out, thomas pushed ahead, and he really -- they were going to homes, getting people jobs, finding out what the community wanted, really grass roots kind of stuff to make a plan. and eventually kennedy found out john dohr was leaving the justice department, and he brought john dohr to work on the side of the service corporation, which was the business. it was john dohr's movement --

so it evolved. let's just say that, it evolved. it became a model. martin luther king pointed to it as a model of a project that was run by the community. and to large extent it was. that wasn't even a question. again, they needed to raise the money and get the support. there's a book on a project which i cite a number of times, but that is certainly worth looking at. but again, it wasn't perfect, but it was an initiative that -- and was very well received in new york. king pointed to it as a model.

i mean, just finding other ways as the war on poverty is drying up, and the funds are drying up. local people, community people needed to be involved in determining what they needed. >> okay, great. we're going to start questions in a few minutes. i need to ask the what if question. bobby kennedy is the great what if in the 1960s. as you say in your book, his advisors advise him against giving civil rights speeches in places like indiana. they had a lot of white working

class voters, some voters in the south, but that's kind of limited. the great what if of bobby kennedy is he's the person that could have kept the coalition intact, with his ability to speak out on civil rights, to garner from some white working class people. for people who are optimistic about bobby -- he had that potential. >> uh-huh. >> i'm interested in your thinking, speculation about this what if question. are those people optimistic about bobby in that regard? is their optimism misplaced? we don't have enough evidence? what's your take about the great what if with bobby kennedy?

>> i think it's highly likely that he would have been nominated. if he had become president -- i don't know about -- [inaudible]. that's passe. needed something new. but i think he inspired people to public service, you know, young people, and he also, you know, brought tremendous -- attracted tremendous talent who were committed the way he was. i think back in the 60s, you know, with the civil rights movement, young people, civic activism, it really attracted a lot of people who wanted to be part of the solution. he would have had that power if he had become president. he would have built an administration that would have been, you know, amazing. again, you don't want to minimize the challenges.

but it would have given -- someone said to me once, the difference between, you know, what if, you know, kennedy and nixon. it is like hoover and roosevelt. imagine if hoover was elected in 1932. kennedy had the flair in terms of creative, energetic, confident, and -- robert kennedy would have attracted people and they would have been there in the late 60s ready to go, you know. i think there's a lot that had to change about american politics and public life in the 1960s, and i think his capacity and his ability to bring people in and delegate, you know, was just something that could have made a huge difference at that moment compared to when you think about how things turned.

again, the country we talked about was entrenched with racism and hinton shows us what's coming, so the problems would have been huge, and there's no telling, but it would have been certainly different and yeah, it would have been i think what he had hoped was to move our public life and our democracy in a new direction. who knows what that would have brought, but it certainly would have been interesting to see. >> okay, great. that's a great segue to questions. last thing about that what if question. one of these people that you described who would have been too young to have joined the administration but was certainly inspired by bobby kennedy was david axelrod, obama's campaign manager of course. axelrod talked about bobby

kennedy being the inspirational figure. when he saw obama, the thing he recalled was how bobby kennedy inspired people. you're certainly right about his ability to inspire young and creative people. >> uh-huh, yep. >> okay. questions. i'm going to, you know, kind of jump around on the questions. >> uh-huh. >> there's a question about kennedy's efforts outside of the south. we talked a little around that. but i'm going to ask a question that, you know, you've thought about before, and i'm just going to read the question. how do you reconcile robert kennedy's work done on behalf of senator mccarthy's -- [inaudible]. -- the work he did later to support civil rights? >> that's a great question and one i had when i started the

book. the answer is that robert kennedy joined that committee, what was that in 53, i guess. first of all, he and [inaudible] hated each other. okay? robert kennedy's job on that committee was to investigate allies trading with what was then known as communist china. he was not peppering questions with mccarthy. he was doing a study of who was trading with -- and he found out. it was his work got praised by the washington post. this is a really good thing to come out of this committee. this is important information.

