>> guilty from democrat jamie of maryland and fitzpatrick of pennsylvania, january 6, views from the house, sunday night at ten eastern on c-span and cspan.org awareness on c-span radio app. >> good morning ephrata director of the hudson center on monetary policy at the brookings institution a very pleased well, mark carney to a virtual stage today. extraordinary is an overused word but mark carney's career qualifies for sure in effect you look at his resume, you would think he was 96 years old. he was born and northwest territory in canada which among generally because google search turned up this official perseverance. that is under graduated from harvard in his seat phd from oxford and 13 years of staff and decade in the canadian government including five years

at the central bank of canada, and local financial crisis, then because that was unchallenging enough he became governor of the bank of england from 2013 - 2020 and during that whole brexit mess and he's an advisor now to the british prime minister on climate and even special invite for climate action in sedan and vice chair brookfield asset management, and future potential candidate the prime ministers should have canada and easily 66 and i'm not going to go more throughout his career. he thought it would only write one book is life and his new one which is called "values" building a better world for all is really several books in line. to history and a discussion of what markets can and cannot do well. and climate change what to do about it and leadership some the lessons on leadership and i'm probably one of the few people to read all 20 paragraphs the g7

finance communicate they came out over the weekend. and i think that mark carney's book has a background in almost every one of those 20 chapters were very happy to have you with us mark and if you want to ask a question, you can type it in two kearny valleys will try to get to some but that we would start with very provocative and interesting title of your book which is "values". and you talk about the tension between value, which is a market determined something or other. and values which has to do with our moral playing and i wonder if you could talk about will be trying to do by putting this together and what is that tell us about how we should run a society that is market driven but not market consoled. >> will thank you for having me and thanks to brookings for

putting on this event. really for all the good work that you do, huge consumer of the years and beneficiary over the decades so thank you so you and i, she 17 and i'm not sure anybody else for that but many people would be effective with this. it center on decisions of before actually will get to that predict in terms of the main thank you for going straight to the title because it's there because what i'm trying to get across the book is that between values and value goes in both directions on the one hand, if circumstances which and i am obviously simplifying this but in the run-up to the financial crisis, some of the underlying values and support market functioning at this is the point because it goes back to adam smith and think most political philosophers and in the end,

most markets would recognize that there's a rule for regulation but also a role for other institutions in the sense of douglas north which of the customs and rules in support of the market functioning but we lost some of that. there were other mistakes and regulations, we lost some of that in the balance is one of the contributing factors to the financial crisis. the relationship between value and values is a simplified would is the markets of society and the effort to bring in certain elements of activity whether it's charitable activities volunteering, and i can go on but bringing them into the system and in that process, giving on the activity, there can be a corrosion of values and incentives that was actually in that vein counterproductive.

that is not the core element of the book, it's an observation which i needed to complete this. the third aspect is when value can deliver societal values in other words market delivers societal values and really what i am getting at here is the example of sure will have a chance to talk about in terms of climate change and as we move out of a trade-off mentality which is almost bright into me as a policy maker and an economist to an irb of certain objectives which become a focal point and i argue that we are moving to the position now. the sustainability and then the market preferably informed with the right tools will be the driver of the solution. so value delivery by society. so yes the book, there's a lot of the book but it is trying to capture those elements an amazing experience of the crises that lived through another's of

course on this webinar would've been active participants as well as the course of the last ten - 15 years. david: to think that if you had to look at the needle, are we to first towards the market of the moral comparative. present also simple. mark: i think that we were in it lived through this as a policymaker we are definitely too far in the market through the crisis before the financial crisis. how is nara and i don't think it's an overstatement to say market in my perspective. were the answer to the market was generally to markets missing markets and again shorthand, to say that even though we had incomplete market some answer is market.

