our panelists for ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and now on c-span2's booktv, more television for serious readers. >> i'm corrine bendersky from the ucla anderson school of

medicine. the future of work in anderson dean's series. today we're talking about the new work, pararah dice: succeeding from anywhere. i am pleased to introduce my colleague tsedal neeley. she will be discussing her fantastic new book, "remote work revolution: succeeding from enough." tsedals' work focuses on how leaders can scale organizations by developing and implementing global and digital strategies. we're excited to learn about the

are remote work revolution and organizations of the future. welcome, tsedal. >> i'm so happy to be with youd today. thank you for having me. >> thank you. to begin our discussioned today, your book provides workers and leaders with the best practices necessary to perform at the highest level within their organizations. our haart members are currently addressing multiple employee issues as a result of the unprecedented changes brought on by covid-19. the pandemic accelerated the transition to remote operations for many companies, migrating to virtual work in just weeks. this massive transition has forced many of our member companies to rapidly advance their digital footprint and evaluate how work will beson performed in theano future. while there are many advantages to remote work, organizations are also facing several new challenges including the impact on corporate culture, communication and employee experience and how work will be organized going forward. so to begin, tsedal, can you share some insights from your book about the key drivers impacting the workplace in this post-pandemic world, what strategies should lead arers have, and i personally am very curious about why you called it a revolution. the book

talks about the changes we have all experienced the last 13 months or more. sometimes even think about it it's been over a year since we have been working remotely and now trying to figure out how to work toward the future. i call it a revolution because our norms and the way in which we collaborate, the way in which we communicate, the way in which we achieve our work has shifted and not a little bit of a lot. i do think some of the changes brought last year will be permanent and those are the key drivers that you want to talk about. what i would like to do is take a few minutes to talk about how to think about the future of work and what many people are contemplating around this hybrid

modality of work. when people talk about hybrid work people do find it differently. i want is to have this common definition which just means the hybrid workplace has an except in person and remote workers at the same time so we are contemplating what that could look like for many organizations. the first thing that we want to do is to determine what works for one firm because there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all and to actually survey your entire workforce to determine preference and if your workplace is anything like most surveyed workplaces you will discover that 81 to 89% of employees want to retain some kind of hybrid work and i say 81 to 87%, 81

refers to an on line survey in march and 70% refers to a survey. all of the patterns and trends have been in this kind of region numerically speaking. of that number 25 to 30% want to have remote work permanently but we cannot forget the 10 to 15% who said we want nothing to do with remote work. we want to go back to the office and this is too much and if we look demographically at millenials for individuals who are struggling with working conditions so what do we do with these numbers? 68 to 70% of employers want

people back in person but they are finding very quickly because of the sheer scale of those who want to maintain some kind of virtual work in their arrangement is forcing the organizations to have to design policies. policies have to ensure we are reviewing the critical path for the work that we need to do really well and in making decisions not only by function but all organizations overall in terms of the level of validity we have. and a lot of tech companies they are saying you can work from anywhere any time and you don't have to ever come back to the office if you don't want to. some say well i have a vested

interest in selling their technology but that's not always true. twitter has said this in zillow has said this of their workforce they are much more experience with remote work which is why they are a lot more comfortable with that in fact the thing that i've been talking about so much lately is the fact that remote work is not new and hybrid work is not new. what is new is the sheer scale of how we are experiencing it and the fact that so many people left tasted what remote work can be like for them that they want to retain it. so some key important drivers i want to talk about one around the question of productivity. trust is really about connecting

with my collaborates as collaborators and having mutual trust with the people they are working with and you see they are enabling digital tools that allow us to be productive to have trust that allows us to be more productive. trusts being a key driver for success has been the most stunning element around virtuality and in fact there was a study dating back to 1993. if you think about productivity in some of the work around this in 1993 they allowed up to 90% of their employees to work remotely. of course they gave them the technology to enable this

including wi-fi access broadband access and tools to do this. they found that project is -- productivity actually increase. they maintain productivity which was up. microsoft system said whoa will try this two and a couple of years later microsystem has been acquired by oracle. they not only saw a major increase in productivity, they saw a major increase in job satisfaction in overtime so many people wanted to participate in it that they ended up in 10 years saving half a billion dollars. this is how well it worked. you may be thinking these are just tech companies. the u.s. patent office started

