we talked about his time in vietnam soviet union among other things. >> reporter, editor and publisher on this episode of bookmarked live. listen@c-span.org/podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> michael wolf is with us, the

author of seven books including three of the trump presidency and the latest in plain sight, final days of the trump presidency. welcome to "washington journal". >> thank you for having me. >> was always your plan to write about the final daysin of the trump presidency if the situation between the election and operation january 6 included drive your reasoning to write this? >> i had no intention of writing a third book, i thought to was plenty the been january 6 happened and i thought how could i walk away from c this story? this story has immense implications for the moment, for the future. it was a story for better or for worse, i thought i knew as well as anyone and i put my boots back on. >> we met and you wrote two

other books, fire and fury and siege, one of the things that struck me about reading landside in this period of time was a sense of chaos both around the election returns challenging the election, of course january 6, after that surprise you at all? >> well, underlying theme probably up reports of written of the trump administration is chaos, maybe it goes even further than chaos, through the looking class with the trump white house has been in epic story. having said that, the. after the election november 3 became even more if this is what

the trump administration's think flight something, eventh more ot of control, even more disconnected from all measures and functional reality. >> how do you approach writing casebooks on thehe president in terms of getting to sources including accounts -- how are you able to make contacts with people in get good information on what was going onh ? >> not long ago, i was kind of bragging about the fact that i a had bring last book, landside in about four months effectively and my friend said i'm out of practice. i think that is the answer. i've been doing this through three books, i've come to know probably nearly everyone in the

trump orbit or the succession of orbit because most of the people in the trump administration have cycling and cycled out but for better or worse, i have become kind of a trump doorkeeper. >> at the end of the book, you do include an interview with the president, wrote critical books about the president, now former president trump in the end of the book concludes with your visit tomorrow, did thatdi surprise you getting invited to speak to the president cap was particular book? >> in the world of beyond surprised after my first book fire and. kumar, the president tried

anything to stop the publication of the book declared he never met me although i had known him 20 years and went on many twitter rents how low and dishonest i was so i thought iue guess that's it for that relationship but when i started to write landslide talking to many of the people around the president, went in and said i was writing a third book, kind of a warning to the president, former president but he said ohs see him at the end of the day i had been invited down to interview the president of an

interview that turned out to be a number of hours spent have dinner with the former president and former first lady. >> michael wolf is our guest here on "washington journal", his latest book glenside, final days of the cap presidency, we welcome your calls and comments from the lines for democrats 2,027,488,000. repugnant to -- for independent. 8002. pretty and operation and a conversation with the former president himself, let me take you back to the preparation for the debate in the book you write about the preparation with christie was playing joe biden in one of the debate here is, former you broke it is a company and participating in a mock debate session digressing into

the usual monologues, i'm thinking about calling it off, cited trump as oak without much thought, the prep, no the election, too much virus. you can't do that, men are former u.s. attorney after going, you know you can't declare natural law, you do know that, right? both alarming and awkward that he might not. terms preposterous this combined with the possibility of his dead seriousness to create a moment in which embarrassment and crisis seemed indistinguishable. was donald trump talking off the top of his head or being semi serious? >> donald trump always just talking off the top of his head. there's never any preparation, appears to be never a pre-thought or consideration he's gone through whatever he has so there is not this or

that, not a situation in which you could say talking on now but this, when he said it, with some seriousness because it's all just endless blah blah. you can't ever finally say, does he really mean this? is he even going to remember this? minutes from now. >> part of the book you write about that stories would be told incompetent knowing the information would be leaked immediately, in your few, if you think donald trump was aware and okay with information, certain information being leaked to the press box. >> if he is leaking it, other

leaking, it became policy essentially. many around, this has meant anin important part, many of the people around him to basically soccer job as frustrating what the president might want to do that is a large statement. they are supposed to be there tr implement the things he wants to get done but the trump staff in this inversion, ever greater inversion of reality saw it job as exactly the opposite, trump would say we are to stop and you how to distract him or slow walk

whenever things he suggested or you had to leak to the press so the public outcry would stop but always with the main intention of getting in the way of the mostly ridiculous thing the president might want to. >> but among those, you write where jared kushner yvonne clark trump, the president's daughter, did their status change during the parade route about from the election through an operation? did their influence with the president change? >> i think their influence has always remained basically stable because they understood the limits of their influence. more than any people in the