and the fundamental assumptions go underneath that perfect competition. which most of which don't exist in circumstances and you also had an is the real balance hurt for the policymaker believe that they would say that that telling of the market of the lessons of the market. and so, there was the approach and central banking. another light touch approaches regulation and other aspects that were there and what the reinsurance of the market must have for something like subprime is unlikely to one point was quite happen as close to much less of what happens if it does happen, what would we wish we had done in that event. so i think in that case, we definitely had the pendulum. and i think in the case of

something like sustainability, i sure that the issues with climate change for the product of tragedy of course. a market failure can be fixed by other factors so that is something were more comfortable with. i try to argue with years of their strategy over the horizon we are discounting the future quite heavily. and by the time but it's we get there, it will be too late printed how do we change that but in the end, that is a question of political, which is just society value sustainability and until we get to that moment, the market is not in service without value nor are regulators rated and make it into this but taking the opportunity to say this, we very

clearly did six years ago in setting up with mike bloomberg, as part of the processes. and climate related financial disclosure which standards to the companies to, not a, recommendation prayed for companies to disclose not just their current carbon footprint but what might they do about it pretty and that was just to provide information market to provide a transition because some people thought it was an issue as a people did not think it was an issue. some who thought it was an issue thought the government would act. and in the end and therefore ultimately end up in a reasonable horizon. now the shift as you go forward

to today, not to the same degree never country what is many many countries and a lot of them, they have to say no, we are going to move to a legislative objective and were in it carbon crisis and sitting here in carbon crisis, even though it is canadian dollars is a lot of money. so that's bringing forward the future so that we see that shift. in the very long way of answering your question in terms of the values of those values in the end are determined by society. and we have a process but if you do, finisher david and this is where i spent a lot of time with people are very focused on the environment and not surprisingly china my role predict they lean far too heavily in discounting the market and underestimate the power market if it is focused on

finding solutions to an issue. david: let me get back to climate change but i want to talk about the nature money. i particularly your thoughts on the fixation a lot of people have with crypto currencies and what the potential the risks are. another g-7 says that there warming up to the idea of central banks digital currency in the idea with assets and so forth and they seem to be really down on any rush to a global claims like facebook formally known as we run until we get a regulatory senso at this moment of crypto currency's perspective it for us. pretty think it's going in which we do to make sure is more positive than negative aspects. mark: i thought that was particularly eye-catching as well in the communicate. all aspects of that.

let's take a step back. what is the time of competing currencies facebook's efforts now called dm i guess instead of - which is a stable point. the ideas that crypto is back to a one - one by the underlying assets of the u.s. dollar is my point is one ideally, the way this is a key point. ideally not just treasuries, liabilities safe risk liability and that matches the majority of money. and i can think of one question without for the federal reserve really can't think of anywhere else but definition you have some mismatch. jim on the topic, history shows make of amsterdam be an example of the book, with the temptation is a bigger bigger with overtime

the private sector in the end was basically with bank of amsterdam plus. and ultimately how stable is that commitment. in 191600 predict and ultimately, they enough not just running mismatch but they landed to the company name people realize the bank of amsterdam was at risk when they work he pe - one. [inaudible]. so that is a real concern with mcclung but that that is one of the issues that in the end, we a new cfo new treasury and again as the money for nothing type of probe approach. in the end, why wouldn't you just have a central bank if you're going to have a stable point, why would have your own

stable coin is tokenized and there are other forms as well. the context of what is happening is that we have competition basically running around. suet series of crypto asset, varying degrees and focuses in various degrees of money or money not used as payment for some of the most interesting ones are those that are solely statistic payment system. so some of them are for wholesale finance and it getting efficiencies in their they're doing in the way this is a role predict lisa legitimate? for legitimate possibility should i say to continue to play a role. and some are trying to pay that

role cross-border and i think in the end they solve that issue that we will see. and simon a has to be said, we see these example in recent weeks like that coin, it's definite payment system, and read somewhere and it literally, walt. [inaudible]. so, anyway, you get the point. these are questions of the value with a lot of money and we need something that is resilient and transparent and it also needs the key point an adjustment mechanism read so that really shares the burdens of the gold standard and we talk about the gold standard in the book and now that i know it was ultimately fell by too much weight of the labor in the end and you put all of the weight

that is always been one of the risks and euro as well. so what do i think that is headed. central bank digital currency more likely to be account basin token -based predict and likely hopefully i should say it may those central bank digital proceeds will be efficiencies a cross-border in the linkages cross-border payments will come down. most people won't see the cdc because they'll see the wallet from a bank protect company. and that's how their interactions will work and will still have a lot of inside money, creation by those private finance institutions which will be indistinguishable from the cdc. but we probably will be in parallel some private monies or currencies for specific applications that are legitimate payment systems that are used by a set of users and it will have