to participate in remote work working from anywhere. either you are working from home or you can work from anywhere and they started experimenting with this around 2018 and 2019. what they found was 4.4% of a productivity increase as well as job satisfaction that has gone up and in fact today they shut down their virginia operations and their real estate there. is this just an american thing? no, it's not. a chinese company has been experimenting with this along with a stanford economist and they spent nine months looking

at remote work by having some groups work remotely and other groups commute. at the end of the nine months productivity increased to the tune of 17% and people were given a choice whether they want to maintain it or not. this was the paranoid and the fear around will i be able to advance my career if i choose to maintain this remote work while others are going into the office and that became a concern for that group which is a question that we need to think about. those who are going into the office versus those who aren't are they going to be treated differently and the answer to that should be they should not and leaders and managers skill building will be important to

ensure that we are not feeding into fear of missing out and for managers to do better and to do more with those who are around them. we can talk below bit more about that. the second element, trust is connected to this a bit but i want to talk about trust because trust is so important and the second most to element in virtual. human beings for some reason if i had a colleague whom with i'm working closely with for a very long time and we have this amazing relationship and we've been co-located for a long time and it's awesome and suddenly i stay in building a and my close

colleague who i trust move to building b for whatever reason. that tiny physical separation erodes our trust in relationships. m.i.t. discovered this years ago around how proximity can create distance very quickly so we think about this virtual environment and we are not co-located so researchers practitioners and technology experts started to look at this a very long time ago to determine how do you even define trust and what type of trust is at? so enter what i write about in the book "remote work revolution" the trusting curve and in the trusting curve i portray the two types of trust that are really important to maintain in a remote environment.

the first one is called cognitive trust difficult to remember and very easy to implement. cognitive trust speaks to the understanding of two things that allow us to defer trust to others. if we stand determined that someone is dependable that is 100% knowable you can figure out if someone is dependable. you can ask in you can watch. if you can determine if someone is qualified or has the competence that we need, completely knowable, discernible than we should conferred this quick trust and start our collaboration efforts. study after study after study

has concluded how well trust works when we are not in the same space. you need the second type of trust that is called emotional trust. emotional trust is grounded in the belief that you care about me, you care about my interests, you care about my physical and if i know this we share emotional trust. emotional trust is more difficult to achieve but it's very achievable because the mechanism includes self-disclosure, yes that's right, self disclosure. sometimes i call a mature self-disclosure because there is such a thing as making people

uncomfortable with too much information but sharing of yourself around aspirations in your interesting concerns, who you are, increases people's likelihood of finding you approachable and likeable. imagine that. the more we share of ourselves the more people find this likeable and approachable in a virtual environment. there are ways to develop emotional trust by having empathy towards others but reflecting that empathy through our words and actions. managers must have emotional trust. so important and they must convey it. you have to trust this type of trust despite your virtuality and then you collaborate better. you are more satisfied with your job and you are more productive.

digital tools, the last thing i want to touch on and then we can take questions from the audience. digital tools are enablers that allow us to reengage one another and allow us to communicate with one another and it's so important that we understand that they are not just communication tools but we need to use them in a way that will facilitate our work world but help us with our connections and timing and other things. this is called zoom fatigue or tech exhaustion. tech exhaustion should not exist, should not exist because if we match our communication goals with our work goals that means we are not always -- we

are completely over indexing on those and we are not seeing them. what is important when it comes to digital? one is lean versus rich media. on the one and end you have the means and on the other hand you have -- means means google stock where you don't have emotionality and trust. context is not very clear. have you ever received an e-mail and you were like is this person matter in a rush? you don't know. so does our forms of media. we see body language and place in context. it's not that lean is bad in

rich is good. it's what do i need for this particular situation. that's how we need to think about lean versus rich. similarly the idea of synchronous versus asynchronous digital meaning alive, we are synchronous right now versus asynchronous which could be the use of social media where we are sending a message that is not synchronous. not every common occasion is appropriate or synchronous. some things are much better for in synchronous. for example if you want to process complex information you want to send some form of me and asynchronous digital tool.