but by the time he was there six months, robert kennedy quit. before he quit, they almost had a fistfight after one hearing when -- one of the mccarthy hearings. yeah, that's right. so he quit. then he was hired by the democrats. he worked with mccarthy, he was working on the republican side. he is hired by the democrats, and he came in right before the mccarthy hearings began, and he challenged cohen on a number of things and then robert kennedy was the one who wrote the report that censured. he had a personal relationship with mccarthy. his work on the committee was not digging out communists and that sort of thing. years later, he did feel there

was a domestic threat. a lot of people felt that back in the 50s, but in early 60s, peter moss, a journalist, you know, some people never forgave robert kennedy for having anything to do with joe mccarthy. his friends would ask him how did this happen. he said to peter moss, well, i thought there was a threat, and i was wrong, you know. i was wrong, you know, so it really is a headline grabber, because people kind of gravitate to that, but my sense is he did not -- while he was working for the committee, he went to meet the former head of the communist party to find out more about the communist party, you know, curiosity, questions. so i think that it's more complicated than it's perceived looking back. >> here's an open ended question, and i'm just going -- the question is, did he, robert kennedy, ever feel like he did

enough? i guess i'm going to phrase this as we always worry about whether we're doing enough. how did you get a sense of how he felt about the work he was doing? did he feel like he was doing enough? that he should be doing more? was he disappointed in what he accomplished? >> he strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't waste time thinking like that. he had passion, energy, and patience. you know, he understood, he said you solve one problem, there are 12 more, and they are more complex than the one before. i mean, keep moving, keep learning, keep looking. you know, one civil rights activist said about robert kennedy, he went, he saw, he listened, he grew. that describes him. hand wringing and did i do enough, did he make mistakes, did he think about that, course correction or whatever.

i think he understood human nature. he wasn't self-absorbed. he was engaged in the life of the country, the work of the country at a time when the urgency was great. running for president, to me it was interesting to see how he -- what brought him to that decision because you have to weigh things and you don't know. it's really interesting to get inside of that. you know, there's no clear path, and robert kennedy understood that. there was no clear path. but you had to keep trying, keep moving, learning, growing, and he did that. >> here's another question: can you discuss rfk's role in the ole miss crisis and how that affected him? also his visit to the mississippi delta was another turning point in his life and understanding. >> that's a great question, both

parts. ole miss, the ole miss crisis was huge. that was the biggest domestic crisis the kennedy administration faced. they're dealing with a rogue governor. they have a supreme court ruling that james meredith be admitted to the university of mississippi. they had what burke marshall called a potential insurgency, interesting word, on their hands. all hell could break loose if this governor did not do his job. so the buildup to that was just this dance, you know, to try to -- then he said he would, and then he didn't, and there was a full-scale riot, on the campus of ole miss. meredith was protected. the only -- marshalls could shoot to kill only if meredith was threatened.

two people were shot and killed. and then they called up the army and the army got delayed. robert kennedy said it was the worst night of my life. i mean, he and the president and their aides were sitting in the white house, passing back, calling in from a pay phone -- this is way before cell phones -- and it was just awful, and after it was over, someone asked him what his brother had learned. i really thought this was interesting -- from the crisis. and he said my brother learned never to believe a book on reconstruction again, the old school interpretation, the poor south, the federal government, it brought it to life. the trip to the delta, oh, but let me add one other thing because kathleen kennedy told me about this film about when robert kennedy went back in 1966, to -- he was invited by the law students to come back to

ole miss. he's like what is this? what is going to happen when i go back there? this is just four years later. they really wanted him. and so he went, and ethel kennedy went with him. i mean, they had some protection, but i mean really people in that state still hated him, but the law students wanted him. and he went, and i mean, there was the whole -- the film is great. the background and how he got there and the students. and he gave a wonderful speech there and got a standing ovation with 6,000 students in that auditorium. so that was the ole miss. the delta trip in 1967, they would hold hearings to investigate war on poverty programs, what was happening, and one of them -- the hearings were in jackson. there's a great picture in a book testifying and robert kennedy, you know, listening.

he heard about the poverty, the historic project, and just -- he wanted to see. again, he wanted to see. so he and another senator went with marion wright and peter edelman. marion wright came and testified in washington. it was -- he had never seen poverty like he saw there, as bad as it was in so many cities. and he went back immediately and pushed to get more federal aid, but it had a huge impact on him. it horrified him. just, you know, it kept him going, but he wanted the country to see. they had hearings and brought people to washington to try to put a spotlight on this and to really push for the federal government to, you know, expand

antipoverty programs around the country. great question. >> here's another one. this question asks about a 1968 late night meeting in west oakland. okay. 1968, late night meeting in west oakland bookended the 1963 baldwin meeting, i guess the one you discussed before. discuss how rfk's approach had changed, why he went and how he tried to translate the session into action. i guess the questioner also wants to ask didn't the open meeting also garner the get out the vote support for the black community for the primary? >> it certainly helped. that's really a great observation about the other side of the baldwin meeting.

