>> good evening. i'm alan price, director of the john f. kennedy presidential library and museum. on behalf of all my library and foundation colleagues, i'm delighted to welcome all of you who are watching tonight's program on-line. thank you for joining us this evening. i would like to acknowledge the generous support of our underwriters for the kennedy library forum lead sponsors bank of america, the lowell institute, and at&t and media sponsors boston globe and wbui. kennedy library education and public program on civil rights and social justice are supported in part by at&t. we look forward to a robust

question-and-answer period this evening. you will see full instructions on the screen for submitting your questions via e-mail or comments on our youtube page during this program. we are so grateful to have this timely opportunity to explore robert f. kennedy's work and legacy with our distinguished guests. i'm now delighted to introduce tonight's speakers. i'm pleased to extend a warm virtual welcome back to the library to patricia sullivan, the professor of history at the university of south carolina. she is the author and editor of books including "lift every voice, the naacp and making of the civil rights movement", "days of hope" and "freedom writer" letters from the civil rights years. her new book is "justice rising, robert kennedy's america in black and white". i'm also pleased to welcome back

our moderator for this evening's discussion, kenneth mack is the inaugural professor of law and affiliate professor of history at harvard university. his research and teaching have focused on american legal and constitutional history, with a particular emphasis on race relations, politics, and economic life. he's the author of "representing the race, the creation of the civil rights lawyer" and coeditor of "the new black, what has changed and what has not with race in america". welcome back to both of you. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thanks. >> thank you, alan. it is a pleasure to be here with my old friend patricia sullivan to talk about her amazing book "justice rising robert kennedy's america in black and white". just for the viewers, professor

sullivan and i are going to have a conversation for about -- till about 7:00. as director price just mentioned, you can submit questions. there should be instructions on the screen, and around 7:00 or so, we will transition over to q&a. >> great. >> let's get started. you know, pat, you know, i would like to just start with just the origins of this book. >> uh-huh. >> a book about bobby kennedy, race, and civil rights. for most of your career, you have been a historian of the civil rights movement, written about grassroots activists that are mostly overlooked, the southern writer and activist, organizations like the naacp, so

bobby kennedy may be a bit of an unusual topic but maybe follows from what you have written before. what drew you to write about a book by somebody who has hardly been overlooked, and what did you hope to accomplish when you started this project? >> thanks. it is great to be with you virtually and to be at the library. i thank everybody for organizing this event. i didn't start out to write a book about bobby kennedy. it was the furthest thing of my mind, but the book project sort of grew out of [inaudible]. -- covering generations of civil rights and reconstruction era. my last book on the naacp which spanned a period from 1910 up to about 1960 really opened up the national framework of justice

and civil rights. it was an amazing project to work on, and so just the dynamic across several generations of this struggle to realize the constitutional guarantees in the 14th and 15th amendments and the sorts of activities people, the community, the ways in which it intersected with national development, the depression, and black migration during these decades is reshaping the racial landscape in the united states, and segregation is becoming more deeply entrenched in northern and western cities. so by the time i got to the end of it, it was the decision that accelerates in the south, in 1960. i wanted to take a fresh look at

the 1960s. it's a national issue. struggling around the country. we tend to look at the south and look at urban issues after 1964. so i started reading, wrote a book proposal, you know, and robert kennedy would pop up in different situations. a literary agent i worked with said write a book about bobby kennedy. i didn't plan to write a book about him, but i realized as i read more deeply and looked at robert kennedy through the context of the racial struggles and trand -- transformation in the 1960s that would allow me to explore and really disrupt what we think we know and look at the larger context of racial change during that decade, and at the

same time, i got to know him about him in ways that i really had no idea. i really think his public life which is really central i think had largely been overlooked. i sort of came into it, and it's been amazing journey. i have learned quite a bit. >> yeah. [inaudible]. it is a recreation as well of kennedy himself. you know, kennedy is somebody who people think they know, right? he's this iconic figure. people have written about him, arthur schlessinger's famous book. other people have written about

him and his brother. what were the prevailing views of kennedy in civil rights when you started this project, and what remained to be said about that? >> great question. you know, the prevailing views were he didn't seem as central -- people thought he didn't do enough, and he wasn't integrated into the context of african american struggle and the broader civil rights activities and then also the challenges in urban areas that really become evident in the late 50s and early 60s baldwin and malcolm x and people like that. so he really was on the margins, on the margins of much of the work done in the civil rights movement and not that all these were great that had been done, but as i tell my students, what

you find in the past is dependent on the questions you ask, and i was different kinds of questions. and as i mentioned, arthur schlessinger's biography is classic, terrific. a number of other biographies i learned a lot from. but again, they looked at his life in a different kind of context, and now that the book is done, i'm kind of surprised by what all of us missed, i mean i missed, i have been working on 20th century history, but again you say grassroots and looking at different dimensions, but really it is a fresh take and surprisingly changes [inaudible]. >> this is a book about a journey. it's about america's journey through the 1960's. it's about bobby kennedy's