to be established there. david: 's own account pay central bank digital currency but not have an account per se. in the bank will have it is sensually digital account. mark: exactly. and the local or what will be interesting is the banks that will have those accounts and by the way more confident this will happen in uk and other places maybe i shouldn't speak for the fact but it could be, looking could be the instagram wallet. it could be a film tech company wallet for somebody it has consumer racing they need to have that software as well. so just across the accounts there's no settlement risk, just across the account. and in this case the banking. david: in the advantage of that is in competition. mark: insufficiency, it is as i

understand i am not the one doing the programming but it is ultimately potentially programmable played for smart contract and other applications which are potentially very attractive and contingent to the contract in effect potentially proficiencies to the system although there is still like much in this area, it could be. david: solar be currency potentially and a decade or two pretty. mark: people you know and and you're suggesting younger than i am i am 56. but i don't want people to always carry cash so i always said that when i was governor and the okay, we will continue to produce banknotes as long as people want them and i think that we have few decades where

will be residual. david: so let's turn to climate. in your basic argument is that if we are serious about resisting climate change anything we are increasingly serious about it that there is a growing political consensus that doing nothing or as little as we have done so far would be a huge mistake and it just sort of disservice to our children and grandchildren your basic argument if i get right is that you want to bring climate risk and resilience into the heart of financial decision-making. so tell me how that happens, how do you get companies and banks and insurance companies and consumers to fully internalize the cost of our behavior which is contributing to fossil fuels. mark: so one of the keys

organizing principles for this is net zero. so what is happened with climate change this is what is been understood as for a long time that we can stabilize the temperature whether it is a stretch of one and a half degrees or maybe even 3 degrees. you can stabilize it until we get to net zero gas emissions. all shorthand that two carbon emissions. david: can you define what nonzero means prey to. mark: so that zero means that the emissions, admissions that exist because of human well lots of human activity and agriculture or other activities, far removed from the atmosphere so there is some net process and into obvious net processes are that one is force while they are growing, and when to get to that

wash and carbon captures in storage of some form. those are the two obvious ways so you better get those emissions way down in order to be able to net out whatever you are still doing. and the temperature is the physics of it the consumption of the stock of carbon in the atmosphere rated so in organizing now to net zero is a hundred and 30 countries and counting. and that zeros are ejected, can't on the climate in november, continuing to increase in u.s. has joined and china has made its commitment. try to get a few other emerging economies in there. so 70 percent global emissions of organized net zero. so then that rolls down to if you are company or financial institution, the question is you operate in these jurisdictions, what is your plan for net zero.

now you can have a plan which is my plan is that while there are three options and one is i don't have a plan because i don't think the government policy is credible or it will actually happen. that is an option. maybe some issues with stakeholders and employees you may be surprised but that's an option in the second is that i don't think that i can get to net zero or the industry to net zero and i am going to put that off. most people will choose that option that you could legitimately. and all defeat certain activities over 15 or 20 years. that's an option which some companies are thinking as i'm committing to net zero by 2016 on putting in place a plan so that by 2030 i will be at this point and scenario moving into financial systems pretty is getting that information to get

these it's not the same as the net zero but it's related. and it have this information are judging companies in terms of whether they are likely or do they have a plan, are they likely to succeed with this plan. are they going to be competitive in a world that is moving to net zero if not arising on the carbon and environmental regulations and more and more competition from low carbon technologies in their area. and then that is a decision, and influence on company values. not just in the extremes. versus colin heavy oil but on the plate down to the very inch of the core so that is what is happening now. and for those who may not at president biden in april was an announcement of a new alliance which is the core of the

financial system the major banks and insurers and pension funds and etc. and run the world, 160 of them and $70 billion of assets which even for rookies in the u.s. and the huge amount of money. committing to net zero and committing to have their own plans and manage their balance sheets that way. and my point if i may, there's lots of different ways to fill these scenarios and the stress test and other things to make this tangible. but what is critical in the system is that the intentions of their transition sooner the worse, incentives are there so that i'll invest in a company who may have high emissions today they might even go up for the next few years but by lending and investing and giving them capitol, that those emissions are going to come down