you don't want to call a meeting to talk about -- so there are things like that are so important to keep in mind and i just want to say a couple more things about this and then we can shift gears. this is to pride -- provide the five features of technology that we need to take into account. one is delivery of speech. do i need people to get this information quickly or not? how many people in my meeting with here at? some emotionality will be necessary here or not. fine-tuning potential is the iterative work we need to do with people. that these to be part of how we think about digital tools.

finally message permanent which refers to the need to capture store and reuse this work events. if we do that we need to think about what tools to use. this matching when we are done doing this matching and the entire chapter in the book captures all of this. we will never experienced tech exhaustion because we have moved to using digital in a much more clever at way and in terms of what could be more essential. i will posit here and perhaps we can talk about anything that comes to mind. >> thank you. there are so many things that

were really intriguing. i'm really thinking about what you said with the more complex information the less useful the media. a lot of people think it's just the opposite. the richer the communication we need a rich communication platform to be able to process it and hash it out and discuss it together and what i'm hearing you say is you need time to absorb and process and think it through on their own and then follow up with an ending or are you saying there's never a time to have a face-to-face meeting? >> what a great question. evidence shows that you can start with the use of asynchronous so people can absorb the information.

there's a thing called productive redundancy which means you can have a conversation about it and if it's something complex and important it will be something that you will need to process over time. you write that we typically do multiple pairings of individual things to achieve our work but what i've been seeing in this past 13 months or so is that each of those things are visual and they shouldn't be. we have to mix it up. we have to mix it up and we need to have shorter conversations as well so we are building in the transition time between our correspondents. >> thank you. we have a lot of questions in the chat. it's a really interesting question about how the shift to remote work impacts people in

different social groups distinctly and specifically is there a gender difference and who prefers to stay working from home or an office? could you address those? >> i could in effect i'm so worried about some of the statistics coming out of the u.s. labor statistics where they have said 80 million women have left the workforce in the last year and another recent survey shows 570,000 women who have left the workforce are moms and women of color. the thing that is disappointing about that is if we could lean into the flex time or the flexibility or different ways of thinking about how we arrange

our work and how we segment the day we can accommodate many more people. as we think in traditional ways in terms of how we work even in a remote environment you can't accommodate a lot of these women who have become caretakers whether it's the elderly or their children. this is one group that has been very effective but what we do know is the smart companies that i'm talking who are doing things like allowing people to segment work for them which also means you work the same amount of hours but you work at different parts of the day. you need to make sure there's overlapping time for that collaboration work with your group but flex time is so

important to accommodate these different demands. we are in the middle of a global pandemic. static interesting to think about hybrid not just in terms of technology and location but also temporality scheduling wise. it's really great. absolutely and if i could say hybrid and with the remote work revolution in thinking differently about time and space which is what global organizations have been doing for decades and it's that same logic that now has come full force to very domestic work as well. >> thank you. a couple of interesting questions about management and performance evaluation you tried to combine them into one. one question here is what people

in management roles, the hybrid option and flexibility different than someone in a subordinate role and would you want them off-site or to have some on-site presence and related to that how do we measure productivity and performance without being overly intrusive? >> that is a great question. you need to think about performance differently in this environment and in fact i would love to just spend a moment thinking about this. you know this so well as i do with the work of the late sociologist great richard hackman who is the pioneer genius of all things related to groups.

management and non-management, you name it and the conclusion which applies so well to hybrid and to remote work is that the way to measure performance involves three things. the first one is results. are we seeing the type of output that we expect and this is observable as well. we are outcome driven. the second thing is we are not looking at what people are doing every day but we are looking at the cohesion of our unit and their group. are we operating as one unit which means their approach to collaboration has to be sophisticated. the third criteria is around individual job satisfaction and

growth. individual satisfaction and growth. it's rethinking how we think about performance and there are criteria and this is how we measure people. the question of should this be available to managers versus not? i actually believe just like the last 13 plus months they should be available to every single person provided their work and job roles can accommodate virtuality. you will have some essential on-site people by the sheer fact of what they do. it could be because of their customers or it could be because they manage a very complex i.t. infrastructure but you need to make sure that they can gain some of the collective product