journey through the 1960's. i just wanted you to tell the reader a little bit about what that journey is like. you know, where does bobby kennedy and america begin, at the beginning of the story, and where does the story end up? what did you learn from this journey? >> i will try to keep this brief. [laughter] well, when i started out, when i realized -- and i really don't know how the book would turn out, but i realized that he was significant in ways that had not been explored yet, and so -- and i knew certain aspects of what he did and how he was engaged as an attorney general, as his brother's advisor, as a senator, as a presidential candidate, you know, just highlights that -- pointed towards the richness of

the story i was exploring. but i began by -- i realized he was a major force. he was aligned -- i mean the civil rights movement created a demand, with the sit-ins and [inaudible] of the 1960's. what i found out of that, both robert kennedy and his brother, the president, is not only did they respond to the demands which was, you know, urgent, but they responded to the opportunities created by the demands. so the question is, you know, what prepared robert kennedy to see and to act in a way that really broke away from traditional politics and public leadership? and so i spent a good -- the kennedy library was my home for so much of this. the resources there are enormously rich. and so i did some background research on his life up to 1960. and there are characteristics about him, he's compassionate. he had a questioning spirit.

you know, there are things about him that make him open. he told the truth. so you know, by the time we get -- and there's one incident early on which was really interesting to me, when he was a student at the university of virginia, he was the head of the legal forum, in 1951, third year law student, [inaudible] to come speak at the uva, noted civil rights activist, political scientist, just a remarkable human being, and he said he would come but only if it wasn't segregated. back then the public meeting had to be segregated. he thought that was ridiculous. he was aware of the court

decisions in naacp and higher education, so he pushed, and he talked with students, faculty, ultimately the president of uva, and they agreed to the non-segregated meeting. as far as i can tell, it is the first meeting of that kind, public, non-segregated meeting on the campus. that wasn't an epiphany. he went on. his first daughter was born. he was a young married couple. but by the time he got to 19 -- and the 50's are interesting. i wrote about that in my book, what's happening in the african american struggle, around parks, malcolm x, baldwin, so things are heating up. people are moving at a parallel. 1960 the campaign is a pivot point because [inaudible] --

also ignites youth activism. 1960 when john kennedy ran, by that time, the black migration, the black vote in the north was pivotal. they had the importance of trying to figure out how to get the black vote, hold on to the south, get elected, at the same time they are seeing the country in turmoil basically in a positive way, with this movement and all the energy coming from it. i will try to speed up because we just got up to 1960, but i guess looking at when he comes to -- even that year 1960, there's evidence of him looking at conditions in urban areas. he wants to win. he's the best campaign manager, but by the time he becomes attorney general, in 1961, he's ready. you know, he's ready to see.

he's not -- he will see the complexity of the problem in the 60s, but he's oriented as race and discrimination as a major crisis facing the country domestically, and then as attorney general he responds -- i mean, amazing justice department, brilliant lawyers, they quadruple the number of lawyers in the civil rights division. they are ready to respond to what's happening in the south. these incidents, they see how tough it is going to be. it is sort of like today, you know, southern governors and local officials defying the law, tolerating or even condoning mob violence. in 1961 he says in alabama after the freedom rides, talking about the governor and other public

officials, they are at war with this country. it is not an easy road. maybe i should stop there, but as it goes on, you know, he's also looking north. let me mention one thing because this is throughout the book, in the spring of 1961, he's at a meeting in new york, with cbs building, tv interview, he walks up to east harlem and has a private, not publicized meeting -- [inaudible]. he's starting to look at the problems of juvenile delinquency, not as an identity for young people, but the problems of young people living in poverty, and, you know, how to respond to that, and he begins organizing some community programs to provide support for recreation job training and the rest, so he's got a double

vision, about the south and that movement that's very much in national spotlight and what is -- what urban areas are like with this deeply entrenched [inaudible] that's gone up over several decades. that's a long answer. >> no, this is great. as a matter of fact, i want to pick up on something you just said. you said that, you know, fairly on in 1961, kennedy is thinking about what we might call entrenched racial inequality, entrenched segregation, he's thinking about racial problems in the north. of course, this book "justice rising" is appearing at this moment that we're in, where there's this large debate in the u.s. and across the world about things like how entrenched is

racial inequality? what should we do about it? what are the perspectives of people of color, particularly african americans in the struggle against it? should black people be at the center of the struggle? should it be interracial? so you're describing kennedy being at the center of, you know, analogous moment, a different moment, but an analogous moment in the 60s. but i want to start with the story you -- you almost start the book with this famous meeting between kennedy and a number of african american leaders, james baldwin and a bunch of other people in new york. describe that meeting for our listeners and, you know, what happened? what does kennedy learn from it? and why did you choose that as the opening thing to frame the

book? >> you know, that was one of the incidents that drew me to look deeper. the meeting occurs in may of 1963, may 24th, i think, and that month, i mean, the birmingham crisis -- birmingham exploded, and protests exploded across the country after people saw the police turning dogs and fire hoses on protesters. so things were at a fever pitch. and the administration began working immediately on civil rights legislation. nobody thought it was going to get through, but got to move, got to do something. in the heat of this [inaudible], it is a really intense period of several weeks. dick gregory had recommended to marshall, the assistant attorney general that baldwin and robert

kennedy meet. they had met at the white house. he and bobby met. they talked, and they said they should talk again, but then life happens, things move on, so it is about a year later. they decided to have this meeting in new york. his recollection of this meeting, he felt that, you know, kennedy was someone he could read, was unlike most politicians and public figures baldwin had interacted with, but he felt he needed to really know things more in the north. -- know how things were in the north. kennedy went to the meeting thinking he would get some advice or insight into how to deal with the problems in the north. it wasn't just pass a law and desegregate.