over time and avoid we want to avoid is when the surface satisfying sort of binary approach which is brain assets and there's brown assets pretty and get rid of all of the ground and just go to the greenwald@transition. as for the wholesale investment and get us to where we need to go because we need to steal companies to make a big investment we need to automakers and on and on. to the point of capitol so the core system gets the emissions down printed. david: let me pick up on that is when i noted on twitter that i was would be talking to you i got some people that i think you heard from yourself companies like brookfield where you involved in a lot of investing. and it's also investing in fossil pipelines and stuff so what is the role the big

institutional investor. you suggesting not investing in fossil is a mistake because it doesn't give them that resources for the transition pretty. mark: so brookfield, is one of part of the 3,600,000,000,000 to the 70 trillion levels really got him to predict summer asset managers it was a large alternative asset manager. so what we doing is that we have are we map our footprint with developing decarbonization plans across all our assets we have a specific strategy which i'm very much participating in which is to help accelerate the transition for companies, on the strategy but we are also suggesting overall footprint as i say, building assessment to be clear, brookfield, one of the

biggest power generators in the world. over 20 gigawatts of power over four continents. and also in production and that's london and paris or chicago new york in terms of scale generation, huge amount. and here's the key thing that i will say about brookfield is that when we own pipeline infrastructure for example, so the judgment is about what is a terminal value of the pipelines. so hello mr. likely to be natural gas through these pipelines pretty other option valleys for that asset to be converted to hydrogen for some sort of hydrogen plan is so it's like is another opportunity. i would say less than, that sort of thinking has not been mainstream in the capitol market but is moving from mainstream

quite quickly. which is going to enhance the value and infrastructure assets because they have lost value or because the way to beat longer lives or because ten jurisdictions were at the lowest carbon solutions for a period of time or one of the lowest carbon solutions and or it can be extended for other reasons. so just to finish, this simplistic thing which is what were trying to avoid is to say that's hypocritical. it's not, is an energy transition, we have to make judgments, brookfield does need to make different judgments about what works where and we could be wrong, the transition could happen sooner. we are grown-ups and we can get more right than wrong and will

do with it accordingly. david: sue speaking to us today you mentioned canada has been to put a price on carbon in the u.s. hasn't and it doesn't seem to be imminent. it's not going to create issues and be difficult for canadians to feel like this is great, we are doing our part in the u.s. is getting a free ride and going to be part of this. mark: so yes, the issue of the carbon is that in the trade policies and your questions suggested david, this judgment of and it can be often expressed in terms of canada and the u.s. or canada u.s. and china in terms of the emissions. i think that maybe all answered in terms of how we think trade

policy not go on this issue. but the first is the relatively small group of tradable products which this is a big issue so carbon is a big proponent of the value added but pretty politically motivated one of the classic example. the second thing is that so what is being openly talked about here is the mechanisms, the president has mentioned that the europeans are launching initiatives the canadians talk about it. one of the challenges to be compliant with this is the easy way to do it is based on carbon. i because you can look, at this price it clearly when the u.s. does not a price, they move into a world of shadow carbon pricing

which is part of the math. sequined leader mike mission standards. so there is that in the other is run product standard rated so carbon component for steel, has to be of a certain quality. that is my personal view and i think that it's kind of over the next several years is more likely to land on the product standard side nonexclusively because the u.s. then have a carbon prices are likely to have one in the foreseeable future despite all of the economic benefits of going down that route. david: i have to say that this deal was made in the way that is a limited amount of carbon emissions. mark: and the thing is that

actually would be just as an assertion, the ability to measure as part of the disclosures is that the ability to map that. not even in the steelmaking process but from the power provided in the carbon being delivered to steal two ports here. david: what about china and india. it's often raised they can't fix this problem without them and they say, all right, you used up all of the carbon capacity now you realize in a now you want to read this attorneys talk a good game. are there other issues and we talked to them, how do you explain to them and have you read. are they serious about this and how do they play in this world. mark: she's your dancer the