kennedy understood that, you know, people were angry, and [inaudible]; right? and part of it, california primary, he went to a church in oakland at 10:00 p.m., and he took raiford johnson with him and john glenn who had been campaigning with him, and john sedenthaler and off they go. he told them it is going to be rough but don't worry. he's telling his friends. he got up there, and it started. this is wrong. that is wrong. you need to do this. why don't you do that? and he answered and talked about -- and he responded. at one point raiford johnson wanted to get up, he was so angry. and he said no, this is between

them and me. and it went on. brown was the moderator. they finally brought it to a close. by the end, there was discussion. they went back to the hotel, and john glenn said well i don't think you got too many votes tonight. and willie brown said oh, no, they are going to turn out. i mean they are going to work. the next day tom berkeley, an african american newspaper publisher, people were calling him, wanting to help, and yes, people joined up and worked on the get out the vote campaign. and it was such -- and he went back to oakland the next day. he was supposed to go somewhere else and spoke to the community, and they had a big get out the vote rally. it was a great moment. he understood that you have to listen and be there and be

responsive, and of course, in the primary i think he got 96% of the african american vote in oakland, huge voter turnout. that's a good observation. >> it's interesting what i hear you saying, i forgot the way you phrased it earlier, that he came, he did this, and he listened. you know, it seemed like he is continually listening to people who were really willing to tell him in a very aggressive way that he reached some of those people, even though they didn't necessarily agree with everything -- of his particular approach. >> one thing about -- we were talking about liberals before, one of the people -- an african american activist said he's not one of the last liberals, he's the last of the great believable. i titled the chapter that, the

last of the great believable. >> can you expand on that? what does that mean? the last of the great believable? >> people trusted what he said. he didn't overpromise. he didn't make things up. he listened. he said what he thought. even baldwin said, different kind of political figure, so i think, yeah, truth telling is believable. and trusting that. >> here's another question. how much did jfk's assassination open a wound that allowed bobby to feel and see things differently by 1968 than he had prior to november 22nd, 1963? you know, maybe that's too speculative, i don't know. >> no, you know, when i wrote about president kennedy's assassination, i was 13, when he

was assassinated, and i remember like it was awful and terrible. but writing about it, you know, i experienced it in a different way. writing about robert kennedy, i talked to people who knew him then, john segenthaler and others, i mean it was devastating in ways that are indescribable, but how it impacted him, people say did he change, but people closest to him said no, his compassion. what his law professor said -- this is interesting, he said he took care of his brother.

they worked in tandem. and he said once he was gone, he said bobby became more and more himself. you know, he moved into his public life, and again, bringing the concerns that he had developed, so it's very interesting to think about that, but wound is what i -- i mean, it was just a deep loss, but with the notion that it didn't change him. he continued on and moved to put all his energy into the things he cared about. >> here's another question, back to the critical vein of questioning. the question goes like this, how should we look at kennedy's complicated relationship with

martin luther king, with wiretapping him, with following hoover's instructions against king? i think that question is asking about the fact that robert kennedy authorized the wiretaps of martin luther king. how should we think about that? >> you should read my book because i was concerned about that. very complicated. hoover's pressure, hoover's power, you know, they knew -- he knew that -- [inaudible]. hoover kept pressing, the whole levinson thing. i don't want to get too deeply into it, but the pressure to --

hoover's pressure on kennedy and the evidence he had -- martin luther king -- talking to levinson and all of this, finally in october of 63, he agreed to a temporary 30-day wiretap on king's phone in atlanta and new york. and if you read about it, so he did it. there are a couple of reasons that people speculate. hoover had things on the president, on his private life. and the civil rights bill, this is october. they're fighting to get the civil rights bill moved through the house judiciary committee. if hoover leaked to the press, as he often would do that -- [inaudible]. i'm speculating here, also

trying to keep that at bay, but again, president kennedy was killed a month later. president johnson came in -- or johnson became president. lyndon johnson was very close to j. edgar hoover and had different feelings on king. i hope the questioner will read about it in the book. i really gave this a lot of thought and read everything i could and sort of lay it out. it certainly doesn't diminish -- in fact, fast forward, robert kennedy and martin luther king become much more closely aligned as time goes forward. they're concerned about poverty. they're concerned about the war on vietnam. there's a wonderful scene in a hearing on conditions of the city, which kennedy was a part of, where he and king -- the conditions and what to do.