you know, there was entrenched segregation and all that came with that. so he goes to the meeting, and i mean his intention is to kind of let them know the kind of political challenges that the kennedy administration faces, and they were real. i mean, you know, sort of like today. i mean, you have this congress -- [inaudible]. so people gather. baldwin had no agenda. he just had people he respected he thought should be there, and, you know, they would just talk. and one of the people came to the meeting was a 23-year-old civil rights activist who had been in the movement since the sit-ins, had been beaten, just gone through horrible -- this is 63. he's on the front lines, and he was in new york. he had a broken jaw and other injuries that he had endure. so he's sitting in this meeting.

things start going on. he said wait a minute, it makes me sick to be in this room having even to talk -- and then he said to kennedy you haven't done enough. kennedy looked to the others thinking -- no, he's the person you should be listening to. he's the one that came from the battle. what it showed, there's this communication gap, right, and then there's young person who carried the whole thing. it went on for three hours. kennedy tried to answer. they talked about all the things that the federal government had done or failed to do. it was a litany and everybody got in. there's no real transcript, but i put it together from recollections people had that were at the meeting.

the gist of it is after a while kennedy just sat silently. at one point, someone said to him -- [inaudible]. baldwin describes this when white and black come together, there's this. he said if you don't get it, we're in trouble, because you and your brother are the best of what america has to offer, which was quite a statement. and kennedy sat there for three hours, and then he said okay, we're done. the people, they leave. and there he is. so how people -- and everybody was shook up by the meeting. kenneth clark said it was the most dramatic, violent

encounter, verbal, that he had been a part of. that happened then. people say that changed kennedy. and marshall says it did not. by 1963, he knew things were awful. he knew all that; right? but it just startled him. it was emotionally a very tough thing. but the one thing that came through because there was a point when baldwin says -- [inaudible]. but then afterwards, within a couple of days, he said if i was in his shoes, i think i would probably feel this way. he heard them, you know. and i think to me it captures the tension of the moment. i mean, the country is at the verge of an explosion and what to do, how to fix it.

[inaudible]. what you see is everybody, you know, had to do it. i think they understood what the movement had done across the board. i mean, to push these issues forward, they realized that a main part of their job was to talk to white people, right, to talk to the majority in the country and that they were the problem because after the meeting somebody said -- it was not long after the meeting, they were a little shook up -- [inaudible]. they said would you meet again? they said yes of course, they are not the problem. it is the white people. white people are denying them rights. it is a dramatic meeting. i open the book with it because i think it is a snapshot of that moment. two days later they are facing george wallace and the challenge of integrating the university of alabama.

i mean there was a fire on every front. so i mean what do you think? you know, in terms of how i approached that meeting, and how it's perceived. of course at the end of the book, the surprise is the interview i found with baldwin in the kennedy library on how he looked back on bobby kennedy, but i mean at the moment they weren't happy. he represented -- he as the attorney general of the united states represented the failure of the government. in an abstract way. i mean people had relationships. it wasn't personal as he bobby kennedy, it was the government, you know, and just tired of having to thread the needle on white political pressure to move, you know, but of course those were the realities that public figures have to deal

with, if they want to pass civil rights legislation. >> yeah, it's interesting. one of the things you're sort -- at least since as i read the book, it is saying is that -- what it does resonate with today is that bobby kennedy is being educated by black people in a way. you know, he and his brother are racial liberals. you know, they are on that side of the political spectrum, but there's an area where white people and black people don't really meet and don't sort of talk, and this is a pretty frank exchange, maybe one that kennedy didn't expect to have. >> no, he did not. i think the point you make, ken, it is really important for listeners and -- is what the country was like by the late 50s and the toll that segregation took on [inaudible], but i mean

the ignorance, no interaction, no contact, and it -- i mean it's something to be mindful of, and your point about, yes, they saw the black movement as the change, but they also saw and understood the impatience. again, when robert kennedy sees young people living under these horrible conditions, no access to education, no jobs, a sense that there's no way out, he understood that first of all the inhumanity of that and just the -- and that that is explosive. people have no way out, but how to deal with that -- he in his own way and in washington, d.c., he did work in a personal way on trying to engage with these communities, and that culminates

with the project in 1966. but it really i think shows that okay, it's bad. how do you grab hold? how do you begin to address these issues, but your point is the central one, that the african american movement -- the black movement had finally forced this into the center of national attention, and people had to respond, and the way both jfk, bobby kennedy, they saw it, learned from it, and they understood history, you know, they understood history, and continued to engage history as they tried to understand this moment, a crisis 100 years in the making, looking back to reconstruction and then the betrayal of reconstruction. they saw that, and they realized the cumulative impact of time in creating this situation. ::