white house yet they could have influenced the that always came up against the barrier of the president who doesn't listen to anyone and also can't really be recent in any conventional sense and the threat of the conversation in short order which goes to say, you could influence him about things he didn't care about or things he wasn't going to remember or things he couldn't comprehend but if you got it into his head but there was something he believed in her want to like the election feel and you just had

to steer clear. jared and his daughter most certainly from a week beyond election knew they could have no effect so basically accepting themselves from any involvement. >> one think you write in w particular, after charlottesville thing of a dress rehearsal for the capitol onslaught, jared and his daughter urged a kinder gentler approach but theories trump broken bonds with the attacker, very fine people on both sides. this was a multiple of charlottesville released starting to sink in this is where they were. i have a photo here from the white house press briefing from the president speaking, comments he made the video late in the day january 6 that he made and

released, who was responsible for getting recorded and out to the public? >> i think there are two important levels here. first, the decision was made, or the advice was strongly suggested it wasn't a live statement. press was clambering to come out, somehow deal with this violent, normally you might think they what but around him including daughter, mark meadows and a few others were in the white house, very clear that he should not make a live statement because it was very possible that same thing in charlottesville what happened

here. he would fear toward support of the protesters so instead they decided to make a video and ivanka was involved in mark meadows and several others. notably, few people there wereow in the white house this time january 6 i tried to count how many and you're talking about a relative handful of people, mostly everyone had gone flee or quit. >> when mark meadows came down with covert after the election, it seemed like it opened the door to all sorts of influencers on the former president, how big of a moment was that how big of a loss present at that time down with covert parks.

>> it was big, one of the things, it wasn't just meadows but among the people around the president had worked in this was really since the first impeachment to keep rudy giuliani out of the white house but with meadows getting sick, it's accommodation of meadows and the president always shopping for someone to tell him exactly what he wanted to hear that allowed rudy giuliani to come back to the white house.ol >> we have michael paul force with us until 9:00 eastern. we do have calls waiting for we do have a question for you on

text. jim from thinkers scripts as, some of my greatest fears about the midterm elections of 2020, i think he means particular to do, work with respect result irrespective of political party. based on your knowledge and expense, i was wondering if my thoughts have any legitimacy, could that happen? >> i think very much, i think that's set up is that the direction of this discussion heading to. at the same time, the former president is absolutely convinced that he will be the determining factor and they will capture, retake the house if not presented so that is a confusing

thing, if they win, at that time because the president say yes, the election system down. >> let's hear from callers. joe in connecticut, public in mind. go ahead. >> good morning, how are you. >> good morning. >> i saw where they show an expert from your book where you stated about charlottesville, i was wondering if you saw whole video where he condemns everybody, i was curious if you saw the whole video. >> iou have, yes. >> why didn't you put the whole thing in there instead of just where he said there's people on both sides? man has been called a racist or a fallacy, over a policy and you

know that. but you keep going with the same thing. have a great day, mr. wolf. >> brenda in pennsylvania on our democrat line. go ahead. >> thank you, money. i was wondering is, were there any whisperings or rumors in the white house that donald trump might issue a flaking part is to all the people at the capitol january 6 it's my understanding jimmy carter issued a blanket pardon to all the draft that avoided the vietnam war so it seems a blanket pardon is possible. trump ever consider blanketsi pardon me while supporters and soldiers or did he just leave them onto the battlefield? >> if so, i don't know that happened. >> will in warrensburg,

missouri. >> i want to go over the pretty young january 6 were all the people were marching up to the capitol. trump always tells lies -- >> i missing the question there. >> our caller left. but talk about mike pence's role on the january 6 former president view of mike pence. where, in your estimation is his relationship with the former president? >> at this time i would say near to nonexistent. the former president seems

convinced that mike pence has the power to reverse the electoral vote and he would use that power on the president's behalf and essentially install the president for a second term january 20 this was absurd and preposterous and mike pence told him i can begin or could not and would not happen but the president continues to believe that and where it did not happen, where mike pence did not, he regarded it as a profound betrayal and although there's been some minor effort