second, incredibly important printed precise of even. they have a hundred 95 countries, equivalent and some are more equal than others and obviously the u.s. and e.u. and china, canada clearly. [laughter] hello i read them. i would say the chinese are a couple of things about the chinese, one is that pretty explicitly taken the view that low carbon industries are leaders that has low carbon is a fundamental driver of competitiveness. the big economic motivation to the request towards it and then i think is not been lost on other major economic powers. okay, so this is reinforcing the

market in some respects, they competitive in a surround industry of the future. in the second-biggest the chinese look, the chinese just started to shift so at the biden summit they said they will peak in the: 2025 and manage that and it is all to be clear but it is that impression on coal. in the latter half of this decade it which is the key. in the objective is in advanced economies by 2030 and in 2040 emerging economy so the extent to which the carbon budget can work his an element of growth and tailing off. in the chinese are as you know big into solar and biggest own

solar and electric vehicles in a series of other things. we collectively have a strategic issue around these essential for these applications. so the development of alternatives is critical including in canada. canada is part of the solution but it's an expensive part of the solution. the collective, we need to think that through. but on, i think the china, could get it wrong but i think that also increasingly de- central to the solution. i think india is more straightforward. couple complicated place to govern. clearly the thought is winners formalized remains to be seen. at the scale of ambition our site is enormous is one of the most attractive growth

opportunities. and i think that, i'm pretty appeasement india in terms of what actually will happen on the ground. the economics of the number of solutions have shifted. i have left this issue very late so the scale of what needs to be done is enormous. you can pick canada, we have huge changes that have to happen. and that is true for virtually every country. david: is a question sometimes about the role of central banks with this issue. and you pointed out that in the uk, bank of england has broad supervisory responsibility including from insurance companies which of course the

federal reserve is untapped. and the european central bank is maybe that they should be greening their portfolio on purchases when they do things like quantitative readings that seem to give the people at the federal reserve the shivers. so how would you describe, i think the role of central bank as a financial supervisor in a serious pretty straightforward. it's institutions are taking risks, they don't fully understand, is the role of the supervisors to point that out. that is the easy part pretty so when you get to think like green bond portfolios, do you think that is a step too far be think that isn't important issue that we have to use every tool we have. c1 so i think you have summarized it well. and for those who don't follow this on a daily basis some might not, the bank of england

received my successors received three letters. a couple of months ago, he was said that the financial policy committee financial facility committee and the credentials supervisory committee to climate change into account. it is all consistent with the legal framework. so secondary or supplementary per capita. and with that bank of england is doing is now in my speaking i would recommend if people are interested to see that on the website in the last few weeks they have been met with a discussion paper consultation paper on how they made the bond purchase program to take climate change into account. and about 60 percent in the farmers market but obviously the central bank and it could have or set a standard effective standard and how they view things. this is the kind of thing you

should do because this is, if you're just like the current government policy in the uk is legislative, so you also have to take it into account. now moving over to the u.s. where is the government's policy. there is not this panic of regular letters the treasury secretary to the sub chair. and the principal in general and as well as with federal is market neutrality. we go to the market you try, across the curve sue not disturbing the pricing discovery picture getting a portfolio balance back on point. were you by or related collateral never credit standard within one to me that credit standard for that collateral so this is putting another one on

top of it. it's another layer. which, my personal view is that you need that neutrality and the bank of england it has and the master treaty and the requirement for them to take into account, the core of policies and forget the exact language but it's pretty well printed legally. i can assure you that there's a number of lawyers to look through these things. in the constitutional court will also be looking at it. so those, my read is that the. [inaudible]. but my read is for the family so you're going to end up with different central banks doing different things. and they are all right, the product and what they are doing. it is the nature of the institution.

i do think by the way, i do think that some of the some people around this is quite poorly informed in this as well. the makes really the bank of england or the responsibilities. in the bank of england couldn't be more clear. in the science. david: somebody from canada said how do we operate your recommendations and deeper values in our economic decision-making fighting you made the point that when the societies decided to do something, then the market is a good way right way to make it happen. but the predicate is that society has to decide that the values are important enough and i think the question is asking is highly make sure that policymakers in society do that. mark: so that's the reason this