>> this book is dedicated to engaging with what they were able to do and what they were able to not do. a specific, bobby kennedy, i can think about several phases of his career. the may describe this in accurately. as a public figure, he helps with his brothers campaign. as attorney general in the united states and a pivotal moment the civil rights movement and the department of justice peace and doing a number of things, that you document in the book. and again, he is a public figure. he is able to push my foreground public issues.

and then he runs for president. all the way he is doing things like the science project which i'm sure you'll talk a little bit about. can you sort of list some of the principles. people say that he did not do enough. so what did he do pretty taking senator and what are the main things that we can say that kennedy accomplished parades and civil rights. patricia: [applause] the work that edenic, before he created the opportunity to do it. billing that team, the first marshal, this basic fear operation of civil rights. and litigate printed and working

with people. [inaudible]. so he created that and i think that the justice department and again i don't think it has been fully explored to look exactly what they did and what they were up against. how they movement in 1962. they introduce the voting rights bill. he said that we have to do something. and bobby kennedy goes up against them back and forth back and forth. and this was an important position that you cannot. [inaudible]. there was some really major way that the southerners viewed the

african-americans. the path that he tried and in another said that you know people that you're never going to see a large movement. you should not be concerned over it right. i think. [inaudible]. at that moment, all heck is breaking loose everywhere. in the response to the birmingham, maybe the country now, that will be able to get pressure but when they do is they bring groups to the white house and lobby and small groups in big groups and women's group can get people engaged prayed and then they write that bill and nobody, they said that they don't think that's unlikely that we can get this to go through but we have to try. within they also said, that if

people think a lot is going to make this problem go away, they're out of their mind. he understood this. so for two and half years, that president kennedy is in the white house, and bobby came in 1964, the spring 63, they were writing and immobilizing support and figuring out strategies to be able to go through bipartisan and bringing this into law and by the time john kennedy goes to dallas and that bill is on its way. basically is the bill the guys on in july. and that is not a matter of in 1964 the really documents this pretty to benefit putting into context and in the other thing, i was his city dc. right. he saw again other cities what

is happening to young people. opportunities and disclosed for nine years. [inaudible]. that the dc cannot get the money to the senators and pushed for rules are needed but he was raised the money. and he started and organized a job program for kids to get jobs and in summer jobs of the year. so we see things on a level. he was committed to what was happening to those children. close to five years, 1700 roughly african-americans in private school private public school.

and do whatever you can. it is no longer legally possible. whenever, just do something and they created the freak school is a way to litigate case. and is getting support from the county they created an opening and ironically an open in september of 1963. the day after the birmingham ball. so this is a really explosive thing but if people have that, i think the people and say that, i'm not in the work of looking and instead of in fact check. [inaudible]. and really the history is complex and rich. and then i shouldn't, the time that he became a senator, he focuses his attention on the urban and what is happening in the city and he was the one

person after that exploding in august of 1965, and the push lawn order and more policing across the political spectrum. margaret kennedy said, and he used the term negroes and they said have respect pretty so they moved out law across that because landlords and merchants and you know, understanding and he spoke it. and he really pushed to those conditions in the urban areas. to support government involvement in working directly for the communities to begin to the repair and fix the damage and of poverty and poor schools in america. so i think there is no nothing after that predict a look at the. and also understand what is going on. understand the political side and understand and minimize not

just one thing. but the many different ways that he and the people he worked with and work with him and president kennedy i thank you so an opportunity but he spent a good bit of time on president kennedy. he understood what the issues was printed in the interview, that was in april and and again you have to find the opening. and into a half years, achieved quite a bit if you look at it in the context of the. ahead sort of what was attempted and how they influenced the civil rights bill and the people and all of the risk. it is not for understanding is really tough work. >> so i hear you saying that and

picking up on our previous discussion that kennedy is being educated by being exposed to the problems of the african-americans. and he's doing things like trying to address and protect black rights. and of course we kind of thought that was a battle but we are back in the middle of it again. and these things that are kind of the next stage of the movement through these encounters with black people. and educate them pretty to like pushing for the civil rights bill when the democratic party is still the party of the solid south segregation and most likely to get through. later in this career trying to think about things like dc how problems of the urban youth and things are sort of cutting edge. and also i want to exaggerate

too much but there's a sort of critique of the kind of late 60s liberals. in the historian that there was this consensus around crime and that that was the main public policy to be directed at the problems in urban areas. and that that mass incarceration. not to say that kennedy was apart from that but he could see the threat of the other side. i would argue with that. i think that he realized that you stop you know, but no, to him the most important thing with the conditions in the urban areas. he understood what people going through. and he said that is not a

solution, in fact that aggregates problem, more violence. i feel like this book is where he picks up because the fact is through the late 60s, everything is happening, the forces are he and martin luther king are sing the war on poverty shrink and all of the programs that can help beginning to regress. and help people in these communities help themselves. fix the schools and created jobs and all that. i don't thank you so going read and he has a different take and thank you so analysis of the situation was correct. of the people who like lyndon johnson who were really law and

order issues. crime issue but do not going to do anything. like the more intimate now. was in there. i think he had a different analysis and it doesn't make it which is sent important. and he's not the only one. there are many people do somethings that way i sort of unique as a white political figure. he wanted to incorporate when he became president, the federal theater project to support the cultural development. in the pole in both directions which in a book really documents and brexit town. [inaudible]. and the viewpoint where we are back today to similar questions that we have during this period of time.