to put a better face on this, the president continues to be deeply resentful about his former vice president. >> the attack on the u.s. capitol led to the second impeachment of donald trump in writing about legal efforts in the book mckusick trump was ranting to his legal team that he didn't want the trial going down this way, technicality, free speech, jurisdiction baloney, he wanted his defense to be the election, the election was stolen, it was stolen, everybody knew it was stolen. he was the chance to lay out the case and the former president proposed to make the case on the senate floor he was the one argument virtually everybody associated with the case had no doubt would get the former president convicted. everybody was trying to save trump from the south, never a promising proposition, how close to reality did not become the

president wanting this line of defense stolen election line is part of his legal team's arguments? >> the second impeachment was such a comedy, a collection of the king who couldn't shoot straight, a disorganized mess. i'm not sure that you could say there was anything close to having because what happened ultimately was completely random, the lawyers didn't know their clients, did not the president, they were barely speaking to him even on the phone, they didn't know the case. you had various lawyers sitting in the middle of it.

defendant the former president of the united states before the united states senate prosecutor by the united states congress and the president was as prepared as if you're going to court. >> sarah is in virginia, go ahead. >> good morning. i'm wondering, i am not a psychologist but i would take his or trump had a narcissistic personality and get when he demanded loyalty from the only people in congress but his followers and everything, did it ever dawn on some of the people that he was a dangerous, a danger to our democracy, did they ever question mental

ability to even lead the united states? that ever come up with any discussions you have with his followers? >> i say this with all sincerity and without any intention hyperbole here, i think everyone who's come into contact withwi donald trump knows that there is something wrong with him, he's nots like and i, his ears don't work, call it what you will but there is something crazy about donald trump and i think in terms of the dangers here, yes. almost everybody understood there were dangers here.

also over the course of four years they came to understand that donald trump had no follow-through, he had no policy goals, no clear intentions beyond getting as much attention for himself as he could possibly get. for better or worse, the republicans are many republicans decided they could live with this, they could accomplish their goal because donald trump himself had no goal of his own so that, i would say pretty close to the bargain that the republican party made. >> i am struck by the contradiction between donald trump's well-known reputation as a great fundraiser and yetnd

reporting your book and i was also that by late summer, the campaign had $200 billion budget gap and i think you write the campaign budget was in freefalla explained that contradiction. >> i think what happened, throughout donald trump's career, he's looked at the top line and ignored the bottom line. he's a man of work $10 billion without accounting for the fact that at most points he's only as much as $10 billion so the campaign, everyone knew that there was one measure he was looking at which is how much

money had they raised, how much money came in through the door? he was never looking at how much it had cost them to raise that much money so in effect, the campaign was standing vastly more than they should have to attract was overwhelmingly all of the donors so at the end of the day or at that time in the summer when the first campaign manager w was fired and a new campaign manager came in, they looked at the budget and said we are $200 million in the hole here they went in the last week of the campaign, this is unprecedented, outspent by the challenger nearly three to one. >> let's hearha from lee in

michigan, republican line. >> mr. wolf, how can you say that donald trump was crazy and have no plan this is another hit job, donald trump's policies were working. unemployment was at an all-time low, rebuilt the military, treaty deals with china, he had the best policy. the best policies the country has ever seen and it was working and you ignore that and say trump is a jerk. people need to wake up, hating on the man about the best president we've ever had, the biggest movement, millions of followers if you say everybody's stupid. >> any response? >> my only response is that this

is the third book i'veth writte, i've spoken to everyone around the president including the president at great length so i am reflecting the experience the people around him have had in the expense i've had, spending a great deal of time with these people and i will say that the policies if you like the former president policies, they largely came from forces other than the president himself, not concerned with policies who had very little interest in politics, certainly absent manager in the executive branch and who was a

man -- who exists in the moment, holy obsessed with the intention he would get from the public or his fan base, his audience but again, this is my experience and that's what i bring to the books i write, this is what i saw. >> you write about the multiples, army to seek his endorsement, what about donald trump himself?el what's your feeling on him running for president 2024? >> i think it's a subject very much on mind at this moment.