book is so long, is clearly you know, she go to chapter 16 which goes to the country policies, the leadership chapter and other aspects is these are examples of how you do it. so let me get three quick ones. so we've gone over some but solely look at the values imported from the market functioning in some of the responsibility the senior managers. when responsibility not just to themselves but for their institution and for the system. in the book goes through this, you have the lining of the compensation up with holding back bonuses and making those bonuses and under what circumstances will we get into that on that front. but something like the senior managers regime where i'm explicitly responsible are not responsible for everything that comes from the people of those

who work for me but that i do train them and give them the tools. and if i don't do that in the uk, on the hook for that. the responsibility and in terms of sustainability, part of the way that we do it apart from countries setting up objectives, the climate stress analysis and supervisory requirements increased at the financial institutions and they get to the thinking that senior managers there as a board member, what does my portfolio look like in the contrast of what it does not want to do. it would just get to net hero. i want to take that risk but i need to be informed of that risk. and nobody does that answer a few years ago. and don't make their own decision. then resilience and i will stop here which is another one of the values in the book emphasizes and be honest, other important values which is something i said

earlier which is and this is maybe a little bit more for public officials, getting into the habit of planning for failure. do not spend the whole time tell yourself the cyber attack will get through, think about what you do in the event that large bank is frozen for periods of time. because of a successful cyber attack and how we keep the system functioning what is a backup and what you do in the case pretty and countless other examples but that is part of the role of the resilience and and so some of it, these are examples basically of how you embed it it is more around pulling hands of just saying, let's be better people and things will get better. the book is anything but that. and just to be clear, in the end these are values for longer-term economic prosperity. i'm an economist after all.

david: and the economist and maker central hat on for a moment. i think there's concern around the world a particular here that we had a very aggressive discipline monetary response to the pandemic. we have worked out extraordinarily well and the forecasted people were making in march of 2020, and where we are today and i was job well done. and not only here, but now there is growing angst that may be this was a little too much that we are at risk of inflation if beyond our objectives is to wonder how you look at the world of inflation vertically given the uec with the fiscal monetary here. mark: book, i think that the prospect is the last month and

very short-term where the transitory factors that pushed things up. and then focused on the horizon for the policy read and i think there are signs that inflation will be above target over the horizon from here so if you would drop into run this david, next week and you are looking forward to, there are signs the labor market signs in terms of supply shortages and other things. it's a little bit more than short-term and also reasonable reason to expect sustained momentum. because it's right in front of

our face. the uncertainties of the covid-19 variance in all of that rated but the prospect of being above target for longer than the makeup of the past term, i think the balance of this is headed in that direction. and will sort of lapse into the central bank think. david: i'll put you down and if you decided to add for the federal reserve to central bank revenue will put you on that side of the spectrum. in markey, one of the things that struck me as i read the book is it's comforting because you describe some ways and you did this earlier in our conversation, ways that we could have the values in our

economic decision making in ways that do not require a false or give up electricity or stop altogether predict you describe how we can get from here but they are and you made the point earlier that it's going be hard because we waited too long but you know, when you look at the political system in the united states, when you look at the polarization here when you look at with that uk is been through and when you look at the rise of the populist in france and in germany, and when you look at the israeli democracy, i just wonder how you reconcile your relatively upbeat view that sounded well-meaning, thoughtful policymakers can get us to a better place. the political system that seems determined to prevent that from happening. mark: yeah, well a couple of

suggestions on the specific issues which is first, it is put a premium on measures to the green measures the measures that have immediate payback in terms of jobs and economic growth. so hi multiplier predict some obvious point. so there is worth repeating. you know one of the simplest things to do certainly in the uk is you. [inaudible]. like here in washington, but leak out into the place like incredible soda desire and all of that and then actually the material contributed to the right actions as you point to the amount of people covers the whole country and has all of those benefits and there's a series of industries again as

you say on the renewable side one industry which has high multipliers particularly in some of the less advantaged northeast basically parts. you do those things early that have benefits tangible benefits to create jobs in your like this is what this is about and as you say your writing around the same class with the rest. in parallel what you want to do is this the hard part, because of the political dynamics, for this to be credible which is that you have a whale path for regulation down the road. so the advantage in the uk is saying that there's no combustion engine cars thereafter 2030 is actually credible and investment in the