>> i am interested in differences, if any between bobby kennedy and his brother john now course president kennedy was tragically assassinated in 1963. so we don't really have the evidence because we don't really actually have him being exposed to the development. apart what you're saying is i kennedy is saying things early. as early as 1961. and maybe that many liberal public are really quite staying yet. you get the sense the body is different than john in the sees the problem. the maybe we just don't have

enough evidence because kennedy was assassinated and we don't know where he would go. patricia: i think of john kennedy, he understood that there's commercial or met with him and again this was at the library which was so revealing that john f. kennedy thompson's of marshall can come meet with him in the senate office. when he was a candidate been printed. [inaudible]. he understood everything. what marshall said, he is for an he wants to change things. their great quotes quotes in the book. he supported the quality and citizenship in pro rights. they would not be the normal single politician. as we christians for this, he

said the republicans, this is like war. our country is at stake. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. patricia: and i think that ours of the book that i think the president and kennedy understood it. on the speech that he gave in hawaii, and right before defines a problem is a national problem. in our cities are on fire. police oppression and we have got to be who we say we are. and and discrimination. so i think that is a great

question i don't have the final answer. there closer to get to getting people with different nationalities and different ways of engaging. and i that robert kennedy felt this passionately and intensely in a really gave it his all. in ways that were unique to him. kenneth: it is interesting right. i particularly president kennedy and you had written that particular incident the 700 southerners and senators. and segregation and that he had promised with that segregation and how to and after his elected and they were sending him pens. and okay you have executive

order. and that indirectly the administration it in the department of justice, so why that misconception it. patricia: i think it is very good question. collington historians. i would argue that. the effort to get the civil rights to introduce in 1962, and have a played out and they were all for civil rights lab hundred legislation but the reality, the power of southern get democrats we can only do what you do. after he moves towards his in 1963, his advisor told him not to do the speech. we thought it would jeopardize the election. that was 1964 fighting that could happen. he's known doing it.

and the only people that thought he should do is his brother and him predict negative from his brother point is that politically they had the confidence printed as a charismatic leader. he was smart. and i think that if he did, it would be tough. and democrats traditionally stated the south to win. so i think that we shouldn't be judging. an essay that without digging in and contextualizing it, and the political figure and what you can do. he may be a hero but it doesn't and again were looking at this today. it is very tough. to think about the challenges

that biden faces and how do you navigate this. there are other places people who work with state and local levels in many ways the people will continue but depending on your position, is elected official, you have to it's about accomplishing something i think the kennedys was better at accomplishing something. it really realizes in the country was night 60 shows this moment. [inaudible]. in 1953 and certainly. are you convinced yet. [laughter] read. kenneth: in the report that i read in your book. [inaudible]. patricia: i am not trying to put

them up, they moved in their time in the connected with forces that were moving the country and challenging the country and moving it forward. and that is what i thank you so significant. but the right leader or but how do you function and know that this is law and are so many ways we have to face this moved to change. people's attitudes and ideas, so yes, i'm a better appreciation of that. i thought i knew and it didn't matter. so again, is a context in looking at the history and polar measure. this period of time. kenneth: before we get to

questions, maybe want to talk about one of the thing in your book you mentioned briefly earlier than the conversation. the book you talk about several corporations and a camera number the names of all of them, they have similar names. and it's an interesting item i would like for you to talk about it, how kennedy and what is interesting about it is he comes to this kind of struggle. and why people with money. about who's going to control of think. and eventually commerce one is a mean in chart rated but can you kind of narrate the story. how kennedy comes to be involved in helping hopes to resolve the tension about who's going to run it.

patricia: is another example, the war on poverty is shrinking. in the cities, he is a senator from new york. and really wanted to do something. he said people like me have to make speeches, we have to act. sue and 66, and goes and he walks through and he talked to and talk to local leaders. he decides that very are going to develop a project here read robert kennedy in new york, attracting and hiring really smart committed people and had to younger aged people who are younger bright and energetic.

but kennedy was concerned and they did the study and and tom johnson up as well. very important. and they explored predict like all kinds of people working in the city to figure out what might work. in the developed this corporation which was also managed to get funding that could help. and joe clark in pennsylvania anyhow, basically there's not enough government money to do what needs to be done and they developed a project the two entities in one is the community, community board representing the interests and concerns of what should be done.