to the increases that we have enjoyed. we need to find ways to reward those people so they don't think it's a luxury that others can haven't have and they don't. someone is rewarding them and saying you will get 10 to 15 days out of the year to do remote learning. you can use them as you wish so you are sharing in that way and that small gesture alone becomes a source of equity. and lastly should managers be more off-site so that they are not symbolically conveying preference to one mode of working or another? this is an interesting question that i think really is all about are these leaders strong leaders and do they stay connected to what they do whether they are

on-site or off-site and are they playing favoritism? people know right away. i think leaders need to up their leadership skills and show a lot of consistency. whether they are on-site or off-site destination shouldn't matter if they are strong leaders that people trust. >> building on that you said earlier in your presentation how important it is to maintain equity and promotional opportunity for workers who are remote compared to those who are largely on-site especially with the presumption being that managers are fully on-site in there for would have more interaction and you can build more of that emotional trust with those who are cold and --

located. what are some things you recommend in the hybrid work environments in terms of remote and inclusive in terms of people from different demographic groups who even an employee located situations can retain conclusion -- inclusion. this has provided for many organizations when you think about recruitment and hiring places they have never considered before. imagine if you could higher and excellent amazing talent and not worry where they are and in fact the advantage today is to be able to convey work flexibility.

you'll get a lot more potential and the pipeline problem we have been hearing about with women or people of color for example and it becomes, you're going to have more time to think about it. beyond the fact that it becomes so important that we revived feedback to everyone that we help people develop in their careers and their jobs and equip people. it's so important that we track who's being promoted because ultimately what you want is to have eight distributive workforce where front is paying attention and managers responsible for individuals to ensure that there is equity and

development with coaching time with feedback and with promotions and a career at trajectory. i think we are entering a kind of space that's going to be incredibly incredibly competitive and increasingly we are seeing people saying wait a minute not only can i hire people i can hire excellent. jars from europe to do this telehealth thing that we now know works. the competitive landscape is going to look different and so it's not a time for media leadership. in fact this is the time for extraordinary leadership which means our purchase have to be excellent. our managerial work has to be excellent and we need to think broadly because the world has changed. >> can you build on that a little and talk about what are

some of the key management leadership skills for example building excellent company culture when some are fully remote and don't have the cultural experience of being physically on site. >> virtual on boarding. the huge question and in fact i think i get this question every three days or so. why is that? because we want to make sure when we bring people in we find ways to put our company inside of people who may never be walking around our building and experiencing us. i want to also make sure we are defining what culture is means. culture means are shared by use

binnie was important to all of us and the other part of culture is what are our shared norms are behaviors and how do we make sure people can see and hear is so when you are on boarding virtually we need to think about that. those who are on boarding a center managers have two work in helping us understand the cultural and the way we do that is to tier people up. you can hiring cohorts even better and if you can't hiring cohorts that people who exemplify the culture do we want others to experience and have that to work without verse and meet with that ehrsam regularly. that's one thing we can do. >> are you talking about mentoring? >> yes.

like an onboarding and this is where you meet the heart of other people and spending time with them. the other thing is believe it or not swag, company swag. but companies should come to you. doesn't have to be a big deal. imagine sending people flags makes a difference. it shows you you are part of us. there are certain companies that do so well and it doesn't cost a lot. beyond that because we cannot walk around and develop -- which is so important when we enter a place we need to be invited for our managers have to give us a list of people to have virtual lunches with, to have virtual coffee breaks with so that we

are meeting and connecting with people in this kind of virtual environment. and then learning, learning with others is a very strong way to get our company involved in learning it to goodies and that can be excellent as well. i could go on and on but i think the important point here is virtual onboarding this happens differently than in person onboarding and there are many very well evidenced practices that people can employ to make sure that someone knew can quickly get assimilated into the company and i have to say this. giving people jobs, experiences when they are collaborative and new to the company is very