uk plans and other things. one of the big decisions i think and the biden administration is what is the equivalent of that, somebody b2030 but is it 2035 or 2040 or is it not that explicit. the fact it seems like and now gm and ford has got the message now predict if you do anything further outcome of that but then again today, it is credible again i sound like - but it's something that i worked on. before she found something better to do. [laughter] [inaudible]. you're going to have to rely on this is going to sound risky but it is risky, then actually there is tangible payoffs to these measures. and i think the last boy to may, would be interesting and let's just say just for the purposes of the discussion, a change in

the u.s. administration with kino more skeptical end of the republican party let's say, they run the presidency. if the facts on the ground are increasingly in here to this, maybe more policy and maybe by that point but that will be in my head as the benevolence of payback at that point. so the benefit of continuing in the last point, about china, this is one of the competitions points with china which is no question. and i will suggest it will be his biggest digital both from in general, both from economic opportunity but from a geostrategic influence perspective read so we will see.

david: i guess i am asking you a different question. you will governor the bank of england in the uk. and you are very outspoken and you about why in the book about what was the economic risk the president was running through the european union as you say, you were ready or need any custom grief for speaking out. yet, despite this not be a great idea, the british government the current british government has certainly upheld a part of the bargain predict so am just wondering, have you no doubts about the ability of the democracy to do this. mark: i definitely do. i was trying to give you half that i start from the position

of the promise of yr questions exactly right. there's risk of the shift. and it depends on the jurisdiction. for example in canada, 75 percent or maybe 70 percent, to be more precise of the votes in the last several elections for both parties that were aggressive on climate are more aggressive on climate than the current government. that is a pretty big consensus. things are being legislated instead of proposed of being policies. and as i just said, even more so in the uk and in europe. and of course if your politician, giving people what they really want which is jobs and progress rated and that is your job in the u.s. is not, not in that position. it's a risk and also on climate.

it does matter, look i guess the way that i would put it to bring it back to what i write in the book is there is a value in the book which is sort of markets and runs and prosperity. and unless you're delivering that sustainability, you're not going to get to where you want. ... ... sustainable and all sense like it's flatlining growth.

so i wonder if you could and, if you have to draw a couple of conclusions from your chapter on leadership to people who are young or aspiring leaders, their the most important lessons you've learned in your incredibly important role. >> i think -- i've mentioned earlier, one is humility and the nature of the rules and central banking we look at the glass half empty a lot, my job was to think about what could go wrong and prepare for so that aspect of humility in the more positive aspect of humility which is, i certainly had a lot of good ones where i ended up, we had more

good fortune so don't take yourself that seriously and remember your possibility is to improve the place and deliver better. as a basic place, increasingly understood as a leader you are setting roles and catalyzing actions but you're not getting the way to people follow is to be fully engaged in how to solve the issue so it's not just about having diverse voices, it's an inclusive process, they are really part of making a decision and feel they've been heard it even if the decision because it doesn't go their way, they understand and get behind it. that is a learned skill, may be inherent for some people, something i learned over time but it's really important to be

able to do that and it does take more time sort of leadership but far more effective over time and more satisfying. >> thank you, that's fascinating and i appreciate your time. if we were meeting in person, i would hold up your book. i only have it on kindle so i can't hold it up but as i said, it's almost an encyclopedia i think there are individual chapters i'll go back and read when these are in the news which makes it a valuable resource thank you for your time and look forward to your next time. ♪♪ >> weekends on c-span2 every saturday events and people who explore our nation's past un-american history tv on sunday

book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors, television for serious readers. learn, discover, explore. weekends on c-span2. ♪♪ >> charles dickens is credited with creating some of the world's best-known fictional characters. over 2000 scattered throughout 14 and a half published novels. american authors, journalists and politicians often refer to situations as being the keynesian. a professor at roehampton university in london published three books on charles dickens, the most recent title a very short introduction by oxford press. we asked professor to tell us about dickens life and accomplishments including two

trips to the united states in 1842 and 1867. >> author on this episode of book note plus listen at c-span.org/podcast or wherever you get your podcast. ♪♪ >> it's my distinct pleasure to welcome you all to the official launch of my colleague jonathan levy's new book, asians of american. just out with penguin rank and rented house penguin random house. he authors a new perspective on american political economy, american capitalism teaches familiar landmarks of american history in new ways. settlements, market revolution, industrialization, the great