it was looking at everything housing and education, a number of projects that would be developed over time. to redevelop the communities. and then they asked what about getting aboard of corporative people help raise money and to provide advice and so robert kennedy 20 field into a number of people got tremendous support. the names are in my head right now summer. as a people involved in business and finance and that was enough. they sought was at happening. in their interest was motivated by that as well. really something had to be done basically. kennedy really for sized to

that. they were advising the community of the developing of the project. and the reason why is the ones charge of community, whether it had been women who have been working for evan they had helped the community been the number of people, that kind of blew up that had to be - and then when things finally got blown up, kennedy wrote great who - had removed. so he brought thomas and in and agreed to head the community for it. they seemed to be taking more control. so i got a little testy. nso works out, how much pushed

ahead for god people jobs and find out what the community wants. it is kind of stuff to make a plan. and eventually, kennedy was leaving leading the justice department. any asked on to work on. [inaudible]. on the business side and withdrawn coming in, front door is. [inaudible]. and eventually another comes in. they got involved. [inaudible]. it became a model. and martin lutheran king used as a model run by the community. to a large extent, that was not even in question. but again if he needed to raise

the money. the support so there was a church involved in this project. which i say number of times and it certainly was worth looking at. but again, is not perfect but it was initially that and very well received. in new york. [inaudible]. and also similar in philadelphia and just trying to find other ways on the war of poverty. [inaudible]. and help local people, the community people involved in determining what they needed. kenneth: great. so will start questions about three minutes but if you have to ask another question. obviously, you have thought about this, bobby kennedy in the

late 1960s, he as you say in your book, range running for president, his advisers advised him against giving a civil rights speech in place like indiana. and really sort of actually talking with the rights but there's a lot of white local class voters and some in the south. but the great obviously was a person who during this coalition and the gun on civil rights and could go on police with some rights under white working-class people. and these questions that we face today. and, people are optimistic about

poverty. they think he had the potential. i'm just interested in your thinking and speculation about this what if question. are those people optimistic about bobbing that regard. is there optimism misplaced. we don't have enough evidence. in thinking about great what if of bobby kennedy. patricia: i think that it's highly likely they would have been nominated. if he had become president. that is passé. we needed something new and a totally new but as he inspired people, younger people. and he also brought tremendous

and attracted tremendous talent who are committed late he was. and i was back in the 60s with the civil rights movement and young people it really attracted a lot of people. he wanted to be part of the public lips i think that he would've had that power. if you would become president and the administration that would been done well and amazing and again nobody knew about the challenges. somebody said to me once, the difference between what if kennedy and in roosevelt and nixon. [inaudible]. so kennedy had to be a pivotal player and he was confident any attract, look what he did. robert kennedy attracted people.

that would've been in the late 60s. there's a lot that had a change in politics. in public life in the 60s began changing and i think his capacity and his ability to bring people in and delegate. that was something that maybe could've made may be different at that moment compared to when you think about how things are current and again the country, we talk about racism and where things were coming party to settle problems, there is no telling. [inaudible]. could've it been entirely different. yes. that would've been i think would've been helpful to move our public lives into our democracy and a new direction. who knows what that would've brought but is certainly

would've been interesting to see. kenneth: great. in the last thing that i will say is one of the question, was one of these people that you described would've been, too young to join the administration but certainly inspired by kennedy and barack obama's campaign manager and advisor at the white house rated and bobby kennedy in the integration of figure and they saw barack obama and the thing he recalled was how bobby kennedy inspired people freighted so you're certainly right about his ability to inspire young and creative people. okay, so questions. someone could jump around on the questions. some we talked about like there's a question about kennedy's outside of the south and we talked a little bit around that.

but, i'm going to ask a question that you thought about before and i am just going to be the question. i'm irreconcilable robert kennedy's work on behalf of mccarthy's un-american act and really hard work that he did later to support his rights. [inaudible]. patricia: that is a great question partied and when i had it in one of my books. and, the answer is that robert kennedy joined that committee i think it was in 53. first of all, they hated each other. and. [inaudible]. there in the libraries and stuff and robert kennedy's job on that committee was to investigate

allies, trading was not common so he was asking questions to mccarthy. he was doing a study of who was trading with and he found out. and with his work god praised the washington post and really good things in their and important information. but, by the time six months, he became an mccarthy headed the staff and robert kennedy quit. so before he quit, they almost got into a fist fight everyone hearing. mccarthy oh yes, that's right pretty so he quit and went and worked on some of the committee partied and he was hired by the democrats and he worked on the republican side. he was hired by the democrats.