important. an individual contributor give them assignments especially at the beginning based on collaborating with other people. that is an magnificent way to onboard. >> that is billion. building on that we have a few questions about structuring time especially in hybrid environments. comment steven need to direct the policy to encourage their overlap and i want to read one question. is it recommended to set an early expectation or minimum amounts advocate for the majority of staff or is there a better approach or do you decide what makes the most sense? , it is flexibility -- how much flexibility for structuring and

having policies and procedures to organize how people distribute themselves through time and space to facilitate enable that flexibility and relationship building that you are talking about? >> one way to answer that question is to get inspiration on what you refer to in the last 12 or 13 months. ideally you want to trust people to self direct on their collaboration. you want to trust people to do that themselves and treat people like adults. i have never quoted hemingway more in my life by the way. ernest hemingway says the way to trust people in and the way to know that people are trustworthy is by trusting them. trust people to get it done and if you don't think they can get it done then intervene which leads me to the next point.

the policy whether it's to take paid how many times a week or monthly want to meet with people or whether you say you guys figure it out but there basic expectations on what you want to see happen all of that will change over time. when we set these policies it's so important to expect the expectation and the likelihood that they will change is -- as we learn more and we get ahold of the pandemic and we figure out what the next year or two will look like then chances are we will change our approach. i advise companies to look into these experiments were what we call phase 1 because you will have to tweak and adapt as you go.

>> setting that expectation up front is important. a question about the logistics. the feasibility of people moving their equipment rack and forth between their home office in the work office. you have any recommendations for sharing equipment between mott's poll environments? >> this is such an important question. some early data on this with companies that started the migration and the office, the top 30% of their workforce are people interested in going back to the office and a lot of them experiment and sometimes they say we want to start experimenting. some of the early findings are that people are finding that their office location or their space is actually the lesser

quality than what they have at home or remote conversations you share them talking about lighting and sound and other things. the office is proving to be inadequate compared to the stuff -- the setup that they have so organizations therefore the implication is that we need to create an design spaces at the office that accommodate our reality today whether it's making sure we have privacy or are ways to manage noise because the likelihood that people in the office will videoconference with others who are not in the same space is very very very high. even now we have people who are back not everyone is going to fit into that conference room

the way we did before the pandemic. even when someone is around to ensure that their safety and other things and the whole vexing question continues to be an interesting one. whether the company demands that are not there is so much to figure out there but the point is you are going to have people who will be sitting in her old spaces and wanting to have these videoconference calls and you have to get those places that we need to design better spaces and a hybrid environment once where all packets going to be really important the hotel spaces we. to accommodate the technologies of the day and allow people to just plug and play so we need to

invest in technology and we need to invest in digital tools and in some places with some jobs we have to replicate what that would look like. not just plug-and-play. >> this next question specifically refers to transferring of equipment. things taken from the office to the home office a year ago do we bring them back? do we replicate and how do we. the dual-modeality workspace reality but also not every company wants to or has the capacity to fully outfit each employee with two workspaces. >> it's not going to be needed. the fundamental question that i would ask to answer that question like any professor,

right? it is why are you going into the office collects what is the plan? for those who want to spend one or two days in the office or the organization says we want you here twice a week, for what reason? is it to bond more or to have more meetings with others? is it because people do the same market you would would do at home which is to meet is not a realistic picture so i think what is going to end up happening is we have to think about what we do in the office versus what we do at home. even the data that i mentioned earlier for them to go into the office everyone tells me oh gosh that mute i'm so glad i'm not doing it anymore. do the exact thing that you'd be doing at home. when you are at the office

presumably it's to work closely with others so how you allocate your work and it will determine the kind of equipment and design that you will have at the office. >> tsedal i know your world expert on multicultural -- and we have had conversations over the last year here on events about about the tax and legal infrastructure in the united states that facilitates and in many cases present obstacles to really implementing the employee can work from anywhere for any amount of time vision. there are restrictions for instance in terms of their people with tax code restrictions and terms of what happens if you are working out