so that relationship grew, and they both were so closely -- i mean, what they saw as the problems and the solutions were very close and their opposition to the war in vietnam as well. it was interesting to see how that -- their relationship developed, after 64, 65. i mean it was never distant. -- it was distant, actually, but they were at odds, but they became much more closely aligned around the issues of poverty, the cities, and the war. >> okay. here's a long and thoughtful question. i'm going to read the whole thing. from the moment i read robert kennedy's work, he always seemed

like the brain to me, someone who could keep things in order and keep working, but a bit reluctant to take -- to be the image, i think maybe be the public figure, even after john's murder, robert continued with his duties a little longer, beyond the complicated relationship he had with lbj, what do you think was bobby's breaking point, the moment when he understood he had the strength and power to fight for the senate and then in the race for the presidency? >> that's a great question. through 64, he and his team were critical to getting the civil rights bill through. he caried that through, the completion of the work that he and his brother had begun. but by 1966 -- you know, 1966,

he campaigned in the midtermer if other candidates around the country, and the press see him as transformed, that he'd become a terrific public speaker, energetic, charismatic, i mean, i really -- well, i mean just fully engaged in the work of the politics, the senate, and the causes that he believed in. i think it took time. adam walensky noted the day that robert kennedy stopped wearing a black tie, and it was when they were in latin america -- when was that? it was a couple years after president kennedy was assassinated. so, you know, i think it was gradual, but always working, but coming into his own, i think certainly by 66, he had fully come into his own. >> okay.

all right. so here's a different kind of question, what role did robert kennedy's catholic faith play in his political life? >> i think -- i think his faith was formative. i mean, you know, it's hard -- i mean, he went to church on sundays, but it was more than that. i think he had a deep faith, and he was of the social justice -- yeah, i think it's hard to identify specifically. i have moments in the book where i look at that, but i think he was a deeply spiritual person, and he was -- i think his catholic faith was a formative force in his life, and i think, you know, how he moved forward and what he achieved, i think

that was an important part of his strength with other factors too. it is hard to single one out, but i think -- and, you know, he was not -- he was the kind of catholic who did not hesitate to challenge clergy, you know. he was his own person. i mean, he had that kind of faith that he was responsible for it, and, you know, he reflected the care for the poor, public service, living that kind of life. >> okay. so we've got actually three minutes. we have time for one last question. and i think this is an appropriate last question too. this question is asking about the title of your book. the question is, can professor sullivan comment on her selection of the title of the book "justice rising robert

kennedy's america in black and white". >> okay. robert kennedy's america in black and white describes the book because it is him moving through our country in that way. but justice rising is this convergence in this period of first of all, you know, the civil rights struggles, had been going on for decades, but the 1960s, it had broken in in a way that demanded national attention and action, and then it impacted -- again, it broke through the cold war political culture and really energized american engagement, particularly among young people, and you had the kennedy administration coming in and being in sync with that, so you know, all these different forces

that come together in the early 60s. justice is rising; right? it is not, you know -- and it has an impact that is difficult to measure. i mean, we can look at civil rights acts and all the rest, but we're sitting here talking about this today, and i think, you know, not everything was achieved. you had backlash at the end of the decade, but justice was raising in ways that were formative and historically significant, and i think had tremendous lessons. again, it was a convergence, and the kennedies were really a part of that, responded to it, and really helped to contribute to that kind of movement. >> okay. this is the book "justice rising, robert kennedy's america in black and white" by patricia

sullivan. amazing book. i read the whole thing. i recommend our listeners read it. as you said, pat, at various points, a lot of these are really complicated questions, and the book mobilizes all the evidence around them to sort out things about the wiretaps, so it is well worth reading. so thank you, professor patricia sullivan for coming to the kennedy library forum. thank you to the audience for coming and for your wonderful questions. and thank you to the kennedy library for inviting both of us to appear. >> yes, my thanks to all. thank you, ken, so much, and everybody. ::

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ you are watching book tv on c-span2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. book tv, television for serious readers. >> i am so pleased to have with us this evening, senator mcbride associate managing historian of the smith paper project author of tonight's book, joseph smith for president in conversation with him is the t harry williams professor of american history at lsu and