many came in right before mccarthy began. any challenges the: on the number of things in the robert kennedy was the one who wrote the report the sensor joe mccarthy. and if so, again he had been shipped with the family for ten years earlier. there was a personal relationship but his work on the committee was not figuring out communism that type of thing in years later, he did feel that a lot of people but in the early 60s, a journalist you know, some never forget robert kennedy and mccarthy but his friends like. [inaudible]. this happened in the asked him pretty and he said that i thought and i was wrong. [laughter] so it really is a headline

grabber. people gravitate to that. but he did not in fact, while he's working for this money, he went to find out more about the party and the curiosity read. [inaudible]. so i think it's more complicated than we see looking back. kenneth: here's an open ended question and i am just going to well the question is, did he robert kennedy, ever feel lucky was good enough. i guess the phrase don't worry about whether you are good enough. how did you get a sense of how he felt about the work that he was doing pretty did he feel like he was doing or he should be doing more rain it was disappointed in what he accomplished printed. patricia: he strikes me as the kind of person who had a sense. like he was involved in doing this and he was passionate any

of patients. he understood if there was one problem, there were 12 more and they were more complex than the ones before party to just keep learning and keep looking at party did he went, he saw me listened and did. and that inspired him. [inaudible]. i think he made mistakes but when you think about that, whatever but i think he understood the nature and he understood and he wasn't self-absorbed. he was engaged and the life as a country in the work of the country. this was at a time when the urgency was great. so i don't think, think running for president, that's interesting. what brought him to that decision. we don't know. it's really interesting the inside of that. there is no clear path.

robert kennedy understood that there was no clear path, that you had to keep trying keep learning and growing and that. kenneth: so here's another question. can you discuss the role in the crisis and how that affected him. and also the mississippi delta. another turning point in his life and understanding. patricia: that is a great question. i'll try to answer them. the fact this is huge. the biggest financial crisis in 1963 and this role governor, they have supreme court ruling to be admitted and mississippi. they had what burke marshall calls and insurgency. it was on the hands.

all heck could break loose. if they did not do this job. so the build up to that was to try to and when he said he would and then he didn't and marshall and a riot. on the campus. [inaudible]. and it was protected. and the only marshall could shoot to kill only if is threatened. and two people were shot and killed. in a call of the army in the army center was the worst night of my life. nina present the raids were sitting the white house rated their calling from a payphone. this was way before cell phones. and it was just awful. and after it was over, someone asked me what his brother had learned. this was interesting from the

crisis in a semi- brother lord never to trust or believe another, the old-school interpretation of an the federal government pretty. [inaudible]. they just brought it to life rated in the truth of the delta. one of the thing. president kennedy told me about that event robert kennedy went back in 19662 and invited by the law student to come back. and what's going to happen when i go back there party to this was four years later. so he went. they had some protections. and people in that state the law students didn't want him and they he went. [inaudible]. found was great. the background and the students and it was wonderful speed

speech.[inaudible]. but the delta, in 1967, they would hold fewer hearings and investigate war and poverty program that was happening in one of them was in jackson. there's my picture in the book. and testifying robert kennedy is there. and he heard about the poverty and historic project. then just he wanted to see. again, he wanted to see so he and another mary pride and peter, they went and they came and testified in washington. and it was, he had never seen poverty as he had their party did.

[inaudible]. and went back and immediately he pushed to get more federal aid. but it really affected him and horrified him but he just kept him going. i had hearings that they brought people to washington to try to really push for the federal government to expand the poverty programs. around the country. great question pretty. kenneth: so here's another one. at the questioner asks about in 1968, late night meeting in west oakland. okay, 1968, west oakland 1963. the baldwin meeting is one thing

that we have discussed before. what about the approach you changed why he went and how he tried to transfer the discussion into action. so i guess the question federal proposes didn't open meeting also fill the gap of imported for the black community for the primary. patricia: is certainly helped carney the this really about the other side involvement rated people were angry. and so, part of this primary, he went to church - this was at 10:00 o'clock at night. and johnson and john glenn. and john stevens rated and off they go. and about he said to just be quiet party any left.

[laughter] [inaudible]. get up there and he said this is wrong, that is wrong. why did you do this, why did you do that predict and he answered and he talked about thanks. this kind of on the radar. in one point, he got up he was so angry pretty did he said nope, nope. this between them and me. and went on. and the moderator. [inaudible]. by the end of, they had reached the end of the discussion in the way back and john glenn said well, i don't think that would happen tonight and the other guy said oh no, they will work. and the next day, african-american newspaper publisher said we will have

people calling him and writing him. and yes, they joined up in the work on this campaign rated there was such a and then he went back to oakland the next day pretty was supposed to go somewhere else to a park. i spoke to the community pretty ended up having a rally. so this was a great moment but he listened and he was there and responsive and of course, in the primary, i think he got 96 percent of the african vote predict huge boat. so yes. kenneth: it is interesting to hear you saying is and i forgot the way you had phrased it earlier than the human he did this and he listened. and he's continually listening to people that are very aggressive away and others that

were not hearing him and he reached some of those people even though they didn't necessarily agree with everything of his approach. patricia: one of the people in the park, after it said that he is not no, is not one of the last liberals, he is the last of the great believable's. the last of the great believable's. suet can you expand on the more. what does that mean. the last of the great believable's. patricia: people listen to him he did not overpromising do not make things up and he's interested in things and even coming from this political figure. so i think that is just telling. untrusting that was a concern. kenneth: here is another

question. how much did jfk's assassination it open a room for letter bobby to feel and see things differently 1968. many had prior to 1963. our maybe that's too much i don't know. patricia: when around about president kennedy's assassination, i remember that those awful land terrible. i'm new that it was going to happen but when it happened, and writing about robert kennedy in that moment. i talked to people who knew him then.