of state for more than x number of months. share your thoughts about that and in particular the experiences from around the world and national companies that have been doing this preceding the pandemic india thought in terms of navigating that or the legal and taxation infrastructure and will it shift to enable fulfilling this vision >> i love that question except for the political one because i will not even get close to that. that is beyond me but here's the thing what many companies are encountering today is this very

question. people work in other places than here what is the compensation and what are they doing for taxes? what does it mean for us. what does that mean for the cost of coming back and forth and what this is doing is it's bringing the global work and global human resources and capital concerns into our spaces. some companies are saying you can work from anywhere but we are going to pay you what we pay you here. silicon valley dollars are not going to be in your bank account if you are all the way in x state employees are responding by saying well okay then i would just move two hours away and stay within the state. what is that going to do for my

conversation? i think it's going to be case-by-case and company by company. seeing the migration out of the headquartered area that people encounter but it's the global conversation and capital logic that people encounter. some have articulated this and some companies say no we are not going to pay you but these decisions have to be made and they are going to manifest i have no doubt in my mind. so long as this idea of working from anywhere to accommodate the human resource issues will have to be tackled as well. and that's okay.

>> we are in an exploration phase and trial and error and sharing best practices and i love the experience and bringing it into art domestic work places. we have just a few more minutes or their any additional questions? please put them in the chat space. you talk about digital tools. can you speak to any digital tools that you see coming on the horizon that are really critical to enabling the realization of this hybrid workplace in the future? >> it's really interesting because there are so many tools that people are creating. people will send me hey this is what we are doing and this is going to be great and i don't think it's going to change. rather than the plethora of things that will come on line

that we need to integrate into our world what we need to do is to really think about the city versus the newness or richness of media and incorporate those into our workplaces and they think the ones that you have chosen whether it's some form of internal social -- we can help people use those batters -- better learn how to maximize it there rather than bringing in new tools and i will say one more thing. and the last 13 months or so many companies that reported a lot of cybersecurity issues or breaches. that's because we have implemented all of these new tools which have weekend there've grandmother's a bit.

individuals have to really be trained to be thoughtful about not only the use of existing tools but also be very careful around security and keep everything secure. i think those should be our priorities today than to add more tools to our hybrid work places. i do believe though that what is right around the corner which is why my deepest hope is that we are courageous and moving to the kind of space where we just people where we can give people autonomy and where we can learn and create the future workforce that is so important because we are also going to see a digital revolution. rather than digital tools i can see us using data differently,

using machine learning and artificial intelligence ai agents. people worry about how much will i collaborate with sally when we could be collaborate with ai? let's learn how to think about digital space. >> we have been using the term human synergy through synergy and a lot to think about and acceleration of the case of technological innovation with this exogenous stock that the pandemic has created with a positive outcome and it's forcing us to ask questions on what makes sense and i appreciate you very much bringing that up. it's so critical when we think about that and what tools and practices to adopt.

we have one more question the chat of the five question for the audience how do you address technology to fight for workers or may not have the resources for remote work and in particular building on that somebody said to implement something like that and they were required mandatory work from home but now have flexibility in thinking about their hybrid ongoing work structure? >> for their people working in the office or out of the office companies are saving so much money. the fact that we have work at home and the wear and tear on our furniture and wi-fi in our households. we are saving, saving, saving

companies and companies need to equip us 100%. to me this is absolutely not negotiable because when we talk to companies they are saving so much money because of the new work arrangement and we need to make sure we give people what they need. everyone when everyone thrives. >> i can't think of a better way to end this session. what a fantastic statement to carry forward with us. thank you so very much for joining us. it's been an absolute joy. just very very grateful and huge congratulations on writing such a fantastic fantastic book and i'm going to say the name and i'm going to read it. it is "remote work revolution" succeeding from anywhere by

tsedal neeley and for those of us and i decide i want to remind our senior executive members that we have an discussion on may 25 from 11:45 to 12:45 and thank you so much and all of those of you who are able to join us thank you for your time. tsedal it's been a pleasure. stay safe and stay well and look forward to seeing you again. >> thank you so much. goodbye politics -- weighs in on american politics. cnn senior legal analyst ellie

hoenig takes a critical look at former attorney general william barr's time in the trump administration in hatchet a man. >> every saturday you'll find

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