>> bill in california. >> good morning. to agree with your last collar, it seems this will cry is obsessed with donald trump -- >> i'm having trouble -- call back again and see if we can get a clearer connection. >> thank you, i would like to suggest that trump is not the problem, republican party before trump sadly it will be trump after trump and i think it goes back newt gingrich and read. gingrich weapon rising rhetoric and read promoting religion because in the trump administration, you had all these people willing to spend

trump's worst fantasies every into even worse on the ground and one reason i think that was popular is that it was all about appealing language like pro ice trickling down in all of these rhetorical phrases that don't reflect realities. not just practices, etc. mindset inviting a certain amount of irrationality so unmarred from the empirical evidence and we need to have this for government. >> okay. michael wolf. >> i don't disagree with the caller, i would however say donald trump presents a further separate problem from the problems one mighthe have with e republican party but the

separate problem in my mind is h that he's crazy. somehow we managed to elect a president operates in an altogether separate reality not just from democrats but also republicans and i'm not sure we've right come to grips with the meaning of how a crazy man could become president of the united states and exercise such a hold over so many people in the republican party. >> right in the day or two after the election a couple things from morris probably on the

e-mail responding to others on the list with rejections of a win in pennsylvania 117,000 votes in michigan and by 147. a conservative activist specializing in think videos started to circulate a video of u.s. postal insider outlining abuses in pennsylvania, all of which would be debunked by federal investigators. , moderator trump operated started to tweak a rumor in arizona a large number of trump area ballots were being invalidated because of the use of sharpie markers which was untrue. the truth part was that the trump campaign had no idea what was going on, the campaign's grip on the numbers and structure for reporting, overall information management systems were as chaotic as any recent presidential history. this allowed a large range of outside and unfettered use into the mix and many founding giving prime to him. one of those was obviously rudy

giuliani, longtime associate of the president, how did rudy giuliani come back into b postelection in the white house? >> i think a lot of the people around the president, for one thing, they were always trying to get him out so that was one of the priorities the terms white house or the people who flip the president was to keep him out. they didn't trust him because, for a full array of regions was among them. his incredible disorganization, the fact that he would say almost anything the president wanted to hear. essentially is desperation to do anything to be back in the spotlight and many people blamed rudy giuliani for most of the

terrible things including the first impeachment of the president that happened in the trump administration so there was a real card, card posted to keep rudy out but a combination of factors mostly having to do with the fact that the president is always looking for someone to say what he wants to hear and at the end of the day after it had become clear to everyone around the president that he's lost the election, this was clear by the election tuesday by friday it was pretty much clear to everyone and at the end of the

day, there was only rudy willing to say to him no, mr. president, actually won the election and they have stolen it from your. about us how rudy came back into the white house. >> was the relationship between them today? >> rthey don't week. rudy is not even allowed to call the president so has happened multiple times over the last four years. rudy is allowed in, makes a mess and spent his pushed back out and as he wants money from the president so no matter who you are or how loyal you've been, how much in debt the president might be, his mood changes been.

>> let's go to gent in tennessee, independent line. >> i would like to say -- yes, i would like to say i agree with mr. wolf and i have a comment that i would like to say that donald trump started his presidency saint mexico what paper the walll in he was wrong about that so again he said he would just text them and he was wrong about that so he goes to healthcare and said he would repeal and replace obamacare and he was wrong about that. then he said could possibly pay it off. seriously wrong again. he said he would fit the trait

visit,de greater than ever and e was wrong about that. he said the virus was a hoax, wrong again. he said it would go away, he said obama was born in africa. he said obama didn't have a birth certificate.e. everything the guy has ever said was wrong. sanctions, trade work is wrong. thank you. >> any response? >> well, i agree with everything the caller pointed out but i think you have to understand the greater context which is that the president isay always just talking, he will say anything.

the president in a way, i'm tempted t' say, you can't really hold the president accountable for wrong things he says because he says whatever comes into his head, there is no thought there, no consideration, no analysis. we and certainly everyone around him just in his own voice. >> he said he wasn't interested in policy, power a trait throughout his career -- >> we are going to keep our commitment to congressional coverage and you can continue watching fist at c-span.org. u.s. senate is about to gavel and. lawmakers today will work on the

nomination tiffany cunningham to serve as judge in this battle circuit court of appeals, final folk cap for 5:30 p.m. and if approved, she would become first african-american to sit on that court. now lift to the floor of the u.s. senate here on c-span2. the presiding officer: the senate will come to order. the chaplain, dr. barry black, will lead the senate in prayer. the chaplain: let us pray. gracious god, of infinite goodness,