[inaudible]. was devastating in ways that were indescribable. but how it impacted him, people say change and people quote to tampa said no, he was always himself pretty was compassionate as law professors and really this is interesting. they said that he said, he was the black - brother. he took care of his brother. [inaudible]. and he said that once he was gone, he said bobby became more and more himself. he moved into his public life and again, these that he had developed in sort of experience and it was interesting to think about that. you can correctly but for the rest of his life, he had lost

the notion of change. and continuing on. and put all his energy and things he cared about. kenneth: here's another question. back to the critical questioning. have you thought about this before. how should we look at the complicated relationships with martin thinking. wiretapping him and his instruction. i take a question to be asking about the fact that robert kennedy authorized the wiretap on martin luther king. and think about that. patricia: you should be my book because i was concerned about that read us, very complicated.

there was pressure there was power. he knew the communism and the hoover kept pressing. and they were talking. so when he finally i mean, i don't get too much into this but. [inaudible]. that pressure to hoover's pressure and kennedy and everything that he had, martin luther and king and. [inaudible]. so finally, and 63, he upgraded to a temporary 30 day wiretap. and atlanta and in new york. and if you read about courtney evans, he so he did it.

[inaudible]. and for a couple of reasons that people speculate. hoover had things on the president. and the civil rights bill. this was october they were fighting to get the civil rights bill moved in the committee. he would often come and had a communist connection or whatever. and so i think that it was an attempt and i'm speculating here to also but he again, president kennedy was killed a month later. president johnson came in became president and lyndon johnson it and hoover and had no problem with dealing with king. so yeah, and i hope you'll read about in the book. bizarrely give it a lot of thought. and i sort of land out. and it certainly was not

diminished in fact, fast-forward rated robert kennedy martin luther king become much more closely aligned in terms of looking forward to talking about poverty and they care about the war in vietnam. in the came these hearings in the cities which kennedy was a part of. but he and king almost thought same about the conditions and what to do so the relationship grew. and they both were so closely and what they saw as problems and solutions were very close and the war in vietnam as well. it was interesting to see the relationship develop. after 64 and after 65.

it was never. [inaudible]. they weren't on and become much more closely aligned around the issues of poverty and the war. kenneth: okay, so long and thoughtful question so i will read whole thing. from the moment i read i think the person same red, i read robert kennedy's book, the only seemed like the brain to me someone who could keep order and keep working but a bit reluctant to take or to be the image. i think maybe be the public figure printed name and into john's mortar robert continued with his students a little longer be on the complicated relationships read what you think was the breaking point, the moment that he understood that he had the strength and power to fight on the senate and

then in the race for the presidency read. patricia: is really a great question. when he states or 64, he really became critical. and he carried that through the completion of his work that he and his brother had done. by 1966, he campaigned for other candidates around the country and across see the transforming that he had become a terrific energetic charismatic coming, really well, fully engaged in the work of politics in the senate. and the causes he leads. i don't know what the breaking

point is. i think one i don't think he noted that the day that robert kennedy suffering black-tie hard that it was when they were in latin america a couple of years after president was assassinated. so i think there was a gradual but all but always working and coming into his own rated certainly by 66. he fully came into his own. kenneth: here's a different kind of question. what role did robert kennedy's catholic faith play in his political life. patricia: i think his faith was formative. he would be church on sundays is more than that. i think he had a deep faith and he was of the social justice i

think. the part that identifies specifically the book moments were i think he was a deeply spiritual person and he was i think his faith was formative force in his life and i think how he moved forward and what he achieved, i think that was the important part of his faith and there were other factors as well. he was the kind of catholic did not hesitate to challenge clergy. he was his own person and he had that kind of faith that he was responsible for it and i think he reflected the public service

of life. so . kenneth: okay, so we actually have three minutes i am one last question. i think this is appropriate last question. what about the title of your book. the question is, can the professor comment on her selection it the title of the book, "justice rising" and robert kennedy america black and white. what about the title pretty. patricia: you just described me. sounded good. but now i know what it means and robert kennedy from what i described the book is. [inaudible]. in that way. but "justice rising" is this convergence in this period of time first of all, the civil rights struggle and been going

on for decades but by the 60s, in a way that demanded national attention and action. and then it impacted through the cold war cultural and energized americans engagement among young people. ... ... it has impacts difficult to measure your city this today and i think not everything was achieved, you have a backlash at the end of the decade but in ways that were formative and historically significant and i

think it has tremendous lessons but it's a convergence and it is part of that and really helped contribute to that kind of movement. >> do you agree to which to end? reverse? is a book? robert kennedy's american black and white, amazing book. i read the whole thing, i recommended you read it. a really complicated question. mobilizing all the evidence without that about the wiretap so it's well worth reading. so thank you for this form,

thank you to the audience for coming and for your wonderful questions. thank you to the kennedy library for inviting us both to appear. >> thank you to all. thank you everybody. ♪♪ ♪♪ book tv continues now on c-span2. television for serious readers.